[jcarle]

Heck, I had to rewrite part of my Windows Updates Downloader to fit within the Vista development guidelines, why should I start complaining and ranting and raving about how it's all Vista's fault because it won't let me store strings in the HKLM registry keys without throwing up in UAC. Vista's done nothing wrong, I'm the one who needed to change the way I store my application settings.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Zxian, on Aug 23 2008, 10:14 AM, said:

I'll give you an example of how "tweaks" are costing a company more money and time (i.e. my time).

I've been asked to run IT for a small decor company (they do the decor for conferences, weddings, etc etc). They've got four systems around the office, of varying age and performance. I'll start with the "slowest" since it's most relevant to this discussion.

Remember all those people who swore that FAT32 was faster than NTFS? Look back to threads from when XP was first released and people migrated from Win98 to XP. You'll find countless reviews, threads, and articles saying that NTFS is slow and "bloated", etc etc. The previous IT setup the partitions on this system as follows:

C: - 1GB FAT - for pagefile
D: - 4GB FAT32 - for Windows installation, some programs
E: - 8GB FAT32 - for data and programs that didn't fit on D:

Now... the main problem - there's a measly 200MB of free space on D:, since the twit wasn't smart enough to allow enough space for the system. Secondly - why would you put the pagefile on a separate FAT partition? You're increasing the disk head travel time, slowing things down greatly. Finally, they're FAT/FAT32 partitions.

By putting the pagefile on the C: drive he put it in the fastest area of the drive. Having the pagefile all over the drive and fragged into a million pieces is slower than that. I do not agree with FAT32 usage on a XP system however.

Zxian, on Aug 23 2008, 10:14 AM, said:

The guy had disabled the Network Location Awareness service, bringing up this exact problem for computers connected to the network. Honestly - why would you disable this?

The Network Location Awareness service? I never had a problem with my connection icons getting stuck to "Acquiring network address", since i have them hidden anyway. If you know your connection is fine, why have those blinking thingies there all of the time?

Zxian, on Aug 23 2008, 10:14 AM, said:

@Th3_uN1Qu3 - If your programs don't work properly in Vista, you should also be talking to your devs to update their software. You're talkingabout making it all Microsoft's fault, like ZA tries to do here. Filezilla is one of the examples that I give to all my friends. The XML settings version threw up UAC warnings left right and center, since you're trying to write files to the Program Files directory. There are countless documents out there, direct from Microsoft to developers, telling them to save settings in AppData or in the user's registry (HKCU - not HKLM). Poor programming is the cause for most UAC prompts out there.

UAC? Well, i thought of it as a good idea. But when i saw it throwing prompts about confirming control panel actions, i said to hell with it and got rid of it promptly. In which way a million nags make the system more secure? Inexperienced users are going to click Yes anyway.

And... what if there are no more devs updating that software? AVIPreview is no longer under development, and my programming knowledge isn't enough to fix it, besides, my favorite debugger (OllyDbg) does not work in Vista! Also i have some older games that need the ADPCM codec (which worked fine under XP and Vista 32). Who's gonna patch those? Well, me. I started coding my own patches for those games, the progress is relatively slow but i reached the point where i know what i have to do, just have to finish the patch code (i work in Python).

Of course poor programming is the cause of most errors. The point is that those "poorly programmed apps" have worked for years on subsequent Windows versions and they suddenly stopped working on Vista 64.

This post has been edited by Th3_uN1Qu3: 23 August 2008 - 09:19 AM

[CoffeeFiend]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 23 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

By putting the pagefile on the C: drive he put it in the fastest area of the drive. Having the pagefile all over the drive and fragged into a million pieces is slower than that.

It's defragged alright, but it still increases head travel by a lot beteen any files and the pagefile, also slowing things down a lot. It can be on your usual partition with your OS, and not be scattered all over the place (defrag works nice).

As for your handful of app compatibility problems, I'm not so quick at blaming Vista.

Like I said before, VirtualDub & VirtualDubMod work perfectly here. AviPreview is working fine too.

And from OllyDbg's home page:

Quote

OllyDbg is a 32-bit assembler level analysing debugger for Microsoft® Windows®

Emphasis mine. And you're using a 64 bit OS, and blaming the OS for compatibility problems? (especially for something like a debugger) I don't use it often personally, but I had no issues on Vista x86.

Looks like most of your problems are related to the transition to x64 (you also mentioned your older games worked fine on Vista x86), and not Vista itself.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

crahak, on Aug 23 2008, 06:59 PM, said:

It's defragged alright, but it still increases head travel by a lot beteen any files and the pagefile, also slowing things down a lot. It can be on your usual partition with your OS, and not be scattered all over the place (defrag works nice).

By putting it onto the OS drive it'll be after the OS files, there will still be head travel between the OS files and the pagefile, and on top of that it's also in a slower area of the drive. And it'll still not be any closer to any other files...

Quote

Looks like most of your problems are related to the transition to x64 (you also mentioned your older games worked fine on Vista x86), and not Vista itself.

Well, partly yes. But Vista x86 is SLOW AS HELL, and can't use more than 3.25GB RAM on my machine. What i don't get is if WOW64 has the same files as Vista x86 (which it does), then why doesn't it work for 32-bit apps the same way Vista x86 did?

As about OllyDbg, yes, it's 32-bit. But how the heck am i supposed to debug 32-bit programs with a 64-bit debugger?

What's funny is that those games were coded in Visual C++ 6.0 and use the Microsoft ADPCM codec. Microsoft not supporting programs written with their own software. That's funny.

[CoffeeFiend]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 23 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

By putting it onto the OS drive it'll be after the OS files

Hmmm, no. No defragmenter I've used in a lot of years is that horribly bad. It'll place it somewhere decent. Companies who write defragmenters just might know a bit about file placement, they only make a living out of it

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 23 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

there will still be head travel between the OS files and the pagefile

Some, but definitely nowhere near as much as having it on another partition.

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 23 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

and on top of that it's also in a slower area of the drive

The inner part is somewhat faster, but when you increase the amount of seek drastically for every sector you need, you're not gaining anything, much the inverse.

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 23 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

And it'll still not be any closer to any other files...

Except, it is. Unless you use the worst defragmenter I've ever heard of.

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 23 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

But Vista x86 is SLOW AS HELL, and can't use more than 3.25GB RAM on my machine.

I don't have any speed issues with Vista x86 myself, it's just as fast as XP on my box. As for not seeing all your RAM as you hit 4GB or more, sure, that's an issue. And the fix to that is x64, but yes, the transition isn't always smooth because of various issues (notice I'm not running x64 yet?) However, the x64 transition not being as smooth as you like doesn't make Vista itself "incompatible" (you'd have the same kind of issues with the 64 bit versions of Win XP or 2003)

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 23 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

Microsoft not supporting programs written with their own software. That's funny.

It's not really that funny, nor surprising. Eventually they phase out some old things, and stop supporting them. In this case, a codec seemingly. With x64, they also stopped supporting other stuff, like the Microsoft.Jet.OLEDB.4.0 ODBC provider, or providing components like ntvdm.

[jcarle]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 23 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

What i don't get is if WOW64 has the same files as Vista x86 (which it does), then why doesn't it work for 32-bit apps the same way Vista x86 did?

As about OllyDbg, yes, it's 32-bit. But how the heck am i supposed to debug 32-bit programs with a 64-bit debugger?

You can't fit a fridge into a car but you can fit a dishwasher into a truck. How does this not make sense to you?

64-bit applications are aware of and are capable of handling 32-bit, but how can you expect 32-bit apps to handle 64-bit when there wasn't even such a thing back when most of this stuff was written?

"One common recurring problem is that some programmers assume that pointers have the same length as some other data type. These programmers assume they can transfer quantities between these data types without losing information. Those assumptions happen to be true on some 32-bit machines (and even some 16-bit machines), but they are no longer true on 64-bit machines. The C programming language and its descendant C++ make it particularly easy to make this sort of mistake. In most programming environments on 32-bit machines, pointers, "int" types, and "long" types are all 32 bits wide. However, in many programming environments on 64-bit machines, "int" variables are still 32 bits wide, but "long"s and pointers are 64 bits wide." - Wikipedia

Again, how is that Vista's fault?

[Kelsenellenelvian]

jcarle, on Aug 22 2008, 07:20 PM, said:

Here's another one, straight off of NewEgg...

• Motherboard : Foxconn P45A-S - $119.99
  
• Processor : Intel E2180 - $69.99
  
• Memory : 2GB OCZ DDR2-800 - $42.99
  
• Video Card : EVGA 7200GS - $29.99

Total cost : $427.92

More then enough for anyone's average use.

OMG!!! That is almost better than what I have to use everyday!

I have an E2140 Bsel modded to 2143mHz
A (currently burned out) Motherboard It was a super cheap ECS P.O.S! That Foxconn is ALOT better than what I had
And a gigabyte 7300se
With 2 gigs DDR2 667 ram.

Hell that is better...

This post has been edited by Kelsenellenelvian: 23 August 2008 - 12:24 PM

[Poolsharkzz]

You guys still haven't given up yet, have you?

I mean, look at the score, if I was in YOUR shoes, I would have left the field long ago!

That's Okay, I am enjoying this! Why? I have to be honest, I've learned a thing or two (from Mr. Snrub - disable via Bios - I've never thought of that!) and I am sure you have....

Let's respond to a few statements:

One quick example: Dell Vostro 200 This was not a viable example, as I pointed out. You failed here - the low-end and high-end examples I pointed out are real world examples of a home-based system that I would only deal with. I'm sorry, what you described is junk.

The e2180 processor: Junk for my uses. While I will agree 100% that this processor would be a HUGE upgrade versus his PIII - It is not what I would recommend for Vista Home Premium or especially Vista Ultimate - I would not recommend these Operating Systems in the first place - I am not getting into why except when Microsoft had to release a 15 page PDF File explaining how to "tweak" performance out of a default Vista setup AND change the the so-called "Minimum System Requirements" for Vista - Foobar!!!!

When I am recommending hardware to a customer, I am not only looking at today, but I am also looking at tomorrow - meaning that I am looking at not today's OS (Vista) but tomorrow's OS (Windows 7) AND looking ahead at the next version of Windows (Windows "8"???).

Why? System hardware should last 8-10 years at a minimum - if you take care of it.

Hell, I have a box here that was built in May, 1996! (and still going strong!)

If you purchase top-end "today", "tomorrow" all you need to do is purchase the latest updated OS.

If the customer is dead set on an OS upgrade - then it's either Vista Home Premium or Vista Ultimate.

I have never had anyone ask for Vista Business. I've had very few ask for Vista in general!

Will the e2180 processor run Windows 7 well? or run Windows "8" well? - No, I really doubt it, not if Micro$oft keeps with it's history of bloated, buggy, newly released operating systems.

Will the e2180 processor run XP SP3 well? YES

What about the e2180 processor running Vista Home Premium or Vista Ultimate well?

"Without too much hassle" is too much hassle for me - or my customers!

"Systems straight off of NewEgg: I would NEVER use NewEgg or any other website like NewEgg for one reason - no one year support warranty as Dell offers. I do not want to deal with the daily drama.

Let's look at those prices in "my" real world:

If I went down that route, I would have to place a 25% mark-up on all components, add in the cost of shipping charges First Class from southern California, not to mention my hourly rates for putting the components together and setting up the system complete with security and maintenance programs, tweaking the security, internet connection, cleaning out the registry, disabling unnecessary services, slimming it down a bit, a delivery charge (trip charge) to the customers home, a set-up / installation charge, State and Local Taxes, and a basic overview "basic training" of what I did to their new system...

and we still haven't added in the extra costs of a decent printer! Are ya learning something yet?

For Chicago, the 3rd largest market in North America - in the neighborhoods that I mostly do business in - Gold Coast, Magnificent Mile, Streeterville, Lincoln Park, Down-Town, Up-Town, North & South Loop, Lake Shore Drive, Hollywood, Lake Forest, Highland Park, etc. This is not Canada nor is this Idaho -

My typical customer is 45+ years old, lives in a 500k (or more) home, usually drives a 70k car to his 55-60 hour per week senior management position, has 3 children and a "trophy" wife with fake boobs who loves to shop.

Your quotes of $427.92 and $324.00 and "sub-$500 PCs" are not my "real world" examples - not here in my market - not here for the majority of my customers - not here by a long shot -

They EXPECT to pay the amounts I describe - otherwise they feel they are not getting QUALITY - like I said: "junk".

I could only imagine what would happen to me if I sent one of them a box of components!

"Besides, who said it had to run Vista in the first place?" Are we now going backwards on the OS as well? You look forward to the next and future Operating System, as I already explained.

"especially when you look at the average IT wages these days" Best Buy's "Geek Squad" here in Chicago charge $150.00 per hour for home service, not to mention the $95.00 "trip charge"...

You see, I think you are equating your general area of Canada or Idaho with the rest of the world and not thinking that maybe things are a bit different in Chicago versus the coffee shop where you at!

Look here:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouth...IT10000048.html

and here:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouts...amp;x=0&y=0

http://salary.monster.com/salarywizard/lay...amp;x=0&y=0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Loop

"I'll give you an example of how "tweaks" are costing a company more money and time" Now here is a real world example! Even though this example has no bearing on a home-based system - you are right, every XP system I have ever dealt with I converted it over to NTFS right away- it's part of my tweaking - and I find 9-10 of the systems set with the "default settings" of FAT32 - just another reason to tweak!

The Network Location Awareness Service for a home based system should be set to "Manual".

"that every 15 year old knows" Most 15 year olds are too busy "tweaking" their profiles on MySpace, Facebook, and YouTube - or creating cool Visual Styles.

UAC? is the biggest mistake Vista has - a million nags does not mean "more secure". Junk.

"Oh boy, I had missed that post..." This is because you do not READ the posts.

In closing, I was going to give you guys a general breakdown of my business, services offered, and how to go about it - giving you folks a way to effectively use some of that energy...

Instead I am going to suggest that you get off the couch that your brother left to you as a "hand-me-down" before he went off to college and instead of you joining him, you decided to spend a few years living in your parent's basement - go to the coffee-house, "sip on a latte", use the free WiFi, and tally up the score...

poolsharkzz - 1000 - perfect score! Well, I'm biased here, but I am still waiting for someone to tell me if his Uncle's system NEEDS any of the services I listed.

Th3_uN1Qu3 - 995 - I'm really impressed! and your what, only 18? - smart kid - some of you should take his lead.

Mr. Snrub - 998 - I have a feeling that you holding back on a wealth of information - sorry the debate became quite "unhealthy" - I didn't throw the first punch.

Zxian - 0 - "NEVER disable the DNS client service" - sorry, that and those out of the blue statements before reading the first posts really hurt you.

jcarle - 25 - +500! - the NewEgg quote really got you - bonus for giving solid advice to Th3_uN1Qu3 and a few bonus points for trying to play ball in my court without knowing anything about the court you're playing in..

crahak - 10 - +750! - Vostro 200 and "dirt cheap" is where you went wrong - bonus for looking a bit like Bret Hart's old tag-team partner - Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart - miss them guys!

Kelsenellenelvian - 0 - +250 - sorry, but you came in way too late in the 4th quarter to make any difference, but points for trying.


* Note to all:

I don't walk around my neighborhood tweaking XP installs either - I just was smart enough to make a living out of it!

Bashing what I do or how I do it or where I do it isn't going to make any bit of difference - I'm still gonna get paid! Are you?

"Queue" Donald Trump's theme song.... "Money, Money, Money, Money..... Money!!!!"

[jcarle]

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

"Queue" Donald Trump's theme song.... "Money, Money, Money, Money..... Money!!!!"

It's called For the Love of Money by The O'jays, you id***.

[CoffeeFiend]

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

This was not a viable example, as I pointed out.

Which again was just a random example, which totally seems to go over your head.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

You failed here - the low-end and high-end examples I pointed out are real world examples of a home-based system that I would only deal with. I'm sorry, what you described is junk.

Yes, you can only have the low-end as in a super old P3, or a box over $1000, nothing in between will do! And yet again, you fail to explain why it's "junk".

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

The e2180 processor: Junk for my uses.

Junk? Are you out of your mind? It's a great CPU. I'm actually using a E2160 myself (OC'es quite nice, dirt cheap). What's junk about it? It's a big seller, lots of performance for not a lot of $. It's more than sufficient for 99% of daily tasks. I can run plenty of VMs at once, use photoshop, visual studio 2008, CAD apps, firefox, play & encode high 1080p video (in x264) and everything else I can think of. It's not junk by any stretch of the imagination.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

System hardware should last 8-10 years at a minimum - if you take care of it.

And you're sorely mistaken here. That reminds me of that $3000 P133 I bought in '95, yes, it was a monster for the time, but only a couple years after, a P2 that only cost half the price TOTALLY slaughtered it. Expecting a computer to last 10 years minimum is crazy talk -- that would mean still using that P1 in 2005 and beyond (whereas it already sucked hard 3 years later). That sub-$500 box will last you a good 5 years, at which point you can spend another $500 that will last just as long, without being stuck with a 10 year old computer (and without sinking thousands in it up front).

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

If you purchase top-end "today", "tomorrow" all you need to do is purchase the latest updated OS.

Right, so explain why my $3000 P1 (was certainly top end for the time) ran Win98 like crap? Or Why I also needed to upgrade my other "top end" computer to run XP, or that a really top-end computer to run XP from XP's era (2001 -- top of the line being a P4 2GHz back then) doesn't run Vista worth crap and so on? Yep. Because it's just NOT the case.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Will the e2180 processor run Windows 7 well? or run Windows "8" well? - No

Yes, it will. They've even said Win v7 will run on the same specs as Vista. Windows 8 isn't even being planned right now, no idea of release dates or anything. But I'd bet good money that even a $5000 system you'd build today will suck HARD by then (just as much as the E2180 will). At some point, hardware 10% faster is like double the price or more, and it surely won't last much longer. Buying top-end usually doesn't pay, at all.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Will the e2180 processor run XP SP3 well? YES

And does it run Vista SP1 well? YES

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

If I went down that route, I would have to place a 25% mark-up on all components, add in the cost of shipping charges First Class from southern California, not to mention my hourly rates for putting the components together and setting up the system complete with security and maintenance programs, tweaking the security, internet connection, cleaning out the registry, disabling unnecessary services, slimming it down a bit, a delivery charge (trip charge) to the customers home, a set-up / installation charge, State and Local Taxes, and a basic overview "basic training" of what I did to their new system...

So instead of buying $500 worth of parts, you make them waste $1000+ on a similar pre-built box. Assembling it? It only takes a few minutes, and most shops do it for only a few dollars, besides, where's the problem with you charging them say, $50 to assemble it to save them $500? Shipping? Pre-built also charge shipping, or it's included in their (articially inflated) price -- nothing saved there either. Setting up the system? That should be 5 minutes of work for any competent tech (unattended install). Security and maintenance programs? Those can be unattended too, and pre-builts don't normally come with any, and the odd times it does, it's usually garbage (like norton sh*t) -- no advantage there yet again. "tweaking the security, internet connection, cleaning out the registry, disabling unnecessary services, slimming it down a bit" -- yes, because that's any different when you buy a system pre-assembled from Dell? More nonsense yet again. Delivery? You're going to have to deliver both... Setup/installation? Same thing yet again, the Dell doesn't come with a tech in the box to do it for them. Still no difference. State and local taxes? Both pre-built systems and parts have taxes. Yet again no difference. Training? Ditto.

All you demonstrated so far, is that you're willing to make people spend hundreds of $$$ more on a pre-built so you don't have to spend 15 minutes to do it yourself.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

and we still haven't added in the extra costs of a decent printer!

Same thing as I said in my last 3 posts or such: neither the parts, nor the pre-built comes with one (unless they artificially inflate the price of the pre-built even further and "give" you one). TANSTAAFL.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Are ya learning something yet?

That some people are lazy, yes.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Are we now going backwards on the OS as well? You look forward to the next and future Operating System, as I already explained.

That's 100% irrelevant (as usual). We were talking about doing 5 minutes of work on a P3 for $450 VS getting a $450 upgrade. You're the one that's talking about OS'es here.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Most 15 year olds are too busy "tweaking" their profiles on MySpace, Facebook, and YouTube - or creating cool Visual Styles.

You'd be surprised... There's a LOT of young geeks on here.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 23 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Instead I am going to suggest that you get off the couch that your brother left to you as a "hand-me-down" before he went off to college and instead of you joining him, you decided to spend a few years living in your parent's basement - go to the coffee-house, "sip on a latte", use the free WiFi, and tally up the score...

Ah, more trolling and no insight -- as usual! You should copyright that, you're certainly pioneering that field -- you finally found something you're genuinely good at for a change!

This post has been edited by crahak: 23 August 2008 - 07:03 PM

[Ponch]

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 21 2008, 02:32 AM, said:

Typically, the kind/type of customer who comes into my shop has problems or issues that are something along these lines:

"Hi, I'm 45+ years old and I purchase this OEM computer 5-7 years ago and it's running like garbage. I cannot afford to purchase a brand-new desktop PC that will run Vista correctly because I would have to take out a second mortgage on my home or sell my children into slavery - can you help me out?"

...

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 24 2008, 01:38 AM, said:

My typical customer is 45+ years old, lives in a 500k (or more) home, usually drives a 70k car to his 55-60 hour per week senior management position, has 3 children and a "trophy" wife with fake boobs who loves to shop.

Your quotes of $427.92 and $324.00 and "sub-$500 PCs" are not my "real world" examples - not here in my market - not here for the majority of my customers - not here by a long shot -

They EXPECT to pay the amounts I describe - otherwise they feel they are not getting QUALITY - like I said: "junk".

And that's only one example. But most don't have the time nor any reason to take this seriously.

[Poolsharkzz]

Gentlemen,

I am sorry to say that our time together has to come to a close. I have asked the "powers to be" to close this thread after my response, which will be brief...

We not going anywhere with "debating" (I'm using that term loosely on all our parts) about mostly hypotheticals and points of view based on no knowledge of market, market conditions, economy, customer expectations, business philosophy, etc.

If I wanted to go on vacation from Chicago to Montreal or Quebec, I could take a plane, train, boat, drive, or hitch-hike - there are many ways to go about getting there - in the end, it's all the same - so as long as you get there, right?

I prefer a first-class seat on an airplane, you may decide to drive or hitch-hike - the decision on how to proceed is in the eye of the beholder.

Its been fun, lively, entertaining, and I've learned a few things - I hope you can say the say the same. If not, I'll say it again - read the posts!

Needless to say...

It's called For the Love of Money by The O'jays, you id***.

I was putting it in "simple, stupid" terms because I didn't know if you knew who wrote the song - making it easier for you to understand. This is one of the reasons I have requested to have this thread closed.

Need I say more?

Besides, in your haste to bash, you missed "Queue" - meaning: a type of data structure or Mail "queue", used by non-commercial SMTP e-mail servers to process incoming and outgoing e-mails. "Cue music, lights..."

TANSTAAFL

You are right - "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" - or were you using the acronym as a quazi-response to the many negative claims towards the positive virtues of the free software / hardware movement?

And I was called an id***? Junk.

Typically, the kind/type of customer

You guys, seriously, you really need to read the posts! Especially if you are going to offer advice or help to others!!!

The first description was discussing the kind/type of customer that I've had experience with that had problems or issues with a system...

The second description was discussing the kind/type of customer that I've had experience with who was interested in purchasing hardware - or a new system.

Again, you really need to read the posts and understand the context in which they are placed, the bigger picture in which it's placed, and it's history - if not, ask "what do you mean by that?" - otherwise, you will make the same mistakes again!

I'm finished here. It's been a slice.

poolsharkzz

This post has been edited by Poolsharkzz: 24 August 2008 - 04:40 PM

[CoffeeFiend]

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 24 2008, 06:16 PM, said:

were you using the acronym as a quazi-response to the many negative claims towards the positive virtues of the free software / hardware movement?

It was an answer to your numerous "they don't get a flat screen" or "they don't get a printer" points.

They don't get a free flat screen nor printer, no matter if they pay someone $450 for 5 minutes of work, or if they buy computer parts, or a $5000 pre-built tower. They aren't free, so no one gives them out (if you do seemingly get one for free "as a bonus", it's just included in the inflated price). They don't get what they don't buy (just like they don't get a new car, new couch, nor a new dishwasher out of it), so your point was totally irrelevant.

If their printer and monitor are working fine with their P3 (it's just the computer that's too slow), I see no real reason to change them. And if they're not good enough, then in all 3 cases you're going to have to pay to buy those regardless. Yet, you only added the cost of those items to the situation where someone buys or builds a new PC (as if you needed it then, but otherwise wouldn't), somehow making it much more expensive -- just like your "does it run Vista well?" point, which also seems to serve you as a purpose to make the hardware upgrade seem a lot more expensive. It's not like their P3 can run it at any speed, and a simple hardware upgrade of the P3 would have given their existing OS a GREAT speed boost regardless (a LOT more than any tweaks ever would)

That's all I was saying.

This post has been edited by crahak: 24 August 2008 - 04:44 PM

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

crahak, on Aug 23 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

The inner part is somewhat faster, but when you increase the amount of seek drastically for every sector you need, you're not gaining anything, much the inverse.

The OUTER part of the hard drive is faster. And HDDs read from the OUTSIDE IN, like old vinyl LPs and unlike CDs. Gotcha there.

crahak, on Aug 23 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

It's not really that funny, nor surprising. Eventually they phase out some old things, and stop supporting them. In this case, a codec seemingly. With x64, they also stopped supporting other stuff, like the Microsoft.Jet.OLEDB.4.0 ODBC provider, or providing components like ntvdm.

Problem: The file exists. But it doesn't work.

The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore. The E6550 i bought then runs at 60C loaded at 3.5GHz.

And you should stop arguing with Poolsharkzz. He isn't right in everything but he is pretty close to being. The point is he makes money out of this while you don't. Just one thing i should have to tell you Poolsharkzz, Dell SUCKS. But i agree from buying from a local hardware store when you need warranties, i do the same thing.

Edit: crahak, but what do they do if their old printer does not work with Vista?

This post has been edited by Th3_uN1Qu3: 24 August 2008 - 04:59 PM

[CoffeeFiend]

Yep, I said inner when I should've said outer. Sue me

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore.

PEBCAK. Mine never gets this hot even though it's overclocked 85% and using the cheap stock cooler, even when at full load for several hours. And zero crashes so far. Didn't see any such reports by anyone else so far either, and they sell a LOT, so if they sucked this badly, we'd be seeing a LOT of such reports and everybody would say they suck, yet, you're the first I see that claims this.

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

The point is he makes money out of this while you don't.

I don't make $ overcharging people for this indeed, I'd sooner make money building them a box. Besides, I don't do that kind of thing for a living (not my job), so of course I ain't making money out of it.

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

what do they do if their old printer does not work with Vista?

Again, I never said they should move to Vista (much the inverse), and most printers work fine with it anyways, including my ancient HP LJ4+

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

crahak, on Aug 25 2008, 02:18 AM, said:

PEBCAK. Mine never gets this hot even though it's overclocked 85% and using the cheap stock cooler, even when at full load for several hours. And zero crashes so far. Didn't see any such reports by anyone else so far either, and they sell a LOT, so if they sucked this badly, we'd be seeing a LOT of such reports and everybody would say they suck, yet, you're the first I see that claims this.

Maybe i'm just an unlucky bastard, however, the E2180 was the first CPU that i ever had trouble with. Just curious, what temps do you get on that stock cooler when overclocked? I doubt they're very pretty.

This post has been edited by Th3_uN1Qu3: 24 August 2008 - 05:23 PM

[Zxian]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore. The E6550 i bought then runs at 60C loaded at 3.5GHz.

You probably had a CPU that had poor contact between the die and the IHS. Lapping or switching out the CPU won't help there. I've got my E2160 in my server, running at 100% 24/7 (BOINC projects), and it's currently at 52C on both cores (passive cooling on a Scythe Ninja).

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

And you should stop arguing with Poolsharkzz. He isn't right in everything but he is pretty close to being. The point is he makes money out of this while you don't. Just one thing i should have to tell you Poolsharkzz, Dell SUCKS. But i agree from buying from a local hardware store when you need warranties, i do the same thing.

The point is that I too make my living this way!!! poolsharkz has given this topic nothing but FUD about modern hardware, and has shown us that he's too busy fixing old computers to be knowledgable about current systems. I make about $15K from my university stipend, and another $5K from working as a TA and a tutor. The rest of my income (which is my expendable income) comes mainly from computer repair and maintenance work. I don't have a shop, but I do housecalls for businesses and home customers. I can't name one reputable computer repair shop that actually recommends old hardware over new. I can't think of any large market where products made 10 years ago are better than those sold today...

Dell does not suck. My 2.5 year old laptop had a dud hard drive, and the system fan was starting to get noisy (not broken, just buzzed now and then). Here's what happened about a month ago.

• I called them on a Thurdsay. Told them the hard drive was broken and the fan was loud. We walked through about 5 minutes of their on-the-phone troubleshooting. They confirmed that the hard drive was dead, and said they'd take it in.
  
• Friday morning - Purolator delivers an empty box containing a return shipping label. I put the computer in the box, attach the shipping label, and call Purolator. They're at my door two hours later to pick it up.
  
• Monday - regular business day.
  
• Tuesday - Statutory Holiday - It was Canada Day. Pretty much EVERYTHING in the country, except essential services, closes.
  
• Wednesday - Computer arrives at my house at 9AM.

Let's look at that timeline again. One business day turnaround. ONE! Now, if you can say that other PC manufacturers can match that kind of service, I'd really love to hear it. Toshiba - forget it. Acer - nope. Lenovo - good, but not this good. LG - pfft... Sony - yuck.


In Canada, businesses can claim 30% depreciation on computer hardware purchases per year for three years. This means that according to the government (and all of their financial backings), the value of the computer has dropped to 10% of what it was initially after three years. Not five, not eight, and not ten. Three. No person in their right mind would pay $5000 in labour on a car that was worth $1000, so why would someone spend $450 on a computer that's worth less than 10% of that?

[Kelsenellenelvian]

LOL you need to do some reading because just the e2140 alone runs all the time for A LOT of people at 3+gigs!!! With stock cooling.

I ran mine with the bsel mod for 8+ months on Vista ultimate without any lockup or crashes! What gave out? The **** mobo is what not the cpu not the ram. (temps of 50-60 on full load too with the stock intel cooler.)

2180 is more than enough to run vista ultimate. Look on Toms Hardware and other places for reviews and serious results not just CRAP sayings, ACTUAL results!

Toms Hardware thread = http://www.tomshardw...e2180-overclock

Xtreme view = http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-3247-vie...erclocking.html

hardware canucks = http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/overc...xperiences.html

Hell they are everywhere. I am using one of the lowest dual cores possible and the proccesor got a 5.1 On the performance index. Get that a 5.1!!!

You are really blowing smoke provide actual results not just your opinion.

This post has been edited by Kelsenellenelvian: 24 August 2008 - 05:39 PM

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Zxian, on Aug 25 2008, 02:36 AM, said:

You probably had a CPU that had poor contact between the die and the IHS. Lapping or switching out the CPU won't help there.

If you read the whole paragraph, i had removed the IHS entirely, yet i was still having the same issue.

Dell's laptops are pretty good. Their desktops suck balls. Toshiba sucks in every aspect, Acer used to suck hard now they semi-suck, Lenovo isn't what IBM used to be, and that's about it.

Benchmarks... Bah. All Core chips score high numbers. But no benchmark is able to measure the "feel" of the system. For the end-user that only does basic tasks with their computer, that's what matters the most. And WEI scores are so easily faked.

This post has been edited by Th3_uN1Qu3: 24 August 2008 - 05:52 PM

[CoffeeFiend]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 07:22 PM, said:

Just curious, what temps do you get on that stock cooler when overclocked? I doubt they're very pretty.

43C and 45C, after over 9 1/2h of encoding a HD movie in x264 (pretty slow using these settings w/ deinterlacing, fancy avisynth script and all -- yes, I do need a quad core). And that's @ 3.4GHz (it's a E2160 though, not a E2180). See the pic.

Zxian's temps aren't much higher on passive cooling.

Zxian, on Aug 24 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

Dell does not suck.

While it probably sucks for gamers who want the latest vid cards and such for cheap, for basic business systems it's just fine. We got a pretty good support contract for free out of it too (not outsourced in India either), with 1 business day service (you call, next day someone shows up with spare parts), and pretty good prices. It runs Windows, Office and everything else just fine. They're silent enough and all that. No stability problems or anything so far. We don't have to return bad hard drives either (we just fax them a copy of the label) due to the sensitive data that might be on it. No real complaints about them here (not that I'd buy one for my specific needs).

I think Zxian pretty much said it as it is (he makes a habit of it too).

Kelsenellenelvian, on Aug 24 2008, 07:37 PM, said:

Hell they are everywhere. I am using one of the lowest dual cores possible and the proccesor got a 5.1 On the performance index. Get that a 5.1!!!
You are really blowing smoke provide actual results not just your opinion.

My $70 E2160 that's getting close to a year old gets 5.7 I'd say that's pretty good too.