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My experience installing Windows 98SE

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25 replies to this topic

#1
BenoitRen

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Saturday, I finally received the PC I had asked a friend of mine to assemble. Yesterday I ran it for an hour with Puppy Linux. Today he brought me the drivers, so I could start installing Windows 98SE.

I started by partitioning my hard drive with GParted on Puppy Linux. I try to run Setup, but it always complains that it can't read the last cluster of C:. It insists on performing a surface scan. I quit Scandisk, and it informs me that Setup cannot continue. Great. Next time I let it, and after a half hour, it tells me that it has encountered a problem, and asks me if he should fix it. I tell it to not do this, and it aborts.

After searching on the Internet for a solution to my problem, it came to my mind that I should have partitioned with FDISK, as that's native. I did so, and then couldn't find the FORMAT utility. I boot Setup anyway, and it offers to format my partitions. Sure, go ahead! After that, Scandisk runs and doesn't perform a surface scan, and setup continues smoothly.

Next I installed the necessary drivers, and at the same time configure the system to my liking. While it automatically installs Client for Microsoft Networks when you install the network card, it doesn't automatically enable file and printer sharing, which is good. Then it was time to install my graphics card...

My graphics card is an Asus/ATI Radeon 9250. I had made sure that the graphics card would be one that would work with Windows 98SE, but yet the box says Windows 2000/XP. I try to install the drivers, but the wizard fails when trying to 'configure' (aka install) .NET Framework 1.1. So I read the readme, and looked around on the CD. The .inf file seems to state that this driver should even work with Windows 95... Anyway, starting the setup of .NET Framework directly, I get an error that states that I need at least IE 5.01. Terrific. I already didn't want the .NET Framework, and then it turns out it's tied to IE. **** you, Microsoft. That's where I stopped for the day.

Tomorrow I'll install the unofficial Service Pack before continuing.
Using Windows 95 OSR 2.5
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#2
Sfor

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Some graphic card drivers do not work without the Internet Explorer 5. I think both Nvidia and Ati drivers do have such a requirement. So, it is necesary to install IE before the graphics card drivers. The Nvidia drivers do not need a NET Framework, as far as I know.

#3
awergh

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when install 98se you can use the is swith on the setup (setup /is)
so that it skips running scan disk

#4
BenoitRen

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I installed IE6 SP1, and then setup continued. However, it crashed at the installation of the Enhanced Asus driver. The rest seemed to continue anyway. After a reboot, though, I still couldn't select more than 16 colours. So I tried installing only the VGA driver. Still couldn't.

I searched the Internet for the drivers, and after some searching, I found and installed Catalyst 6.2. The driver works, but the configuration panel seems to have problems, as it always crashes.

Installed the unofficial service pack. Gape should replace the icon vulnerability patch by the unofficial fix hosted by MDGx. I uninstalled that fix. I also renamed wmiexe.exe to wmiexe.bak to keep it from running. There is still a hourglass 5 seconds after the desktop appears, but it's better.

when install 98se you can use the is swith on the setup (setup /is)
so that it skips running scan disk

I was booting the CD and running setup, so I couldn't do that. Though I guess I could just have booted DOS from the CD and run setup that way. But it still was better to fix the actual problem.

For anyone who is interested, these are the PC's specs:
  • Motherboard: ASRock K51GX
  • CPU: AMD Sempron 2800+ (really an Athlon XP in disguise)
  • RAM: 1 GB DDR1
  • Graphics card: ATI Radeon 9250
Sound card and network card are part of the motherboard.
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#5
Sfor

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The windows 98 does not work well with memory amount exceeding 512MB. The problem is caused by a conflict with the graphics card memory adressing, as far as I undertand the problem.

It is possible to get around the 512MB memory limit, but I never did it by myself. There are topics about this particular problem, on the forum.

#6
awergh

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well with usp 2.1a the amount of ram is limited to about 1gb, the problem isnt usually getting to 1gb its getting over that amount but it does depend on you mobo and configuration

#7
Rjecina

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For begining I have problem with your MBO ?

You have been saying that name is ASRock K51GX. On ASRock site there is no this MBO so ... Name of MBO for AMD are K7 (socket A), K8 (socket 754), 939 (socket 939).

It is not possible for your "configuration" to have problems with memory. Example for that are my windows 98 SE which are working without problems with Core 2 Duo, 1 GB RAM and GPU Radeon 9600 with 256 MB.

I have 1 little problem during instalation of Windows 98 and this has been ease to solve.
My first instalation has been failure because of wrong order of drivers which I have been giving to system. You are having chipset drivers, GPU driver, USB driver and now I do not know what else. Simple I have been giving things in wrong order. My problem has been with USB and even now I do not have USB 2.0 which is making me angry !!

#8
awergh

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there is a generic usb 2.0 driver for 98se you can use, not sure where it is but it exists somewhere in these forums

#9
888

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Correct order of driver installation *IS* important.

BenoitRen, have you installed latest *chipset drivers* for your mobo?
You should have install it first right after OS installation.
If your mobo have VIA chipset, then it probably uses one of the VIA's "4in1 driver" or something like that (search for it).
For Intel chipsets Im sure you know where to go...

*After* chipset driver you can go with sound/lan drivers (if not autinstalled).
Then install WMI (not neccessary - but sometimes needed), IE6 SP1, .NET 1.1 SP1 + updates (I'd do full Windows Update run at this moment), and finally ATI drivers package.
USB2 and other devices drivers are always last for me.

BTW, what happened with your devotion to Win95? Something couldnt run on it? ;)

#10
BenoitRen

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You have been saying that name is ASRock K51GX. On ASRock site there is no this MBO so

My friend said that was the model. Looking on the box, it's actually ASRock K7S41GX.

BenoitRen, have you installed latest *chipset drivers* for your mobo?
You should have install it first right after OS installation.

That's what I did.

If your mobo have VIA chipset, then it probably uses one of the VIA's "4in1 driver" or something like that (search for it).
For Intel chipsets Im sure you know where to go...

The chipset is SiS 741GX.

BTW, what happened with your devotion to Win95? Something couldnt run on it? ;)

Nothing happened to that devotion. ;) But I wanted a newer PC that could run Phantasy Star Universe (would have gotten it on console if it was also for the GameCube of Wii) and for Mozilla development. Unfortunately, Windows 95 can't run on such a setup, at least not until someone creates the necessary motherboard drivers and figures out a way to port the timing issue fix which exists for Windows 98 and up. Also, the number of bishoujo games (not available on consoles) that don't run on my Windows 95 PC because of not having the required DirectX version and/or not the necessary computing power is increasing. So I went with the second best option, Windows 98 SE.

I still mainly use my Windows 95 PC, though, with the other PC more like a secondary machine. :)
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#11
dencorso

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BenoitRen, if you want a stable machine, specially with more than 512MB, do away with ACPI *and* APM.
Else you'll be plagued by spontaneous crashes with "Windows Protection Error" after >7h uptime.
Here's how:

1) In the BIOS, fully disable ACPI and select PIC, not APIC, as the programmable interrupt controller
mode.
2) Open regedit. Go to HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Detect and add as a dword
value ACPIOption=2. Close regedit and redetect your hardware: windows will remove all ACPI related devices
from the system and add APM.
3) Right-click on the desktop, select Properties -> Screen Saver -> Energy Saving Features of Monitor ->
Settings -> Power Schemes and select "Always On", "Never" and "Never", the select Advanced and uncheck
the "Always show icon on the taskbar". Click Apply, then OK, and reboot if so requested.
4) Open MSConfig, select "Startup" and unchek both "LoadPowerProfile" boxes (there are two of them)
and click Apply , then OK, and reboot.
5) Right-click on "My Computer", select Properties -> Device Manager -> System Devices -> Plug and Play BIOS -> Properties -> Settings, check the "Disable NVRAM/ESCD updates and click OK. Now select PCI Bus -> Properties -> Settings, check the "use hardware" option for Device Enumeration click OK. Reboot if so requested. (note of Nov 20, 2008: this next step can be omitted, because some machines do not accept disabling IRQ steereing, although most do accept it) Go back to Device Manager -> System Devices -> PCI Bus -> Properties, select the IRQ Steering tab and uncheck "use IRQ Steering", click OK and reboot if so requested.
6) Right-click on "My Computer", select Properties -> Device Manager -> System Devices and if it shows
an "Advanced Programmable Interrupt Controller", right click on it, select Properties -> Driver -> Update
Driver -> Specify the location of the driver -> Next, check "Display a list of all drivers...", click Next. It will
show only the driver already installed. Then select "Show all hardware" : A listbox will appear. In the
(standard system devices), choose "Programmable Interrupt Controller". You'll receive a dire warning.
Ignore it and click "Yes". Reboot.
7) Return once more to Device Manager -> System Devices and select the "IO Read Data Port for ISA
PnP Management", go to Properties -> Resources. If it says "The resources this device is using do not
match any of its known configurations..." click on "Set Configuration Manually". There may be a conflict
on the addresses of the Input/Output Range 0374-0377. Click on Change Settings and select a new
range from the list that shows "No devices are conflicting" in the Conflict information box (usually
0384-0387), click OK, OK, and reboot.
8) Return once more to Device Manager -> System Devices and select the "Advanced Power Management support" and *remove* it. Don't redetect the hardware and reboot. It'll not reappear automagically, but you should check for it every time windows finds new hardware, to remove it yet again if it ever reappears.
9) And, particularly if using more than 512MB, do not use EMM386.EXE at all. (Maybe many will disagree
with me about it, but in my experience Win 98SE and EMM386.EXE, Netroom, QEMM or 386-to-the-Max
don't mix, with more than 512 MB of memory, and, in fact, they are unnecessary to run windows).

And enjoy a stable Windows 98SE! :thumbup HTH. Win 9x rocks!

Of course, the standard disclaimer applies: YMMV and I may also be just a raving madman, but, then
again, anything you do is of YOUR SOLE RESPONSIBILITY, anyway... You have been warned.

Edited by dencorso, 20 November 2008 - 03:30 PM.


#12
BenoitRen

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Wow, all those steps just to disable ACPI and APM? o_O I had already removed the LoadPowerProfile stuff, but the other things look a little daunting.
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#13
Chozo4

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Else you'll be plagued by spontaneous crashes with "Windows Protection Error" after >7h uptime


I wouldn't go as far as removing ACPI/APM to 'fix' such an issue as it's likely caused by a certain piece of software running rather than the OS. I've literally hit around 908 hours last I looked (37+ days) before it got restarted due to a power outage.

#14
dencorso

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Well, BenoitRen, it is easier to do than to describe. I've just done it again today on another
machine and it took me no more than 15 min to do it all. After I'd done it I decided to edit my
previous post, because I'd forgotten to talk about the I/O port range conflict that uses to
appear, and how to solve it. So I think that now my previous post is a really precise guide on
how to remove ACPI and APM...

Chozo4, I'm glad your machine is so stable. I don't think the "Windows Protection Error"s I
mentioned are software related, as I've seen them happen on plain vanilla instalations having
just windows and nothing more. But I do believe they're BIOS or hardware related, as I've
seen them only on Asus (A7V600-X or A7V400-MX) or Soyo (SY-K7VTA PRO) boards, and
updating their BIOSes to the latest existing versions did not solve the problem. But removing
ACPI and APM did the trick. They may originate in bad code deep within the ACPI/APM part of
their BIOSes. Or they may be related to the VIA chipsets employed in all these boards. I really
don't know. But, as BenoitRen's board is an AsRock, and that is related to ASUS, I thought my
post might be of help. Of course, if the problem is related to the chipset, BenoitRen will never
experience it. But others may. And there may be others who want or need to remove ACPI and
APM completely for other reasons, whatever those reasons may be. But, up to now I'd never
found on the net a detailed recipe on how to do it, so I decided to provide one. Then again, let
me ask you: in a desktop, what's the use of ACPI or APM? There is no battery which charge
must be preserved at any cost to worry about...

#15
888

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Some of my computers run for months without any crashes whatsoever (I dont remember when was last time any of my PCs crashed lol); one's uptime is almost 2 years (it works as PVR/DVR/Media Center, stable W2K and no connection outside my home network except for weekly tv guide updates - hence no reboots because no updates or such is needed ;-) )
Im skeptic - I never "removed" (disabled) ACPI or APM from any machine, and I never had any problems with "spontaneous reboots" after >7hrs... but then I never run W98 or ME (just 95 on 1 old box for them DOS/9x games).

Why would your computer crash because of ACPI or APM? I really can't see how having ACPI/APM enabled may have bad influence on your machine (short of having f**d up BIOS).
Someone please explain?

Edited by 888, 25 July 2007 - 12:00 AM.


#16
Sfor

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I've been observing problems when some device shared IRQ with the ACPI controller. Looks like some devices do not want to share IRQ with others. Also, it is a good habbit to not to use IRQ 9 (ACPI controller is using it) if not necesary. Besides that, ACPI was not causing problems to me. My Windows 98 computers were working days without a crash, quite often.

I do believe some boards or devices do have problems with ACPI or APM. But, I'm using Intel based boards mostly. The last ACPI related conflict was caused by using the same IRQ 9 by Intel hardware monitoring software and TV tunner card. It happened on Windows 95, as far as I remember. I moved the TV tunner to the other slot, and everything was working fine. The SCSI controller was working correctly on the same IRQ 9 line.

Edited by Sfor, 25 July 2007 - 12:34 AM.


#17
dencorso

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888, Win 9x/ME is known to have issues with ACPI/APM, at least for some hardware scenarios.
It has been discussed before, both here and elsewhere. Just google for it and you'll find lots of
info on it. See, for instance: http://www.msfn.org/...o...45373&st=51
But most places imply you need to do a clean reinstal with "setup /p i" to get rid of ACPI and
most don't tell you that you can remove the APM device and Windows will not spontaneously
reinstall (redetect) it (for setup /p i see: http://support.micro...om/kb/q186111/). My wish
was to point out that it IS possible to remove ACPI/APM from an already installed and
configured system, without a reinstall. But, in any case, it is a procedure that ought to be done
only when necessary. I am a firm believer that you shouldn't try to fix what isn't broken, of course.
I never talked about "spontaneous reboots" after >7hrs... What I was talking about are "black
screens of death", crashes in which windows returns to a DOS mode text screen and halts, after
printing the message "Windows Protection Error. You must restart your computer." These things
usually happen because of missing devices at boot time (by far the most common cause, as you
can find googling for it) or with faulty hardware, specially bad memory. But it usually hapens at
boot time, while the condition I described happens long after the system is up and running, usually
after 7 or more hours. I never found it described elsewhere and it took me a long time and much
trial-and-error to trace it back to ACPI/APM. I know for sure it is a problem on some ASUS and SOYO
boards for AMD processors, having VIA chipsets.

Edited by dencorso, 25 July 2007 - 03:31 AM.


#18
BenoitRen

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Well, I have a SiS chipset, so I should be fine. :)

By the way, one does not need to enter line breaks, except for making paragraphs, in posts. Lines wrap automatically.
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#19
888

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thx 4 links, dencorso.

I still think its a very rare occasion when such circumstances may arise to need to disable ACPI or APM.
As I said earlier, it never happened to me while hundreds of computers set/fixed/build.
IMHO it have to be really bad bad luck to someone if it happens ;)

And as Sfor noticed, it is general rule of thumb not only ACPI/APM related:
sharing resources is never good idea...

Edited by 888, 25 July 2007 - 02:15 PM.


#20
Chozo4

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I don't think the "Windows Protection Error"s I
mentioned are software related, as I've seen them happen on plain vanilla instalations having
just windows and nothing more.


Ah, It had meerly seemed very odd to me which is why I'd initially shot it down to a software issue. My apologies :)

Then again, let
me ask you: in a desktop, what's the use of ACPI or APM? There is no battery which charge
must be preserved at any cost to worry about...


2 Words - Device Life :)

If you leave the pc running for a time, shutting down the hard disks will help extend life through not running them. This will also reduce wear from heat damage depending on your disk and heat output as higher RPM disks run much warmer than their slower counterparts. Also shutting down the disks help the components inside the pc cool more as there is one less device producing heat and less strain on the power supply (which will also then produce less heat). Comes in very useful if you've multiple hard disks as the non-primaries [usually] won't be used so often and so will be turned off untill they are next accessed.

Shutting off the monitor will reduce burn-in effects on an idle CRT display (which also blur a bit the older they get) or the wear on an LCD (display gets dimmer when they wear out).

In all cases you also cut on power use thus reducing the electric bill a small bit. Surely you could just shut off the computer and/or monitor but there are those times you might just need it running. :)

Edited by Chozo4, 28 July 2007 - 09:25 PM.


#21
dencorso

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Ah, It had meerly seemed very odd to me which is why I'd initially shot it down to a software issue. My apologies :)

Apologies accepted :)

Then again, let me ask you: in a desktop, what's the use of ACPI or APM? There is no battery which charge must be preserved at any cost to worry about...

2 Words - Device Life :) [...]

You are right, of course! :blushing: My apologies :)

I think I've had more experience with ASUS A7V600s, A7V400s and Soyo K7VTAs than is healthy, but they were rather popular around here, are pretty robust... and have issuses with ACPI/APM that usually go undetected because they mainly affect uptime...

But, more recently, I've found a scenario where this problem is easy to detect: if one installs eMule, and it consistently crashes the system after about one and a half hour or less, this is also due to the ACPI/APM issue! But much easier to detect!

Anyway, I think I've had more bad experiences with ACPI/APM than would be my fair share...

#22
888

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Ah, It had meerly seemed very odd to me which is why I'd initially shot it down to a software issue. My apologies :)

Apologies accepted :)

Then again, let me ask you: in a desktop, what's the use of ACPI or APM? There is no battery which charge must be preserved at any cost to worry about...

2 Words - Device Life :) [...]

You are right, of course! :blushing: My apologies :)

I think I've had more experience with ASUS A7V600s, A7V400s and Soyo K7VTAs than is healthy, but they were rather popular around here, are pretty robust... and have issuses with ACPI/APM that usually go undetected because they mainly affect uptime...

But, more recently, I've found a scenario where this problem is easy to detect: if one installs eMule, and it consistently crashes the system after about one and a half hour or less, this is also due to the ACPI/APM issue! But much easier to detect!

Anyway, I think I've had more bad experiences with ACPI/APM than would be my fair share...



More than month ago I setup system based on A7V600.
I included emule as well (owner is a polish guy and he said this is the most popular filesharing soft among Poles, thus he need it to get polish-language content) and as always I enabled ACPI/APM on this box.
I haven't heard any complaints from him so far, last time we spoke his box was running smooth for 3+ weeks straight (emule).
Are you sure?
(edit: I fortgot this is 9x forum; I set it up with Win2K, perhaps thats why it works fine)

Edited by 888, 11 August 2007 - 02:38 PM.


#23
Legolash2o

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On windows 98SE, when you input the cd do NOT run Setup and go with CD-rom support (well the option that takes you to command prompt, type in "cd win98" so your in the windows 98 directory of the cd (equivalent to I386 folder on XP) and type "setup /?" there is a syntax where it skips the disk checking so it will get past the cannot read last cluster problem :)

graphics card... install it manually without the ATI program, cant really remember how to do this as i havent been on windows 98 for along time. Control Panel > Add hadrware and the inf needed is in the ATI temp folder bin > driver

Edited by legolash2o, 11 August 2007 - 03:00 PM.


#24
Eck

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What they all said about driver order and things, and doing the Via Hyperion drivers first. A little tip there. Install WinZip or WinRAR or whatever your favorite extraction program is and extract the files from the Via file. Copy the AGP folder to the C: root directory and manually use Device Manager to update the Microsoft standard PCI to PCI adapter in the System Devices section to the one in the Windows 95 folder of that Via AGP directory. This will give you AGP acceleration and Direct 3D texture acceleration that will otherwise run at PCI bus speeds if using the 98SE version Via's installer uses. The Windows 95 VXD driver works fine on 98, whereas Via uses a .sys driver in the default installation that doesn't allow AGP acceleration. Choose the AGP 2.0 3.0 Compatible Driver if that's what your board has. If your motherboard has a 4X slot, that's the one. If only a 2X slot, you can use either driver but the plain Jane one without the 2.0, 3.0 support has better compatibility with older motherboards.

Before rebooting (say no), install the Hyperions from the normal Via setup.exe and uncheck the AGP driver. Restart when done.

Then install Internet Explorer 6 SP1 and Direct X 9.0c. Doing those will also install Windows Installer 2.0 which should help the ATI installer as well.

Then install a downloaded from ATI Catalyst driver instead of that ASUS provided one. Make sure to get it from the Windows 98 or Windows Me (they're identical) sections of the website. The ATI setup should work fine. The Control Panel and Smartgart offer nice controls over your card, the 3D settings, and color and video settings. It's just nice to have them. It does not require DotNET to be installed as the later XP Catalyst drivers do. If you want DotNET, install it before Direct X so the managed Direct X will give applications more control over the hardware, increasing performance. Be aware there are Service Packs and security patches that need to be applied if you do install DotNET. They do funky things to Windows startup until the ATI driver is installed, then things return to normal.

I used ATI cards for a long time on Windows 98, 98SE, and Me and the last 9x official ATI Catalysts worked great for me as long as I did that little trick with the Via AGP driver first.

If your PATH statement in AUTOEXEC.BAT has been customized, you'll need to check it before restarting after the ATI install. ATI's installer will in those cases double up on the entries so you'll need to remove the redundant stuff so Windows won't get confused by it. When you check it out you'll know what I mean. Just open sysedit from the run box and check it out before rebooting. If no PATH statement was there before hand, ATI's installer will set it up correctly. It needs to be

SET PATH=%PATH%;

and then whatever ATI puts there. If something was there before then it will repeat that part, which messes the command up obviously.
Epox EP8KRAIPRO AthlonXP3200+ NVidia GeForce 6600GT AGP Audigy 2 ZS Crucial 2x1024MB 3200 RAM

#25
dencorso

dencorso

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[...]
But, more recently, I've found a scenario where this problem is easy to detect: if one installs eMule, and it consistently crashes the system after about one and a half hour or less, this is also due to the ACPI/APM issue! But much easier to detect!
[...]


More than month ago I setup system based on A7V600.
I included emule as well (owner is a polish guy and he said this is the most popular filesharing soft among Poles, thus he need it to get polish-language content) and as always I enabled ACPI/APM on this box.
I haven't heard any complaints from him so far, last time we spoke his box was running smooth for 3+ weeks straight (emule).
Are you sure?
(edit: I fortgot this is 9x forum; I set it up with Win2K, perhaps thats why it works fine)


Hi, 888!
You are quite right!
This ACPI/ACM issue is found only in Win 98SE and ME (perhaps also in Win 98, but it doesn't install it by default).
If you deploy eMule with Win 2k or XP, you'll not see it (because it's not there, in these OSs).




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