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The Solution for Seagate 7200.11 HDDs

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#1126
bloodraveb27

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Can I ask a question to those guys who used USB-TTL converter, do you have to connect the board to a battery or PC power? as I can read from the product description, it can get power from the USB port.

Thanks.

if you're using USB A / USB B writer cable(this will be connect with usb and converter)you dont need any battery and ofc you will need your own pc sata power cable afaik...
otherwise
look 101. post http://www.msfn.org/...o...8807&st=100

Edited by bloodraveb27, 05 April 2009 - 02:33 AM.



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#1127
bloodraveb27

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I was having a hell of a time getting any response from the drive in terminal using an original Nokia CA-42 cable; but I thought I would share some of my research.

If you bought an original Nokia CA-42 (and not a cheaper eBay type) adapter a few things are needed to make things work.

1. Download drivers from: http://europe.nokia.com/A4144937
2. Splice wire.

BLACK -> GROUND
WHITE -> RX
BLUE -> TX
YELLOW -> (TO 3.3V BATTERY NEGITIVE)
RED -> (TO 3.3V BATTERY POSITIVE)

3. Ground needs to be connected to the PCB in order to get a response from terminal. No ground, no go.

BTW:

I also purchased:

FM232RQ (which is the really cool small thing) and a FM242RL. They do not work; do not waste your time.

what does this mean exactly? i thouht gnd to 2. pin at hdd is enough what do you mean with PCB and what you puchased? about FM232RQ and FM242RL i didnt understand what you mean about these 2 item?
and about my cable is ca-42 made in china i got with nearly 5 $ and you are saying orginal ca-42 cable and i thout it's nearly 60-70$ nearly one of new HDD ...
my problem is looking like gnd this is why i am curious about your post :)

#1128
MikeT31

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I followed the guide and encountered the "Unknown Diag Cmd Failure 12CC4" error after step "F3 1>N1 (enter)." Do you know what it means?

#1129
pichi

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I followed the guide and encountered the "Unknown Diag Cmd Failure 12CC4" error after step "F3 1>N1 (enter)." Do you know what it means?

Have you unmounted the PCB?
Have you reseted or powered off the PCB before N1 command?

#1130
MikeT31

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Have you reseted or powered off the PCB before N1 command?


No. I used TTL-232R-3V3 cable. Very simple to use. The connection to the drive works. I was able to spin it up and down. The spin up is very smooth, so the problem is probably no physical.
My drive is 1TB ST31000340AS, firmware SD15. So the extra fix used for 500 GB drives does not apply.

I did the following three times.

Use 2 pieces of paper card to isolate both the Motor connector and HDMA contacts.
Turn on power to the RS232-to-TTL adapter and the hard drive.
Press CTRL+z.
F3 T>
F3 T>/2 (enter)
F3 2>
F3 2>Z (enter)
Spin Down Complete
Elapsed Time 0.147 msecs
F3 2>
Very carefully, remove the cardstock and tighten the screws.
F3 2>U (enter)
Spin Up Complete
Elapsed Time 7.093 secs
F3 2>
F3 2>/1 (enter)
F3 1>N1 (enter)
Unknown Diag Cmd Failure 12CC4 appeared.


The connection with the drive remained. I was able to physically spin it down using Z command.
12CC4 must mean something. Converted to binary it is a 20 bit code, but I don't know what it means.

#1131
ElectroGeeza

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Hi everyone!

First of all, thanks a lot for this useful information! Even if I personally may not be able to or know how to follow this procedure in the end, I'm sure it will be sueful to a lot of people out there and that alone is a good reason for appreciation.

Last year I assembled a new PC which uses two Barracuda 7200.11 ST3500320A disk drives, both with SD15 firmware. One is a primary drive used as system disk, and the other is a secondary storage only drive. The primary drive has serial 9QM04FVK, and the secondary has serial 9QM5MAAN. I've taken the serials off the label on the drive itself, since I can't access them both from within the PC.

The most complete story of the Barracuda 7200.11 - with serial 9QM5MAAN
The secondary drive has stopped working properly on 31 March 2009. I bought it on 11 September 2008, so it has served me for about 191 days (or 5 months and 12 days) since installation. I've had some trouble with this drive before, like once when one or two partitions disappeard. They were not visible in Windows Explorer, but the drive was detected in BIOS as usual and one of the partition was even visible but not the remaining two if I can remember. If I can remember those errors were a result of my own mess, because I once experienced difficulties expanding one of the partitions from 20 GB to like 25 GB in Windows Logical Disk Manager utility, it said something about not being able to expand the chosen volume/partition because the version of Windows Vista I was using doesn't support dynamic disks. I am using Vista Home Premium and it's true that it doesn't feature the "dynamic disk" thing, but that's OK, I don't need that. I have been using this Windows disk manager ever since Windows XP, at least, and I have been using it several times without an issue in my Vista to both expanded and reduce disk volumes/partitions. I did nothing unusual this time, just right-clicked on the disk volume and chose the option to expand it, and I ofcourse made sure there was disk space available and un-allocated to grab space from. But it attempted to make it a dynamic disk for some wierd reason, obviously, since it returned that error talking about "dynamic disks" and s*** which I didn't even ask for or chose to do. I think it was trying to convert a "standard" disk to a "dynamic" one. Vista Home Premium doesn't support that, so naturally it failed. But the most stupid thing about it is that I didn't even ask to convert it to a dynamic disk!!!...

So I heard that Partition Magic could do the job and I downloaded a copy to try it because I was recommended to use that one instead. Well, if I knew it wasn't supported by Vista I wouldn't, but now it was too late. At start-up it said it had found some error and asked me if I should let it try to fix it. Having in mind the problems I experienced with Vistas own disk utility I though it may have found something wrong, so I said yes.

The message would look something like this.

PowerQuest PartitionMagic has detected an error 110 on the partition starting at sector 2048 on disk 2.

The length of the partition in the partition table is incorrect.
The CHS length is 488390017, the LBA length is 488384496, and the File System length is 488384495.
PowerQuest PartitionMagic has determined that the length can be changed to the correct value of 488390017.

Would you like PowerQuest PartitionMagic to fix this error?


It asked the same question several times, at least 8 times, and I started to feel uncomfortable but I kept saying yes on all of them. At last the PartitionMagic interface showed up. I think it was version 8.

I can't remember if it was immidiately after this that the partitions disappeared or later or after a system restart. But I strongly believe that they disappeared after these "corrections". I think it was after a restart I didn't find the two partitions, only the third. When I then started PartitionMagic again it didn't show those same messages, but instead it indicated the two partitions that were now invisible to Windows Explorer as "BAD". So they were visible in PartitionMagic but not in Windows Explorer. What a stupid peace of software, first it says it can fix an errorous disk drive, and then it says the same disk or partition on it is BAD!! PARTITION MAGIC SCREWED ME OVER!!! AND THEN IT LAUGHT IN MY FACE!!! Then I researched a little bit and found out that others have had the same or similar experience and that it wasn't even officially supported by Vista.

The same guy who recommended me PartitionMagic then recommended me Acronis Disk Director, and I have been using that one instead ever since, without any issues.

How did I fix the missing partitions? I heard from another guy about a open-source project called Testdisk, so downloaded it, and used it to rebuild the partition tables. That solved the whole problem with missing partitions.

Now to expand the partition I wanted to from the beginning I used Acronis Disk Director and expanded it sucessfully.

All was working well since that, but after installing what later turned out to be a bad, too old or non-compatible driver for the newly purchased and installed SATA RAID controller card with the VIA VT6421 controller chip, I have been facing some serious issues with this very same disk drive that was connected to it. It was still visible but unaccessible in Windows Explorer. After several days of researching and experimenting I found a way around to access the partitions on it. It turned out that inactivating UAC in Vista allowed me to access the partitions on the drive without any issues, and once UAC was active again it got unaccessible again. Weird! Also, when UAC was inactive and I logged on to my user account, I was getting a warning message saying something about the Recycle-bin on one of the partitions being damaged and asked me if I wanted to empty it. Once I chose to empty it I think I got rid of that message for good. But it's interesting, you will never be confronted with a message like that for a very long time, perhaps never ever if you're lucky.

I let the UAC be off temporarily and was planning to backup the files from this disk drive and then re-format it, but it got totally unaccessible before I could do that. At the moment it hapened i was just viewing a PDF file in Adobe Acrobat Pro and I noticed a slow performance almost hanging the software, so I shut down Acrobat. Then I re-opened it again with no problem and countinued to read my PDF document. Later I noticed the partitions on that drive were missing, AGAIN! I re-started the PC in order for the BIOS to recognize it again, but that didn't happen. I was still able to log on to Windows thou since the system disk seemed OK. I was confused and didn't know what to do. Then I remembered reading about the firmware problems with Seagate Barracuda 7200.11. I started to read more about it and found out that the problem affected other models in this disk drive family and not only the 1 Terrabyte or 1.5 Terrabyte models like I thought it did. Jeeezzz!! :/ I checked the serials above against Seagates serial check utility and it showed that the system disk was not affected but the storage drive was among the affected ones.

It was too late for me to upgrade the firmware on it since it was already locked in the BSY state. I have concluded that this is the case with my drive, because when it's connected the HDD LED stays lit all the time and BIOS doesn't recognize it. The BIOS does seem to be able to feel the presence of the drive on that IDE channel but it lists it as "None" on that second line at POST where it should say "ST3500320AS". It doesn't halt the system start time mutch, but it does take a bit longer for the BIOS than usual, like 10 seconds more than usual to go through the POST.

I could have just read those first reports on Barracuda 7200.11 more throughly and found out that my disk drive was one of the affected models, I could almost feel this coming. But I chose to stick with the motto "don't fix it if it's not broken" and now I have to deal with it the hard way. I've learned that prevention is just as important if not even more important than fixing problems.

About this thread
I have read the WHOLE thread of 19 pages at Seagate forum started by user Inviste. And I have read very much of the second thread here at MSFN forum which picks up where the first thread at Seagate forum left off. Since the Mods there have closed the thread it took me a while to find the solution that Fatlip was on to. I believe that this is it, rigth? Is it the official one? Or did he post the solution at some other place first, like at HDD Guru? I won't even bother commenting on Seagates behaviour towards their customers, and the Mods deleting and editing and finally closing the thread at the forum over there on their website.

I see that this one is not started by Fatlip, but it's a good one. It could have been written better thou, and by that I don't mean the somewhat bad english, I mean the disposition of the text, the linking to the adapters and other parts needed for this project. I find it all a bit confusing. I appreciate the effort and all that, and thank you Gradius2 for that! I'm just being honest. If you would like to get any suggestions on how it could be improved, I'll be glad to help out.

When or if I manage to bring my disk back to life, I'll understand better how this tutorial could be improved. I think Fatlip has suggested that he or his friend would be filming the whole procedure, but I haven't seen it yet. That could be a way to deal with it, but I personally prefer textual tutorials with lots of graphics and pictures for guidance. Pictures is something I've been missing in this tutorial, I see that Gradius2 has added more pictures when he got his parts delivered, but I'm still missing the step by step kind of instructions accompanied with i.e. screenshots of the actual terminal window.

About this firmware problem
I've chatted with Thomas M. at Seagate tech support about this problem few days ago and he told me to call Seagate company i365 at their facility in UK and make some arrangements, he said they would help me. He said they won't help with free data recovery, but with free firmware update on their expense, I would only pay the postage fee. I don't know exactly what he meant, but it sounded like he was saying that the guys there would unlock the drive if it's already in locked in the BSY state and then upgrade the firmware. What do you guys know about this?

About this recovery method

The hardware
Do I need to have access to two computers at the same time? If I understand it correctly I need to supply the HDD with power from the PSU of one PC (12V Molex connector) and I need another PC to interface with the HDD. Is that correct?

I have replaced the Nokia CA-53 data cable that followed with my Nokia N73 with a new one because the old one didn't work properly after some time of use (glitchy Pop-Port connector). Could I use that old CA-53 cable for this purpose? I see some users mentioning the use of a CA-42, but could I use CA-53 as well? Does that one also include the RS232/TTL transceiver in it like the CA-42?

My PC doesn't have any Serial Port, only USB ports. Do I have to use strictly a USB-RS232-TTL adapter or can I use a USB-RS232 adapter cable in combination with a RS232-TTL adapter?

Since I was unable to find the most important thing - the TTL adapter - in local stores, I visited two online stores in Sweden - Electrokit, and ELFA - the second one being one of northern Europe's leading supplier of electronics.

Here are my findings. I have posted them all so that other users from Sweden can find the stuff faster. I think Electrokit is the best equiped online store in Sweden for this kind of small scale electronics projects, otherwise for larger projects ELFA is probably the best store to go with.

@ Electrokit

Arduino USB extension (USB to TTL??)

LilyPad USB link(USB to TTL??)

RS232/TTL nivåomvandlare (level shifter, "Spark Fun" branded)

USB-seriell omvandlare FT232RL

USB-RS232 omvandlare för PC

Kopplingstråd

Mät och test kablage

Kontakt PCB 2.54mm 4-pol

Kontakt med kabel 4-pol 20 cm

CR2032 batteri lithium 3V

Batterihållare CR2016/2025/2032 plast

@ ELFA

The website is utilizing Javascripts for the product web pages, so I can't directlink to these. You need to visit their website for international customers at https://www1.elfa.se...en/b2b/start.do and make a search for the stock number below to see the products.

73-206-58
FT232BL USB - Serial interface LQFP32

73-206-59
FT232RL USB - Serial interface SSOP28

73-206-60
FT232RQ USB - Serial interface QFN32

73-206-73
TTL-232R USB-TTL cable 5V I/O

73-206-74
TTL-232R-3V3 USB-TTL cable 3.3V I/O

25-164-09
USB-RS232 adaptor DB9m

ELFA also has mounting wires, jumpers or similar testing or lab kind of products, button-cell batteries and sockets and even batteries for PCB mounting. So they basically have all the stuff found at Electrokit, but they don't seem to have any RS232 to TTL adapter modules like the one from Sprk Fun, they seem to have only kits which you have to build on your own.

I would really appreciate some help with finding the parts. At least one of the online stores above (ELFA or Electrokit) should have most of the stuff, but I'm not absolutely sure what to look for and I rather not do any soldering work, especially not on the drive itself so I would prefer any method that doesn't involve soldering. So I'll appreciated any help finding the parts I need.

The terminal software
Do I have to use HyperTerminal or could I use some other terminal software? if I could use others as well, do you have any suggestions of which one? I am running Windows Vista. The HyperTerminal software that Microsoft licensed from Hilgraeve Software for Windows 2000 through XP is not included anymore in Windows Vista. I have visited the Hilgraeve website, but there it says that "HyperTerminal Private Edition version 7.0 is available for Windows Vista" but it also says that it's a "free 30 day trial". So it's not mutch of a free software after all, is it?!

Have you guys been using the trial version for this project? I'm not so willing to use a trial version of a software for such an important and crucial operations. I can't imagine that you all have Windows XP with this software included, at least someone must have met this difficulty with Vista and perhaps used another software. Any free or free and open-source suggestions are welcome. I know there are plenty open-source projects of this type out there, but none that I've used before and have any knowledge from. This is surely something that could be mentioned in the tutorial, what other alternative software could be used instead of HyperTerminal, instead of just stating that you could use your favorite terminal software besides the HyperTerminal.

The device driver
What about the device driver for the USB-RS232 adaptor? Does Windows have any such drivers built in to it, or do I have to build my own, or find one on the Internet? Will this be an issue?

I won't go into the details about the instructions for using the terminal software right now, this reply of mine has already gone wild and become a more lenghty one then I oricinally planned. So I'll just put a period here so you can catch up on what I've already written.

Thanks in adance! And I want to specially thank Fatlip and Gradius2 for their efforts on this problem!

Edited by ElectroGeeza, 05 April 2009 - 08:55 AM.


#1132
jaclaz

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@ElectroGeeza

Not an answer to all your questions, but only to a few of your doubts:
Rest assured that not Partition Magic nor Acronis Disk Director caused the firmware of the HD to fail.

FYI:
http://everything2.c...?node_id=935597

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist


to which I may add:

The second greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that partition manipulating utilities are foolproof.


:P

the problem was not due to the programs, but to the way they were used, but still it has no relation to the firmware problem that is originated by Seagate.

A single PC is enough, as you can power the interface with a couple batteries or even, as well as the HD from the same Power Supply of the PC on which you are running Hyperterminal.

Easier would be to borrow a PC, possibly a laptop, with XP (and Hyperterminal) to perform the reviviving.

jaclaz

#1133
pichi

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Have you reseted or powered off the PCB before N1 command?


No. I used TTL-232R-3V3 cable. Very simple to use. The connection to the drive works. I was able to spin it up and down. The spin up is very smooth, so the problem is probably no physical.
My drive is 1TB ST31000340AS, firmware SD15. So the extra fix used for 500 GB drives does not apply.

I did the following three times.

Use 2 pieces of paper card to isolate both the Motor connector and HDMA contacts.
Turn on power to the RS232-to-TTL adapter and the hard drive.
Press CTRL+z.
F3 T>
F3 T>/2 (enter)
F3 2>
F3 2>Z (enter)
Spin Down Complete
Elapsed Time 0.147 msecs
F3 2>
Very carefully, remove the cardstock and tighten the screws.
F3 2>U (enter)
Spin Up Complete
Elapsed Time 7.093 secs
F3 2>
F3 2>/1 (enter)
F3 1>N1 (enter)
Unknown Diag Cmd Failure 12CC4 appeared.


The connection with the drive remained. I was able to physically spin it down using Z command.
12CC4 must mean something. Converted to binary it is a 20 bit code, but I don't know what it means.

Ctrl+z
F3 T>/C
F3 C>Q
(List all commands of your hdd)

#1134
bloodraveb27

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I want to say one important point...
is there anyone who had this problems https://apps1.seagat...rms_af_srl_chk/ when this chech say "Drive is not affected." "No action required."
cuz i think i do what can i do, nearly 3 days i am working on my hdd and seagate saying you didnt affected from firmware but my case is much similar like BSY error...
so could i have another problems?

#1135
Dolic

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Possible use the cable DCA-540 instead of cable for A-35? :blushing: http://pinouts.ru/Ce...emens_c55.shtml
Scheme please

#1136
ElectroGeeza

ElectroGeeza

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@ElectroGeeza

Not an answer to all your questions, but only to a few of your doubts:
Rest assured that not Partition Magic nor Acronis Disk Director caused the firmware of the HD to fail.

FYI:
http://everything2.c...?node_id=935597

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist


to which I may add:

The second greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that partition manipulating utilities are foolproof.


:P

the problem was not due to the programs, but to the way they were used, but still it has no relation to the firmware problem that is originated by Seagate.

A single PC is enough, as you can power the interface with a couple batteries or even, as well as the HD from the same Power Supply of the PC on which you are running Hyperterminal.

Easier would be to borrow a PC, possibly a laptop, with XP (and Hyperterminal) to perform the reviviving.

jaclaz

I must admit, that's an interesting rhetorical device (metaphor or analogy?)! :) As I understand it you actually suggest that my firmware problem could be caused by the partition manipulation utilities like Acronis and PartitionMagic, rather then by the firmware bug originating from Seagate? I am not sure, but I sure have my doubts, but in that case I think that using the above mentioned utilities only speeded up the time before failure (MTBF=191 days???).

So the CR2032 battery is for powering the SR232-TTL module/adaptor? I didn't completely understand the powering instructions, like when to power on, when to power off, and what to power by what power source. I understand that I can chose to either power the SR232-TTL module from the PSU of the PC, OR from the CR2032 battery. But when do I power the HDD with the 12V Molex connector?

And what was that warning about practicing the step of removing the PCB before even attempting to do it?

Now the tricky part. Pratice a lot without any power before even trying this. You need to make sure that the screws don't touch the PCB board where they aren't suppose to or you will fry your PCB board. If you have been practicing and the power is not connected, start at STEP ONE.

With the POWER CONNECTED to the PCB board, as well as your TX/RX terminal wires, mount the board back on the HDA case. You must have the power connected when you do this.


I don't get this part at all. Is he suggesting to interface with the drive BEFORE even powering it on? What is there to practice? Experimenting with sending different commands perhaps? Or is he talking about connecting the power to the PCB and then just being careful with putting it back to the HDA housing with the power connected? Why is it important to be careful? What do I have to avoid? Is he saying that I shouldn't power on the HDD with the PCB connected to the HDA?

He was also saying something about seeing the LED errors in the terminal. Is that what the warning is about? That I can connect the drive with the PCB attached in order to see those LED errors in the terminal repeating, but if I do connect the HDD with the PCB attached that the LED errors would eventually stop repeating and the HDD would be permanently blocked? Then why do it? Just to see the LED errors?...

Keep in mind those are direct from Seagate sides, so you'll need to connect in this way


What's a "Seagate side"? Does he mean to inverse the connection where RX from first device goes to TX on the other and TX of the first goes to RX? If that's what he means, then I understand it, but I'm curious if he means something else as well.

Like I said, I don't understand this very good. I am hoping to understand it by the time I get all the parts.

I want to say one important point...
is there anyone who had this problems https://apps1.seagat...rms_af_srl_chk/ when this chech say "Drive is not affected." "No action required."
cuz i think i do what can i do, nearly 3 days i am working on my hdd and seagate saying you didnt affected from firmware but my case is much similar like BSY error...
so could i have another problems?


When I check the two of my ST3500320AS disk drives against Seagates serial check utility, it says that the system disk isn't affected and doesn't need any actions just like it says for your disk drive. I'm not sure whether or not I should upgrade the firmware on that drive anyway. I think there were some users at the Seagate forum reporting that their drives got locked even thou they were listed as not affected.

Here you can see a screenshot: http://img4.imagesha...erialcheck2.jpg

Does anyone here know if we should uppgrade the SD15 firmware even for the drives that are listed as not affected?

Edited by ElectroGeeza, 05 April 2009 - 12:11 PM.


#1137
jaclaz

jaclaz

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I must admit, that's an interesting rhetorical device (metaphor or analogy?)! :) As I understand it you actually suggest that my firmware problem could be caused by the partition manipulation utilities like Acronis and PartitionMagic, rather then by the firmware bug originating from Seagate? I am not sure, but I sure have my doubts, but in that case I think that using the above mentioned utilities only speeded up the time before failure (MTBF=191 days???).


NO :(, what I was trying to say is that YOU used IMPROPERLY Partition Magic (or Acronis) and thus messed up your partition:
  • not a fault of the programs but of the use that was made of them
    AND
  • not your fault as most people think that using such programs is easy (IT IS NOT, and can lead to partitioning corruption), and you were misled by the apparent easyness of use of them

BUT
the problem with the hard disk firmware is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to messing with partitions:
  • not a fault of the programs
    AND
  • not your fault
    BUT
  • ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY by Seagate's fault by having a badly written firmware/test procedure/test machine in factory

I was trying to reassure you that Partition Magic, Acronis and your misuse of them :whistle: are absolutely NOT guilty of having damaged the hard disk, what you did at software level carries NO CONSEQUENCES whatever at firmware one.

You are COMPLETELY innocent!

:)

jaclaz

#1138
bloodraveb27

bloodraveb27
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I want to say one important point...
is there anyone who had this problems https://apps1.seagat...rms_af_srl_chk/ when this chech say "Drive is not affected." "No action required."
cuz i think i do what can i do, nearly 3 days i am working on my hdd and seagate saying you didnt affected from firmware but my case is much similar like BSY error...
so could i have another problems?

When I check the two of my ST3500320AS disk drives against Seagates serial check utility, it says that the system disk isn't affected and doesn't need any actions just like it says for your disk drive. I'm not sure whether or not I should upgrade the firmware on that drive anyway. I think there were some users at the Seagate forum reporting that their drives got locked even thou they were listed as not affected.

Here you can see a screenshot: http://img4.imagesha...erialcheck2.jpg

Does anyone here know if we should uppgrade the SD15 firmware even for the drives that are listed as not affected?

At your case is second driver look like affected i want to say if also second driver got BSY error this will effect the whole system(pc will not open)
for me this seagate is my second driver and i was only usage for storage...
try to open pc only with primary(which driver installed windows)(take out second drivers power and sata data cable before open pc ...
so you can understand maybe the first driver is OK

#1139
ElectroGeeza

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I must admit, that's an interesting rhetorical device (metaphor or analogy?)! :) As I understand it you actually suggest that my firmware problem could be caused by the partition manipulation utilities like Acronis and PartitionMagic, rather then by the firmware bug originating from Seagate? I am not sure, but I sure have my doubts, but in that case I think that using the above mentioned utilities only speeded up the time before failure (MTBF=191 days???).


NO :(, what I was trying to say is that YOU used IMPROPERLY Partition Magic (or Acronis) and thus messed up your partition:
  • not a fault of the programs but of the use that was made of them
    AND
  • not your fault as most people think that using such programs is easy (IT IS NOT, and can lead to partitioning corruption), and you were misled by the apparent easyness of use of them

BUT
the problem with the hard disk firmware is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to messing with partitions:
  • not a fault of the programs
    AND
  • not your fault
    BUT
  • ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY by Seagate's fault by having a badly written firmware/test procedure/test machine in factory

I was trying to reassure you that Partition Magic, Acronis and your misuse of them :whistle: are absolutely NOT guilty of having damaged the hard disk, what you did at software level carries NO CONSEQUENCES whatever at firmware one.

You are COMPLETELY innocent!

:)

jaclaz


Well, thanks for clearing that out for me. I wouldn't either expect this kind of manipulations on software layer to have any impact on the firmware. But then I'm pretty sure that software is able to communicate with the firmware, and then the firmware can communicate with the hardware. So anything is possible, even the impossible. The possible is already done, it's the impossible that's interesting. ;)

I have only positive thoughts about the Acronis Disk Director, so I don't think it could have destroyed anything. If it can't fix something it won't destroy it either. It's the PartitionMagic that's the bad guy here. Magic???... haha, yeah, sure!! If you want to put it that way. :rolleyes:

If you by easiness of use mean the message I was getting when starting PartitionMagic for the first time, then I'm sure a smart software shouldn't behave this way prompting the user to take action on this matter if it's something critical by which the partition table may be destroyed. Instead of that, the software should let the more advanced user be able to perform these tasks by starting the operation manually once they enter the software. Or perhaps if the advanced user wants to be prompted with this kind of thing when starting the software like this, then he should be able to set that up in the settings, where the default setting is NOT to prompt these questions. That's the way I would have designed it at least. From my experience I know that the less settings and things you mess with in a software the least are the chances you destroy or mess up something badly, and some software are too intrusive (don't know a better word for it) by both having too many options available as default and asking too many questions and things like that. I'm sure it's appreciated by advanced users or users familiar with the particular software, but for a novice it's just too much.

#1140
ElectroGeeza

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At your case is second driver look like affected i want to say if also second driver got BSY error this will effect the whole system(pc will not open)
for me this seagate is my second driver and i was only usage for storage...
try to open pc only with primary(which driver installed windows)(take out second drivers power and sata data cable before open pc ...
so you can understand maybe the first driver is OK


  • The 9QM04FVK is the system disk on this PC system, and according to Seagate's serial check utility it's not one of the affected drives even thou it does have the SD15 firmware. What this means is that on this disk drive resides the SD15 which is the bad firmware, but this drive has probably not gone through the bad testing process which in turn means that the bug in the SD15 firmware won't ever be exhibited thanks to the correct testing process. But this still doesn't change the fact that the bad firmware resides on this drive.

  • Since 9QM04FVK is the system disk, I am still able to load Windows with no problem.

  • The 9QM5MAAN is the faulty disk here, and it's used only for storage, not for Windows.

  • I have been using the 9QM04FVK as system disk for a long time now, and I'm sure it's OK. I have never had any difficulties with it ever, it works perfectly, and I think the Seagate serial check confirms that. But since I have had this bad experience with the 9QM5MAAN I am afraid that the system disk will give up on me as well. I must say that I didn't purchase these two disks at the same time, or even from the same store, so that would explain why one works perfectly and one is faulty. The probability for both of them working perfectly would seem very high if I had purchased them both from the same store. So I'm sure they both didn't came with the same shipment from the manufacturer, where one came from the healthy production line, while the other didn't have the same luck.


#1141
xoncegame

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hi,
i join rx, tx from my serial port on mainboard directly to hdd and connect sata power,
run hyperterminal with those setting, ctrl+z, but show an arrow instead of F3 T>
what,s problem?

Edited by xoncegame, 05 April 2009 - 04:15 PM.


#1142
ElectroGeeza

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hi,
i join rx, tx from my serial port on mainboard directly to hdd and connect sata power,
run hyperterminal with those setting, ctrl+z, but show an arrow instead of F3 T>
what,s problem?


  • What?... what do you mean by serial port?... you mean the legacy serial port (SR232) or serial ATA port (S-ATA)? Actually it doesn't matter which one you mean, I don't think that's the way you're suppose to do it. You can't connect neither the SR232 nor the S-ATA directly to the RX and TX on the HDD, especially not the S-ATA. You have to connect the RX and TX of the HDD to a standard SR232 serial port on the PC, so that's correct, but you can't connect them "directly" they still have to pass through a TTL to/from SR232 adapter. I don't see you mentioning that you have this one, you just state that you connected it directly and that won't work. You may even damage your disk drive that way permanently. You need to have the SR232 to/from TTL adapter which is a crucial part of this whole assembly.

  • When exactly do you connect S-ATA power?... before running the HyperTerminal?... I have not done this yet on my drive but as I understand it you will have to connect the TX and RX from the HDD to a SR232-TTL adapter first and then enter HyperTerminal and press CTRL+Z, before connecting the S-ATA (Molex 12V) power connector to the HDD.

  • The problem is that you are not doing this the right way, I'm afraid. And if I'm not mistaken, you were supposed to un-screw one or two of the Torx 6 (T6) screws to release the PCB from the HDA housing and put an isolating material like plastic in-between in order to disconnect the disk motor from the PCB, before even connecting the TX and RX from the HDD to the RS232-TTL adapter and entering HyperTerminal, and pressing CTRL+Z. Then after pressing CTRL+Z, and getting the F3 T> prompt, and writing /2 to enter the Level 2, you would write Z and press Enter to slow down the motor. Then with the S-ATA power connected you would remove the plastic (or other) isolator between the PCB and HDA to make contact with the motor and screw the PCB back in place, and then speed up the motor by writing U and pressing Enter.

  • Also, did you make sure you have powered the SR232-TTL adaptor? You have to power this one as well, preferably with a CR2032 battery. It won't work otherwise.

I'm not 100% sure about the whole procedure... yet... and I have not done this yet on my own disk drive. If I understand it correctly you need to write Z at Level2 "to slow down the motor" even thou the motor isn't actually running yet since the S-ATA (Molex 12V) power connector isn't connected yet. The purpose of this step or instruction I think is to preparing the HDD motor for a slow or easy start, so that when you do connect the S-ATA (Molex 12V) power connector to power the motor it won't start at a high speed. Then after connecting the power to it, you speed it up with the U command.

Could anyone verify this? Am I giving out false information?... I would have use of it as well, so don't hasitate to verify these claims or correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks in advance!

Edited by ElectroGeeza, 05 April 2009 - 05:21 PM.


#1143
jaclaz

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If you by easiness of use mean the message I was getting when starting PartitionMagic for the first time, then I'm sure a smart software shouldn't behave this way prompting the user to take action on this matter if it's something critical by which the partition table may be destroyed. Instead of that, the software should let the more advanced user be able to perform these tasks by starting the operation manually once they enter the software. Or perhaps if the advanced user wants to be prompted with this kind of thing when starting the software like this, then he should be able to set that up in the settings, where the default setting is NOT to prompt these questions. That's the way I would have designed it at least. From my experience I know that the less settings and things you mess with in a software the least are the chances you destroy or mess up something badly, and some software are too intrusive (don't know a better word for it) by both having too many options available as default and asking too many questions and things like that. I'm sure it's appreciated by advanced users or users familiar with the particular software, but for a novice it's just too much.


Last Out of Topic reply, I swear. :blushing:

ANY partition manipulating utility, is "risky" business, "advanced users" would use "advanced tools" (NOT Partition Magic, NOT Acronis) to directly check and edit the data if needed, and in any case "advanced users" know that before even thinking of messing with partitions a full image of the drive is needed, as Murphy's Law is ALWAYS around to try and prove itself right once again.

A well designed software, as I see it, should have an aggressive interface ;), ideally it would simply shout at you "ARE YOU CRAZY? YOU DON'T HAVE A WAY BACK" and SLAP you on the face. :whistle:

Those softwares are very powerful weapons put lightly in the hands of "average users" or "novices" not trained/knowledgeable enough about the possibility that something can go wrong.

When they work they are great, when they don't "average user" is unprepared to the resulting disaster.

jaclaz

#1144
cl00m

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Hello

I have tried your solution with a max3232 converter and serial cable in com1, I have connected rx tx to the hdd pins, v+ and gnd, v+ on orange or red (same results) wire of a power unit, and gnd on black wire of power unit.

The D1 led is blinking, but CTRL Z doesnt work, my hard drive (maxtor diamondmax 22 mx15) is in BSY and doesnt answer, I have removed a screw to put a paper thing onto the motor. But no more answer from hyperterminal.

Posted Image

Perhaps I have to connect rx2 and tx2 whereas rx and tx ?

Thx

PS : sorry for the bad photo, its from my htc, and sorry for my bad english, im french ! ;)

Edited by cl00m, 06 April 2009 - 08:43 AM.


#1145
pichi

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...
I have tried your solution with a max3232 converter and serial cable in com1, I have connected rx tx to the hdd pins, v+ and gnd, v+ on orange or red (same results) wire of a power unit, and gnd on black wire of power unit.
...
Perhaps I have to connect rx2 and tx2 whereas rx and tx ?
...

You try first connect GND to HDD too, the third pin of the jumper's connector (NC - GND - TX - RX)
If this doesn't work try rx2 and tx2, with gnd too.

Edited by pichi, 06 April 2009 - 09:43 AM.


#1146
ElectroGeeza

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Last Out of Topic reply, I swear. :blushing:

ANY partition manipulating utility, is "risky" business, "advanced users" would use "advanced tools" (NOT Partition Magic, NOT Acronis) to directly check and edit the data if needed, and in any case "advanced users" know that before even thinking of messing with partitions a full image of the drive is needed, as Murphy's Law is ALWAYS around to try and prove itself right once again.

A well designed software, as I see it, should have an aggressive interface ;), ideally it would simply shout at you "ARE YOU CRAZY? YOU DON'T HAVE A WAY BACK" and SLAP you on the face. :whistle:

Those softwares are very powerful weapons put lightly in the hands of "average users" or "novices" not trained/knowledgeable enough about the possibility that something can go wrong.

When they work they are great, when they don't "average user" is unprepared to the resulting disaster.

jaclaz


I couldn't agree more, this discussion is going a way off topic, and as such it doesn't help users much with the initial problem with the Seagate disk drives.

I wouldn't say that it's totally unrelated, partitioning, formatting, changing disk geometry, checking for errors or any such task is absolutely related with hard disk drives. These are usually the software tools used for maintaining, administrating and or solving disk drive related problems. So it's not like we're discussing Diesel engines or Rocket science here, this discussion is absolutely related to this topic, but we've moved the focus a bit too far away from the initial problem of this topic.

Could we go back to the original problem now? But before we do that, here is how I think we can summarize this spin-off discussion.

  • Using disk partition manipulation utilities is a tricky business. I agree on that.

  • The firmware of a device such as the hard disk drive (HDD) is a microcode which is stored on a reserved memory on a EEPROM, EPROM or PROM chip in the device itself, while the partition-information of a disk drive is stored on the disk platters. Therefore, changes made to the disk partitions can not affect the firmware.

  • The statement that "what you did at software level carries NO CONSEQUENCES whatever at firmware one" does not hold true. I am assuming that what you were probably trying to say is what I said above - changes made to the disk partitions can not affect the firmware - but your expressed it in a wrong way. It's wrong because the use of computer software (software level or software layer) can and will have consequences for the firmware if designed so.

    For a relevant comparison, take the following in consideration. After the reports of bad firmware on the Barracuda family disk drives came in to Seagate, they have designed a new firmware or re-designed the bad firmware to address the problems in it. In order to allow the end-users to deploy the new firmware to their disk drives, Seagate have also designed a special software for making this possible, which, once executed, would re-program the ROM chip of the disk drive with the new firmware. If that's not a direct consequence of using software to manipulate firmware, then I don't know what is.

    But then again, using a partition manipulation software utility such as Acronis Disk Director or PartitionMagic will not or should not be expected to have this kind of consequences, but that's just logic or even common sense if you will, since it's not designed to perform such operation then it will not do it.

    So what I'm saying here is that it's not using "software" per say that don't have any consequence for a "firmware" of any device actually and not just HDDs, but it's using exactly that kind of software application - partition manipulation software utility, better known as "Logical volume management software" - that will not have or should be expected to have consequences/affect on the firmware since it's not their primary application or aim of use.

  • Since computer software as such can and will have consequences for or affect on the firmware of a device if designed so (as explained above), then there is a potential risk that the software you use or misuse may lead to an unintentional affect or consequence on the firmware, even when the software is not originally designed to do such thing. This may happen out of several reasons, but there are at least there reasons that come to my mind. At first, this may happen because the software includes functionalities which the operator is not aware in combination with the operator not being educated enough for the use of that software, the second would be that the particular functionality in question which triggers the potential disaster is not documented in the documentation of the software, and the third would be that the software has a bug in it which the software designers were unaware of.

  • It's most probable that it's exactly this third scenario that took place with those bad firmwares of the Seagate Barracuda disk drives. It's not the use or misuse of computer software, it's the bugs in these that are the most common reason for failure of the software, the firmware, and in some cases (like this Seagate Barracuda case) even the hardware, in modern day computer world. Common computer user, and even the ones who brag to be advanced users or experts in the field, don't always seem to grasp the complexity of a computer system. Just to illustrate it: modern day PC computers are pure super computers of the past two decades, and this gap is reducing as the technological advancements move forward. And yes, it's in accordance with, not the Murphy's but the Moore's law! Murphy's law is just a joke! "Moore's law is a violation of Murphy's law. Everything gets better and better." So people don't seem to grasp the power and the complexity of a PC computer which is by far the most common type of computer today, so common that it's synonymous with "computer". And when you have one of these babies at your hands, things are not going to be either black or white, so there is plenty of reasons to fear that the use of a Logical volume management software can directly or in-directly affect the firmware of a HDD.

  • In the end, I don't think that one should be somehow afraid of this little monster. :) Users should be encouraged to widely use and experiment a lot with their computers. I'm sure that those of us who have had this problem with Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 disk drives, and who have solved the problem by following the instructions in this thread have felt great satisfaction for succeeding with this pursuit. That's how you learn things - by experimenting and experience - you experiment a lot, and those times when you fail or destroy something you learn from it and you take that with you as a great experience for the future. Any experiment comes with risks, so you should always be prepared for the worst, so having a reserve plan is not a question of if. The great lesson from this particular problem should be backup!

Ease of use of computer software
I don't agree with you Jaclaz on that a well designed software should have an "aggressive" interface as you put it. But I can somewhat agree on that it should be at least somewhat "smart" to warn you or inform you that the action you are about to take is risky or can disable other options and so on. I also like confirmation dialogs, that's should be an important feature of any well designed software, but it shouldn't be over-used of course. But these things may just be a matter of personal opinions and preference, but I have a strong feeling that (probably as a result of the reports I've read in the past) an simple and clean interface is to prefer and can scientifically be easier to prove to be more effective and easier to use. Usability of any tool or software interface in this case is first and far most defined by the level of complexity, and secondly by the ergonomic factors which don't apply much to computer software as to other designed objects. These aspects of computer software are subject of study actually in the field of HCI (Human-Computer-Interaction). There are plenty of studies on this subject you can read.

As a last thing I want to say the following. The introduction of the graphical user interface is by far the biggest achievement on this matter, and no one can argue that command line interfaces are easier to use than the their graphical user interface counterparts. Command line may be faster, and thus more effective to use in some situations than the graphical ones, but they can never compete with graphical user interfaces when it comes to ease of use. Why do I even have to point this out to you??! Just look through this thread and you can read that several users who find the command line instructions of this tutorial difficult suggest that someone makes a small software application with a graphical interface that would perform the needed commands "behind the scene" so to speak without the user having to worry about using the correct command and in the correct way. If that's not at least a good indication if not a prove that users prefer simple and clean user interfaces, then I don't know what is.

#1147
cl00m

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Ok thx pichi I'll try that tomorrow, but I have to connect GND on the converter AND on the hdd ? That's right ?

#1148
pichi

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Ok thx pichi I'll try that tomorrow, but I have to connect GND on the converter AND on the hdd ? That's right ?

GND on the converter AND on the hdd too.

#1149
probus

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Hi there, well after getting all hardware to do this job I started to work on it, when my hard disk (seagate barracuda 1tb) is conected normally (with pcb on it) I can see on hyperterminal these: LED: 000000CC FAddr: 0024A051, so far I'm ok, the problem begins when I put the card between the head contacts and the pcb, after remove pcb, place the card between, and place the screws, I connect the TX and RX ports to my hard drive, the 3v battery I'm using and put the power (from my pc) to the SATA hard drive, run hyperterminal, press CTRL+Z and it says connected but anything happens, hit again CTRL+Z and nothing happens, never happens anything with the card placed behind the pcb, I've checked the TX and RX and there are just fine... I'm kind of lost... I'm desperate, I need HELP please!!!

#1150
pichi

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Hi there, well after getting all hardware to do this job I started to work on it, when my hard disk (seagate barracuda 1tb) is conected normally (with pcb on it) I can see on hyperterminal these: LED: 000000CC FAddr: 0024A051, so far I'm ok, the problem begins when I put the card between the head contacts and the pcb, after remove pcb, place the card between, and place the screws, I connect the TX and RX ports to my hard drive, the 3v battery I'm using and put the power (from my pc) to the SATA hard drive, run hyperterminal, press CTRL+Z and it says connected but anything happens, hit again CTRL+Z and nothing happens, never happens anything with the card placed behind the pcb, I've checked the TX and RX and there are just fine... I'm kind of lost... I'm desperate, I need HELP please!!!

LED: 000000CC FAddr: 0024A051 isn't bad.
This message is because you have BSY problem.
You need connect negative terminal from the battery or adaptor to GND of the hdd (the third pin of jumper's connector, near of TX).
You unmount the PCB and you do the BSY reparation procedure.




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