[bsperan]

Is it theoretically possible to implement support for the NTFS format under Windows 98/SE/ME? And if it is possible, then why hasn't someone taken this up yet? By "implement" I mean full integration - full read/write access in a way such that it is almost indestinguishable to Windows from a FAT-32 partition. And by "support" I mean 80% or more of the NTFS functionality available in Windows 2000.

I do know there are a number of applications available and projects underway to provide support for NTFS in other operating systems and some have been around for several years. Some examples would be NTFS-3G, which is a stable, open source, freely available read/write NTFS driver for Linux, FreeBSD, Mac OS X, NetBSD, and Haiku. And there's Linux-NTFS, which is an open source project to add NTFS support to the Linux kernel.

With regard to the problems of NTFS compatibility on older Windows, this Wikipedia article on NTFS explains:

Quote

While the different NTFS versions have a great degree of both forward and backward compatibility, there are technical considerations for mounting newer NTFS volumes in older versions of Windows. This affects dual-booting, and external portable hard drives.

For example, "Previous Versions" (a.k.a. Volume Shadow Copy) are lost because the older OS doesn't understand how to keep the new features' data updated.

Still, there are several different software packages available which provides NTFS support for the Windows 98 series:

DiskInternals > NTFS Reader for Windows 95, 98, Me

NTFS for Windows 98 (v1.03) (Sysinternals)

Paragon > NTFS for Win 98

Purenetworking.net > NFTS FOR WINDOWS 95/98/ME

The first two links above are for freeware. However, the second two are commercial products. And they can be rather pricey. ($79 or more?! ) In some cases the software only allows reading and/or writing of files through an explorer-like interface, but some have more to offer. I noticed one of the commercial products claims "NTFS drives behave just like regular FAT and FAT32 drives." Unfortunately, several of these packages require files from either Windows NT 4.0 or Windows 2000 in order to work.

BTW: One of the freeware NTFS for Windows 98 solutions above is originally from a website called "Sysinternals" and a company called "Winternals Software." However, the company was bought out by Microsoft a couple years ago and several of their free programs have been removed from the site, including the NTFS for Windows 98 software. (So now we have to dig around for old copies.)

Anyway, if it is possible to implement NTFS into Windows 98 itself (through a major hack), I doubt it could support the extra file security that NT/2K/XP boasts. But it seems the biggest obstacle to such an implementation is the fact that the Windows 98 OS is still actually MS-DOS underneath. So it seems that NTFS support would have to be provided on the DOS level first, before Windows boots.

From an archived copy of the original Sysinternals description of their program I found this:

Archive.org > Sysinternals.com >NTFS for Windows 98

Quote

Do not convert your first partition, or your Windows 95/98 boot partition (the one with \windows on it), to NTFS as there is no support in Windows 95 or Windows 98 for reading NTFS drives during the boot sequence.

I do think it is technically possible to integrate at least partial support for NTFS to the Windows 9x family, but it would be a lot of work. To start with, I think you'd need a DOS implementation of NTFS.

I was thinking about the possibility of installing FreeDOS underneath Windows 98, thinking that perhaps the FreeDOS team may have implemented NTFS already. But then I read this:

Wikipedia > FreeDOS

Quote

Windows 95, 98 and Me use a stripped down version of MS-DOS as a bootloader. FreeDOS can not be used as a replacement bootloader; however, it can be installed and used beside these systems using a boot manager program, such as the "METAKERN" included with FreeDOS.

and this:

Quote

There is no planned support for NTFS or ext2, but there are several external third-party drivers available for that purpose. To access ext2fs, LTOOLS (counterpart to MTOOLS) can be used to copy data to and from ext2fs drives. NTFS support is provided by products such as NTFSDOS and NTFS4DOS.

Once I read that, I vaguely recalled reading about such products several years ago.

Wikipedia > NTFSDOS

This, however, was another product of Winternals Software. Microsoft bought them out recently and this was another program that was removed from their website. It is now considered abandonware:

Quote

Winternals was acquired by Microsoft mid 2006. Microsoft has removed any traces of NTFSDOS, NTFSDOS Tools and NTFSDOS Professional from the new internal site of Microsoft's Winternals' utilities.

Avira > Avira NTFS4DOS

This company does provide a "Personal" edition as freeware, provided it is only for personal use. And it does allow both reading from and writing to NTFS partitions. Though I'm not sure of the extent of its functionality. For the business environment they are selling their "Premium" edition. Their site says it "has the same functional range as the Personal version," so I wonder if this means the Personal version has nearly the same features.

This post has been edited by bsperan: 12 January 2008 - 05:27 AM

[bsperan]

Despite the lack of official NTFS support, I still think the best hope of integrating NTFS might be through FreeDOS. It sounds like the NTFS Wikipedia article used to state "The read/write NTFS-3G driver has been also ported to FreeBSD, Mac OS X, NetBSD, Haiku and FreeDOS..." Looking on the NTFS-3G website, one does not find a simple download solution for FreeDOS. However, someone asked about this on their forum. Apparently, it can be done, but it needs to be compiled from the library.

NTFS-3G > Forum > NTFS-3G and FreeDOS

szaka said:

Hi. Only the library can be used on DOS with some additional patches. They were sent to the ntfs-3g-devel list in the beginning of 2007.

szaka said:

The library is highly portable and can be compiled on platforms which are not explicitely listed, mentioned.

Also, searching through the old FreeDOS news archives, I found this mention of NTFS:

Quote

Reading NTFS from DOS (updated)
May 19 2002 by jhall
EnricoB sent me this note about reading NTFS from DOS: I have searched for a NTFS driver for DOS and have found it. It's under the GNU GPL and a port from Linux to DOS. I can't find the maintainer. Can you post this program at your page? May be the old maintainer contacts you or we search for a new maintainer. I have temporarily uploaded it at ntfs.zip.
I have also mirrored a copy of this at ibiblio util/disk/.
Update 2002-05-20: Several readers wrote in about this one, including Sebastien, W0rm, and Rich Green. Christophe simply moved his page, he's still around and he's still working on the open source NTFS utils: web site.
Update 2002-05-25: To answer several questions I've received: yes, this is reported to work. Micheal Kallas wrote: Yes, I tested it once with FreeDOS. Guess what? It worked! However, it didn't really work on one PC (either Compaq or HP, don't remember exactly) which had a proprietary partition at /dev/hda1 (first primary).

Perhaps it would be possible to compile NTFS-3G to work under MS-DOS and Windows 98? If not, it has already been shown to work under FreeDOS, provided it is properly compiled. And while FreeDOS by itself may not be able to replace MS-DOS under Windows, it can run alongside MS-DOS. And with additional free software, FreeDOS can support Win32 applications - including limited support for Windows.

On the FreeDOS Wikipedia article:

Quote

Further, with use of HX DOS Extender, many Win32 console applications function properly in FreeDOS, as do some GUI programs, like QEMU and Bochs.

This HX DOS Extender is free, by the way and source code is available. And their website states "Furthermore HX implements - limited - support for windows, DirectDraw, GDI and even OpenGL graphics."

There is also the FreeDOS-32 project, which also supports Win32 applications.

Wikipedia > FreeDOS:

Quote

FreeDOS-32 is a separate project with different goals. FreeDOS aims to recreate MS-DOS, both features and general limitations. FreeDOS-32 aspires to extend and improve on that base. FreeDOS-32 can be run on top of FreeDOS or another member of the DOS family.

Unfortunately, looking at their website, it seems they're still in the pre-
beta stage and the last update to their news archive appears to be from December of 2005.

Still, it looks like open-source solutions for NTFS integration into DOS are available. So what's stopping Windows 98 integration?

This post has been edited by bsperan: 12 January 2008 - 05:22 AM

[Glenn9999]

(edit: You posted a link to NTFS for Windows98 I see now. But it seems to perform what you're looking for)

This post has been edited by Glenn9999: 12 January 2008 - 05:51 AM

[idisjunction]

Even if you patch FreeDOS to boot off of an NTFS partition, you still have to patch Windows 98 to run off of FreeDOS.

[Tihiy]

There's one way to boot 9x from NTFS: grub loader for DOS. It provides emulated hard disk or floppy drive image to boot from via int 13h, from FAT or NTFS. Then, in theory, some Windows 9x NTFS driver will load itself and disable int 13h hook. And on shutdown, it will write updated registry back into image. However, with existing tools, it is a hard and unreliable solution.

[RainyShadow]

Already using NTFS for Win98, all i'd like to have is a way to de/compress files (some Win9x variant of compact.exe from XP would do) and to create/delete hardlinks. This on data partitions of course, no need to use NTFS on the C: drive.

[bsperan]

Tihiy, on Jan 14 2008, 04:02 AM, said:

There's one way to boot 9x from NTFS: grub loader for DOS. It provides emulated hard disk or floppy drive image to boot from via int 13h, from FAT or NTFS. Then, in theory, some Windows 9x NTFS driver will load itself and disable int 13h hook. And on shutdown, it will write updated registry back into image. However, with existing tools, it is a hard and unreliable solution.

Well, at least I now know it is possible. You said that "...in theory, some Windows 9x NTFS driver will load itself and disable int 13h hook. And on shutdown, it will write updated registry back into image." Could you be more specific on how this might be accomplished? Is it just a matter of properly setting up say, NTFS for Windows 98, and the grub loader?

RainyShadow, on Jan 15 2008, 06:06 AM, said:

Already using NTFS for Win98, all i'd like to have is a way to de/compress files (some Win9x variant of compact.exe from XP would do) and to create/delete hardlinks. This on data partitions of course, no need to use NTFS on the C: drive.

I have a desire to see NTFS used on the C: drive. If this could be easily demonstrated as feasible, then perhaps it would be possible for "KernelEx" or a similar project to one day more thorougly and accurately integrate support for XP applications. Some XP applications require support for NTFS and will not function without this.

[Offler]

Since NTFS is lowering disk performance (i have measured it with HD tach) i am looking for more advanced solution - such as linux filesystems or exfat filesystem.

I have found ERTFS filesystem which seems to be most compatible with either dos and windows 9x without further patching. But it is commercial product at all and i am not sure about its compatibility and performance.

[Ninho]

Well, installable file systems have existed since Windows for Workgroups 3.11 ! The possibility exists to implement protected mode support for virtually any file system type, including of course the NTFS (without advanced functions, security etc... which are not covered by the Windows 9x API). Small problem : since MS did not want to do it for obvious reasons (differentiate NT "professional grade" OS from home OS), you have to doo it yourself (and with very little documention at that).

Third party support for NTFS in Windows 9x /exists/, it is (was) a commercial product from Wininternals/Sysinternals.

This said, like the other responder said, if FAT32 does not satisfy your needs, why would you want a proprietary file system like NTFS ? Much more interesting and useful as an IFS would be Ext2FS (Ext3FS without the journaling). But don't hold your breath, I don't think anybody's going to implement, code and test a full IFS on Win 9x in this century.

Cheers

--
Ninho

[jaclaz]

Well, for the recordm there ARE apps for win 9x to acces ext2/ext3 filesystems:
http://martin.hinner.info/fs/Filesystems-H...ms-HOWTO-6.html
points6.5, 6.6, 6.8 and 6.9.

Most are however experimental, READ ONLY or "special applications" not real filesystem drivers like ext2fsnt.

jaclaz

[Ninho]

jaclaz, on Jan 18 2008, 09:06 PM, said:

Well, for the recordm there ARE apps for win 9x to acces ext2/ext3 filesystems

Yes of course, I've used such apps, but they're not Windows installable file systems. Apples and oranges.

Quote

Most are however experimental, READ ONLY or "special applications" not real filesystem drivers like ext2fsnt.

Precisely. Sometimes useful, but don't expect full integration.

--
Ninho

[bsperan]

Some of you guys just aren't listening/reading to the words I wrote...

Ninho, on Jan 18 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

Third party support for NTFS in Windows 9x /exists/, it is (was) a commercial product from Wininternals/Sysinternals.

Yes, I've already mentioned (and provided links) for both "NTFS for Windows 98" and "NTFSDOS" (for DOS). However, again, neither of these program solutions will provide what I'm looking for. Furthermore:

1) Winternals Software is no longer providing any support for these products. In fact the company was bought by Microsoft and has since removed all traces of these. Try www.sysinternals.com and you will see that you end up at a microsoft.com page instead.

2) While both DiskInternals' "NTFS for Windows 98" and Winternals' "NTFS for Windows 98" are/were available as free downloads, neither of the free versions provide write access. These function as read-only. And, obviously, they don't provide full integration into Windows 98. Even the commercial products do not provide full integration.

Quote

This said, like the other responder said, if FAT32 does not satisfy your needs, why would you want a proprietary file system like NTFS ? Much more interesting and useful as an IFS would be Ext2FS (Ext3FS without the journaling). But don't hold your breath, I don't think anybody's going to implement, code and test a full IFS on Win 9x in this century.

Admittedly, the Win9x family is considered not only obsolete, but very obsolete by many. I don't see many new commercial software packages or hardware targeted for Window 9x anymore. (Probably none at all.) However, there are still many millions of Windows 9x users worldwide. And the many amazing member projects here on MSFN and elsewhere shows that, while official support for Windows 9x has been dropped, users do and will continue to develop their own support and software for the OS they love.

Besides, if someone did implement and code a full IFS for Win9x, I'm sure they would not have to test and debug all on their own. There would be plenty of us willing to test and write bug reports for them.

Why the interest in NTFS for Win9x? I've got several reasons:

1) Some of us prefer the lightweight footprint, speed, and familiarity that the Windows 98 family provides over the sluggish, cumbersome, resource-hog that is Windows XP and especially Windows Vista. And then there's the whole matter of security flaws and trust of XP/Vista... And some of us can still find a great deal of use left in old, obsolete systems. Such old PCs may not be able to run Vista adequately, but they are more than capable of running Windows 98 - with plenty of horsepower left for Win9x apps. Unfortunately, all new computers come installed with XP or Vista. Increasingly, even XP is hard to find as it seems like most everyone is forced into Vista. And, remember, both XP and Vista rely on the NTFS file system.

You see, some of us often find ourselves in need of a method of transferring files and other data between a Windows 98/SE/ME machine and an NT/2000/XP or Vista machine. Say you have a friend that came over with his laptop and you want to exchange a lot of large files without burning CDs or DVDs or repeatedly swapping your USB data stick? Or perhaps your friend's new 4 GB USB data stick is not supported in Windows 9x? (I'm quite familiar with both situations.) Or perhaps you are the one who purchased a new Vista/XP laptop and you need a way to share files with your Windows 98 machine(s)?

2) As I mentioned earlier, if full integration of NTFS in Windows 9x is made possible (without the use of an expensive commercial product), then it may be possible for a project such as "KernelEx" to more thorougly emulate and support XP applications in Windows 98 (via a kernel replacement). Wouldn't that be cool?!

Perhaps NTFS is not a perfect file system, and perhaps a Win9x implementation would not be able to support the security features and extras that 2000/XP/Vista natively sports, and for all I know Linux's ext2/ext3 file system may be enormously more efficient and more secure. However, all this is beside the point. NTFS for Windows 9x support would enable more compatibility and ease of file sharing between Win9x and the more "modern" OS's. And, while not perfect, NTFS is widely regarded as being more secure and superior to FAT16 and FAT32 in several different ways.

[bsperan]

Here's another NTFS project I found:
Captive: The first free NTFS read/write filesystem for GNU/Linux

Quote

Project implements the first full read/write free access to NTFS disk drives. You can mount your Microsoft Windows NT, 200x or XP partition as a transparently accessible volume for your GNU/Linux.

This compatibility was achieved in the Wine way by using the original Microsoft Windows ntfs.sys driver. It emulates the required subsystems of the Microsoft Windows kernel by reusing one of the original ntoskrnl.exe, ReactOS parts, or this project's own reimplementations, on a case by case basis. Project includes the first open source MS-Windows kernel API for Free operating systems. Involvement of the original driver files was chosen to achieve the best and unprecedented filesystem compatibility and safety.

Admittedly, this is NTFS support for Linux. And while they did succeed in full implementation, the project appears to no longer be maintained. Though, the source code is still available. I thought it was interesting that they implemented this via WINE, which is the Linux Windows emulator program. Perhaps it would be possible to modify this into a hack to get NTFS support for Win9x? Though, again, a person would still need the original Windows ntfs.sys driver file in order for this to work.

[idisjunction]

bsperan, on Jan 18 2008, 09:42 PM, said:

Perhaps NTFS is not a perfect file system, and perhaps a Win9x implementation would not be able to support the security features and extras that 2000/XP/Vista natively sports, and for all I know Linux's ext2/ext3 file system may be enormously more efficient and more secure. However, all this is beside the point. NTFS for Windows 9x support would enable more compatibility and ease of file sharing between Win9x and the more "modern" OS's. And, while not perfect, NTFS is widely regarded as being more secure and superior to FAT16 and FAT32 in several different ways.

The "security" of NTFS is useful only if the operating system can use the permissions features. 9x cannot, and probably never will, be able to implement those types of partitions. Even Linux, with a comparable security model, currently does not. It sets all permissions to Administrator. Not too much of a problem, since most XP users are administrators anyway, but it's still not a good way to do things.

Plus, NTFS has something called "streams". Data can be hidden in a stream in a way that is almost undetectable. When you open a file with hidden streams, it can load up a sort of "trojan horse."

http://www.windowsecurity.com/articles/Alt...ta_Streams.html

[Ninho]

bsperan, on Jan 19 2008, 03:42 AM, said:

Some of you guys just aren't listening/reading to the words I wrote...

Ninho, on Jan 18 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

Third party support for NTFS in Windows 9x /exists/, it is (was) a commercial product from Wininternals/Sysinternals.

Yes, I've already mentioned (and provided links) for both "NTFS for Windows 98" and "NTFSDOS" (for DOS). However, again, neither of these program solutions will provide what I'm looking for. ...Even the commercial products do not provide full integration.

Sorry, I am listening, you are not ! NTFS for Windows 9x, by Winternals (Mark Russinovich, now with Microsoft) - was a full IFS, read/write. (The free demo was crippled to read-only). DOSNTFS, from the same author, is a different hack by the way : a rescue system, not a Windows IFS.

I am well aware these are no more supported, but they are available from the web - the free versions, and (if you want to check my assertions, for educational purposes only) the for-pay versions can be found also. I did test years ago, and deleted the 'warez' after testing. But I kept NTFSDOS (the free trial, hacked for read-write by myself for my own use) on diskettes as a souvenir. We have Bart PE nowadays, and NTFS access from Linux...


Anyway, my point is full NTFS support in windows 95 is feasible, as demonstrated by the ex- Winternals. If you want to redo it from scratch, great ! My other point, which you may disagree, is that apart for the beauty of the exercise, that effort would be rather moot in the 21st century. If you multi-boot, access your NTFS partition(s) from the OSes that can do so natively, and/or from Linux ; if you have only Win 9x installed on that machine, why would you want an NTFS to begin with ?

Cheers,

--
Ninho

[jaclaz]

Just to make things as clear as possible:

bsperan, on Jan 12 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

Is it theoretically possible to implement support for the NTFS format under Windows 98/SE/ME?

Yes, it is theoretically possible, and actually Wnternals, the "COMMERCIAL" brother company of Sysinternals did that in practice.

bsperan, on Jan 12 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

And if it is possible, then why hasn't someone taken this up yet?

See above, it has been done.
Boot support for an IFS under Win9x/Me it is NOT possible, not even theoretically, unless one re-writes the DOS system files, integrating into them the missing filesystem.

So what is the point ?

Ranting about the fact that noone wrote a FREE app for doing that?

Well, this is the situation as per today, like it or not.

And, given the evolution of Operating Systems, it is very unlikely that anyone with the right knowledge for writing such a piece of code will be willing to do so, but you never know.

Maybe, if Sysinternals were NOT bought by Microsoft, Mark Russinovich might have decided to release the old Winternals driver as Freeware, soon or late, but releasing the driver is evidently against current MS policies, so this makes this event even more unlikely.

Ninho, on Jan 18 2008, 08:58 PM, said:

jaclaz, on Jan 18 2008, 09:06 PM, said:

Well, for the record ....

Apples and oranges.

Yep, that's the idea about the "for the record" innuendo, the post was made trying to add some related information, specifying the limitations of the linked apps, but don't be so sure about the actual differences between Apples and Oranges:
http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/v...1-3-apples.html




jaclaz

[Xeno86]

Well I have began writing an NTFS file system driver at the beginning of this month

But don't hold your breath. It's in VERY early stage and mostly unfunctional.

Some details:
It it based on ntfs-3g and plain 98 DDK. It is a protected mode (Windows only) driver. So far I have been able to integrate ntfs-3g into VxD driver and successfully recognize and mount NTFS partition. Drive letters for NTFS partitions are assigned and disk size is displayed. But that's all I have done so far.

The problem is that the documentation from DDK is not good at all. It lacks examples. Ioctl16 documentation is missing. There are many secret parameters which are not listed but used extensively in VFAT.

Therefore I have a request. I'm searching for this book in digital form:
Inside The Windows 95 File System, by Stan Mitchell
This book is out of print and is not available in my country.
Any other books about Windows 9x filesystems might also be useful.

[jaclaz]

Xeno86, on Jan 19 2008, 07:26 PM, said:

Well I have began writing an NTFS file system driver at the beginning of this month

GOOD news.

I don't have any of the books you cited, maybe something in these:
http://www.pcausa.co...s/ifsqlist.html
http://www.techsoftp.../vxd/sample.htm
http://www.chsw.com/ddk/
may help you?

If the problems you are having are in the IFS/hooking part, you may want to review the Sources for fsdext2:
http://www.dcee.net/...ows/fsdext2.zip
or some of the other programs you can find on that page:
http://www.dcee.net/...ogramm/Windows/


jaclaz

P.S.: The book is available (used) from as low as $2.79:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/156...1981643-2719235
even adding to it the Standard International Shipping rate of $12.49:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/dis...p;nodeId=537734
should be convenient.

Be aware of this, however:
http://www.themobiusproject.com/mirrors/ww.../Resources.html

Mark Russinovich & Bryce Cogswell said:

Inside the Windows 95 File System
Stan Mitchell's coverage of the Windows 95 file system environment is an introduction, with an emphasis on introduction, to the topic. As I learned while developing our full-featured NTFS for Windows 98 driver environment, the book lacks much of the information necessary to develop a production file system driver.

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 21 January 2008 - 06:41 AM

[ricardrosen]

omnifs.exe from symantec Ghost is another tool that allows NTFS access from DOS/Win98.

This post has been edited by ricardrosen: 24 January 2008 - 08:59 AM

[Offler]

I have tested Winternals NTFS Reader/Writer for Win98.

It uses VXD driver with original NTFS driver from windows 2k and it seems to me as reverse engineered form of communication. NTFS read and write is surely possible via VXD driver. Not only theoretically but also practically.

I want to use NTFS filesystem for better video capturing. Therefore i need application at good level and so much reliable as possible. Winternals/Sysinternals is not one of them - disc activity was slightly affected by it, but it shows that this kind of operations are at least possible.