[Tripredacus]

@Jaclaz, no so much NDA related but more that I do not want to damage our relationship. All of the information I have were from using their software, attempting to image it, and attempting to duplicate the MBR so that we could image with Imagex. No information was provided to me from SoftThinks, other than what our sales rep knows about it, since there is a "glass ceiling" of sorts when it comes to their support department. And that ceiling goes higher if you purchase more products. Unfortunately, we don't move nearly as many units with this software as HP and Dell, so they get preferential treatment over us "little" guys.

jaclaz, on Mar 31 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

DigeratiPrime, on Mar 31 2009, 05:55 PM, said:

Still this is besides the point, as the MBR is a special area on the disk and not all backup software include it; for example file based images like WIM.

Yep , but from the given links it seems like a "sp" can be downloaded from HP that contains the "mbrinst.exe" that should be able to re-create the "special" MBR.

jaclaz

There's some heavy duty knowledge required for that tool. Its little documentation states that you can backup, restore and import new MBR codes onto a drive, but it doesn't work that way. For example, using the tool by itself (it has a GUI if run from a PE) or the CLI and any of the documented switches, it CANNOT read the full MBR that contains the recovery information. As you can see in one of the other threads linked above, it always comes back with not being able to find the recovery partition. I had left myself at the idea that there must be other switches, or the one you download is a slimmed down version meant for the end-user. I was able to recreate a recovery partition with Win PE 2.0 in this thread:

http://www.msfn.org/...howtopic=130645

Using the MBR.EXE program to install a custom MBR, but it does not support everything that the SoftThinks software does. As noted before, in addition to the F11 (or F10) option, there are other things it puts in there. One is the key used to install the license, so since I couldn't recreate that, I couldn't use any of the MBR programs I found. Interestingly enough, MBRINST seemed to do the job, but there was no documentation on how to use the blasted thing!

submix8c, on Apr 1 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

ahmad2080, on Apr 1 2009, 09:54 AM, said:

So I can't fix the Softthinks software ( or what ever it its) to make the recovery disks. And I can't (won't) mess with MBR to restore F11 function.

What if I restored my system as DigeratiPrimesuggested, Will everything return to normal? will I be able to create the recoverydisks & restore the f11 function at booting?

I have another question: What if I made the recovery partition the Active partition?
would that fix anything?

1 - Apparently
2 - Should be able to create Recovery Disks; don't know about F11 function.
3 - If Active, theoretically should work same as #2; also don't know about the F11

Simply "blowing away" the non-Recovery (via diskpart. or any other method) and setting the Recovery (the only partition left) to Active should get you booted into Recovery, which should set your Installation (after Restore) to Factory (just like when purchased). This definitely works and have used it before (as long as Recovery Partition is intact and its 512-byte Boot Record is unaltered - SPECIAL BOOT).

The F11 "trick" is just a way to get into "special boot code" (like many Boot Managers) to get you booted into the Recovery Partition (ignoring the Active Partition bit in Partition Type byte).

HTH (Did this on HP/Compaq XP Home SP1; corrections, folks?)

You may find it interesting that the Recovery Partition is also capable of creating the recovery media. By this I mean, boot into the recovery partition (if you can that is) and the software is fully able to create recovery media! The only problem is if you don't have a License Key (its a physical device you connect via USB) or the CD Builder, you won't be able to use it because you see the end-user GUI. And in HP's case, as I noted before, they get to have a super custom version, so there is no way to tell what other goodies they are hiding in there!

Also, I want to reiterate that Diskpart does not see the Recovery partition like it sees the system partition. Some of the settings for the volume are determined by the MBR, not by the information that Diskpart can see. For example, the fact that the volume is hidden is in the MBR, but Diskpart won't say it is hidden. If you try to hide it (and/or unhide it again) with diskpart, you get a situation where either the computer won't boot into Windows (STOP error and also have seen it not be able to find any partitions) or you can't boot into the recovery partition anymore. This is also true of the volume getting a drive letter. So I wouldn't use diskpart on the recovery partition unless you have the ability to test it out before doing it on your life system. This would mean ghosting it and sticking it in a VM or something?

And lastly, also remember that if you do a full recovery, you'll lose all of your data. It may fix all of your issues but just make sure you're cool with that.

[ahmad2080]

Tripredacus, on Apr 1 2009, 12:17 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, MBRINST seemed to do the job, but there was no documentation on how to use the blasted thing!

Well, I was able to log in the recovery partition and execute the MBRINST.exe file. It opened a window that had some options in it. I'm not sure what to do exactly(I don't want to mess things up)

I've attached a picture that shows the options in that window.
There are interesting options there. I was going to choose "Show and mount recovery partition" & in partition table field --> " Recovery part. first" and one of the HP F11 choices, but I preferred to ask the experts first….
The question now is: Can that tool fix the problem?

 DSCF2983.JPG (166.25K)
Number of downloads: 59

Tripredacus, on Apr 1 2009, 12:17 PM, said:

You may find it interesting that the Recovery Partition is also capable of creating the recovery media. By this I mean, boot into the recovery partition (if you can that is) and the software is fully able to create recovery media!

Great news, thanks.

Tripredacus, on Apr 1 2009, 12:17 PM, said:

And lastly, also remember that if you do a full recovery, you'll lose all of your data. It may fix all of your issues but just make sure you're cool with that.

If MBRINST.exe didn't fix the problem.......I'll be pretty cool with the full recovery option.

[Tripredacus]

Yes, as you can see there, your default option is to install an MBR. There is an MBR.INI file that is used for that. Using CLI, MBRINST can export an existing MBR that can be used to reimport. But it does not get all of the information. As you can see in the screen, it was programmed for SoftThinks. But while the CLI switches do work, I think they aren't supposed to be used by the end-user. There should be at least two (2) MBR.INI files in the recovery partition already, but these do not work if you import those. They are created when the partition is initially created (I have confirmed this) but they again seem to be incomplete. Its like there is a step missing. MBRINST and the MBR.INI files are definately a part of it, but there must be some other thing that is done also.

Let me explain my testing process.

1. Install Windows on a HDD.
2. Install the SoftThinks program. Activate it and create the recovery partition.

note that Ghost can redeploy a hard drive with the recovery partition, because it does a volume copy and preserves the MBR, but you need a license to activate it after it is redeployed.

3. Ghost the drive, and redeploy onto another computer. Actually the same computer, but there is no real difference to Ghost since it replaces the Volume entirely.
4. Capture the MBR file.
5. Format the drive, repeat steps 1 and 2.
6. Image both partitions with Imagex. (I had previously determined how to correctly script diskpart to do this)
7. Use MBRINST to install the MBR from the original.

Now It does install the MBR, or it would say it couldn't find the recovery partition. Even if it is there, set up as x12, etc. So I think something must be done first before installing the MBR. And also, this process the function key (in my case it is F10) does not work. Neither does the R key. The data is present, but it will only boot into Windows. Disk Management sees the other partition as FAT32, no drive letter, and EISA volume. For my usage, this is normal. I understand that on some other computers like HP, you do not even see the partition at all.

So in the end, there seems to be a missing step. It is what stops me from dumping Ghost altogether.

[ahmad2080]

I really appreciate your concern Tripredacus. Actually, your last post was a shock. I thought that I just solved the problem by finding the mbrinst.exe file.

Should I give it a shot and try mbrinst ( It may work with me.. )? does it have sideeffects?? What options should I choose on the mbrinst screen?
I didn't think that it's complicated like it seems to be. Anyway, there are some other .exe & .cmd executable files in the recovery partition that might be useful. My digital camera (the only way to take screenshots from another comp. )is not with me now.....so I'll attach screenshots of these files later, but let ask in advance if they would make any difference.

[jaclaz]

I have found this italian site:
http://guide.pctrio.com/index.php/xp-vista...ot-con-filmati/
Where

Italian said:

QUESTO VALE SOLO PER CHI HA UN COMPUTER HP, DOVE E’ ANCORA PRESENTE LA PARTIZIONE “HP RECOVERY”.

Chi ha cancellato questa partizione o ha un computer diverso da HP deve saltare questo punto.

Se in fase di accensione del PC non appare più la scritta “F11 per ripristino”, fate così per riavere sia la scritta sia la funzionalità di “Hp Recovery”
cliccare START, nella finestra “Inizia Ricerca” scriver CMD e premere Return. così si apre una finestra Command prompt
digitare il seguente comando
C:\windows\SMINST\mbrinst.exe /ini C:\windows\SMINST\mbr.ini /r /q
il pc riparte automaticamente dalla “HP Recovery partition”.
Quando appare la finestra “Benvenuto in Hp PC recovery”, cliccate su “annulla” per uscire.
il PC si riavvia. a questo punto potete notare che appare la scritta “F11 per ripristino” per 5 secondi, prima di scegliere tra Vista e XP.

Basically, in the HP version, some settings are inside the mbr.ini and the command must be invoked with the /ini and with the /r /q command line parameters.

"Full" translation:

English translation said:

THIS IS ONLY VALID FOR PEOPLE WITH A HP COMPUTER,WHERE THE PARTITION “HP RECOVERY” IS STILL PRESENT.

Whoever has deleted this partition or has a non-HP computer must skip this passage.

If when booting the "Press F11 for recovery" doesn't show anymore, do the following to re-enable the feature and the functioning of the "HP Recovery" partition:
Se in fase di accensione del PC non appare più la scritta “F11 per ripristino”, fate così per riavere sia la scritta sia la funzionalità di “Hp Recovery”
click on Start, Run, input CMD and press enter, to open a Command Prompt window
type in the following command:
C:\windows\SMINST\mbrinst.exe /ini C:\windows\SMINST\mbr.ini /r /q
the PC will reboot from the “HP Recovery partition”.
When the window "Welcome to HP PC Recovery" is displayed, click on Cancel to exit.
PC will reboot, and this time the "Press F11 for recovery" should appear for 5 seconds, before booting to thew chooice between Vistra and XP

These probably produce different results than the "quickplay" thingie mentioned before:
http://www.notebookf...727416-848.html

Also the screenshot here:
http://regardingit.blogspot.com/
is different from the one posted by ahmad2080, so there must be several versions of the MBRINST.EXE, of which at least one is the "HP customized version".

The instructions on the Italian site are consistent with these:
http://www.thestuden...ad.php?t=653972
though it seems like the used MBRINST.EXE is the one in the Recovery Partition.

@ahmad2080
I hope the above helps , but do remember that your mileage may vary...

jaclaz

[Tripredacus]

Yes Jaclaz. The MBRINST I had downloaded from HP looks like the one in that blog. Remember that (in my other topics) my SoftThinks software does not come with the MBRINST.exe. The function that it provides is coded into their software via a DLL which exists in the partition.

Bottom line, you can try running MBRINST, but only if you can find the MBR.INI in the recovery partition. Use that as your INI source in the command. But be warned, if something is missing, or the file is incorrect (there are more than one in the partition) you may make it so your partition is not bootable.

Also note that this tool (from the quote) is being run from Windows, and probably not from the recovery partition itself.

[ahmad2080]

jaclaz, on Apr 2 2009, 12:03 PM, said:

English translation said:

THIS IS ONLY VALID FOR PEOPLE WITH A HP COMPUTER,WHERE THE click on Start, Run, input CMD and press enter, to open a Command Prompt window
type in the following command:
C:\windows\SMINST\mbrinst.exe /ini C:\windows\SMINST\mbr.ini /r /q
the PC will reboot from the "HP Recovery partition".
When the window "Welcome to HP PC Recovery" is displayed, click on Cancel to exit.
PC will reboot, and this time the "Press F11 for recovery" should appear for 5 seconds, before booting to thew chooice between Vistra and XP

The instructions on the Italian site are consistent with these:
http://www.thestuden...ad.php?t=653972
though it seems like the used MBRINST.EXE is the one in the Recovery Partition.

I beleive that there are some differences here. The path of mbrinst.exe is completely different so the command given didn't work. Even if I know the correct path, I don't think that it will be accessable.
But if the purpose of that command is to restore mbr from mbr.ini, I can do that from mbrinst.exe right?

[b]Tripredacus[/b], on Apr 2 2009, 1:25 PM, said:

But be warned, if something is missing, or the file is incorrect (there are more than one in the partition) you may make it so your partition is not bootable.

I'll try some options in the mbrinst window and report the results.

[ahmad2080]

I tried the mbrinst as i said...it made no difference. It just kept saying : !warning the recovery partition could not be located.

I tried other .exe &.cmd files......no desired results were obtained..

The only choise left was the full recovery......and because of all this time-wasting I was frustrated...I recovered the system without backing up my files...[ It doesn't matter anymore]

After a while, an error message popped up saying that the MBR is too long like 30 bits while should be 16 or something like that.

Anyway the recovery procedure continiued. What happened next still didn't happen yet. I'm still waiting for the process to complete, so I thought to invest the time and give some feedback on the situation.


EDIT: I'm Screwed.......The recovery process completed and I ofcourse lost all my files. That would have been an acceptable sacrifice if I was able to create the recovery disks, but the problem is still there. Somehow, the partition can perform a complete recovery but lost the link with the softthinks software.

Now I'm done with all my available options. Anybody has a solution to recover the link between softthinks and recovery partition?.....There is only one option left that I'll choose soon : GIVE UP.

This post has been edited by ahmad2080: 02 April 2009 - 04:42 PM

[jaclaz]

ahmad2080, on Apr 2 2009, 11:53 PM, said:

Now I'm done with all my available options. Anybody has a solution to recover the link between softthinks and recovery partition?.....There is only one option left that I'll choose soon : GIVE UP.

Wait a minute, before giving up. (usually IT IS NOT AN OPTION! , but I do understand your frustration )

Can you access the Recovery partition (say it's D:\) and open a command prompt and run in it:

DIR /S D:\ >C:\Recdir.txt

(change D: driveletter accordingly to your setup.

And attach the resulting Recdir.txt file?

I am curious to see what files are in it.

jaclaz

[ahmad2080]

jaclaz, on Apr 3 2009, 04:41 AM, said:

Can you access the Recovery partition (say it's D:\) and open a command prompt and run in it:

DIR /S D:\ >C:\Recdir.txt

(change D: driveletter accordingly to your setup.

And attach the resulting Recdir.txt file?

I am curious to see what files are in it.

jaclaz

The recovery partition is D: too in my case. When i typed that command the result was dissapointing [ACESS DENIED].
I don't know why.
I guess that you are right, It's not an option.

EDIT: I've lost my mind......totally.
I forget to run cmd as administrator. Any way I attached the results.
 me.txt (7.14K)
Number of downloads: 22

Attached File(s)

•  disw1.jpg (60.65K)
  Number of downloads: 35
•  dirsw2.jpg (77.4K)
  Number of downloads: 22

This post has been edited by ahmad2080: 03 April 2009 - 07:00 AM

[jaclaz]

It is possible that from that command prompt you cannot access the ROOT of you C:\ drive?

Try changing to the D:\ recovery partition and issuing:

DIR /S >C:\Recdir.txt

or try placing the output file on some other place, a USB stick would be allright, but I need to see a complete list with directory structure and filesizes to (maybe ) understand how the thingy is made together:

DIR /S >X:\Recdir.txt

jaclaz

[ahmad2080]

jaclaz, on Apr 3 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

It is possible that from that command prompt you cannot access the ROOT of you C:\ drive?

Try changing to the D:\ recovery partition and issuing:

DIR /S >C:\Recdir.txt

or try placing the output file on some other place, a USB stick would be allright, but I need to see a complete list with directory structure and filesizes to (maybe ) understand how the thingy is made together:

DIR /S >X:\Recdir.txt

jaclaz

jaclaz:
You must have replied while I was editing the post.Check it up again plz.

[Tripredacus]

Yeah, I hate that "Recovery Partition not found" message.

NOTE: I claim no responsibility as to the consequences if you use the following information. I have no tested these tools on a Soft Thinks partition, only on a Windows PE partition. If you attempt the following, make sure you research how to install a standard MBR in case it becomes damaged with these tools.

There may be yet another option, and that would be to use the steps I had done in my Recovery Partition project. It requires the use of MBR.EXE, which isn't the same as MBRInst.exe. It is available on Terrabyte Unlimited's website. This is what needs to be done.

The MBR.exe needs to be put in the root of the recovery partition. You also need it in the root of the C drive. You run this command first from the MBR.exe on C. You can run it from Windows.

mbe.exe 0 1 /H

This sets the recovery partition to be hidden (as it should be)

mbr.exe 0 /install selm 10 11 "Press F11 for recovery" 0xC 0x1C

the 11 and F11 in the above line can be another number. They must equal each other.

You can now restart the computer. Press F11 and it should try to boot into the recovery partition. If it fails, you will get a standard error message like operating system not found, etc. If this happens then this method will not work for you. If you cannot boot into Windows after a fail, you need to run the command below somehow, via NTFSDOS or a PE CD.

If you are able to boot into the recovery partition, you must run another command before you can boot into Windows again. And that is:

mbr.exe 0 /reset

The reason is when you press F11, the recovery partition becomes Active and the C drive (may) become hidden.

[ahmad2080]

Tripredacus:
Let me first ask a question before trying that on the softhinks partition:
Is the problem that I have completly related to the MBR?
Is the MBR the primary reason why Softhinks can't see the partition?

I got in contact with HP online chat & with HP E-mail service but both didn't help.
they just keep saying that I have to buy the disks if I need them. I tried to make them tell me how to solve the problem technically but the only result was getting me on my nerves.

When I was chatting with their technican explaining the whole problem, I realized that I forgot to say (here in MSFN) that I once (before Partition magic and HP tool) executed the Recovery Disk creation and it showed how many DVD's I needed. At that time I didn't have the required empty DVD's so I simply exited the program.

The HP technican told me that the program was designed to be executed and burn DVD's only one time.
I don't beleive the 'one time execution' part, but let's assume that this is right. Then the problem of creating disks has nothing to do with PM & HP tool (Maybe they only affected the F11 function at start up)
If that is correct then MBR programs won't solve the problem. Right?

So if anyone tried to execute the Recovery disk creation twice and succeeded to reach the page where it tells how many DVD's are required, it'll make me sure that the problem cause is the MBR. Then I'll proceed Tripredacus's idea.

[submix8c]

ahmad2080, on Apr 3 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

The HP technican told me that the program was designed to be executed and burn DVD's only one time.
I don't beleive the 'one time execution' part, but let's assume that this is right. Then the problem of creating disks has nothing to do with PM & HP tool (Maybe they only affected the F11 function at start up)
If that is correct then MBR programs won't solve the problem. Right?

So if anyone tried to execute the Recovery disk creation twice and succeeded to reach the page where it tells how many DVD's are required, it'll make me sure that the problem cause is the MBR. Then I'll proceed Tripredacus's idea.

I am thinking it's probably the MBR. What bit you initially was using PM and allowing it to fiddle with the MBR.

And I believe the HP Technician is wrong! Once you Restore from the Recovery Partition, you are back to Factory Install (just like when you bought it). I did this already on that HP/Compaq I told you about. Resets everything on the recovered OS partition! Therefore, the option to create disks reappears. The sole purpose of creating the Disks is in case your whole HDD is wiped (or something) and you need to Restore (from somewhere). I did that several times as a test scenario (after Ghosting). And I can't honestly remember if the option to recreate the Recovery Partition existed after using the Disk Set (sorry...).

Your main problem seems to be (right now) getting booted into the Recovery Partition.

edit - and FWIW, if you used PM, then maybe you have PTEDIT (Partition Table Editor), although I don't know if it would help or not...
basic info on PTEDIT (now owned by Symantec) -
http://service1.symantec.com/Support/power...004063693751462
another tidbit (and ptedit download) -
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/power...src=bar_sch_nam
WARNING! The above info in last link could (probably would) destroy the special HP code (I believe to exist there).
fyi (more or less accurate) - http://www.datarecov...ition_types.htm

This post has been edited by submix8c: 03 April 2009 - 10:24 AM

[jaclaz]

@ahmad2080

Yes, we were cross-posting.

I'll have a look at the list.

Can you also check your "normal" partition for the presence of files MBRINST.EXE and MBRINST.INI, and if you find them detail where they are?

@submix8
The second link IS dangerous , expecially beacuse it will make you edit the BOOT RECORD of the partition (read bootsector), that has nothing to do with the MBR.

PTEDIT is the DOS version.

PTEDIT32 is the Windows version.

There is a Freeware, beeblebrox, with most of the capabilities of PTEDIT32:
http://students.cs.byu.edu/~codyb/
(but that will leave bootsectors alone)

jaclaz

[ahmad2080]

submix8c, on Apr 3 2009, 09:42 AM, said:

And I believe the HP Technician is wrong! Once you Restore from the Recovery Partition, you are back to Factory Install (just like when you bought it). I did this already on that HP/Compaq I told you about. Resets everything on the recovered OS partition! Therefore, the option to create disks reappears.

Maybe the file that says that the recovey disk creation has been execyted lies in the Recovery partition, so it'll be untouched even with a full recovery.

submix8c, on Apr 3 2009, 09:42 AM, said:

Your main problem seems to be (right now) getting booted into the Recovery Partition.

No, I can set my recovery partition as Active and when I restart I can begin the recovery process.My problem is to make the recovery disk creation software on Vista to see the recovery partition so I can make the recovery disks.

submix8c, on Apr 3 2009, 09:42 AM, said:

edit - and FWIW, if you used PM, then maybe you have PTEDIT (Partition Table Editor), although I don't know if it would help or not...
basic info on PTEDIT (now owned by Symantec) -
http://service1.symantec.com/Support/power...004063693751462
another tidbit (and ptedit download) -
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/power...src=bar_sch_nam
WARNING! The above info in last link could (probably would) destroy the special HP code (I believe to exist there).
fyi (more or less accurate) - http://www.datarecov...ition_types.htm

Thanks for the links but I can't trust symantec any more. It caused all of this trouble.

[jaclaz]

ahmad2080, on Apr 3 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

Thanks for the links but I can't trust symantec any more. It caused all of this trouble.

To be fair , it was you that caused the trouble by using improperly a tool, no offence intended to you, rest assured, but the guys at Symantec are already busy enough attempting to add some more bloat in the Norton "line" of antivirii that they cannot actually produce some accurate documentation about Powerquest Norton Partition Magic, explaining to the less experienced user that it is a dangerous app if used improperly. :whistling:

jaclaz

[ahmad2080]

jaclaz, on Apr 3 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

Can you also check your "normal" partition for the presence of files MBRINST.EXE and MBRINST.INI, and if you find them detail where they are?

No, they don't exist in the Normal partition(c:\).

When I said that I was able to log into the recovery partition I was wrong.
When I set the recovery partition as Active (or using F8) I do log into the recovery manager, but when I opened a cmd there I found that I was standing on [X:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32]

Beside the X:\ partition (which is called the boot partition) there are C: & D: (My original partitions)

so the MBRinst.exe file that I showed you was from the boot partition not the recovery partition.
I don't know from where did the boot partition come from and what is its relation to the recovery partition, but I can list all of its contents [alot of .exe &.cmd files].

[ahmad2080]

jaclaz, on Apr 3 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

ahmad2080, on Apr 3 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

Thanks for the links but I can't trust symantec any more. It caused all of this trouble.

To be fair , it was you that caused the trouble by using improperly a tool, no offence intended to you, rest assured, but the guys at Symantec are already busy enough attempting to add some more bloat in the Norton "line" of antivirii that they cannot actually produce some accurate documentation about Powerquest Norton Partition Magic, explaining to the less experienced user that it is a dangerous app if used improperly. :whistling:

jaclaz

mmm, yeah that's fair. So you suggest to use the tool given by submix8c ?

EDIT: The tool that you gave me jaclaz : http://students.cs.byu.edu/~codyb/
is not comaptable with vista.

This post has been edited by ahmad2080: 03 April 2009 - 11:23 AM