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Clone easily Windows 98 and XP in the same computer.

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#26
Dude111

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An interesting thread!


How to remove advertisement from MSFN

#27
cannie

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I will start a thread specific to this subject.


It is a very useful program. I didn't even know its existence and I would never have reached to use it properly without your help.

When you clone Windows 98 to any unit on the extended partition you don't have any problem at all because it keeps booting from C drive or from a floppy. You may restore the drive C boot sector by simply running fdisk/mbr and sys a: c:

But if you doubleboot you can't fix a failure this way. You need a backup of the MBR and FAT to restore the bootsector and the files allocation table. And in this point I think this program is an excellent solution.

In this moment the remaining users of Windows 98 are not simpleminded newbies lured by anything new only because it is in, but in many cases prepared people who know what they do and had to fight against commercial interests to keep finding compatible hardware and drivers. As a doubleboot install means to have all possibilities in your hand most of them try it.

I think it is very interesting your idea of starting a thread specific to this subject.

Thank you very much!

#28
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Took a peek into my virtual toolbox and found some more freeware that are very useful for the purposes of this subject. There is a package of three utilities called SRCTOOLS, the author is someone called [The W0rm] and was originally found at this url: http://dos.li5.org (now gone). Google located an exisiting webpage called TechW0rm located here where you can download a 1.1 MB file called TECHW0RM.ZIP that contains a file called Techw0rm.img which holds an impressive collection of DOS utilities ...


The SRCTOOLS, which work under the DOS commandline within Windows are these ...

SrcMbr.com .... save/restore/compare the 512 byte Master Boot Sector
SrcBoot.com ... save/restore/compare the 512 byte Volume Boot Record
SrcFat.com .... save/restore/compare the FAT


Here are the returned commandline options ...

[color="#9932CC"] ==> Srcmbr.com /?[/color]SRCMBR V1.8©2001 - The W0rm -Usage: SRCMBR {drive} {filename} {switch}Switches:   /S - Save MBR to file   /R - Restore MBR from file   /C - Compare MBR to file[color="#9932CC"] ==> Srcboot.com /?[/color]SRCBoot V1.7©2001 - The W0rm -Usage: SRCBoot {drive:} {filename} {switch}Switches:   /S - Save boot sector to file   /R - Restore boot sector from file   /C - Compare boot sector to file[color="#9932CC"] ==> Srcfat.com /?[/color]SRCFat V1.3©2001 - The W0rm -Usage: SRCFat {drive:} {filename} {switch}Switches:   /S - Save fat table to file   /R - Restore fat table from file   /C - Compare fat table to file   /2 - Use the second fat copy
Since these three utilities are useable from batch files they lend themselves nicely to the purpose of automated data collection or critical backup (e.g., in a compiled INNO script). I tested the save function for all three utilities on Win9x on the C: boot drive which is a Seagate 120 GB single partition. These are the exact commands executed within a DOS window with their results ...

SrcMbr.com 0 SRCMBR.BIN /s

... outputs a file called SRCMBR.BIN. It is 512 bytes and is the exact contents of the Master Boot Sector (MBS aka MBR). I verified that it is the data found at offset 0000h. This is called Absolute Sector 0 or CHS:0,0,1. See the above post #25 for details of what is stored in this sector.

SrcBoot.com C: SRCBOOT.BIN /s

... outputs a file called SRCBOOT.BIN. It is 512 bytes and is the exact contents of the Volume Boot Record (VBR) beginning. I verified that it is the data found at offset 7e00h. This is called Absolute Sector 63 or CHS:0,1,1. Note that this single sector is the first of three consecutive sectors that make up the VBR (FAT32 VBR is 3 sectors: Absolute #63-65). There is a Second Copy at Absolute #69-71.

SrcFat.com C: SRCFAT.BIN /s /2

... outputs a file called SRCFAT.BIN. For this 120 GB FAT32 drive the saved FAT is a whopping 14,650,880 bytes. This particular HDD contains 498,433 files and 33,230 folders using up 84.5 GB of the available 111 GB. Note that I used the second FAT copy which is an arbitrary decision since both FAT copies should be identical.

IMHO, these FAT details illustrate the potential for problems under Win9x. This particular system presently has 3 of these Seagate 120 GB drives attached so one could surmise that nearly 45 MB of FAT entries are mapped into RAM by VFAT.VXD (i'm no expert here so go easy!). The numbers could easily greatly increase with modern gigantic drives. I am unclear as to how USB and SATA drives are mapped but I suspect they also increase the RAM burden. I would really love to hear from experts on these matters though.

EDIT: corrected FAT size issue (its size is related to the size of the drive, not the contents of the drive) thanks Ed999.

EDIT: 2009-10-05. Hat tip to Jaclaz :hello: way down this thread in Post #148 for a working link at web.archive.org that contains stuff from the old dos.li5.org. On this page here you can directly download SrcTools (and other stuff) from the archive.

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 05 October 2009 - 01:17 AM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#29
cannie

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I'll try it.
CharlotteTheHarlot, thank you very much for your detailed post.

#30
cannie

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I'll try it.


It works perfect.
Not recommended for newbies!
Thank you again.

Edited by cannie, 04 October 2008 - 01:29 AM.


#31
TheStarman

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First, I'm glad to see some users are still benefiting from my work on the MSWIN4.1 Boot Record, etc., which BTW, you can find at these mirror sites:

http://thestarman.narod.ru/asm/mbr/
http://vertcomp.com/starman/asm/mbr/
http://mirror.href.com/asm/mbr/
http://thestarman.pc...ry.com/asm/mbr/ [may soon go offline permanently]

I dumped my own personal site at dan123.com long ago. My original site at GEOCITIES is still there, but is often blocked due to overuse (its highest in many Google searches); not to mention all the ads there as well.

(NOTE: I reserve the right to use any of this post in my own copyrighted works, and only give MSFN.COM the right to display my words on this web site; Daniel B. Sedory, 6 OCT 2008.)

Someone asked me to stop by here, and I've decided to say a few words about this topic.

I'll discuss the use of FINDPART's Getsect and Putsect programs in this post. Charlotte was quite correct in stating that Putsect, unfortunately, can only write 1 (one) sector to a disk at a time; I'll have more to say about that later on.

Although the following is an important step in using Svend Mikkelsen's FINDPART program to write a sector to disk:

Firstly, I just noticed that FindPart PutSect fails to return the commandline options that FindPart GetSect does. You need to first do this: set findpart=edit. The presence of that environment string 'unlocks' the more dangerous features of FindPart.

You still need to provide all of the information between the "<" and ">" markers shown below, or else Putsect will not write anything to your hard disk(s)! The only optional switches are those between the brackets ("[" and "]"):

Usage: Findpart Putsect <disknumber> <cylinder> <head> <sector> <filename>
<cylinders> <hash> [checkfile <checkfilename>] [force]


This means that even the easiest way to use Putsect; i.e., using the "force" switch, you must still include the total number of cylinders in your disk and even a dummy hash value! Here's an example of the only way you can save a copy of your Master Boot Record (MBR) sector, and then restore it using Putsect:

1. Save the MBR contents using:

findpart getsect 1 0 0 1 1 mbr.bin noheader

2. Use any other utility, or Svend's FINDPART itself, to determine the number of cylinders in your disk. For example, I used Svend's FPART495.BIN file (from inside his "fp495dos.zip" download) as a floppy boot diskette (it uses FREEDOS and HXLdr32 V1.9.1) on a 299 MiB disk running DOS 5.0 (under BOCHS; http://bochs.sourceforge.net/ ) and this command:

findpart tables

Returned the following:
A:\>findpart tablesFindpart, version 4.95 - for Windows 95/98/ME/NT/2000/XP.Copyright Svend Olaf Mikkelsen, 1999-2008.OS:  Windows 92.2337203685478.0.2222        Partition tables:Disk: 1   Cylinders: 609   Heads: 16   Sectors: 63   MB: 299-PCyl N ID -----Rel -----Num ---MB -Start CHS- --End CHS-- BS  CHS    0 1*06       63   306369   149    0   1  1  303  15 63 OK   OK    0 2 05   306432   306432   149  304   0  1  607  15 63      OK  304 1 06       63   306369   149  304   1  1  607  15 63 OK   OK

The only piece of data you need to focus on above is the "Cylinders: 609" which tells you the total number of cylinders for this particular disk.

2. b. Don't forget to enter: "set findpart=edit"

3. Now in order to write the file "mbr.bin" (which must also be exactly 512 bytes) to the first sector of your first hard disk (which, in this case, has 609 cylinders), you must enter:

findpart putsect 1 0 0 1 mbr.bin 609 00000000 force

Note: The 'dummy hash' value is eight (8) zeros in length; it must be 8 digits.

From all of the above, you can see that Svend takes writing to a disk as something VERY serious; only for experts! One of the reasons he did this is to ensure that when he sent a repaired sector to a client, he could know absolutely for sure that the data would only be written to the correct disk exactly as he intended; thus the reason for the hashing of the file and a predetermined cylinder value. So, putsect is far from being user friendly. :unsure:

This is all very unfortunate, since it would have been a great complement to what many have found a very useful program; that is Getsect. By giving someone a Getsect command, or even putting it inside a Batch file for them and telling them to just run it, I can get any reasonable number of sectors from anywhere on a hard disk sent back to me in an email, knowing I'll usually be able to see their raw disk sectors as if I were there with a disk editor myself. :thumbup

One other item Charlotte mentioned may be very important to some users:

NB: I believe it is possible for BIOS or Windows based AntiVirus Boot Sector protection to interfere with this operation. But lets not cross this bridge unless we have to.


If you do have an AV program or enabled control over your hard disks' MBR sector via the BIOS, you need to remember that after you allow findpart to write to the MBR sector, those AV programs must be updated with a copy of the newly written MBR -- if you purposely changed its contents! Anytime you add or delete partitions to or from a hard disk, you need to update that data. Countless users of Norton AV have messed up their brand new install of a second OS by forgetting this, and when they reboot their computer, NAV complained about a possible virus in the MBR sector and without thinking, they allowed NAV to overwrite their new MBR with an old copy, then found out they could no longer boot into the new OS next time!!! :w00t:

PS: If you ever accidentally delete one of your disk's partitions, you can easily get it back by using TESTDISK ( http://www.cgsecurit...g/wiki/TestDisk ) :thumbup


La8r, Daniel (TheStarman).

#32
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Daniel, thanks for stopping by and welcome to MSFN. I really appreciate those MBR details on your site! That is some collection of information. Must be a labor of love.

3. Now in order to write the file "mbr.bin" (which must also be exactly 512 bytes) to the first sector of your first hard disk (which, in this case, has 609 cylinders), you must enter:

findpart putsect 1 0 0 1 mbr.bin 609 00000000 force

Note: The 'dummy hash' value is eight (8) zeros in length; it must be 8 digits.

Thanks for this. My bad on the original incorrect commandline. I will edit that earlier post from myself ASAP. Alzheimers must be setting in! I cannot for the life of me remember what I used to write multiple saved sectors back to a FAT32 HDD. Maybe it was DISKEDIT, does that have a facility to import a block of sectors and write them out to disk?

P.S. please feel free to correct anything else. For example, back in Post #25 where I diagrammed the MBS for my Seagate 120 it looks like the 'NT Drive Serial Number' may be misaligned by one byte. The listed bytes are correct from the actual Absolute Sector 0. Just wondering if it looks strange.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#33
cannie

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After your excellent explanation, if you allow me it, I suggest it would be very good to summarize in a few lines the sequence of the command lines, first to save the mbr and afterwards to restore it.

I think it would help a lot.

Thank you very much.

#34
Ed999

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Although the PUTSECT command can only write a 512 byte file -

(a) the program MBRutilD.exe can save and restore the entire TRACK 0 (CHS 0-0-1 to 0-0-63), but ONLY for Disk 1, and

(b) the program SRCFAT.COM can (as pointed out) save and restore an entire FAT.

More details are given in my posts at Routine to BACKUP and RESTORE key sectors of a FAT32 Hard Disk

That post outlines a strategy (a BATCH file strategy) for making effective use of PUTSECT to create the necessary backups of the key sectors in a FAT32 partition, bearing in mind that usually only a handful of sectors are involved (as most of the 63 sectors in Track 0 are blank in a standard FDISK partition structure).

As for the FAT, for a given size of partition the size of the FAT and of the backup FAT will always be constant. The FAT is allocated a fixed size on the creation of the partition, and does not vary in size as files or directories are added or deleted.

Backing up the first FAT or second FAT for a particular partition will therefore always give a file of the same size, regardless of whether the files on that partition occupy 80 KB or 80 GB, making it straightforward to identify which sectors are used by the FAT.

In practice this is fairly unimportant, as SRCFAT.COM determines the sector values for itself and does not need any user input to save the FAT (and/or the backup FAT) successfully.

Edited by Ed999, 07 October 2008 - 09:51 AM.


#35
cannie

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More details are given in my posts at Routine to BACKUP and RESTORE key sectors of a FAT32 Hard Disk


Very good link.

Thank you very much

Edited by cannie, 07 October 2008 - 03:56 PM.


#36
cannie

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From all the programs which I have known thanks to mentions made in the precedent posts, many of which are excellent, I would do an special mention of MBRUTILD.EXE.

I have downloaded it from here:

http://mirror.href.c...otToolsRefs.htm

It is an authentic jewel!

Simple and fast, makes MBR backup and restore extremely easy, even for newbies! I don't know why those excellent works are so much ignored.

HTH

#37
CharlotteTheHarlot

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That post outlines a strategy (a BATCH file strategy) for making effective use of PUTSECT to create the necessary backups of the key sectors in a FAT32 partition, bearing in mind that usually only a handful of sectors are involved (as most of the 63 sectors in Track 0 are blank in a standard FDISK partition structure).

That is a great link with lots of useful information in one place. Excellent implementation as well.

I use a slightly different strategy for a slightly different purpose. Rather than picking only the commonly written areas containing structural information, instead I grab the big continuous chunk from Absolute Sector 0 to the first FAT, 95 sectors in all, the sum total is a tiny file of only 48,640 bytes. This is done in data collection snapshots, which also include registry and system files and log information. Snapshots are compared often, especially after running suspect apps and installers.

Previously I grabbed only those key sectors described in the link. That lasted until I figured out that some programs were writing information outside of the proper file system, into those supposedly empty areas. PowerQuest was one. The infamous C_Dilla protection schemes another. Some burn-in programs and computer makers tattoo information in here. I find it real interesting to track these changes, hence I make these snapshots often and diff the files and then crosscheck logs to nail down the culprit when a change is detected.

I formerly used a batch file myself but switched over to InnoSetup to be able to compile a single portable EXE that includes within itself all necessary files. The EXE executes programs like FindPart and RegEdit, collects the output of these programs and then uses RAR or WinRar to roll them up into a nice dated snapshot package.

As for the FAT, for a given size of partition the size of the FAT and of the backup FAT will always be constant. The FAT is allocated a fixed size on the creation of the partition, and does not vary in size as files or directories are added or deleted.

Right you are, I stand corrected! I just verified by comparing the FATs of three Seagate 120 GB drives as dumped by SrcFat. Each were in fact 14,650,880 in size, but were filled to different levels reflecting the different amount of files per disk. So the FAT size is clearly related to the size of the drive, not the contents of the drive. Thanks.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#38
Ed999

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I would have been happy to save the first 95 sectors as a single backup file, if there was a utility which could restore it. But both FINDPART.EXE and its earlier incarnation PUTSECT.EXE can only write a single sector to disk.

Even MBRutilD.exe will only restore the first track, i.e. the first 63 sectors; and that only for the Primary Master disk. Although it is theoretically possible to swap disks around on the IDE cables in order to use the program to restore the first 63 sectors of any disk (by making each in turn the Primary Master), it is not a convenient solution. And opening the computer's case is not something to be recommended to inexperienced users!

What's needed is a software solution: hence my Batch file, which saves and restores the six key sectors individually (more if the disk has more than a single partition).

You seem to recollect using another program in the past, one that could write a single 95 sector backup file back to disk. However, I've not come across such a program for FAT32. There used to be utilities for old-style FAT12 disks which could save and restore all the first 63 sectors (which was where the FAT was stored) - just as MBRutilD.exe now does for FAT32 disks.

The function of saving the FAT as a single backup file has now become SRCFAT.EXE, which saves and restores millions of sectors at once, but which only starts at sector 96.

Someone who knows what they are doing (i.e. not me!) could probably re-engineer SRCFAT.EXE to save sectors 1 to 95 instead of sectors 96 to 14 million. But even Svend thinks that such a tool is too dangerous, judging by the precautions he has woven around PUTSECT and FINDPART - which limit the PUTSECT function to a single sector - which is presumably why no one has so far created one.

Edited by Ed999, 11 October 2008 - 11:51 PM.


#39
cannie

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and that only for the Primary Master disk.


Have you tried switching the active main partition consecutively from one disk to the other using PARTITION MANAGER?

Edited by cannie, 12 October 2008 - 01:42 AM.


#40
Ed999

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You can switch the disks around physically, changing them over on the IDE cables and resetting the jumpers appropriately, but there is no way to fool the program into working on any disk other than the Primary Master.

The program can't be made to believe a disk is the Primary Master by reassigning the active partition to the Primary Slave or Secondary Master.

#41
cannie

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You can switch the disks around physically


The only problem in this is that you must open the box to unplug/plug every new HD.

I wonder if there is any procedure to keep the master HD out of the box while using it, so that the change may be done easily, or if it is possible to use any existing device to switch from outside the connection of two main HD into the motherboard, as it happens in many other fields, i.e. in Sat-tv to switch between external parabole antennas.

Edited by cannie, 05 November 2008 - 03:30 AM.


#42
SAE140

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You can switch the disks around physically


The only problem in this is that you must open the box to unplug/plug every new HD.

I wonder if there is any procedure to keep the master HD out of the box while using it, so that the change may be done easily, or if it is possible to use any existing device to switch from outside the connection of two main HD into the motherboard, as it happens in many other fields, i.e. in Sat-tv to switch between external parabole antennas.


Could you not use a Hard Drive Caddy ?


Ok - cloning Windows - I don't know if the following will be of any use to anyone, but I've been cloning Win9X on a regular basis for some years now.

The reason I've been doing this is that I run my systems 'without a condom' - that is, without any form of virus protection in place. I found that continuous-scanning anti-viral software would slow my machines down to a pathetic crawl. So I unloaded 'em, and resorted to daily scanning with 'Antidote' (which is unfortunately no longer available) instead.
What quickly became clear was that the same viruses were getting through: specifically, 'Kernel32', 'Natal', 'Brasil', 'Marco', 'Scrsvr', 'Svr32', 'Instit', 'Speedy', 'Puta!!', and 'Alevir'.
The way I dealt with these was to create several short (2 byte) .txt files and give each file the same name as each of these viruses - then simply changed the attributes of each .txt file to Archive and Read-Only. This technique has sucessfully prevented any further attacks from these viruses.

Some malware attacks place a start-up link in the win.ini file, so to target this problem I've found it useful to have a 'clean' copy of win.ini (re-named to win.xxx) with which I over-write the existing (and possibly corrupted) win.ini using a simple "copy c:\windows\win.xxx c:windows\win.ini" line in the autoexec.bat file.

I've still had problems with the 'Dupator' and 'Spaces' viruses which corrupt any .exe files they find, which is why I don't clone Win98 using the methods being proposed in this thread. Instead, I use Symantec's Ghost to create a primary partition image file, which I incrementally update with each new program added, and store on a secondary partition or secondary hard drive. Then, when I have sufficient Ghost image files, these get burned onto a CD.

It's a system I've been using for several years now, with no problems thus far ....

#43
cannie

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@'SAE140' Could you not use a Hard Drive Caddy ?

I have two caddies and two external HD, but they connect using USB2, and what I would like to know is the way to keep out of the box the main drive, if ever exists a way to do it. In fact I've never seen it until now.

Concerning viruses, I never had such a virus invasion. In fact I've never been affected by any virus at all for years. In any case, I have a .rar file of C:\Windows on a CD and when anything goes wrong I boot D:\Windows, format C: and rebuild the whole C:\Windows from scratch in less than 2 minutes.

All other folders (Program Files and My Documents) are in other drives, so I never loose any information at all.

Edited by cannie, 05 November 2008 - 11:59 PM.


#44
SAE140

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@'SAE140' Could you not use a Hard Drive Caddy ?

I have two caddies and two external HD, but they connect using USB2, and what I would like to know is the way to keep out of the box the main drive, if ever exists a way to do it. In fact I've never seen it until now.


I actually meant an IDE hard-drive caddy, the kind which fit internally and connect onto the standard IDE cable - not a USB caddy - I should have been more explicit. I've also seen these described as "Removable Frame Mobile Racks".
http://www.acme-tech...mobile_rack.htm

These older-style IDE caddies have a frame which fits into a standard 5.25" bay, with a swappable caddy containing a 3.5" hard drive which slides into the frame. With a few caddy trays, it then becomes possible to swap drives around and if the caddy is set as primary boot, then it's possible to change complete systems instantly, without opening-up the case. I don't know if this is what you have in mind ?

Of course you can boot from a USB-HDD caddy, but only if your motherboard supports booting from a USB device.

#45
cannie

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Hi SAE 140!

I didn't understand you. This could be a good solution, I'll try to find the parts.

Thank you!

#46
SAE140

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Hi SAE 140!

I didn't understand you. This could be a good solution, I'll try to find the parts.

Thank you!


You're welcome.

I've found a better site - with (UK) prices.
http://pctradestore....u...&subcatid=0

3rd from the bottom: " 3.5" Internal IDE to IDE Mobile Hard drive Rack Caddy with 2 Fans and Key Lock". As you can see these can be sourced quite cheaply now, as USB-caddies have become more fashionable.

My only negative criticism of these devices is that they are often fitted with cheap Chinese fans, and as the lubricant dries out they start to vibrate. I've tried re-lubing the fans but eventually settled for disconnecting them completely, and removing the HDD tray top instead to prevent heat build-up.

Good luck.

#47
cannie

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Hi SAE 140!

I didn't understand you. This could be a good solution, I'll try to find the parts.

Thank you!


You're welcome.

I've found a better site - with (UK) prices.
http://pctradestore....u...&subcatid=0

3rd from the bottom: " 3.5" Internal IDE to IDE Mobile Hard drive Rack Caddy with 2 Fans and Key Lock". As you can see these can be sourced quite cheaply now, as USB-caddies have become more fashionable.

My only negative criticism of these devices is that they are often fitted with cheap Chinese fans, and as the lubricant dries out they start to vibrate. I've tried re-lubing the fans but eventually settled for disconnecting them completely, and removing the HDD tray top instead to prevent heat build-up.

Good luck.



Thank you very much SAE140!

Greetings.

#48
cannie

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Moved to the first post of this thread.

Edited by cannie, 29 March 2009 - 01:39 AM.


#49
jaclaz

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Two things, just for the record.
1) be aware when you buy one of those trays, that they have 80 leads cables, quite a few of the cheap ones have the old IDE 40 lead cable, and if you have a newish/faster drive you'll experience problems.
2) @cannie, it depends on a number of factors, NT 4.00 was doable on FAT 16 volumes.
http://www.forensicf...m...opic&t=2159

The "old" (and "poor man" ;) ) way to defrag a NT 4.00 Workstation in the old times (some of you might remember how NT 4.0 did not come with a built-in defragging tool) was exactly this, I had two installs of NT on two separate partitions, booted to the second (the "emergency") install, used xcopy to copy all the files from "main" partition to a third one, formatted (and optionally wiped) the first one, then xcopied back the files.


Windows 2K introduced a complication:
http://www.msfn.org/...showtopic=90495
but it was still doable, at least on FAT 16 and 32 volumes.

I never tried with XP, nor with NTFS volumes.

Most probably robocopy or strarc:
http://www.ltr-data.se/opencode.html
or some similar software may be able to handle the permissions.

About XCOPY,
Nick Rage:
http://www.duxcw.com...pyhd/cpyhd2.htm
is to be credited for the:
http://www.msfn.org/...opic=24650&st=9

I SERVe Kentucky Fried Chicken Hot!

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 23 December 2008 - 07:36 AM.


#50
cannie

cannie

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Thanks, jaclaz, for your kind advice.

Merry Christmas!




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