Hi,

There is an interesting comment on this thread from a mod regarding the ownership of information and postings placed on MSFN.



Can someone please point me to where this assertion of copyright is made publicly and what law or statue (presumably international) which allows such a claim to made?

If I have the copywrite to something and chose to post it here then I still hold the copywrite. Nothing has changed with regards to the ownership of the material.

It is simply being reproduced here, nothing is implied about the status of that material unless a copywrite statement is also posted with it.

The best you might be able to claim is that the posting itself is the "property" of MSFN but it's content may (and very probably) is NOT the property of MSFN.

This mod seems to be stating that everything posted here belongs to MSFN and the community via some undisclosed mechanism or placed in the public domain.

Can someone please clarify the situation here?

Kind Regards

Simon

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Hope this help.

Hi,

Thanks for that however that reply does not appear to contain one piece of useful information related to my original post.

Anyone else care to give a relevant response?

Should I just assume that the mod I quote in my OP was not speaking with the official voice of MSFN and basically doesn't know what they are talking about?

Kind Regards

Simon

Okay, there we go:

This board is an international board, laws are hard to apply so we made rules: it’s up to the staff to do with the information posted or in any other way made publicity here on the site.

Just the simple way to put it.

We could make a whole bookwork about laws and right, and properly we should when you enter the site and become a member. If you have any advice we would be pleased to hear this from you.


No, that’s just his approach, and he knows where he’s talking about. The fault that has been made in that topic is that communication should have gone by PMs, not in public on the board.

Rules (now also seen as guidelines, and will be changed in rules):

Hi,

I was not questioning the fact or the details of the moderation of that specific thread.

I was specifically asking about the comments the mod published regarding the ownership of the information and materials posted on MSFN and the board.

Someone senior in the MSFN world should be looking into this issue because it could become important.

As an example, if MSFN were sold to some third-party then would the messages stored on the message board form part of the sale? I suspect they would and therefore be considered an asset and be worth something.

However the vast majority of the post were not made by persons connected with MSFN but by others who would still have the copyright on them.

So, does MSFN own the posts?

Probably not given there seems to be nothing regarding this in the MSFN rules or agreement. Each post would appear to be owned by the person who posted it.

They almost certainly do not own the copyright on them unless the copyright holder has transferred this to MSFN.

To claim otherwise could be a breach of international law and the relevant laws for where the MSFN servers are located.

Kind Regards

Simon

So, by alternating a post you are saying we are breaking the law?

Please fill us in on this, could you post the international laws that could apply on this forum please?

OMG What a _____________ hey please quit trying to cause trouble.

It fairly clearly states we have the ability to modify and can do so at will whenever we feel nessecary.

This breaks no US laws as we reserve the right to refuse service.

Also this breaks no international laws as you agreed to them when you clicked the little box...

Isn't the definition of a moderator someone who moderates the forum, and wouldn't modifying posts as necessary fall under that category?

You're mixing up two very different things here... ownership and copyright are different topics.

The post that you make is stored on MSFN servers, paid for by MSFN staff (specifically xper). Therefore, the bits and bytes that comprise a post are the property of MSFN.

The content of the post (and whatever intellectual property that it contains) are the property of the poster (as per copyright laws). MSFN reserves the right to edit a post if it conflicts with the Forum Rules (you gave us that right when registering). MSFN also holds the right to edit the forum rules at any time.

I'm not sure how much more simple it gets.

WOOHOO! And that's a quote from Zxian, so there's the answer; "intellectual rights" are defended.

May get deleted, but there musta been a reason; may get modified, so complain to the "editor", otherwise don't post "property" if you don't want it modified away from your original version. After all, this is a free and open board. I don't think anyone (MSFN) wants to "steal" anything from you.

If you don't want to "give it away", don't! If you want to "sell it", put it somewhere else...

I got no complaints; just here to get help and to give it (if possible). I see no "ownership" in anything I put here, or I'd put in on my own "server" and accept "Pay Pal".

("Depends on what your defintion of IS is"... we're splitting hairs!)

Nice explanation, Zxian! This is a sticky subject that most online ventures wrestle with. Being part of an international community has challenges.

Just as a side note, my post stated "The post does not belong to you, it belongs to the MSFN administration and community" and as shown above is correct.

If you look at the reason for my response in context you will see that it is given because the post originator due to not liking actions taken against them decided that the post should now be deleted. Although they have some semblence of ownership of the post content, they do not have control over topic deletion. There are official methods for requesting these things and had they used one of those methods without being rude I'd have done so without question.

Hi Kelsenellenelvian,



Dude, calm down and take a chill pill. I am not causing trouble but bring to someone's attention a possible issue that needs to be addressed.



I am not questioning the terms and conditions of the site, the service it offers, or the right of MSFN to refuse service to anyone as it seems fit. These comments are therefore unnecessary and irrelevant to the point I am attempting to make.

I am attempting to clarify what appears to be a misconception that MSFN owns the posts and has the right to do what it like with the information contained within them. I am afraid it doesn't and to claim otherwise is false.



As you don't seem to be aware of the fact, a contract cannot give you the right to break the law. This is so basic that I am surprised I have to make this clear.

If this were not the case then the law would be meaningless as any contract anywhere could in effect reverse a particular law. For example, you would have the right to end someone's life because they signed a contract that said you could do this. This is clearly not the case.

In many countries contracts can also be deemed to be unfair (and null and void) if they contain terms or conditions which are clearly difficult or impossible to fulfil or basically plain daft.

Kind Regards

Simon

@ PsiMoon314

I'm sorry, but I fail to see where you're going with your side of this discussion.

You Started a topic whereby you've changed the terms used `belongs to` meaning, in the context it was taken, `to be part of/a member of something larger` and made it appear to mean `being an owner, possessing or having a legal right to possession of something` for your own purpose.

Could you please explain exactly what you feel this forum has no rights to do with the posts of its members and try to give reasons for them.

Thank you.

@ PsiMoon314,

Please answer my two questions too.

If you did made this topic just to get attention then you did well, but just tell us if you want some thing out of it, or to help us.

MSFN cannot be held liable for any damage to physical or intellectual property. MSFN is not responsible for posts, comments or views of our members. All posts and comments remain the copyright of the posters. MSFN reserves the right to edit, delete or move posts made on this site.

Man, we started back in 2001 and never had any issue about copyright. Hope this clear this "issue" out.

Actually, my explaination sums it up perfectly. MSFN does not have the right to redistribute the material under our own name/brand, but we have every right to edit the content of the posts as per the forum rules and registration agreement.

Nobody's talking about breaking any laws, and MSFN has not broken any laws regarding this matter.

It depends on the law, and on the nature of the contract. In your example, the contract that was signed gives evidence of assisting someone in suicide (that's the view that would be taken in Canada at the least), and the person still living would be persecuted as such.


EDIT - As a further note, I'll give an example of something even more pressing that I face every day. I'm currently a master's student at the University of British Columbia. I have been employed in a research lab here on campus, and my employment contract clearly states that any intelectual property that I develop while employed is the property of the research lab, and therefore the university. This is perfectly acceptable under Canadian and American copyright laws, and gives a perfect example of how a contract can be used to transfer the rights of IP.

Hi Zxian,

Indeed I have worked under such contracts as well regarding the transfer of IP to my employers. I don't like them personally but sometimes is unavoidable.

However I don't believe that there is any such term in the conditions of use for MSFN. I am therefore guessing that any IP members might generate would still belong to them?

Anyway it's becoming clear that many of you are thinking I am just picking a fight or causing trouble so lets leave the issue there.

The issue can be discussed by whom ever whats to and you can come you what ever conclusions you wish to come to.

If you wish to amend the terms of use of MSFN then just let everyone know what the new terms are.

As a suggestion perhaps this issue has been worked on before and I would guess that the EFF might be able to offer help and advice on this matter, probably for free

For those of you who wish to start learning about copyright then I would suggest that the following articles might give you the outline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

The most directly relevant International Treaty would appear to be the Berne Convention which is covered by this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convent..._Artistic_Works

Basically it's tricky stuff and you do need to take care when dealing with it.

I will send an e-mail to the EFF and see what they have to say about this issue.

Kind Regards

Simon

I'm not suggesting that you're picking a fight, you have however deliberately changed the meaning of what was said in order to begin a debate.

The only fight now lies with getting you to answer any of our questions or substantiate any of your comments. It appears to me that you cannot do so and will therefore 'leave the issue there'

As a responsible and well known international forum, if we are breaking any laws, which you've suggested we have, then please tell us what they are, we'll take a look and make any required ammendments to our system of work.

I just 'read' that single-post thread in question and couldn't help laughing out loud . Not only is it utterly confusing because of poor English, multiple unrelated questions raised simultaneously and a blatant lack of logical reasoning. But also must it have been sheer unreadable before Yzowl's radical pruning measures took place.

Therefore it is the worst possible starting point for a discussion about intellectual property or moderators' rights - let alone international law.

You, PsiMoon314, chose to defend a perceived victim of copyright infringment - but at the same time you couldn't bring yourself to posting a reply to the single-post thread you took as the foundation of your argument.

For that reason I, too, question your motivation behind opening this thread. You have no intention of making msfn a more informative or law-abiding place. You simply want to pass time arguing with the higher-ups because you secretly envy them for the privileges they enjoy.

Agree and topic closed.