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Install w98 on Large Drives (Above the 137Gb Barrier)

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#1
Fredledingue

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What are the steps to install w98 on a HD which capacity exceeds 137 Gb (aka "large drive")?


JUMP directly here to the LAST EVOLUTIONS on this topic.


From what I have read there are some risks if you don't know what you are doing.
This is how I plan to do.

1-FDISK, originaly, doesn't support large drives. So, first of all, format your new large HD from an existing windows platform.
That can be done from w98 installed on a small HD and using a windows based disk-formating application. The new HD would be installed, of course, as Primary Slave (not as Primary Master) for this operation.
The catch is that you need another physical drive with W98 installed on it to format the new drive because you cannot format a drive Windows is running from even if you do another partition on this drive.

2-How to format? If you installed the right patch to allow w98 to fully use large HD (link) there should be no problem for formatting the whole disc.
However native w98 Scandisk and Disk Defragmenter will crash or corrupt the datas on large partitions unless you updated these application from a fix found on MDGx update thread. But if you forget to do so before defragmenting your partition you will corrupt the datas and may lose everything on it.
So IMO it's preferable to partiton the large drive into several partition of less than 137 Gb (125 GiB).

3-How to install from that?
Shut down the computer.
Swap the HD's in the case, setting the new HD as Primary Master (don't forget to adjust the jumpers). Insert a bootable floppy disk and run the installation from there using basic Dos commands.

4-Once w98 is installed, immediately apply the Break-137Gb-barrier patch (and the 512Mb-Memory-barrier fix at the same time).
As I'v never done it, I'm not sure how the w98 installation will react on the large drive since the patch cannot be applied before the installation. Theoricaly there is no problem until you fill the drive beyond the 137 Gb barrier.
But several partitions could already consist of elementary datas beyond that limit and therefore be erased or corrupted - I don't know.

Please help me if you have experience in this matter.

Edited by Fredledingue, 08 July 2008 - 04:12 PM.

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#2
fishindude

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Why not clone your existing 98 onto the new HD, Fredledingue? The patch would already be there, along with your software. Unless you want the benefits of a fresh install. Xclone works great for this.

#3
Eck

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FDISK from the updated version installed by the Windows Update for it does support the larger drives. It just shows you an incorrect figure. It's a cosmetic defect but it works fine.

That update does NOT install into the folder that Add/Remove uses to create a Windows Startup floppy, so I just make one and then copy the fixed FDISK from the Windows folder (or Windows/Command, same one) to the floppy, overwriting the old one.

I just did this. But I created a 120GB partition, formatted it FAT32, installed Windows 98SE, installed the Auto-Patcher, and then used Partition Magic 8 to increase the size of the partition to the maximum it allowed. With Partition Magic 8, on large drives it will keep about 15% of the drive as unpartitioned free space. So on my 250GB hard drive I have about 200GB or so as a partition size. About 190GB available for Windows.

Just make sure to go into the Advanced options of msconfig and check to disable scandisk on bad shutdowns.

If you do not have Partition Magic then you can create the full disk with FDISK and format. Again it's just a cosmetic error that it shows the incorrect amount, but Windows will see the whole drive. Have the LLXX 2225 version on a floppy, and hit F8 to bring up the startup menu when Windows Setup reboots the first time. Don't allow it to boot into Windows, but boot to command prompt only, copy the file over to I think the Windows\System\IOSUBSYS folder (check that because I've never done this). Have it replace the one there, ctrl-alt-delete, and then boot normally and have Windows finish its setup.

The advantage is that you'll have use of the whole drive whereas my Partition Magic use reduces that by about 15%. Other than that it's the same thing besides using LLXX's patch in your case and getting the flat buttons on the Close Program box and some other places. MDGx's patch installed with Auto-Patcher doesn't do that. LLXX liked flat buttons and so stuck everyone who uses her patch with it. :(

I left it like that until I installed Norton Utilities 2002. Right before doing the install I unchecked that to allow scandisk on bad shutdowns, rebooted, and installed it. I checked on the install to have it replace Windows Scandisk with Norton DiskDoctor.

I still wouldn't allow DiskDoctor to fix things it finds in its dos mode. Dos doesn't need it, but I still don't trust it except to tell me if there are errors to fix. If it does, I cancel and let Windows boot and then use DiskDoctor within Windows and let it fix things automatically. I set it to not ask for a backup to be made and to turn off the surface scan. That's just time consuming and a hard drive rarely needs a surface scan. And I set it to do its fixes automatically.

That, and SpeedDisk for defragging works fine.

The Windows Me ScanDisc can be used except NOT for the Thorough option and Disc Defragmenter CANNOT be used. So a 3rd party solution must be used.
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#4
j7n

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With Partition Magic 8, on large drives it will keep about 15% of the drive as unpartitioned free space. So on my 250GB hard drive I have about 200GB or so as a partition size.

Is there a good reason why Partition Magic limits FAT32 sizes to 19x Gigs? Are you sure about the 15%? I though it had hard limit, not a percentage of total drive capacity.

#5
galahs

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In general on Win98 you want to keep your partitions at or under 120GB


I personally use a Windows Me bootdisk to do my formatting and partitioning as it supports larger drives.

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#6
Sfor

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Please correct me if I'm wrong

1-Dos doesn't support large drives nor does FDISK. So, first of all, format your new large HD from an existing windows platform.
That can be done from w98 installed on a small HD and using a windows based disk-formating application. The new HD would be installed, of course, as Primary Slave (not as Primary Master) for this operation.
The catch is that you need another physical drive with W98 installed on it to format the new drive because you cannot format a drive Windows is running from even if you do another partition on this drive.


It is not true. DOS does access disk drives using BIOS functions. So, DOS does support LBA48 if the BIOS does. It's a bit funny, but with many motherboards DOS supports larger hard drives then the unpatched Windows does.

So it is possible to partition and format a large disk in DOS.

The simplest way to install Windows on a big HDD is to make the first partition smaller than 128GB. Install the Windows on it, then apply a patch to access the whole HDD.

#7
Eck

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Partition Magic doesn't have a hard limit. If it were a 500GB hard drive it would reserve about 15% just the same as it does on the 250GB I have. And I don't know why, it just states it on the box and when I've partitioned with it I've seen it not let me move that line or raise the size past a certain point.

Dos and the updated 98SE or the Windows Me Startup Disk FDISK have no problems partitioning the whole drive, and neither does format when formatting it. I've used a SATA 250GB hard drive with the full drive partitioned in one big FAT32 by FDISK and format with no troubles. As I said, I just turned off the Scandisc scan on bad shutdown option in msconfig until I got Norton Utilities 2002's DiskDoctor to replace it.

If I weren't using Partition Magic or BootMagic for anything then I'd have just used FDISK and stuck the 48LBA fix on a floppy like I said. But I'm doing the BootMagic (or BCDEasy if using Vista) thing so I don't have to worry about boot loaders when formatting stuff. Grub stays with its distro as does whatever Windows I'm using. I don't care about 20-30GB not being used. Got plenty of room.

I think drives over 160GB make Partition Magic do that, but I'm not certain. Drives smaller than that can be fully used.

With a SATA drive, there isn't even a need for the 48LBA patch because the Windows driver isn't used, rather the Via (or whatever motherboard you have) SATA/RAID driver installed with the Hyperion's (must use an old version like 4.56v otherwise 98SE has problems). Until that's installed Windows runs it in dos compatibility mode. First thing I install though so that gets fixed quickly!

Unfortunately the EPOX boards I'm currently using have a SATA controller problem. So I switched to ATA drives. The EPOX boards have the Non-Maskable Interrupt support that the SBLive and Audigy ms-dos sound drivers need to function. None of my other boards have that. I'd rather lose SATA (I can turn it off on the Epox boards) and have MS-DOS sound in 98SE's MS-DOS Mode so I'm using the Epox. Heh, it also has a defective USB port that will not put through the signal if I have both of one set plugged in. I just put a powered USB hub plugged into one of them and it works perfectly. My other boards have none of these problems but then, no Audigy 2 ZS in dos.
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#8
Fredledingue

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Why not clone your existing 98 onto the new HD, Fredledingue? The patch would already be there, along with your software. Unless you want the benefits of a fresh install. Xclone works great for this.


That's a solution.
As you said, I indeed would like to make a fresh install. In this case it could be possible to do this fresh install on the small HD then transposing it to the large HD.

Now I would like this conversation to be as general as possible, not to discuss my specific case.

Reading on...

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#9
Fredledingue

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Eck,
I think your explaination is clear. Thanks for it.
I summed up the most important things (dropping Norton and Partition Magic stuffs)

FDISK from the updated version installed by the Windows Update for it does support the larger drives. It just shows you an incorrect figure. It's a cosmetic defect but it works fine.

That update does NOT install into the folder that Add/Remove uses to create a Windows Startup floppy, so I just make one and then copy the fixed FDISK from the Windows folder (or Windows/Command, same one) to the floppy, overwriting the old one.
....

Just make sure to go into the Advanced options of msconfig and check to disable scandisk on bad shutdowns.
....

then you can create the full disk with FDISK and format. Again it's just a cosmetic error that it shows the incorrect amount, but Windows will see the whole drive. Have the LLXX 2225 version on a floppy, and hit F8 to bring up the startup menu when Windows Setup reboots the first time. Don't allow it to boot into Windows, but boot to command prompt only, copy the file over to I think the Windows\System\IOSUBSYS folder (that's correct). Have it replace the one there, ctrl-alt-delete, and then boot normally and have Windows finish its setup.
....

SpeedDisk for defragging works fine.

The Windows Me ScanDisc can be used except NOT for the Thorough option and Disc Defragmenter CANNOT be used. So a 3rd party solution must be used.



On my machine I just have a problem with "F8": It doesn't display boot options such as Dos mode etc. It displays somthing else irrelevant and I didn't figured out how to get to the boot options.
The same advice applies for the 512 Mb memory patch. In this case I let the computer fail to boot and then reboot in safe mode. In safe mode I fixed the stuff and it worked. Do you think I can try it like that? Well, I'll see.
Another trick would be to insert a floppy and force it to start on a boot floppy. Then moving the ad-oc file(s), not from the floppy but from the second HD.

--------------

In general on Win98 you want to keep your partitions at or under 120GB


That's what I'm thinking too. But it's interresting to discuss all the possibilities here.
And why 120 Gb and not 137 Gb (125 GiB)?
------------

DOS does access disk drives using BIOS functions. So, DOS does support LBA48 if the BIOS does. It's a bit funny, but with many motherboards DOS supports larger hard drives then the unpatched Windows does.
So it is possible to partition and format a large disk in DOS.



Thanks for this clarification: I4'm going to correct the initial post above.

The simplest way to install Windows on a big HDD is to make the first partition smaller than 128GB. Install the Windows on it, then apply a patch to access the whole HDD.



Are you sure? :blink: I think that doing so you will have to re-partition the whole drive and erase all datas on it.
This even if you just want to add a partition. Or does it depends on the partition/formating utility?

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#10
j7n

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With a SATA drive, there isn't even a need for the 48LBA patch because the Windows driver isn't used, rather the Via (or whatever motherboard you have) SATA/RAID driver installed with the Hyperion's

Has anybody experienced a VIA RAID controller corrupting data in pure DOS (or win98 without the driver installed)?

#11
galahs

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Keeping it under 120GB keeps many utilities like Scandisk happy.






As mentioned above, You must install Windows on a Hard Disk below the 137GB physical limit.

For example, You have a single 240GB Hard Disk divided in 5 partitions.


C: 50GB = Physical 0 - 50GB
D: 30GB = Physical 50GB - 80GB
E: 50GB = Physical 80GB - 130GB
F: 60GB = Physical 120GB - 180GB
G: 60GB = Physical 180GB - 240GB

You could safely install Windows 98 / 98Se / Me on Drive C: D: & E:

You probably could install it on F: but if any data went beyond the 137GB limit problems would arise. You'd probably be safe though if you installed Windows and then applied the patch straight away.

You would get errors if you installed it on drive G: as it is located beyond the 137GB limit.

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#12
BenoitRen

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In general on Win98 you want to keep your partitions at or under 120GB

No, that's already too large. FAT32 gets wasteful at around 30 GB or so.
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#13
Sfor

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The simplest way to install Windows on a big HDD is to make the first partition smaller than 128GB. Install the Windows on it, then apply a patch to access the whole HDD.



Are you sure? :blink: I think that doing so you will have to re-partition the whole drive and erase all datas on it.
This even if you just want to add a partition. Or does it depends on the partition/formating utility?

The problem is to not let Windows to write anything above the 137GB barrier, before the patch is applied. That's all.

So, you can partition the whole drive before the Windows is installed. Or you can englare the first partition with some partition manager (FDisk will certainly not do that) after the LBA48 patch installation. Or you can add more partitions with FDisk, leaving the first one unchanged.

Repartitioning does not mean partitioning from the beginning. If the drive does have an unassigned space it is enough to add another partition and format just a newly added one. Changing the size of a partition is another story, because FDisk can not do it. But, still, the reformat and data loss is not necesary. As, there are partition managers able to manipulate partition sizes. The Partition Magic is the most famous one, I believe. But, versions before 7 were not able to handle LBA48 sized hard drives correctly.

#14
Ponch

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Repartitioning does not mean partitioning from the beginning. If the drive does have an unassigned space it is enough to add another partition and format just a newly added one. Changing the size of a partition is another story, because FDisk can not do it. But, still, the reformat and data loss is not necesary. As, there are partition managers able to manipulate partition sizes. The Partition Magic is the most famous one, I believe. But, versions before 7 were not able to handle LBA48 sized hard drives correctly.

Ranish Partition Manager can replace fdisk and it has a dead simple GUI. It claims "> 128 GiB disk support but only upto 1.99 TiB - UNTESTED". It is also able to resize (with some limitations and no user friendly method) FAT partitions. And it's free and only 64k.
The limitation is partition resizing is that it does not move files, it just changes a few numers in the definitin of the partition. So it is also instant fast. Big plus is also its "quick format".
I've never used fdisk in years unless I didn't have Ranish's "part.exe". And of course I can talk the talk, but I don't have any big disk to test that. :blushing: Cheers.

#15
risk_reversal

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The Partition Magic is the most famous one, I believe. But, versions before 7 were not able to handle LBA48 sized hard drives correctly

My experience with PM is as follows. Started used this prog pre Norton when it was still made by PowerQuest. Version 6 was the first one I tried. PowerQuest stated that this version was tested with HDD up to 40Gb. I used v6 on 60Gb HDDs and had no problems.

When I upgraded a 60Gb HDD to a 120Gb HDD and used v6 to transfer info (60gb ->120gb) it caused errors which resulted in corruption of the MBR of the 120Gb HDD (according to PowerQuest support). After several failed attempts with v6, I purchased v8 (still from PowerQuest) and there were no errors. v8 was apparently safe with drives of 160Gb.

About 2 years ago when I purchased a SATA 250Gb HDD and bought PM8 from Norton this worked fine.

However, I always run PM from the dos diskettes and do not install the prog. It much easier that way and in any case even if the prog is fully installed it will still reboot to dos to make any changes. The only thing I do install is the boot manager BootMagic on the first primary and active partition.

And for total clarity, you can use PM on a new drive to create a partition and format it too by way of the dos diskettes. I also find it a lot faster than FDISK.

I have also tried BiNG (free version) which can handles extremely large HDD. It also works in dos mode and it is also fine. There are of course many more.

Good Luck

Edited by risk_reversal, 27 February 2008 - 05:43 AM.


#16
Eck

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Actually to my surprise, when I used PM8 to expand the size of the partition while I was in Windows, it did not restart into dos to do it. I guess it only needs to do that on NTFS partitions.

This time I had used the PM floppy to initially partition and format 120GB, installed Windows and assorted updates and software including PartitionMagic. Then I expanded the size to the maximum PM allowed, about 200GB of my drive like I said before.

If I had used FDISK I could have use of that 15% that PM leaves as unpartitioned free space, but then I'd be afraid to use PartitionMagic utilities to work with the drive in the future. It keeps that free space for some reason so I just went along with it. I'll never fill it up anyway!

BootMagic works great as a boot loader for my Windows/Linux on the other hard drive dual boot.

You can FDISK the whole thing. Problem is going into SafeMode on first boot, and I did that once for a problem, has Windows continue the installation without the cd available! It does finish, but it was weird not having some of the stuff it copies over after that first boot.

Better to find some way of doing CommandPromptOnly. Maybe holding the ctrl key down? Or tapping F8 instead of holding it? Gotta be some way.

And the Via Sata controllers, with the driver installed on the very first Windows boot and NOT continuing in MS-DOS Compatibility Paging Mode, work fine (except on these 2 stupid Epox boards I have now). No corruption no matter how big. That ESDI.PDR driver isn't used. Installing the 48 bit patch is not needed, but I suppose can't hurt things since the driver it changes isn't being used.

Edited by Eck, 27 February 2008 - 01:51 PM.

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#17
risk_reversal

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If I had used FDISK I could have use of that 15% that PM leaves as unpartitioned free space, but then I'd be afraid to use PartitionMagic utilities to work with the drive in the future. It keeps that free space for some reason so I just went along with it. I'll never fill it up anyway!

I must admit that having used various versions of PM over the past 6-7 yrs, I have never had one instance when PM held back unpartitioned free space that I could not use in the way that you have described.

The only stipulation that I understand exists is that PM requires partitions be <90% full.

Cheers

#18
j7n

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Partition Magic allows to create another partition in the unused space, or divide the disk into 2 big partitions. What it can't do is format a whole 250 GB (decimal gigabyte) hard drive with a single FAT32 partition. So far I have not tried bigger than 250 GB drives.

#19
Fredledingue

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I'm going to try it on a 400 Gb HD.
I'll post the results here. (in one week or so, the time to manage/save the datas which are already on it, on a downsized partition.)

You can FDISK the whole thing. Problem is going into SafeMode on first boot, and I did that once for a problem, has Windows continue the installation without the cd available! It does finish, but it was weird not having some of the stuff it copies over after that first boot.

Better to find some way of doing CommandPromptOnly. Maybe holding the ctrl key down?


That was it! Many thanks! Actualy F8 let me choose the boot drive (floppy, HD, CD-rom etc). :thumbup

I still didn't make up my mind about the size and number of partitions.
Would be fun to have one single partition of 400 Gb, but for safety sake, I may do 3 x 135 Gb or 135 Gb + 265 Gb. Or a 5 Gb partition for Windows and program files, the rest, 395 Gb for documents. That way I could easily ghost it and roll it back by restoring the whole partition whenever I need without affecting the documents.

Edited by Fredledingue, 28 February 2008 - 03:48 AM.

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#20
u2kforever

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So this thread is about, how you cant install a internal HD later then 137GB on WIN98SE

I was thinking about buying a HD , 160GB, i cant use it?

#21
Sfor

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So this thread is about, how you cant install a internal HD later then 137GB on WIN98SE

I was thinking about buying a HD , 160GB, i cant use it?


Please read,... then write.

Edited by Sfor, 28 February 2008 - 02:59 PM.


#22
Ponch

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Maybe holding the ctrl key down?


That was it! Many thanks! Actualy F8 let me choose the boot drive (floppy, HD, CD-rom etc). :thumbup.

Then it's hardware managed, before the OS boots.
+booting DOS 6 in safe mode was achieved by the Ctrl key, maybe not for Win98.

#23
Fredledingue

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Of course it's hardware managed (before OS boots). How else?

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#24
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There's no reason why this hard drive couldn't be used in Windows 98 SE, is there?

http://www.walmart.c...duct_id=4898004

#25
galahs

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yep, it should work.

Just as soon as you install Win98SE install LLXX's 2225 patch or Gapes Unofficial Service Pack 3 beta 1




Personally I'd divide it into at least 2 partitions, each no partition bigger than 120GB (you still need the patches though)

Edited by galahs, 05 March 2008 - 07:23 PM.

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