[teddy123]

I am about to buy a new computer and use Windows98 on it,
are there any hardware I should avoid ?

Do pci-express only work with some motherboards and/or graphic cards?

I would like to build something like this:
motherboard: ASUS M2V VIA K8T890 S-AM2 GBLAN ATX
graphics card: ASUS EXTREME GEFORCE 7600GS SILENT 256MB PCI-E
processor: AMD ATHLON 64 3800+ SOCKET AM2 512KB BOX
memory: CORSAIR 2GB DDR2 PC6400 XMS2 XTREME (2X1GB) CAS4

but would there be problems getting win98 work with this?

[diluxp]

Motherbord is ok
Graphics card u should buy is 6200TC or 6800GT as win98 last drive for 6 serieds only
2*1024 is ok but u need to use 1024 only when installing win98 . win98 will not run on 2gb ram

[teddy123]

> Motherbord is ok
> Graphics card u should buy is 6200TC or 6800GT as win98 last drive for 6 serieds only

in the http://www.msfn.org/...showtopic=97140 someone says
"It has been reported that this driver *works* on some PCI Express GeForce [7600 GS]"

and later in the thread there is a link to a new driver http://www.mdgx.com/files/nv8269.php
"Unofficial NVIDIA Display Driver 82.69 for Windows98/98SP1/98SE/ME"

so I guess there is driver for both pci-e and geforce7600gs now?
(But maybe there is some shutdown problems? but I guess I can live vith that,
it isn't that hard to push the powerbutton after exiting windows)


But now another problem has got me: I wanted the 45W version (65nm) of the AMD64 3800+
(the biggest reason to choose 3800) so the computer would not generate that much heat,
so it would be more silent. But problem is, the motherboard doesn't support the processors "stepping"
(what is that??) if I should trust amd's webpage:
http://www2.amd.com/gb-uk/recmobo/DetailHa...?queryID=111728
(I got there from http://www2.amd.com/gb-uk/Processors/Devel...%5E9461,00.html )

If I mount the AMD64 3800+ 65nm/45W 'G1 stepping' into the motherboard ASUS M2V VIA K8T890 S-AM2
will it just not work then? or give me a message "processor not supported error" or something?

....So either I have to find another motherboard that is nice to win98 or
give up on the idea of a low-watt processor


> 2*1024 is ok but u need to use 1024 only when installing win98 . win98 will not run on 2gb ram

yes the extra gig is for other oses like linux and winxp. If I understand you
right, I have to temporarly remove one of the memories during install of win98,
but can put it back later (after some registry-change or something) ?
As long it is ok to install with 1GB it's fine. I don't have anything smaller
since I don't have any other computer with DDR2

[gosh]

My only comment is to use 512 mb of ram. Win98 wasn't designed to work with more than 512 mb of ram. It'll work, but performance will decrease. I also avoid winmodem's like the plague.

-gosh

[Fredledingue]

gosh, on Jul 19 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

My only comment is to use 512 mb of ram. Win98 wasn't designed to work with more than 512 mb of ram. It'll work, but performance will decrease. I also avoid winmodem's like the plague.

-gosh

Wrong:

here is the solution.

My w98SE++ recognize and use 1Gb. (Actualy my resource meter shows 671 Mb free...)

Quote

01-Start the Windows 98SE installation.
02-Choose the components you want to install etc.
03-Stay in front of your computer; this first step will only take a couple of minutes.
04-When this first step is completed the computer will restart.
05-Now hit the F8 Function key to go in the BOOT menu.
06-Choose: Command prompt only.

07-Edit the file named system.ini with the following command: edit c:\windows\system.ini

Locate the following entry: [386Enh]
Add the following line below the [386Enh] entry.
MaxPhysPage=3FE00
This will limit Windows 98SE to 1020 Megs of RAM.
If you experience any problem use this value instead:
MaxPhysPage=3C000

Locate the following entry: [vcache]
Add the following lines below the [vcache] entry.
MinFileCache=100000
MaxFileCache=100000

08-Save the file and exit.
09-Reboot.

Note that you can still reboot in safe mode and do the above mentioned tweaks in safe mode using notepad (easier).

[teddy123]

Thanks for the installation guide!

Now I have read more about the motherboard at asus webpages and
as I undestand, to use it with the 45W version (65nm) of the AMD64 3800+
the bios must be flashed. But is it possible to run the computer enough
with that processor to be able to flash?

I mean, can the bios setup (and its integrated flashing program) be run despite
the processor is not supported (yet) ?


And I'm not sure how well the ASUS EXTREME GEFORCE 7600GS SILENT 256MB PCI-E
graphics card will work with win98se yet... there it lots of talk in
http://www.msfn.org/...showtopic=97140
about the http://www.mdgx.com/files/nv8269.php, and everything is not about the
latest version... problems talked about is that windows don't turn off power when exit
(I turn off power on a separate powerbutton on the floor after anyway so it's ok), and
someone said something about bad graphics running dos games in a dosbox in windows
(ok I can run dos games directly from dos but its a bad thing), allso problems restarting
windows with 'win' command from dos. Well nothing that is show-stopper for me, if there
isn't more problems than that.

But the thing that i don't like is the sentence
"PCIe may or may not work, depending on motherboard, chipset +/- NVIDIA GPU."
So I must find someone that have tried the parts I want then?
at least the parts themself, even if not together...

The motherboard (ASUS M2V VIA K8T890 S-AM2 GBLAN ATX) is mentioned as working,
except for the integrated sound and network(?) - I want to use a 'SoundBlaster Live! 5.1'
modell SB0100 I allready have, and a separate network card will be just nice for the
extra struck-by-lightning -protection (my old computer died when lightning followed the
network cable from another computer), so that is not so important to me.

anyone else have any thoughts of these?

[BenoitRen]

Take a 32-bit CPU instead of a 64-bit one. Windows 98, XP and most Linux distributions don't support 64-bit, and almost all applications don't either. There is no advantage of 64-bit unless you need to use more than 2 GB of RAM.

[vbdasc]

BenoitRen, on Jul 23 2007, 04:12 PM, said:

Take a 32-bit CPU instead of a 64-bit one. Windows 98, XP and most Linux distributions don't support 64-bit, and almost all applications don't either. There is no advantage of 64-bit unless you need to use more than 2 GB of RAM.

But where one can buy a 32-bit CPU these days? IMHO all new CPUs are 64-bit

teddy123, on Jul 22 2007, 06:52 AM, said:

... problems talked about is that windows don't turn off power when exit
(I turn off power on a separate powerbutton on the floor after anyway so it's ok), and
someone said something about bad graphics running dos games in a dosbox in windows
(ok I can run dos games directly from dos but its a bad thing), allso problems restarting
windows with 'win' command from dos. Well nothing that is show-stopper for me, if there
isn't more problems than that.

But the thing that i don't like is the sentence
"PCIe may or may not work, depending on motherboard, chipset +/- NVIDIA GPU."
So I must find someone that have tried the parts I want then?
at least the parts themself, even if not together...

I have a 7600GT running well, but it is an AGP one. While shutdown problem is definitely annoying, it is still possible to live with it. As there is a workaround for the problem with graphics in VESA using DOS games, it is not fatal too. I'm not sure about the PCI-e / Win98 compatibility, though.

BTW, I think you can still get an AGP mobo and play safe, for example an Asrock AM2NF3.

This post has been edited by vbdasc: 23 July 2007 - 12:18 PM

[BenoitRen]

Quote

But where one can buy a 32-bit CPU these days?

From second-hand shops, shops dealing in older hardware, and if you live in the US, NewEgg.com.

I got a 32-bit CPU for my new PC. You can, too.

Quote

IMHO all new CPUs are 64-bit

That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Unfortunately.

[Andrew T.]

32-bit CPUs are no longer being manufactured? That's news to me: I guess I live under a rock.

[vbdasc]

Andrew T., on Jul 24 2007, 12:52 AM, said:

32-bit CPUs are no longer being manufactured? That's news to me: I guess I live under a rock.

It's true; the situation is not that desperate, though The 64-bit CPUs from AMD and Intel (except the Itaniums) are still compatible with the 32-bit and 16-bit instructions - in theory, they still can run even MS-DOS 1.0 or Windows 3.0. And it hardly makes sense buying an used 32-bit CPU when the new Celerons/Semprons cost under 50USD and are fully backward-compatible with all legacy software.

P.S. Oops, it seems VIA still sells pure 32-bit CPUs, and maybe Transmeta does too

[BenoitRen]

It doesn't make sense to me to buy a CPU that you can't fully use. And I got my CPU for just 25€ with cooler included, so...

[bigjet]

LOTS OF GOOD ADVICE ABOVE, BUT SOME MISS-INFORMATION TOO. I have been running an Asus K8V-X-SE with AMD 3700 64 CPU (VIA chipset), with 1 Gig RAM, using Win 98SE ---NO PROBLEMS AT ALL FOR ALMOST A YEAR. AIW 2006 Graphis card (a mistake - not recommended with 98) Dont know where this 512 RAM limit for Win 98 came from - but it's not true. Also multi-boot MSDOS 6.2, Win 3.1, Win XP Professional 64 bit, Linux Fedora Core 6, and Centos (I'm running 4 hard drives - 2 IDE & 2 serial.) Strongly suggest you read all manufacturer's websites for driver support BEFORE YOU BUY ANYTHING - No Win 98 drivers: then DON'T BUY.

Good Luck
--bigjet

[marxo]

Yea... Drivers are essential... So I would take this advice seriously. Expect, you might be unable to find some components that are compatible with 98 @ manufacturer sites because there are usually only information about new products.

[erpdude8]

BenoitRen, on Jul 23 2007, 09:12 AM, said:

Take a 32-bit CPU instead of a 64-bit one. Windows 98, XP and most Linux distributions don't support 64-bit, and almost all applications don't either. There is no advantage of 64-bit unless you need to use more than 2 GB of RAM.

XP does support 64bit CPUs, BenoitRen. MS made 64-bit editions of WinXP designed for 64bit processors. weren't you paying attention or you just didn't realize that MS made 64bit versions of XP. see here:
http://www.microsoft...it/default.mspx

[BenoitRen]

I knew there were 64-bit versions of XP. But few buy those. There's no point when all the stuff you're going to run is 32-bit, and there are few drivers for 64-bit XP.

[teddy123]

yeah I've read that 64bit XP is somewhat problematic, but I am not gonna use 64bit windows anyway (well, as long as not anyone is creating a problemfree 64bit-capable windows98 hehehe), but I will run some 64bit Linux on it in the future. and someday in about five years or so I probably will add more momory to the computer (the M2V-motherboard can have 8Gb ASUS says) so it can handle that enormous 3D-thing I'm modelling in some linux counterpart of 3dsmax :-)
(with a by then bought serverfarm in the basement to do the processor-intensive rendering, well one can dream...)
And perhaps I will try that 64bit version of MenuetOS when they go GPL.
As long as I can run win98 on the computer it is ok that it isn't using anything more than 32bit and 1 to 1.5 GB (somewhere I've read some made it use 1.9 GB, but I guess dos-functionality will break then?), the rest are for the other oses I allso run.


The bad thing about the M2V-motherboard is that it have a "HD-audio" Realtek ALC660 that don't have win98-drivers
(and is not compatible with, or can emulate, anything older like AC97 either I think?) so I must put a soundcard in it, fortunately I have a SBLive!5.1 from and old computer that the stopped working when the weather-gods thought it was fun to 'flash' it a little... (but I guess I should check now that the soundcard wasn't hurt too... I guess it is hard to buy win98 and dos-compatible soundcards today, right?)

Today I've read that it is not as easy as just put the soundcard in some nice slot and everything works ok, it must be in the correct PCI-slot to get correct IRQ, and they should not collide with some other thing in the computer that allso uses that irq because they are all used up, twice.

The motherboard manual says:
IRQ assignment

A B C D E F G H
X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ _ X _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ _ _ X _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X PCI epress x1
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X PCI epress x16
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X GigabitLAN
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X Marwell 6121 SATA
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ SATA (VIA)
X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ USB1
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ USB2
_ _ X _ _ _ _ _ USB3
_ _ _ X _ _ _ _ USB4
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ HD audio

But I can't find any mention of what irq numbers the A to H is? or are they some other kinds of irq than the normal irq 0-15 (where soundcards normally use 5 or 7) ?

Though on the normal irq-list, irq 3, 10 and 11 are labled "IRQ Holder for PCI Steering". Are these three together forming the eight A to H, like 2^3=8 ?

perhaps I should disable, if possible, the USB-ports that uses the same letter-irq as the soundcards pci-slot. (since I will disable HD audio and don't use SATA they are a less problem)


Something I still really don't know is if I must borrow another processor to be able to flash the bios to a new version that supports the processors G1 stepping. And the webshop that I intended to buy the stuff from refuses to flash it for me.....

[vbdasc]

teddy123, on Aug 6 2007, 05:05 PM, said:

so I must put a soundcard in it, fortunately I have a SBLive!5.1 from and old computer that the stopped working when the weather-gods thought it was fun to 'flash' it a little... (but I guess I should check now that the soundcard wasn't hurt too... I guess it is hard to buy win98 and dos-compatible soundcards today, right?)

Today I've read that it is not as easy as just put the soundcard in some nice slot and everything works ok, it must be in the correct PCI-slot to get correct IRQ, and they should not collide with some other thing in the computer that allso uses that irq because they are all used up, twice.

The motherboard manual says:
IRQ assignment

A B C D E F G H
X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ _ X _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ _ _ X _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X PCI epress x1
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X PCI epress x16
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X GigabitLAN
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X Marwell 6121 SATA
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ SATA (VIA)
X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ USB1
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ USB2
_ _ X _ _ _ _ _ USB3
_ _ _ X _ _ _ _ USB4
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ HD audio

But I can't find any mention of what irq numbers the A to H is? or are they some other kinds of irq than the normal irq 0-15 (where soundcards normally use 5 or 7) ?

Though on the normal irq-list, irq 3, 10 and 11 are labled "IRQ Holder for PCI Steering". Are these three together forming the eight A to H, like 2^3=8 ?

perhaps I should disable, if possible, the USB-ports that uses the same letter-irq as the soundcards pci-slot. (since I will disable HD audio and don't use SATA they are a less problem)

IMHO in your case those A, B, C, D, H interrupts would correspond to the free IRQs - 3,5,7,10 and 11. I have no idea in what order, though. Also, I don't think you will need to disable the USBs. Just make sure to not use the second PCI slot for the soundcard - the SATA controller could create some really nasty resource conflicts.

P.S. Perhaps buying a new soundcard supporting W98 is still possible - Audigy2ZS/4 for example, or even something like Chaintech AV-710.

[tee charoen]

teddy123, on Aug 6 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

.. I guess it is hard to buy win98 and dos-compatible soundcards today, right?)

Today I've read that it is not as easy as just put the soundcard in some nice slot and everything works ok, it must be in the correct PCI-slot to get correct IRQ, and they should not collide with some other thing in the computer that allso uses that irq because they are all used up, twice.

The motherboard manual says:
IRQ assignment

A B C D E F G H
X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot_ _ X _ _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ _ _ X _ _ _ _ PCI slot
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X PCI epress x1
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X PCI epress x16
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X GigabitLAN
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ X Marwell 6121 SATA
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ SATA (VIA)
X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ USB1
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ USB2
_ _ X _ _ _ _ _ USB3
_ _ _ X _ _ _ _ USB4
_ X _ _ _ _ _ _ HD audio

But I can't find any mention of what irq numbers the A to H is? or are they some other kinds of irq than the normal irq 0-15 (where soundcards normally use 5 or 7) ?

Though on the normal irq-list, irq 3, 10 and 11 are labled "IRQ Holder for PCI Steering". Are these three together forming the eight A to H, like 2^3=8 ?

perhaps I should disable, if possible, the USB-ports that uses the same letter-irq as the soundcards pci-slot. (since I will disable HD audio and don't use SATA they are a less problem)


Something I still really don't know is if I must borrow another processor to be able to flash the bios to a new version that supports the processors G1 stepping. And the webshop that I intended to buy the stuff from refuses to flash it for me.....

Hi Teddy123,
I believe vbdasc is quite right that all those IRQ assignments in the M2V manual refers to those
std irq's etc. I'm not that technically savvy and when I was assembling my M2V, I paid *no* attention to that IRQ
list in the manual. If it will help this is how I put my cards on that M2V board:

* Powercolor X800GTO Radeon on the pci-ex16 slot
* Linksys Tx100 10/100 Lan card on pci slot 3 (your M2V manual will indicate which is slot 3)
* Creative SB Live 5.1 soundcard on pci slot 4 ( as above )

I've got 2 pieces of 512mb 533 ddr2 ram on board and will add another 2 pcs tomorrow.
and also bought an Audigy2 (new) to replace the sb5.1 ,nb: the Audigy2zs will also work under 98se.

Since it was bought, the M2V has been running just over a year and 1 month, plus lots of pleasure running 98se
at rather impressive speeds and responses, ymmv,
however in fact I shall buy one more to keep as a 'just in case ' as fewer and fewer mobos are
likely to support 98se in the near future from what I can see.

hth

tee charoen
member since Sep 06

Btw: no need to use another processor to flash bios on the board.
I'd flashed it to 1803 last month - just get the newest bios from Asus's site (1803)
also get afudos, follow instructions in your M2V manual and you're done.
1803 allow you to use the X2 6000 cpu on the M2V board - 98xx will fly!

This post has been edited by tee charoen: 14 August 2007 - 01:21 PM