[Ponch]

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 21 2008, 02:32 AM, said:

Typically, the kind/type of customer who comes into my shop has problems or issues that are something along these lines:

"Hi, I'm 45+ years old and I purchase this OEM computer 5-7 years ago and it's running like garbage. I cannot afford to purchase a brand-new desktop PC that will run Vista correctly because I would have to take out a second mortgage on my home or sell my children into slavery - can you help me out?"

...

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 24 2008, 01:38 AM, said:

My typical customer is 45+ years old, lives in a 500k (or more) home, usually drives a 70k car to his 55-60 hour per week senior management position, has 3 children and a "trophy" wife with fake boobs who loves to shop.

Your quotes of $427.92 and $324.00 and "sub-$500 PCs" are not my "real world" examples - not here in my market - not here for the majority of my customers - not here by a long shot -

They EXPECT to pay the amounts I describe - otherwise they feel they are not getting QUALITY - like I said: "junk".

And that's only one example. But most don't have the time nor any reason to take this seriously.

[Poolsharkzz]

Gentlemen,

I am sorry to say that our time together has to come to a close. I have asked the "powers to be" to close this thread after my response, which will be brief...

We not going anywhere with "debating" (I'm using that term loosely on all our parts) about mostly hypotheticals and points of view based on no knowledge of market, market conditions, economy, customer expectations, business philosophy, etc.

If I wanted to go on vacation from Chicago to Montreal or Quebec, I could take a plane, train, boat, drive, or hitch-hike - there are many ways to go about getting there - in the end, it's all the same - so as long as you get there, right?

I prefer a first-class seat on an airplane, you may decide to drive or hitch-hike - the decision on how to proceed is in the eye of the beholder.

Its been fun, lively, entertaining, and I've learned a few things - I hope you can say the say the same. If not, I'll say it again - read the posts!

Needless to say...

It's called For the Love of Money by The O'jays, you id***.

I was putting it in "simple, stupid" terms because I didn't know if you knew who wrote the song - making it easier for you to understand. This is one of the reasons I have requested to have this thread closed.

Need I say more?

Besides, in your haste to bash, you missed "Queue" - meaning: a type of data structure or Mail "queue", used by non-commercial SMTP e-mail servers to process incoming and outgoing e-mails. "Cue music, lights..."

TANSTAAFL

You are right - "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" - or were you using the acronym as a quazi-response to the many negative claims towards the positive virtues of the free software / hardware movement?

And I was called an id***? Junk.

Typically, the kind/type of customer

You guys, seriously, you really need to read the posts! Especially if you are going to offer advice or help to others!!!

The first description was discussing the kind/type of customer that I've had experience with that had problems or issues with a system...

The second description was discussing the kind/type of customer that I've had experience with who was interested in purchasing hardware - or a new system.

Again, you really need to read the posts and understand the context in which they are placed, the bigger picture in which it's placed, and it's history - if not, ask "what do you mean by that?" - otherwise, you will make the same mistakes again!

I'm finished here. It's been a slice.

poolsharkzz

This post has been edited by Poolsharkzz: 24 August 2008 - 04:40 PM

[CoffeeFiend]

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 24 2008, 06:16 PM, said:

were you using the acronym as a quazi-response to the many negative claims towards the positive virtues of the free software / hardware movement?

It was an answer to your numerous "they don't get a flat screen" or "they don't get a printer" points.

They don't get a free flat screen nor printer, no matter if they pay someone $450 for 5 minutes of work, or if they buy computer parts, or a $5000 pre-built tower. They aren't free, so no one gives them out (if you do seemingly get one for free "as a bonus", it's just included in the inflated price). They don't get what they don't buy (just like they don't get a new car, new couch, nor a new dishwasher out of it), so your point was totally irrelevant.

If their printer and monitor are working fine with their P3 (it's just the computer that's too slow), I see no real reason to change them. And if they're not good enough, then in all 3 cases you're going to have to pay to buy those regardless. Yet, you only added the cost of those items to the situation where someone buys or builds a new PC (as if you needed it then, but otherwise wouldn't), somehow making it much more expensive -- just like your "does it run Vista well?" point, which also seems to serve you as a purpose to make the hardware upgrade seem a lot more expensive. It's not like their P3 can run it at any speed, and a simple hardware upgrade of the P3 would have given their existing OS a GREAT speed boost regardless (a LOT more than any tweaks ever would)

That's all I was saying.

This post has been edited by crahak: 24 August 2008 - 04:44 PM

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

crahak, on Aug 23 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

The inner part is somewhat faster, but when you increase the amount of seek drastically for every sector you need, you're not gaining anything, much the inverse.

The OUTER part of the hard drive is faster. And HDDs read from the OUTSIDE IN, like old vinyl LPs and unlike CDs. Gotcha there.

crahak, on Aug 23 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

It's not really that funny, nor surprising. Eventually they phase out some old things, and stop supporting them. In this case, a codec seemingly. With x64, they also stopped supporting other stuff, like the Microsoft.Jet.OLEDB.4.0 ODBC provider, or providing components like ntvdm.

Problem: The file exists. But it doesn't work.

The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore. The E6550 i bought then runs at 60C loaded at 3.5GHz.

And you should stop arguing with Poolsharkzz. He isn't right in everything but he is pretty close to being. The point is he makes money out of this while you don't. Just one thing i should have to tell you Poolsharkzz, Dell SUCKS. But i agree from buying from a local hardware store when you need warranties, i do the same thing.

Edit: crahak, but what do they do if their old printer does not work with Vista?

This post has been edited by Th3_uN1Qu3: 24 August 2008 - 04:59 PM

[CoffeeFiend]

Yep, I said inner when I should've said outer. Sue me

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore.

PEBCAK. Mine never gets this hot even though it's overclocked 85% and using the cheap stock cooler, even when at full load for several hours. And zero crashes so far. Didn't see any such reports by anyone else so far either, and they sell a LOT, so if they sucked this badly, we'd be seeing a LOT of such reports and everybody would say they suck, yet, you're the first I see that claims this.

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

The point is he makes money out of this while you don't.

I don't make $ overcharging people for this indeed, I'd sooner make money building them a box. Besides, I don't do that kind of thing for a living (not my job), so of course I ain't making money out of it.

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

what do they do if their old printer does not work with Vista?

Again, I never said they should move to Vista (much the inverse), and most printers work fine with it anyways, including my ancient HP LJ4+

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

crahak, on Aug 25 2008, 02:18 AM, said:

PEBCAK. Mine never gets this hot even though it's overclocked 85% and using the cheap stock cooler, even when at full load for several hours. And zero crashes so far. Didn't see any such reports by anyone else so far either, and they sell a LOT, so if they sucked this badly, we'd be seeing a LOT of such reports and everybody would say they suck, yet, you're the first I see that claims this.

Maybe i'm just an unlucky bastard, however, the E2180 was the first CPU that i ever had trouble with. Just curious, what temps do you get on that stock cooler when overclocked? I doubt they're very pretty.

This post has been edited by Th3_uN1Qu3: 24 August 2008 - 05:23 PM

[Zxian]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

The E2180 processor... It IS a piece of junk. Mine was running at 75C load and was crashing, regardless of how many times i reseated the cooler (Scythe Mugen). I lapped the IHS, still 75C load. I REMOVED THE IHS, still 75C load, **** it! A couple months later it just didn't turn on anymore. The E6550 i bought then runs at 60C loaded at 3.5GHz.

You probably had a CPU that had poor contact between the die and the IHS. Lapping or switching out the CPU won't help there. I've got my E2160 in my server, running at 100% 24/7 (BOINC projects), and it's currently at 52C on both cores (passive cooling on a Scythe Ninja).

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

And you should stop arguing with Poolsharkzz. He isn't right in everything but he is pretty close to being. The point is he makes money out of this while you don't. Just one thing i should have to tell you Poolsharkzz, Dell SUCKS. But i agree from buying from a local hardware store when you need warranties, i do the same thing.

The point is that I too make my living this way!!! poolsharkz has given this topic nothing but FUD about modern hardware, and has shown us that he's too busy fixing old computers to be knowledgable about current systems. I make about $15K from my university stipend, and another $5K from working as a TA and a tutor. The rest of my income (which is my expendable income) comes mainly from computer repair and maintenance work. I don't have a shop, but I do housecalls for businesses and home customers. I can't name one reputable computer repair shop that actually recommends old hardware over new. I can't think of any large market where products made 10 years ago are better than those sold today...

Dell does not suck. My 2.5 year old laptop had a dud hard drive, and the system fan was starting to get noisy (not broken, just buzzed now and then). Here's what happened about a month ago.

• I called them on a Thurdsay. Told them the hard drive was broken and the fan was loud. We walked through about 5 minutes of their on-the-phone troubleshooting. They confirmed that the hard drive was dead, and said they'd take it in.
  
• Friday morning - Purolator delivers an empty box containing a return shipping label. I put the computer in the box, attach the shipping label, and call Purolator. They're at my door two hours later to pick it up.
  
• Monday - regular business day.
  
• Tuesday - Statutory Holiday - It was Canada Day. Pretty much EVERYTHING in the country, except essential services, closes.
  
• Wednesday - Computer arrives at my house at 9AM.

Let's look at that timeline again. One business day turnaround. ONE! Now, if you can say that other PC manufacturers can match that kind of service, I'd really love to hear it. Toshiba - forget it. Acer - nope. Lenovo - good, but not this good. LG - pfft... Sony - yuck.


In Canada, businesses can claim 30% depreciation on computer hardware purchases per year for three years. This means that according to the government (and all of their financial backings), the value of the computer has dropped to 10% of what it was initially after three years. Not five, not eight, and not ten. Three. No person in their right mind would pay $5000 in labour on a car that was worth $1000, so why would someone spend $450 on a computer that's worth less than 10% of that?

[Kelsenellenelvian]

LOL you need to do some reading because just the e2140 alone runs all the time for A LOT of people at 3+gigs!!! With stock cooling.

I ran mine with the bsel mod for 8+ months on Vista ultimate without any lockup or crashes! What gave out? The **** mobo is what not the cpu not the ram. (temps of 50-60 on full load too with the stock intel cooler.)

2180 is more than enough to run vista ultimate. Look on Toms Hardware and other places for reviews and serious results not just CRAP sayings, ACTUAL results!

Toms Hardware thread = http://www.tomshardw...e2180-overclock

Xtreme view = http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-3247-vie...erclocking.html

hardware canucks = http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/overc...xperiences.html

Hell they are everywhere. I am using one of the lowest dual cores possible and the proccesor got a 5.1 On the performance index. Get that a 5.1!!!

You are really blowing smoke provide actual results not just your opinion.

This post has been edited by Kelsenellenelvian: 24 August 2008 - 05:39 PM

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Zxian, on Aug 25 2008, 02:36 AM, said:

You probably had a CPU that had poor contact between the die and the IHS. Lapping or switching out the CPU won't help there.

If you read the whole paragraph, i had removed the IHS entirely, yet i was still having the same issue.

Dell's laptops are pretty good. Their desktops suck balls. Toshiba sucks in every aspect, Acer used to suck hard now they semi-suck, Lenovo isn't what IBM used to be, and that's about it.

Benchmarks... Bah. All Core chips score high numbers. But no benchmark is able to measure the "feel" of the system. For the end-user that only does basic tasks with their computer, that's what matters the most. And WEI scores are so easily faked.

This post has been edited by Th3_uN1Qu3: 24 August 2008 - 05:52 PM

[CoffeeFiend]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 07:22 PM, said:

Just curious, what temps do you get on that stock cooler when overclocked? I doubt they're very pretty.

43C and 45C, after over 9 1/2h of encoding a HD movie in x264 (pretty slow using these settings w/ deinterlacing, fancy avisynth script and all -- yes, I do need a quad core). And that's @ 3.4GHz (it's a E2160 though, not a E2180). See the pic.

Zxian's temps aren't much higher on passive cooling.

Zxian, on Aug 24 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

Dell does not suck.

While it probably sucks for gamers who want the latest vid cards and such for cheap, for basic business systems it's just fine. We got a pretty good support contract for free out of it too (not outsourced in India either), with 1 business day service (you call, next day someone shows up with spare parts), and pretty good prices. It runs Windows, Office and everything else just fine. They're silent enough and all that. No stability problems or anything so far. We don't have to return bad hard drives either (we just fax them a copy of the label) due to the sensitive data that might be on it. No real complaints about them here (not that I'd buy one for my specific needs).

I think Zxian pretty much said it as it is (he makes a habit of it too).

Kelsenellenelvian, on Aug 24 2008, 07:37 PM, said:

Hell they are everywhere. I am using one of the lowest dual cores possible and the proccesor got a 5.1 On the performance index. Get that a 5.1!!!
You are really blowing smoke provide actual results not just your opinion.

My $70 E2160 that's getting close to a year old gets 5.7 I'd say that's pretty good too.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

SpeedFan does not read C2D temps properly. Ever heard of CoreTemp or RealTemp? I want a shot of those.

And oh, you can encode x264 videos just fine... at 3 FPS. Wow, that's an amazing processor you got there man! Also Vista Experience Index scores don't really mean anything.

This post has been edited by Th3_uN1Qu3: 24 August 2008 - 06:23 PM

[Zxian]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 03:50 PM, said:

If you read the whole paragraph, i had removed the IHS entirely, yet i was still having the same issue.

Whoops... missed that part. I'm not sure what happened with that chip then. There have been cases where the thermal diode is broken, or the TJunction value is set incorrectly, giving you abnormal readings. I've built about 5 systems with E2100 series CPUs (two for myself), and none of them have had abonormally high temperatures.

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 03:50 PM, said:

Dell's laptops are pretty good. Their desktops suck balls. Toshiba sucks in every aspect, Acer used to suck hard now they semi-suck, Lenovo isn't what IBM used to be, and that's about it.

I'm not talking about the hardware here - I'm talking service. Unless you go for business class systems, all OEM hardware sucks. Lenovo ThinkPads are the only laptops that have some out of the box quality feel to them (and they don't really break the bank either).

Edit - the latest release of SpeedFan does measure temperatures correctly for all but the 45-nm chips out of the box. Otherwise, it's simply a matter of adding an offset from SpeedFan's default TJunction temperature (100C) and the actual TJunction on your CPU.

[CoffeeFiend]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 08:21 PM, said:

you can encode x264 videos just fine... at 3 FPS. Wow, that's an amazing processor you got there man!

It only shows how little you know about encoding.

I can encode XviD At full D1, with great settings, doing Lanczos4Resize, deinterlacing and all @ 150fps+ average (with spikes over 200fps) I can also encode a few dozen mpeg audio or AC3 streams in mp3 in real-time. It totally spanks a friends' Athlon64 X2 6400+ in actual encoding speeds, and it also benches about the same as a core 2 duo 6850 (both cost like $300 back when I got this CPU for 1/4 of that price)

But now decode & frameserve high bitrate 1080i, deinterlace it in a non-ghetto way, Spline36Resize it down to 720p, do fancy (slow) sharpening stuff, color space conversion, etc. You'll see even a $1000 Xeon chip slow down to a crawl. A Q6600 would get around 6fps with this particular source, avisynth script, and particular build of the x264 codec, and a $350 Q9550 about 8fps. The first x264 pass is always pretty quick, but the second, ouch. I regularly see people with Athlon64 3800+ and such getting around 1fps, heh. You don't actually seem to know much about fast CPUs... or at least what they're capable of when it comes to encoding high def material in high quality H.264.

BTW, that is the latest version of SpeedFan -- v4.35, and the core temps were fixed in 4.34 Yes, it actually does run that cold, even at full load, overclocked, on a stock HSF.

Edit: here's the screenshot you asked for:

Yep, they report even LOWER temps! 40C and 42C.

This post has been edited by crahak: 24 August 2008 - 10:00 PM

[jcarle]

Th3_uN1Qu3, on Aug 24 2008, 08:21 PM, said:

SpeedFan does not read C2D temps properly. Ever heard of CoreTemp or RealTemp? I want a shot of those.

And oh, you can encode x264 videos just fine... at 3 FPS. Wow, that's an amazing processor you got there man! Also Vista Experience Index scores don't really mean anything.

You bash the E2xxx series processors as if they were VIA C7s... your inability to properly build a system using an E2xxx series processor only proves YOUR inability to properly build a modern PC. Millions of those processors have been sold around the world and everyone's had nothing but praise for the amazing power such inexpensive processors have, they've been used in millions of builds and have been overclocked to ridiculous amounts with everyday regular cooling without running abnormally hot, yet you think it's s*** so we should all throw our computers out the window? Even Ray Charles had better vision.

This post has been edited by jcarle: 24 August 2008 - 10:29 PM

[cluberti]

Keep it clean. Warnings all around - if you don't start following rule 7b, I'll start suspending accounts. That goes for all of you, not one in specific. Keep it clean, and I'll let the banter go back and forth. If the lack of respect continues as-is, I'll put up the virtual roadblock from using the site for 3 days. I will generally let banter go back and forth, even heated, but if the fine line of rule 7b is crossed I *will* suspend accounts or ban and there will be no discussion.

[JedMeister]

I've been reading this topic with interest and haven't replied for a while.

Here's my current observation and opinion:

Firstly and most importantly: This thread has basically been hijacked and has degraded into something far from what the OP was asking for. The current argument has become a disagreement between paying $$$ for tweaks VS upgrading hardware. What the OP requested was some ideas to get a little more life out of an old system that belonged to a family member.

Now I've got that out of the way.....
Secondly: I somewhat agree with the OP, Poolsharkzz and Th3_uN1Qu3 in that I think there is some advantage to be gained by tweaks (especially on old hardware). I have and will continue to assist friends and family members to squeeze a little more performance out of their old hardware (basically only used for word processing, email and net access by their owners anyway). I always err on the side of caution. But personally I have never and would never ask for cash payment for this. I do it as a favour only. (I am however willing to accept return favours).

Thirdly: Leading on from above, I would always suggest a hardware upgrade to a paying customer with a P3 system. As has been suggested by jcarle, crahak and Zxian no matter how humble the system is, a cheap (even the cheapest) hardware upgrade will outperform any tweaks possible on an old P3! Generally you can even recycle the old box just adding new guts. I know because I've done it. I recently ordered parts for a bargain system. Total cost to the customer was AU$470 (dual core celery, 1GB RAM, 80GB HDD, onboard graphics & running Linux) and everyone was happy, the customer has a huge performance boost over their old P3 450MHz/256MB RAM PC and I made $100 for the 30 mins I spent with the machine (they came and picked it up). I have made a customised build of PCLinuxOS which which installs (mostly) unattended with very minimal setup after install which helps keep the time down. It sounds like I have a very different customer base from you Poolsharkzz so I'm not really sure if my experience is compatible

This post has been edited by JedMeister: 24 August 2008 - 10:29 PM

[jcarle]

JedMeister, on Aug 25 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Firstly and most importantly: This thread has basically been hijacked and has degraded into something far from what the OP was asking for. The current argument has become a disagreement between paying $$$ for tweaks VS upgrading hardware. What the OP requested was some ideas to get a little more life out of an old system that belonged to a family member.

I'd disagree slightly, yes the original discussion of the thread has been lost in part but the reason the thread's become so convoluted is the disagreements on the methods to improve the performance of the OP's system.

JedMeister, on Aug 25 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Secondly: I somewhat agree with the OP, Poolsharkzz and Th3_uN1Qu3 in that I think there is some advantage to be gained by tweaks (especially on old hardware). I have and will continue to assist friends and family members to squeeze a little more performance out of their old hardware (basically only used for word processing, email and net access by their owners anyway). I always err on the side of caution.

There's been a large disagreement on the methods used to "tweak" a system. No one ever said that "tweaking" it itself was bad, it's been under argument as to how. And the source of that disagreement mostly comes from the fact that there's a large portion of the professional community here that disagrees with "tweaks" that would change the end-user experience or expectations of the operating system. When a user plugs in his iPod, he expects it to work, he doesn't expect to have to contact a technician to figure out that someone "tweaked" his system and disabled certain essential services because they "weren't needed".

There are literally thousands of things that can be done without disabling aspects of the system that can improve performance. A lot of them usually comes down to the basics that have been repeated over and over and over. Uninstall software that runs unnecessarily in the background (that doesn't include Windows services), clean out your temp folder, your IE cache, keep Windows up to date, keep your drivers up to date, defrag and make sure you system is physically clean (ie: dusty fans and heatsinks). I've restored hundreds of old PCs to a new life simply by doing the same things every time. I take the PC outside, I dust clean it, then I boot it, uninstall heavy Anti-Virus/Anti-Malware software that's obviously too heavy for the system, remove the millions of 3rd party applications that start with the system, update Windows, update the drivers, run Disk Cleanup and then Defrag and usually that's all that's needed to completely turn a system around.

JedMeister, on Aug 25 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Thirdly: Leading on from above, I would always suggest a hardware upgrade to a paying customer with a P3 system. As has been suggested by jcarle, crahak and Zxian no matter how humble the system is, a cheap (even the cheapest) hardware upgrade will outperform any tweaks possible on an old P3! Generally you can even recycle the old box just adding new guts. I know because I've done it. I recently ordered parts for a bargain system. Total cost to the customer was AU$470 (running Linux) and everyone was happy, the customer has a huge performance boost over their old P3 450MHz/256MB RAM PC and I made $100 for the 30 mins I spent with the machine.

If someone takes a bit of time and does a bit of hunting you can usually transform a PC with little investment in a thousand different ways. If you look at the challenge with upgrading old PIIIs, the requirements are not difficult to follow for maximum savings. Obviously memory and CPU upgrades tend to be problematic and sometimes impossible so the alternative is to upgrade the motherboard. Moving to a new motherboard can often mean not only a new CPU and new memory, but it often leads to a new video card, a new hard drive due to expired technologies. That's not always within the financial constraints available. An alternative is often to buy a next generation (next generation up from the existing system, not today next generation) used motherboard with an appropriate processor and memory.

If the PIII system uses an IDE hard drive, an IDE optical drive and an AGP video card, it's fairly easy to find a motherboard with socket 478 cpu (early P4s) with 512MB/1GB of memory with two on-board IDE channels and an AGP slot for less then $100. A very far cry from the thousand plus system that was suggested earlier and yet would still provided a noticeable and satisfying increase in performance for the user of the system.

[Poolsharkzz]

I have a few minutes this afternoon, I guess I will respond, since the tone has changed...

Okay, where to begin?

crahak - Disagree - If you are going to put together a new "sub-$500" (or any $$$$$) system for this guy, you would allow him to walk away with his old CRT Monitor (do I really have to go there?) Keyboard (full of goo, slime, black marks on keys, keys faded, drinks spilled, stains, discolored, dust trapped in-between keys, the "A" and "T" keys stick, Roller Ball Mouse get clogged up with dust, hair, goo and crap every two weeks, etc. from what year - 2001?

Not to mention the incredibility sub-standard printer that came standard with those systems?

From a business / profit margin point of view: If you were my employee, and you shrugged off a chance to make me some money and you ignored it, not only would you be FIRED, but I'd take the profit margin lost out of your last check and then black-list you within the Industry for years to come.

Why? You NEVER pass on an opportunity to make a profit - especially in this "hypothetical" - that is, upgrading his hardware. That would be like putting back on an old dented, rust covered bumper on a brand-new Mustang - and that would never happed in my shop.

Secondly, a hardware upgrade is not what the OP asked for: "Trimming down a less than reliable XP system" - It was not: "Need advice on a cheap hardware upgrade for a XP system"

A good sales man would first see that, but also would make the new hardware offer, explain the pros, cons, and benefits in great detail, and then ask for the business - if he said no - no means no - and then leave it alone - no matter your personal view or opinion. It's just business, nothing personal.

The same applies here - If I caught you pushing a hardware upgrade on a customer as hard as you have been in these posts, by mid-morning you would be tossed out the door and you would've found yourself sitting the local watering hole, sipping your favorite poison, counting your pennies, wondering how you would explain to your olé lady that you lost your job.

Where's the problem with you charging them say, $50 to assemble it $50 bucks wouldn't fill my gas tank! $50 bucks wouldn't pay for a date out with my wife! I gotta eat too!

Did you review (read) the Salary Links I provided? (I'd bet you didn't!) If I touch something, I charge $60.00 per hour - my base rate - and that a far cry shy from Geek Squad at $150.00 per hour.

You're the one that's talking about OS'es here. Correct, and I have explained this many times already - you don't go backwards with the OS, going forward means Vista - Junk.

I don't have any use in the world for Vista in its present form today - or do we need to open a side thread on Vista and all it's bugs, annoyances, hick-ups, failures, hassles, disappointments, SP1 and it's failure to fix the many bugs in which all can be still easily recreated - calling it by different names in San Fran, "Performance Tweaking" PDF Files, sales numbers that don't add up, was / still is? Illegal in Europe, The lawsuits, Jerry Seinfeld and a multi-million dollar marketing blitz won't change anything.

Remember Coke back in the 1980's? No not that - Coca-Cola? Sure we all do and that vain attempt to change Coke into the "New Coke Formula" - that lasted two weeks and they pulled "New Coke" from the shelves quicker than a teenager with a hooker - and we got years of "Coke Classic".

While I do give kudos to Micro$oft for going in a new direction, Vista should have been like that Blondie with a "shake" and those 36DDs that sat across from you at the coffee shop last night - you know - the one that smiled at you? Vista had to be perfect - well, at least better than needing a few beers in me before I brought her home...

Now, if Micro$oft comes out with SP2 for Vista in the way SP2 was for XP - I'll reconsider my position.

Yet, you only added the cost of those items to the situation where someone buys or builds a new PC I'll say it again - read the posts: Post # 24 - approx half way down -

I Quote Myself: "If you are going to spend any money on that system, I would suggest getting a new keyboard, lazer mouse, and a 19 inch flat panel monitor - your family will thank you in more ways than one! (and, you are now half way towards a new system $$$$$-wise)"

* This comment was made by me well before you came into the picture.

Did you really think that in the back of my mind I was thinking of a upgrade altogether? and I was called lazy?

I missed suggesting a printer - "I'm fired" - Don't make the excuse that my post was too long either.

"5 minutes of work on a P3 for $450" I'd break that down for you, but I don't think you would understand all that goes into it. I've explained just the very basics. in these posts...

It takes almost an hour just to update to SP3+ via Windows Update! Not to mention Java, Flash, Shockwave, Adobe, QuickTime, DirectX, .Net, extra Micro$oft programs, etc.

and that's the very beginning of what I do. I take ownership with a system, meaning that I make that system run as smooth as my Wife's does - she has a Intel 2160 @ 1.80 GHz, 1 Gig of Ram running XP Home SP3. Not to mention all the extras and there's too many to list.

"make $ overcharging people for this" Yes, if YOU were the customer, I would expect for YOU to know all this and this conversation would be mute. When the electrician replaces one socket with an GFI Outlet and charges you $125.00 - is that overcharging? How about this past weekend, my wife brought the Jeep in to get the front brakes done - is $325.00 overcharging? Is a 25% mark-up on all components that I spent my time finding overcharging? I am not sure about yours but it costs me money to put it on my credit card!

This is a business with two goals - in this order - make lots of $$$$$ and make people happy.

A common, non "IT" person does not know that their XP system should be set NTFS.

A common, non "IT" person does not know about MTU, TTL, MaxConnectionsPerServer, MaxConnectionsPer01Server - or most of the inner workings of their system:

..."where is the System32 Folder?" The Registry, system settings, BIOS, and on and on....

A common, non "IT" person most likely does not even know this forum exists!

I sell my time, knowledge, experience - in a way so that the customer will ALWAYS remember me - this is what differenciates me from my competition in the marketplace.

Th3_uN1Qu3 is right - No benchmark is able to measure the "feel" of the system. For the end-user that only does basic tasks with their computer, that's what matters the most.

Wrapped up with quite a few extras and a smile - I have had nobody ever come back to me and say that what I did was wrong - or that their system is running worse cause of what I did to it.

But, I will tell you one thing - A Memory Upgrade is part of the "core" of a Tune-Up - I'm really surprised that I have to explain this to you:

Since normally I do not have Th3_uN1Qu3 around, after confirming via running, CPU-Z, SIW, CrucialScan, and using the Intel Chipset Identification Utility, (quite possibly confirming those findings with Ram manufacturer and HP as well) that his CPU, Motherboard, and that his memory was not upgradeable not only with the amount he had but the type - quantity but also quality - he was maxed out on both accounts.

Honestly, I would most likely not charged him the total $450 - it most likely would have been approx $150 less or the total cost of an upgrade to 1 full Gig - that is, replacing quantity but also quality. It also depended on whether his system during the Tune-Up gave me a hard time or not!

Anyway you slice it, he would have paid: $500 for hardware upgrade - $350 for 19' Monitor, Speakers, Keyboard, Lazer Mouse - $150 for decent printer - $35 for printer cable - that's not including me @ $100-$200 - we will act as if I had no involvement - meaning no mark-ups on anything...

This falls right in line with what I said $$$$$ - so why not go high-end? More Power, more speed, more storage, more Ram = more for the future! Your going to have to make payments anyways....

jcarle - Newer is not often better. If you need an example, look at Vista. Tell that to the guys with the 9x Kernel Project or the guys at the XPize and Vize Project.

Ponch - I always take my business VERY seriously.

JedMeister You are correct on all accounts - this became a heated debate over tweaking versus hardware upgrade. In fact, BOTH are needed, but none the less, all the OP wanted was to fix what was broken - In fact, I don't think he would have paid for anything except a minor Memory Upgrade, if that was possible.

Sometimes I get alot of weird stuff here in terms of customers - here's an example (let's not argue over this one - what done is done) -

Two ladies walked into my shop a while back - referred from a past customer that I didn't remember - It seemed that one, the Wife, and two, the Therapist, was dealing with a Husband with a serious Porn Addiction and wanted to know if I could stop him from getting online to his favorite websites. From what I gathered, this was costing this family a whole bunch of money and needed to stop.

I smiled and said "Sure - just take away the computer" They didn't get the joke - the Wife said that she liked the computer, so did the kids and even the Husband needed it for work, e-mail, etc.

What to do? Well, after thinking about it (I'm still trying hard not to laugh - fun times, I'll tell ya!)

I came up with this: Using a combination of Open DNS, Content Filtering, Domain Blocking, Adult Site Blocking, Internet Explorer 7's Restricted Zone, HostsMan / HostsServer, and a well-rounded Hosts File - entries gathered from the Keylogger I installed without his knowledge - The Husband could not access his favorite sites - or any "bad" sites for that matter - nor could he figure out how I did it nor could he figure out how to "fix" it - the client's family was very pleased, to be sure!

HostsServer acts like a local HTTP Server - you can also replace the 404 page...

"Access Denied. You are not allow to view this site. A notification e-mail has been sent to the System Administrator which will be forwarded to your Wife and Therapist. Please surf away from this website immediately."

I also put a couple of graphics there - family pictures approved by the Wife.

Like I said, I hard a hard time keeping a straight face during it all!

I handle mostly general hardware or software upgrades, security enhancements, Virus or Spyware infections, crashes and recovery, slow computers, parental controls, enhancing internet connection speed, tune-ups, stupid questions, dumb customers, basic training, and the like.

Simple basic stuff really, nothing fancy - I just got a customer off Win 98 to XP SP3 - after 5 years!

Th3_uN1Qu3 - Your right, I don't get right all the time. I have to disagree with you on Dell - Yes, their phone support isn't "world-class" and "5 stars" but it works for me - for a year I do not have to deal with stupid questions, like: "Why doesn't my printer print in color?" You know what I mean...

As for ordering parts or components, I had only a few problems with that - they send me the wrong stuff and had to wait a few extra days for the return to go through.

The old printer does not work with Vista? I've had that problem many times in the past, it's one of the reasons why I recommend Dell - The all-in-one 948 never gave me trouble in a Vista setup - but then I have had only a few so take that for what it's worth...

jcarle - Money in the bank! "There are literally thousands of things" - alot of what you described there the customer does not know - or understand - why should I teach them for free?

Bottom line - If the customer wants to learn more about their system, why can't I charge them a fee for "basic training"? Some folks feel that everyone on this planet knows about this kind of stuff because they do - basic maintenance and staying on top of security? I beg to differ.

The OP's Uncle is a fine example - He most likely got Norton when he first bought it as a 45 or 90 day promotional thing - back in 2001 - and decided to subscribe to the service - been there ever since.

If he knew that Norton would be a resource hog on his system, really good chances are he wouldn't have subscribed to the service - why cannot I make money on his lack of knowledge?

Free Advice - I give it all the time - read the first posts - but I have to draw the line somewhere, no?

Okay, I'm done ranting for this evening - have a good one to all!

poolsharkzz

[CoffeeFiend]

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

you would allow him to walk away with his old CRT Monitor (do I really have to go there?) Keyboard (full of goo, slime, black marks on keys, keys faded, drinks spilled, stains, discolored, dust trapped in-between keys, the "A" and "T" keys stick, Roller Ball Mouse get clogged up with dust, hair, goo and crap every two weeks, etc. from what year - 2001? Not to mention the incredibility sub-standard printer that came standard with those systems?

Yet, you have no problem with charging him a lot of money too, and letting him keep all that old "junk" then. If it works fine, he can keep it, I don't see the issue. And if doesn't, then he's gonna have to buy a new one in both cases. You don't have a point, you just want to make new systems or hardware upgrades overpriced to justify overcharging people.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

a hardware upgrade is not what the OP asked for: "Trimming down a less than reliable XP system" - It was not: "Need advice on a cheap hardware upgrade for a XP system"

And like I said like 16 times already, I didn't say that (work on your reading comprehension skills, will ya?). I was talking about overcharging people for "tweaks" vs a hardware upgrade. Nothing more.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

The same applies here - If I caught you pushing a hardware upgrade on a customer as hard as you have been in these posts, by mid-morning you would be tossed out the door and you would've found yourself sitting the local watering hole, sipping your favorite poison, counting your pennies, wondering how you would explain to your olé lady that you lost your job.

I wouldn't work (nor want to) in shop where techs grossly overcharge customers for minor tweaks, when for the same price you can give them a REAL speed boost, have happy customers which will return for more business.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

Correct, and I have explained this many times already - you don't go backwards with the OS, going forward means Vista - Junk.

Yet again, I was saying he can upgrade the P3 hardware for a lot less than $450 and get 100x more of a speed boost than any of your tweaks will do, but you keep bringing nonsense into this (like printers, monitors, and now OS upgrades too). A hardware upgrade (new CPU, more RAM) will give them a HUGE speed boost -- a LOT more for their money. They can keep their OS if it does what they need. Again, you're the one pushing for those items to justify you overcharging people.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

"5 minutes of work on a P3 for $450" I'd break that down for you, but I don't think you would understand all that goes into it. I've explained just the very basics. in these posts...

Obviously you're the one that's lost here, totally unable to justify charging $450 for what can be 99% automated and done in 2 clicks. Now you're just resorting to personal insults and calling people stupid when you fail to come up with reasons to do so (as there are none). Nice of you! What was that rule 7b about again?

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

It takes almost an hour just to update to SP3+ via Windows Update! Not to mention Java, Flash, Shockwave, Adobe, QuickTime, DirectX, .Net, extra Micro$oft programs, etc.

Someone hasn't heard of slipstreaming, unattended installs, WSUS (or running updates locally), silent installers, scripts, or any of that stuff obviously.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

When the electrician replaces one socket with an GFI Outlet and charges you $125.00 - is that overcharging?

The electrician does a house call (drives both ways), requires actual knowledge/certifications (as in, having gone to college, and knowing the electrical code and all that), etc.
Whereas, a very simple .cmd file can apply all your reg tweaks, run uninstallers/installers/patches and all that, in one double click -- no work at all, hardly any knowledge required.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

How about this past weekend, my wife brought the Jeep in to get the front brakes done - is $325.00 overcharging?

You're paying for the mechanics' time (a lot of hard labor). And they need a lot of specialized & very expensive stuff (garage, with lift, tons of tools including many specialized), and they tend to be far more trained than your average A+ guy doing house calls too. Now include parts and all, and it quickly gets expensive.

Poolsharkzz, on Aug 25 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

Newer is not often better. If you need an example, look at Vista. Tell that to the guys with the 9x Kernel Project or the guys at the XPize and Vize Project.

More nonsense, heh.

[DigeratiPrime]

I'll admit first I haven't read through the whole thread. With that said I will try to keep my opinion on the original post simple.

Performance is an economic problem: do the performance advantages of new hardware justify the cost; likewise are the performance disadvantages of older hardware insignificant and the savings are justified?

There are two* ways to increase performance: free-up system resources to specific tasks OR add system resources across the board, *or do both. Depending on how old your hardware it may make sense to add resources to areas that are bottlenecks, commonly RAM. However even a TB of ram will not help a system with a P1 (in virtually any realistic situation).

Unfortunately with older hardware there comes a point where the cost savings are offset IMO with the increased support costs and productivity loss; and in some cases energy savings. Generally tweaks that attempt to increase performance will have diminishing returns...