[Tihiy]

Quote

I think it necessary to let more people know the "resource salvation" side of RP9.

Of course it is. I just lack time to compile all info about RP9.

[dencorso]

I've just installed RP9. I did a full install. I am not using any skin, nor 32-bit icons at the moment, but I'm using ClearType. Here're my first impressions:
Before RP9, just after system startup: 57% USER resources & 82% GDI resources.
After RP9, just after system startup: 71% USER resources & 81% GDI resources.
And the resource drain is much slower, and resource recovery (after working for some time and then closing every aplication that was not open just after startup) is much better.
Wow! Wonderful!
Thanks a whole lot Tihiy! Keep on the great work! You rock!

[dencorso]

Results reported by RetroOS on post #60 in the RP9 thread:

RetroOS, on Mar 20 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Okay, RP9 officially ROCKS!
No change in GDI, but USER resources went UP 7% from no RP to after installing RP9!!!
That is so ultimately awesome!
It was the USER resources that I always had a problem with.

Testing so far is all good.[...]

I took the liberty to quote it here because it's relevant to this thread's main topic.

[Tihiy]

Well, if your USER percentages go up that high, i have bad news for ya
It can only mean that there's too much resource intensive apps in startup.

[Queue]

Tihiy, on Mar 20 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

Well, if your USER percentages go up that high, i have bad news for ya
It can only mean that there's too much resource intensive apps are in startup.

No, no, it's GOOD news. They're talking about how much FREE resources they have. When they say resources went ''up'' by 7%, they mean 7% more free resources.

Queue

[Tihiy]

No, that's bad news. Since percents are trimmed by amount of resources left after startup programs, it means those programs eat too much resources.
I saw 3% up max.

[dencorso]

Tihiy, on Mar 20 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

Well, if your USER percentages go up that high, i have bad news for ya
It can only mean that there's too much resource intensive apps are in startup.

Sure, Tihiy!
But those are real-life configurations:
RetroOS machine's USER resources had a 7% free increase.
Mine own machine's USER resources had a 14% free increase.
Of course, I've got many real programs in start-up that do IMHO useful things, like Pop Up Killer 1.45.5, HDDHealth 2.1 and Disk Space Monitor 1.0b4 ... At any moment, from start-up onwards, I have at least 16 icons in the system tray. I've trimmed my start-up configuration to the limit. I can't do without any of the programs in the tray. I need the things they do.
Now you know why we are talking about "Heaps Expansion" since 2007... Of course, now the name of the subject might as well be changed to "Resources Salvation". But these real-life examples illustrate well the situation: even little improvements in resource management lead to impressive results, because people run many real programs from start-up onwards. Thanks to your efforts, our systems are much better now. You do rock!

This post has been edited by dencorso: 20 March 2009 - 10:14 PM

[Queue]

Tihiy, on Mar 20 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

No, that's bad news. Since percents are trimmed by amount of resources left after startup programs, it means those programs eat too much resources.
I saw 3% up max.

Ahhh, now I understand.

And dencorso... your system tray is an abomination. ^_^ Mine has two icons, and that's two too-many. The speaker icon (which I leave just so I always have one thing, because truthfully an empty system tray is weird) and ZoneAlarm. The only other thing I have run at startup is TweakUI.

Queue

[dencorso]

Queue, on Mar 20 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

And dencorso... your system tray is an abomination. ^_^ Mine has two icons, and that's two too-many. The speaker icon (which I leave just so I always have one thing, because truthfully an empty system tray is weird) and ZoneAlarm. The only other thing I have run at startup is TweakUI.

Yes, I know! Then again, my system is quite stable, and before RP9 I already had > 40h uptimes easily...
Now it's bound to be even better, because it was the resources that usually caused me to reboot.
BTW, I do run Tweak UI, too. I didn't mention it because it doesn't add any icon to the tray, so I forgot about it.
And I do run the much maligned Norton Crash Guard, that never gave me any grief, and time and again helped me avoid a reboot. Here, however, YMMV aplies, of course!

[RetroOS]

Hi folks!
Just to get my 7% USER resources increase in perspective...
Without RP or UberSkin, I had 77% USER resources free and 97% GDI resources free...
I always trim down unneeded startup apps.
With RP9 installed, I get 84% USER resources free and 97-98% GDI resources free (It sits at 97%, but sometimes it's 98% - I never saw it above 97% without RP9...)

I know Tihiy thinks this kind of increase is bad (from a technical viewpoint), but I think it's good!

So, to conclude, it would appear that RP9 is doing good things by freeing wasted resources.

[Sfor]

I've been thinking about the GDI resources limit while reading this thread from the beginning. There are many opinions telling it can not be done.

My conclusion is, it was done somehow in Windows 2000. Since the same applications are working in Windows 2000 and 98, it should be possible to increase the resource limit in 98 without recompilation of the user applications.

I would like to know how Windows 2000 does manage the GDI resources. And where is the difference from the Windows 98 point of view.

[RetroOS]

Sfor, on Mar 21 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

...
My conclusion is, it was done somehow in Windows 2000. Since the same applications are working in Windows 2000 and 98, it should be possible to increase the resource limit in 98 without recompilation of the user applications.
...

That is exactly what has been bugging me for years!
Windows 2000 onwards will run many of the apps that run on 9x.
However, they don't have the same kind of resources issues.
So... It is technically possible...
Whether it could be done is quite another problem.
I expect it would require extensive modifications to the Windows kernel...

This post has been edited by RetroOS: 21 March 2009 - 06:53 AM

[dencorso]

Quick reference index of information about RP9 by Tihiy himself:
USER Salvation
GDI Salvation
additional functionality

[noguru]

RetroOS, on Mar 21 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

That is exactly what has been bugging me for years!
Windows 2000 onwards will run many of the apps that run on 9x.
However, they don't have the same kind of resources issues.
So... It is technically possible...

Wrong analogy. There are also plenty apps that run on w2k and onwards but will never run on win9x by design. Kernel modifications like KernelEx don't change this.

[Sfor]

noguru, on Mar 22 2009, 10:41 AM, said:

RetroOS, on Mar 21 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

That is exactly what has been bugging me for years!
Windows 2000 onwards will run many of the apps that run on 9x.
However, they don't have the same kind of resources issues.
So... It is technically possible...

Wrong analogy. There are also plenty apps that run on w2k and onwards but will never run on win9x by design. Kernel modifications like KernelEx don't change this.

The analogy was a correct one, I believe.

All applications suffering from the GDI resource limits on Windows 98 are working on Windows 2000 with no apparent GDI shortages. The applications designed for just Windows 2000 are not a problem, since they do not work in Windows 98.

The thread adresses Windows 98 and compatible applications related problems. Applications not compatible with Windows 98 are out of the scope, in my opinion.

[noguru]

Sfor, on Mar 22 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

All applications suffering from the GDI resource limits on Windows 98 are working on Windows 2000 with no apparent GDI shortages. The applications designed for just Windows 2000 are not a problem, since they do not work in Windows 98.

The thread adresses Windows 98 and compatible applications related problems. Applications not compatible with Windows 98 are out of the scope, in my opinion.

This thread is not about any apps but about 16bit resources limitation (64Kb) in Win9x. A limitation that doesn't exist in Win2k. That's why you can't compare them even when running the same software.

[dencorso]

noguru, on Mar 22 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

A limitation that doesn't exist in Win2k. That's why you can't compare them even when running the same software.

Sorry, but it in fact does exist. The NT family OSes instance an USER heap and a GDI heap on a per application basis.
If they did not, they wouldn't be able to run Win 9x/ME applications. So, provided you find a really badly resources leaking application, you'll be able to see it crash, even on Win XP. You'll probably have to write such an app on purpose, however, because AFAIK there is no known app able to do it. But possible it sure is.

This post has been edited by dencorso: 22 March 2009 - 11:36 AM

[RetroOS]

dencorso, on Mar 23 2009, 06:35 AM, said:

...The NT family OSes instance an USER heap and a GDI heap on a per application basis...

So there it is in a nutshell!
To paint a picture:
If the shell in Windows 9x was replaced by a single application and then Windows started, it would be like running an app on a NT OS...
All the resource heaps exclusively available to that app.

There is a significant architectural difference between shared heaps and per app heaps...

[M()zart]

Queue, on Mar 20 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

And dencorso... your system tray is an abomination. ^_^ Mine has two icons, and that's two too-many. The speaker icon (which I leave just so I always have one thing, because truthfully an empty system tray is weird) and ZoneAlarm. The only other thing I have run at startup is TweakUI.

Well, on WinXP I have more than 30 icons in tray In worst times when I was choosing dictionary and sheduler and was trying several alternatives it was more than 40 icons . Few weeks ago I garbaged my desktop so, there was no place for new icons (32x32 icons, 1280x1024 desktop) And it wasn't on purpose.

[MDGx]

dencorso, on Mar 20 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

Of course, I've got many real programs in start-up that do IMHO useful things, like Pop Up Killer 1.45.5, HDDHealth 2.1 and Disk Space Monitor 1.0b4 ... At any moment, from start-up onwards, I have at least 16 icons in the system tray. I've trimmed my start-up configuration to the limit. I can't do without any of the programs in the tray. I need the things they do.

If I may suggest TrayIcon for even further "trimming" of your tray icon numbers, consumes very little resources...
It is only a list of shortcuts that loads in the Tray. From there you can start any program/Windows function/screen saver you wish.

Cannnot find it on the net anymore, so here it is...

* TrayIcon v2.5 32-bit for Windows 9x/NT4/2000/ME/XP/2003 creates, modifies, removes + reorders Tray Icons (single-click system Tray shortcuts) for any Windows/DOS program, app, game, screen saver, Windows function etc, changes icons to any valid icon file/library/executable/bitmap, highly customizable:
http://www.mdgx.com/files/TRAYICON.TXT
Direct download [124 KB, uncrippled, no nag shareware]:
http://www.mdgx.com/files/TI25.ZIP

Enjoy.