MSFN Forums > SAV 9 - Symantec AntiVirus 9.0

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prathapml

Aug 10 2004, 07:14 PM

could we have a detailed article on how to install/pre-configure SAV 9.0?

And also, about how to have the updated patches and anti-virus definitions merged into install source?

I'm sure many of you have done this before successfully. Please consider taking up the above request.

Update: here's a good, and confirmed to work properly, guide - made by mazin.

QUOTE

Guide for SAV's AIP

Before you use this guide, make sure SAV isn't installed on your system. Otherwise, you'll get errors when creating the Administrative Installation Point.

Create a folder anywhere on your hard disk and name it whatever you like. I'll assume you name it "SAVSource".

Copy the following files into "SAVSource":

1- 0x0409.ini (for French version, you need 0x040c.ini, instead)
2- Setup.ini
3- setup.exe
4- Data1.cab
5- Symantec AntiVirus.msi

Those 5 files are copied from your CD (of version 9.0.0.338), of course.

6- SAVCE_9.0.0.1400_AllWin_EN .msp

This file is extracted from SAVCE_9.0.0_mp2.zip (3 MB) downloadable from here.
(for French version, you download this, instead.)

7- yyyymmdd-###-i32.exe

It's usually 5+ MB in size and can be downloaded from here. The file I'm using in this guide is named 20040828-003-i32.exe!
(for French version, you start here, instead.)

8- lusetup.exe

It's 2.5+ MB in size and can be downloaded from here.

9- remote.cmd

The following quote shows the contents of remote.cmd!

QUOTE

cls
@echo off
ECHO Creating AIP
start /wait setup.exe /A /V"/QB TARGETDIR=%systemdrive%\SAV91400"

sleep 30
copy lusetup.exe %systemdrive%\SAV91400\CommonAppData\Symantec\LiveUpdate\LuMMInst\Lsetup.exe
ECHO Patching AIP
copy "SAVCE_9.0.0.1400_AllWin_EN .msp" %systemdrive%\SAV91400\savce1400.msp
start /wait msiexec /p %systemdrive%\SAV91400\savce1400.msp /a "%systemdrive%\SAV91400\Symantec AntiVirus.msi" /QB
del %systemdrive%\SAV91400\savce1400.msp
ren "%systemdrive%\SAV91400\Symantec AntiVirus.msi" SAV.msi
ECHO Updating AIP Virus Definitions
attrib -r "%systemdrive%\SAV91400\program files\Symantec AntiVirus\Virus Defs\*.*"
start /wait 20040828-003-i32.exe /Extract /Q "%systemdrive%\SAV91400\program files\Symantec AntiVirus\Virus Defs"
exit

Before you run remote.cmd, make sure you put sleep.exe in your system32 or Windows folder.
After remote.cmd exits, you should have your AIP created (ready steady) as a folder in your system drive and named SAV91400.
Now, delete "SAVSource" folder, as it's no longer needed.

To install SAV using your AIP, add these lines to your batch file:

QUOTE

ECHO SAV 9.0.0.1400 V.Defs updated 28.8.2004
start /wait %systemdrive%\Install\SAV91400\SAV.msi /QB RUNLIVEUPDATE=0 REBOOT=ReallySuppress

Moezy

Aug 11 2004, 02:45 AM

I would like to know as well please.

Bâshrat the Sneaky

Aug 11 2004, 03:06 AM

How to install it can you find in this topic:

Direct from the CD:
MSI_FAQ.txt

CODE

******************************************************************************
Symantec AntiVirus Corporate Edition 9.0 MSI_FAQ.TXT
Copyright 2004 Symantec Corporation. All rights reserved. March 2004
******************************************************************************

This file is a list of the most commonly used MSI commands for Symantec
AntiVirus and Symantec Client Security. For a complete list of commands,
properties, and features, see the Symantec Knowledge Base.

BASIC MSI commands
------------------
/QN - Quiet No UI
/QB - Quiet Basic UI
/L*V log.txt - full verbose logging to file log.txt

BASIC MSI properties
--------------------
REBOOT=REALLYSUPPRESS

SAV properties
--------------
INSTALLSERVER= (1 = Server, 0 = Client, Default is client)
    SERVERGROUPNAME= (New or prexisting servergroup)
    SERVERGROUPPASS= (New or prexisting servergroup password. The default
is symantec)

NETWORKTYPE= (1 = Managed, 2 = Unmanaged, default is Unmanaged)
    SERVERNAME= (preexisting SAV Servergroup)

RUNLIVEUPDATE= (run LiveUpdate during install = 1, do not run LiveUpdate=0,
default is On)

ENABLEAUTOPROTECT= (1 = ON, 0 = OFF, default is On)

INSTALLDIR= (Install target directory, default is C:\Program Files\
Symantec AntiVirus)

SERVERPARENT= (e.g. SERVERPARENT=MySavServer)
Note: For a secondary server silent install from the command line, you must
set the SERVERPARENT property to the Parent server computer name. When doing
a UI or Symantec System Center rollout install, setting this property is not
required.

SAV features
------------
EMailTools
NotesSnapin
OutlookSnapin
Pop3Smtp
QClient
SAVHelp
SAVUI

Adding and removing features
----------------------------
To remove existing features:

REMOVE=<feature1>,<feature2>,<feature3>

To add new features:

ADDLOCAL=<feature1>,<feature2>,<feature3>, <existing feature 1>,
<existing feature 2>, etc.

Note: When adding new features using ADDLOCAL, any existing features on the
target computer that you want to retain must be included in the features that
you are specifying. The installation will remove any features on the target
computer that are not listed.

Command line example
--------------------
This example demonstrates a silent Symantec AntiVirus Server installation.
The server is named MYSAVSERVER and uses the password MYSAVPASSWORD.
LiveUpdate is not run, and the server is not restarted even if its required.

Sample command line:
setup /s /v"/l*v log.txt INSTALLSERVER=1 SERVERGROUPNAME=MYSAVSERVER
SERVERGROUPPASS=MYSAVPASSWORD RUNLIVEUPDATE=0 REBOOT=REALLYSUPPRESS"

The best way to install newest updates is this one in my opinion.
And you can download the newest updates here

But like this it won't be 'merged' into source, but at least it's easy maintainable. (Which is more important IMHO)

Mei

Aug 11 2004, 03:34 AM

Actually, I've used the informations contained in the MSI_FAQ.txt in order to have a silent Installation, but it crashes with error... I have to recheck my commandline.

A patch exists for SAV9, but it is in .MSP format, so I don't now how to install it. Maybe we can slipstream it... I need help for this

Here is the link : http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/enterpris..._9.0/files.html

For the virus definition, simple download the lastest Symantec Security Responce Intelligent Updater and run it with the /Q- switch. (downland the x86 and not the i32 version)
Here is the link : http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcen...s.download.html

prathapml

Aug 11 2004, 05:52 AM

That's great news!
You find the warez which already have the build1400 update integrated. How they do it is described below.

Slipstream SAV9 Update
1. Run a setup.exe /A (admin install point)
2. Get AV-defs (get the i32 version) from here
3. Save it in a folder, and then change into that directory using the command-prompt. Create a new folder called "updts".
3. Extract the above-mentioned exe using "/EXTRACT .\updts" switch, and in the admin-install folder, over-write files in "\program files\Symantec AntiVirus\Virus Defs" with all files from the extracted i32 update.
2. extract "SAVCE_9.0.0.1400_AllWin_EN .msp" from the update (see previous post) .zip and place it into the SAV9 admin/server-image install dir.
3. Open a command-prompt into that directory, and use the following command:

CODE

msiexec /p "SAVCE_9.0.0.1400_AllWin_EN .msp" /a "Symantec AntiVirus.msi" /QB

So there it is, AV-updates and latest SecurityCenter patch merged into the distribution source. Now, can we have more details from ppl who have successfully pre-configured their SAV?
I mean, how to:
1. Disable the LiveUpdate that comes up at the end of install?
2. Disable Automatic updating
3. And whatever else, interesting things you ppl have found out.

Agent-X

Aug 11 2004, 07:01 AM

Thanks for the info prathapml but unfortunately I have some minor issues still.
I followed yor instructions but after a succesfull install (in vmware) I still needed two liveupdates to get it updated.

Any ideas how to solve this? :/

prathapml

Aug 11 2004, 07:21 AM

QUOTE (Agent-X @ Aug 11 2004, 06:31 PM)

I still needed two liveupdates to get it updated.

Could you please mention which ones those are?

Agent-X

Aug 11 2004, 08:13 AM

If you can tell me how to find out

For the moments some screens of the update:

[edited]

The virus definitions as stated in the programm were only updated after the seccond liveupdate.

prathapml

Aug 11 2004, 08:27 AM

OK, understood what the problem is.

(you can now edit out those screenies)

The SAV isn't ever satisfied with what is already there (even if it is the latest already) - it necessary always wants to go out and download the latest updates - I saw this being discussed somewhere - there's probably a registry entry, or a file signature somewhere which we aren't able to update when we merge the newest virus definitions.
Well, no probs as long as you can manually deny it permission to update itself, when you already *KNOW* that it has the latest it could get.

Agent-X

Aug 11 2004, 08:48 AM

Ok, my workaround so far is to simply call the manual virusupdate with the /Q switch.
I get an error doing this if I don't move/copy the file to the target system first (to be deleted afterwards).
This wil result in an updated definition but as you mentioned SAV still likes to update anyway

Also, executing a .msi file with the /qn switch gives me a nasty pop up if the publisher is unknown (fe the newly build SAV package)

Will this show during unattended install?

Ziuck

Aug 11 2004, 09:33 AM

nevermind

prathapml

Aug 11 2004, 09:39 AM

QUOTE (Agent-X @ Aug 11 2004, 08:18 PM)

executing a .msi file with the /qn switch gives me a nasty pop up if the publisher is unknown

Will this show during unattended install?

Hmm.... I suppose if it shows up during your testing in normal windows mode, it would do the same during uA setup as well.
I would gladly use the update with /Q switch, but my only gripe with it is that it would end up swelling the size of my CD - so I prefer to replace the existing defs with new - which Symantec still isn't satisfied with - I suppose it thinks we are a bunch of lying kids, so it asks its mother and confirms the news.

Ziuck

Aug 12 2004, 07:36 AM

is there anyway to recompress all of this like it was before the updates?

prathapml

Aug 12 2004, 07:50 AM

Yes.
Make that entire install folder compressed into an SFX archive which silently extracts to "%SystemDrive%\install\Applications\" folder from CD. The next command after that can be to run "%SystemDrive%\install\Applications\SAV\whatever.msi /whatever".

Easy, and at the end of the process, the space SAV occupies on your CD is reduced from its original size.

buzzons

Aug 12 2004, 01:07 PM

bleh my install of SAV wont work :S

using

QUOTE

ECHO.
ECHO Installing SAV 9.0
start /wait %systemdrive%\install\Applications\SAV\sav.msi /QN INSTALLSERVER=1 SERVERGROUPNAME=Boxen SERVERGROUPPASS=****** NETWORKTYPE=Managed RUNLIVEUPDATE=1 REBOOT=REALLYSUPPRESS

and having :

QUOTE

Directory of c:\XPCD\$OEM$\$1\Install\Applications\SAV

12/08/2004 03:14 <DIR> .
12/08/2004 03:14 <DIR> ..
14/04/2004 21:21 4,817,612 SAV.msi
1 File(s) 4,817,612 bytes
2 Dir(s) 133,503,991,808 bytes free

I get the "Installing SAV 9.0" echo.. and then there is a gap while it does something.. then it goes onto the next program. However when the process finishes SAV has not been installed into the \program files\ and there is no Sheild icon in the system tray. The program has not been installed.. and I dont know why, can any one help me please?

many thanks

Buzzons

prathapml

Aug 12 2004, 01:17 PM

Use "/QB" instead of "/QN" (atleast during testing). That way, you'll get an on-screen diag-box if anything is wrong during install. Do check that out and report back on what it says.

Also, you might like to un-install your current Anti-Virus, and install the SAV9 (which you are attempting to unattend) in the normal way while windows is fully operational - then you'd know if there's been any file-corruption.

buzzons

Aug 12 2004, 01:18 PM

im installing it within a Virtual PC so there is nothing installed as it is. Ill post back in a few mins with the result of that flag change.

thanks for the fast response

buzzons

Aug 12 2004, 01:39 PM

data1.cab can not be found during the install.. bleh?

sleepnmojo

Aug 12 2004, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (prathapml @ Aug 12 2004, 07:50 AM)

prathapml which msi are you using, or how do you integrate back to the Data1.cab? After following your instructions, I get 7 folders.

If I copy the original over, it will ask for the Data1.cab rather than use the updated files in the folder. Any idea here?

:: nevermind. Figured out how to do it. When I did the setup /a, it didn't work till I did it from the cd. Then everything worked.

Also something to add. when updating the virus defs, rather than using winrar to extract, use the command line
<exe file> <folder to extract to> /EXTRACT

copy the contents of that folder to \program files\Symantec AntiVirus\Virus Defs. If it worked, you won't see an update from liveupdate

buzzons

Aug 12 2004, 02:22 PM

well i went and got everyting from my SAV install disk in \SAV\ and copied it into the install folder .. seems to work fine

thanks man for the response

tcsdoc

Aug 13 2004, 12:36 AM

QUOTE

ECHO Installing Symantec AntiVirus Corp v9.0.0.1400
start /wait %systemdrive%\install\Applications\NAV\sav.msi /qn RUNLIVEUPDATE=0 REBOOT=REALLYSUPPRESS

ECHO Installing Virus Definitions Dated August 8th, 2004
start /wait %systemdrive%\install\Applications\NAVdefs\navupdate.exe /qb

These are the lines from my install.bat file. It loads SAV CE and the Updates without any inputs. I hope this info is helpful.

r4v3n

Aug 13 2004, 06:44 AM

How do you get setup /a to work. When I try it only wants to upgrade my installation and then tells my that my installation is newer already and quits. Strange thing is that my SAV installed is only 9.0.0.338.

By the way: I think the updater should be installed with /q only. Perhaps it works just as well with /qb?

Best regards
Niklas

prathapml

Aug 13 2004, 07:04 PM

When you run "Setup /A", you shouldn't have that app installed. So un-install SAV and try again.

Hey all, LiveUpdate has been updated to v2.5 to be compatible with XPSP2. Downloadable here. In NAV, you'd simply replace the "lusetup.exe" in the setup folders to have an updated version. But here, there seems to be no way visible (yet).

Any takers for an article on how to integrate LiveUpdate 2.5 into SAV9 ?

buzzons

Aug 13 2004, 07:40 PM

couldnt you just run the install file as it only needs u to click once?

prathapml

Aug 13 2004, 08:24 PM

QUOTE (buzzons @ Aug 14 2004, 07:10 AM)

couldnt you just run the install file as it only needs u to click once?

1. Demands too much effort (tried taking the file on CD to 200 PCs and clicking to update, and clicking OK, and clicking restart, and kicking the makers for having made this so horrible?)

2. It will take up too much redundant space on the unattended CD (SAV already has a version of LU right? so why not just replace it with newer one?)

killerbee

Aug 14 2004, 09:14 AM

hi,

a new LiveUpdate-Engine has been released from Symantec. You can install it silently if you unzip it with winrar and run this for a silent install:

CODE

Lsetup.exe -Q

hope this helps a bit

cya

Killer Bee

prathapml

Aug 14 2004, 09:33 AM

Does help a lot, thank you.

Now, is there a way to integrate/slip-stream it into the SAV setup like the other updates above?

killerbee

Aug 14 2004, 12:45 PM

hi,

Lsetup.exe isn't very informational with it's command-line switches. I found the -Q switch by trial and error. so other switches might be possible...

hope this helps a bit

cya

Killer Bee

nolookingca

Aug 14 2004, 04:00 PM

the help file doesn't seem very helpful, but here is it anyways in case somebody can find some use of it: ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/english_us_...ient_readme.txt

Aaron

Aug 21 2004, 05:04 AM

QUOTE (microwolf @ Aug 21 2004, 08:47 AM)

help me!
Download Symantec Antivirus Corporate Edition 9???

No, this isn't a warez site

Aaron

Aug 21 2004, 05:14 AM

QUOTE (prathapml @ Aug 14 2004, 02:04 AM)

Any takers for an article on how to integrate LiveUpdate 2.5 into SAV9 ?

You could probably extract the new lusetup.exe and dump all its extracted files into \CommonAppData\Symantec\LiveUpdate\LuMMInst. But I think I would prefer the silent install option.

prathapml

Aug 21 2004, 06:13 AM

QUOTE (microwolf @ Aug 21 2004, 01:17 PM)

help me!
Download Symantec Antivirus Corporate Edition 9???

Please don't ask for warez, nor for help about it - we don't need this useful thread to be closed for moderation.....

@Aaron
Thanks for idea - I'll try it and post back whether it works.

big poppa pump

Aug 21 2004, 07:36 AM

QUOTE (Aaron @ Aug 21 2004, 05:14 AM)

QUOTE (prathapml @ Aug 14 2004, 02:04 AM)

Any takers for an article on how to integrate LiveUpdate 2.5 into SAV9 ?

You could probably extract the new lusetup.exe and dump all its extracted files into \CommonAppData\Symantec\LiveUpdate\LuMMInst. But I think I would prefer the silent install option.

Nope that doesn't work. The liveupdate files have to be integrated at the .msi level. I tried eveythig possible but kept getting errors when I overworte the existing files in that directory. the .msi files contains the hash and the original file versions for the existing liveupdate files in the directory. These hashes and file versions will have to be updated if we replace the files in the LuMMInst directory.

mazin

Aug 21 2004, 08:26 AM

QUOTE (big poppa pump @ Aug 21 2004, 04:37 PM)

Symantec 9.0

link is dead!

Diabolical82

Aug 21 2004, 01:21 PM

I'm thinking about extracting lusetup.exe and replace all of files in "SAV\CommonAppData\Symantec\LiveUpdate\LuMMInst" has anyone tired this?

EDIT still waiting for prathapml on this one.

Aaron

Aug 21 2004, 01:46 PM

QUOTE (Diabolical82 @ Aug 21 2004, 08:21 PM)

I'm thinking about extracting lusetup.exe and replace all of files in "SAV\CommonAppData\Symantec\LiveUpdate\LuMMInst" has anyone tired this?

EDIT still waiting for prathapml on this one.

big poppa pump has confirmed it doesn't work

Diabolical82

Aug 21 2004, 01:49 PM

well that really blow.... I guess I could use KillerBee's suggestion

big poppa pump

Aug 21 2004, 03:01 PM

Eventually I hope someone figures out something. I have not yet given up. I am still trying to fool the MSI to accept the files, but I think the problem lies with the checksum values of the original values. However till that time I think the best option is to use /Q option.

Cee-Kay

Aug 22 2004, 07:45 PM

EDIT: Please view my latest post on page 9, where you can download the modified MSI installer for integrating LiveUpdate v2.5

Thanks.

Diabolical82

Aug 22 2004, 07:55 PM

Your "Ego Trip" will cost you a mistake... just kidding. Well i'll have to give it a shot, and I'll post back my result.

Diabolical82

Aug 22 2004, 08:11 PM

Back, and i have bad news... It doesnt work and i get error 1772 and it halt in middle of installing LiveUpdate.

big poppa pump

Aug 23 2004, 02:21 AM

QUOTE (Diabolical82 @ Aug 22 2004, 07:55 PM)

Your "Ego Trip" will cost you a mistake... just kidding. Well i'll have to give it a shot, and I'll post back my result.

Yes it DID!!

The only reason that SAV installed on your system was because you had LU 2.5 already installed on your system before you installed SAV 9. Try uninstalling LU 2.5, reboot your machine and then install SAV 9 from scratch.

You are in for a big surprise!!!

If in doubt read this file in the LU folder - LuResult.txt

QUOTE

This version of LiveUpdate was not installed because you already have the same version of LiveUpdate installed on your machine.

**END OF DRUM ROLL***

Diabolical82

Aug 23 2004, 12:29 PM

I guess no rebuttal from him? look like he had to swallow his pride, and his ego trip cost him a mistake.

Here's words of advice, 1.) do more of excessive testing, and ask for beta tester before you can offically announce you've found a working solution 2.) read the thread closely see what've been already tried.

prathapml

Aug 23 2004, 12:38 PM

@Diabolical82
Well, thanks for those words of advice, but please don't post words which might dis-courage anybody from posting solutions. Its always nice to see ideas coming up - and the ideas which didn't work at first will be worked upon by the others to make it work.

Oh well, that's what a community sharing knowledge is all about - a breeding ground for new ideas, and encouragement from others.

Diabolical82

Aug 23 2004, 12:45 PM

QUOTE (prathapml @ Aug 23 2004, 12:38 PM)

Oh well, that's what a community sharing knowledge is all about - a breeding ground for new ideas, and encouragement from others.

sound sexy... would you like to arrange breeding for your rig and my rig?

Just Kidding

jbourgui

Aug 23 2004, 01:43 PM

just a couple of quick questions for all of you...

- do you have to ask users to uninstall previous versions of Norton/Symantec AV and/or Liveupdate previous to running this? I wouldn't think that this would make sense, since this is meant to be an unattended install, but what happens if Norton Internet Security (with Norton AV) or a previous version of Symantec Corporate AV (or even McAfee!?) are on the end user's system? is there some sort of unattended Norton/Symantec uninstaller?

- will this process automatically install with the end user's language, or only english? I have users spread across the globe, and it'd be convenient if this install worked for all of them seamlessly.

- is there a way to get scheduled automatic liveupdates to happen at a different default time than "every Friday at 8pm", which is usually when people have their machines turned off?

- is there a way to get the "scan for expanded threats" turned ON by default in every scan?

Thanks for everyone's hard work to get this together... it's a real time saver!

-joe

prathapml

Aug 23 2004, 02:19 PM

- If a previous version of SAV is running, the SAV9 setup will automatically manage the uninstall and upgrade. If NAV or some other antivirus is running, I believe you can use the "/uninstall" switch on the original installer package. Also, please note that running more than one Anti-Virus at a time will result in lot of problems. But then, normally an unattended install means that you have pre-decided what are the things going into a setup of a raw machine (so there's nothing existing before this), so that shouldn't be a source of worry.....

- Hmmm..... This is a good idea actually, but needs more work than is worth putting in, to make it happen. It will install in its own language - if you have a spanish version of SAV9 on the setup, it will simply install spanish language version of SAV9, that's all - no auto-detection of language - so that's a disappointment for you.

- You can pre-configure live-update features using the LU-Admin app : look here

- SAV settings can be pre-configured when making a distributable setup EXE. Look on the CD for further help about this.

Hoping this helps.....

Cee-Kay

Aug 23 2004, 03:11 PM

Thanks for the words of advice, however the solution that I posted worked twice for me on a clean installation of Windows.

Sorry if this didn't work for you, at least I suggested a possibile solution!

It is easy to be judgemental and negative, perhaps Ill just spectate in future, and leave the forum to you guys.

prathapml

Aug 23 2004, 03:53 PM

@Cee-Kay
That's exactly the sort of dis-couragement I was afraid would get rubbed-off....
You can see that there was plenty of response to your solution. Do keep contributing - just because one person (not exactly good-naturedly) was not appreciative of you doesn't mean you should stop trying to help where you can. The rest of us are all in favour of new wind blowing across us stale old-timers. In fact, you can see that even the one who was critical of your method was initially happy to try it. Please do not move away from the scene.

Some ideas work, and some don't - we just have to accept that and keep digging for solutions.

jbourgui

Aug 23 2004, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (prathapml @ Aug 23 2004, 12:19 PM)

1 - But then, normally an unattended install means that you have pre-decided what are the things going into a setup of a raw machine (so there's nothing existing before this), so that shouldn't be a source of worry.....

2 - You can pre-configure live-update features using the LU-Admin app : look here

3 - SAV settings can be pre-configured when making a distributable setup EXE. Look on the CD for further help about this.

prathapml, thanks for the quick response! I'm numbering my responses to match with yours...

1 - I'm distributing this unattended install for many machines around the world that I've never seen/touched, so they may or may not have AV soft installed already... not an ideal situation, but how often is IT? :-/

2 - If I'm wanting the users to update off of the Symantec LU server (I don't have a LU server set up in house), can I still pre-configure the client LU options with LU-Admin?

3 - rtfm, I know, I know... I looked at all of the pdf docs on the cd, some useful, some not. I'm assuming that you meant that I should use the packager to put together the client options (such as scanning for expanded threats, etc). If I should be using the packager, where do I get a .pmi file for Sym AV Corp 9? I thought that the packager wasn't usable with 9.... If it wasn't the packager you were talking about, would you mind elaborating some more so that I can figure out how to create a custom .msi file with the options I need...

Thanks!

(as for Cee-Kay, I appreciate EVERYONE's input, whether it works for me specifically or not, since it gives me ideas that I may not have tried yet. thanks, ck!)

-joe

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