[Bishop]

Hello all,

I really hope you guys can help me out as I've kind of hit a dead end.

System:
Acer Aspire One A150-Bk
Intel Atom 1.6, 1gb, 160gb harddrive, Windows XP Home.

The system is set in such a way that it will check for bootable CD/DVD-roms before using the harddrive's main partition.

Problem:
I have created a nLite image and burned onto a CD, then using an external USB optical drive I am trying to boot the XP install CD.
It gives the 'Press a key to boot from CD...' and when I press a key, it gives a black screen and does not continue.

What I have tried already:

• I have checked if the CD inserted is correctly built, it does boot the windows installation files on another PC, just not on my AOA150.
  
• In this forum was a topic that said that you must NOT select: Manual Install and Upgrade when you are using nLite. Now I am not sure if this only counts when trying to boot the install via an USB thumbdrive. This resulted in just a black screen and not even the message saying: 'Press a key to boot from CD...'.
  
• I inserted my vLite'd Vista Ultimate CD and that installed just fine, and all was well. So that works.
  
• I inserted a Windows XP Home Edition CD with just SP3 slipstreamed (not built by me) and that failed aswell. Because I suspect it's not one with an integrated SP3 in the way Microsoft would do it. Here's what I did with it. I had some succes as I managed to get into the XP installer.
  
• I have tried installing Windows XP using a USB thumbdrive. I've used 2 guides, guide 1 & guide 2 both using WinSetupFromUSB
  
• I have tried to let the windows setup preload the sata drivers using the method described here. This was very close to the solution but I had made a small mistake. Look below for the solution.
  
• I have tried a different version of the Aspire One bios, 3308 instead of the latest 3309. Without luck, I am now using 3309 again.

Now I'm not an expert on this however I have succesfully created a vlite'd Vista Ultimate for my PC before and have used nLite quite frequently lately. I am just not able to get the boot going on my Aspire One.



THE SOLUTION:
And as with a lot of things, the solution was a pretty simple one.
It seemed that indeed the SATA drivers where missing and making the installer unable to start.
John came with an idea here. With that idea and coupled with this guide and the drivers John had found I did another attempt.
I integrated the drivers with nlite, in 'text mode', burned another DVD-RW.
Result, the DVD booted into the installer without any problems.

Note: The drivers John has found where drivers from Acer, strangely enough these could not be found under the driverssection of the AOA150, but under the AOD150 driverssection. While apparently the AOA150 also has the same SATA HDD.

I have attached the drivers in this post.

John, Jaclaz, and others, I can't thank you enough for the effort, time and willingless to think with me on this problem. You have been a tremendous help to me in the past few days. Thank you very much.



*edit: Small edit to what I have tried already.
**edit: Update to what I've tried; USB method, inserting SATA drivers.
***edit: Update to what I've tried; Suspected original slipstreamed Windows XP Home Edition booted into the installer.
****edit: Added the solution.

Attached File(s)

•  f6flpy32.7z (157.53K)
  Number of downloads: 23

This post has been edited by Bishop: 06 May 2009 - 03:04 PM

[jaclaz]

It is curious to see all the efforts by wimb and ilko_t being dismissed by comments like "it is complex".

Try reading these:
http://ccollomb.free.fr/blog/?p=59
http://myeeeguides.wordpress.com/2008/11/1...sb-flash-drive/

It doesn't seem like "complex".

The methods were developed using HD-like devices.

Using CD-like devices is completely different.

You may find something useful here:
http://www.msfn.org/...howtopic=121502

Since mg.eggink explicitly stated that for the CD-like device "Manual Install and Upgrade for removal" can be removed, the problem should be in something else.

From what you write it could be a problem with the no-emulation bootsector of the CD, or with the options with which you burned it somehow not being compatible with the Aspire BIOS.

jaclaz

[johnhc]

Bishop, several people have had problems with booting an install CD from a SATA optical drive. Perhaps yours is similar. I don't think it is an nLite problem, but jaclaz may have given a real clue here.

jaclaz, please elaborate on "no-emulation bootsector of the CD". Do you think it is possible to burn an ISO to a CD with a different boot sector and get past these problems. If so, where do people find these appropriate boot sectors? Should the optical drive manufacturers offer them? Thanks for any help here. Enjoy, John.

[jaclaz]

johnhc, on May 2 2009, 04:01 PM, said:

jaclaz, please elaborate on "no-emulation bootsector of the CD". Do you think it is possible to burn an ISO to a CD with a different boot sector and get past these problems. If so, where do people find these appropriate boot sectors? Should the optical drive manufacturers offer them? Thanks for any help here. Enjoy, John.

As known, there are three kinds of emulation:
http://www.boot-land...topic=4733&st=3

They are listed in the order of actual "most wide compatibility".

The El-Torito floppy emulation one should boot on anything.

The no-emulation one gave initially problems on some BIOS/CD's (I am speaking of years ago, when they were largely introduced by Windows 2000 CD's).
It is possible that the same problem is happening today with the USB CD-Rom Bishop is using.

The hard-disk emulation can be a problem, as an example it won't work properly on Qemu, see here:
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?...=3890&st=46

So, something to try, besides using the tested, working, and "simple" as I see it USB stick approach, would be to make an El_torito floppy emulation CD with an image booting grub4dos and from it chainload the SETUPLDR.BIN on the CD.

As well, using grldr directly as no-emulation boot cd may work, or at least it would help in finding out whether the problem is:

• in the emulation mode, or
  
• in the specific MS no-emulation bootsector, or
  
• in somethng else

I don't think that the problem with SATA CD's/DVD's is connected to the above, however.

jaclaz

[Bishop]

jaclaz, on May 2 2009, 01:31 PM, said:

It is curious to see all the efforts by wimb and ilko_t being dismissed by comments like "it is complex".

Try reading these:
http://ccollomb.free.fr/blog/?p=59
http://myeeeguides.wordpress.com/2008/11/1...sb-flash-drive/

It doesn't seem like "complex".

…

jaclaz

Thankyou for your quick reply.
In the first link there is a mention of ‘to much information’, te same has happened to me in my searches through the internet. I’ve seen many guides referencing to ‘ Install XP from USB…’ , never one mentioning WinSetupFromUSB.
These guides indeed seem not so complex. I will certainly try these out tomorrow. Thankyou.

jaclaz, on May 2 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

So, something to try, besides using the tested, working, and "simple" as I see it USB stick approach, would be to make an El_torito floppy emulation CD with an image booting grub4dos and from it chainload the SETUPLDR.BIN on the CD.

As I am ‘new’ to this scene I come across a lot of words, phrases and methods I am not familiar with yet. I 'm not sure I understand the last bit, the chainloading of ETUPLDR.BIN.

nLite has the ability to burn an image using a different ‘no-emulation bootsector’, so this seems quick and easy enough to try out aswell.


Thanks for the input an I will let you know if it worked. The next post is hopefully a ‘success!’ one.

[johnhc]

Bishop, I too don't know what "chainload the SETUPLDR.BIN on the CD" means. I do know what the .BIN file is and I wonder if you were to use the Vista version, if that would work. Just idle speculation. Enjoy, John.

jaclaz, I misread your earlier reply and got way up the wrong tree! I agree what you are talking about is not helpful for the SATA attached optical drive. All this has made me wonder, if one were to replace the XP SETUPLDR.BIN with the Vista version, could there be success with booting the XP ISO from the USB or SATA attached CD? What do you think - boom, maybe? Thanks for your reply. Enjoy, John.

[jaclaz]

johnhc, on May 2 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

Bishop, I too don't know what "chainload the SETUPLDR.BIN on the CD" means. I do know what the .BIN file is and I wonder if you were to use the Vista version, if that would work. Just idle speculation. Enjoy, John.

jaclaz, I misread your earlier reply and got way up the wrong tree! I agree what you are talking about is not helpful for the SATA attached optical drive. All this has made me wonder, if one were to replace the XP SETUPLDR.BIN with the Vista version, could there be success with booting the XP ISO from the USB or SATA attached CD? What do you think - boom, maybe? Thanks for your reply. Enjoy, John.

Hey peeps, it's not difficult, it's just probably outside your field of normal interest/experience.

A Microsoft install CD has a 2048 bytes no-emulation bootsector (sometimes referred to as "Arnes boot record", sometimes as "Microsoft Corporation.img", that loads two files from the I386 directory:

• BOOTFIX.BIN (it's the thingy that say "Press any key to boot from CD")
  
• SETUPLDR.BIN <- this is the NT loader for setup

grub4dos among other bootmanagers has the ability to load SETUPLDR.BIN just as it was loaded by the original MS bootsector.

Since what is actually loaded the first time is grub4dos, the term chainload is used. (and it's also in the form "chainloader" a grub4dos command).

Vista uses different files, etboot.com (the 2048 bytes no-emulation bootsector) and then the BOOTMGR/BCD.

Normal XP install CD boots as follows:
no-emulation bootsector->BOOTFIX.BIN->SETUPLDR.BIN->rest of files

A grub4dos floppy emulation CD can boot either:
grldr_on_floppy_image->menu.lst->whatever (including SETUPLDR.BIN)
dos_on_floppy_image->grub.exe->menu.lst->whatever (including SETUPLDR.BIN)
linux_on_floppy_image->grub.exe->menu.lst->whatever (including SETUPLDR.BIN)

A grub4dos no-emulation Cd can boot:
grldr_as_no-emulation-image->menu.lst->whatever (including SETUPLDR.BIN)

jaclaz

[Bishop]

John,

If I understand you correctly you are refering to the fact my vLite'd Vista Ultimate DVD was infact able to boot into the Windows install.

You are asking if by replacing the SETUPLDR.BIN from my nLite'd XP CD with the same file from my vLite'd Vista Ultimate DVD the CD will actually be able to boot into the Windows XP install?

If that would work, I would simply have to replace the SETUPLDR.BIN before I hit 'Burn Image' in nLite. Curious for the awnser to this.

[johnhc]

Bishop, I am doing some research now and am sad to report that the Vista boot process is entirely different from XP. I don't think Vista even has a SETUPLDR.BIN. As you can tell, I know almost nothing about Vista. See here, where I am reading right now. Looks "COMPLEX!" Perhaps it can lead to something useful and possibly get people thinking of how to solve this problem of booting from SATA and USB attached optical drives. Enjoy, John.

[jaclaz]

Bishop, on May 2 2009, 09:18 PM, said:

You are asking if by replacing the SETUPLDR.BIN from my nLite'd XP CD with the same file from my vLite'd Vista Ultimate DVD the CD will actually be able to boot into the Windows XP install?

If that would work, I would simply have to replace the SETUPLDR.BIN before I hit 'Burn Image' in nLite. Curious for the awnser to this.

johnhc, on May 2 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

Bishop, I am doing some research now and am sad to report that the Vista boot process is entirely different from XP. I don't think Vista even has a SETUPLDR.BIN.

jaclaz, on May 2 2009, 09:17 PM, said:

Vista uses different files, etboot.com (the 2048 bytes no-emulation bootsector) and then the BOOTMGR/BCD.

johnc, don't want to put you down, mind you , but if you think to use the Vista BOOTMGR as CD loader for a XP install, I think you are on a wild goose chase.

There are several, tested and known to be working CD loaders/bootmanager, including:

• syslinux/isolinux
  
• grub4dos
  
• CD shell
  
• BCDW

all of them freeware, some Open Source.

They all work, have been tested and tweaked for years, are more flexible, give more options.

Using the Vista one, besides creating possibly a problem with the OS License (you need both an XP and a Vista License) is sure COMPLEX, and I doubt would give ANY advantage over the standard bootsector.


jaclaz

[cdob]

Bishop, on May 2 2009, 01:18 PM, said:

You are asking if by replacing the SETUPLDR.BIN from my nLite'd XP CD with the same file from my vLite'd Vista Ultimate DVD the CD will actually be able to boot into the Windows XP install?

There are file names used at boot. Try to rename file:

Extract Vista boot sector, rename the file. replace the XP boot sector file
copy i386\setupldr.bin to \BOOTMGR

jaclaz said:

I doubt would give ANY advantage over the standard bootsector.

Actually I've no idea, because there is USB booting involved.
Testing would be nice.

[Bishop]

A general question; does it make difference that the to be booted CD is booted from an external USB connected DVD-Burner in comparison to an internal IDE drive?

As the Acer's Bos supports boots from a USB memorystick aswell as a USB optical drive.

My guess is that the awnser is yes, as the external optical drive is basically a readonly memorystick. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have both licences btw; Windows XP Home Edition and Windows Vista Ultimate.

[cdob]

Bishop, on May 3 2009, 03:14 AM, said:

does it make difference that the to be booted CD is booted from an external USB connected DVD-Burner in comparison to an internal IDE drive?

Yes, there is a difference. The BIOS has to use USB code at a USB device.

Quote

as the external optical drive is basically a readonly memorystick.

Do you use some kind of U3 sick? Did you integrate the ISO image?

This are two different items.
There is a difference between a real external optical drive and a fake external optical drive.
You may get different results.

In addition: can you boot from second partition at USB memorystick?

[jaclaz]

Bishop, on May 3 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

A general question; does it make difference that the to be booted CD is booted from an external USB connected DVD-Burner in comparison to an internal IDE drive?

As the Acer's Bos supports boots from a USB memorystick aswell as a USB optical drive.

My guess is that the awnser is yes, as the external optical drive is basically a readonly memorystick. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have both licences btw; Windows XP Home Edition and Windows Vista Ultimate.

Since you asked for it...

... you are wrong.

It does make a difference when a drive is booted from USB or from "internal IDE".

And, ...you are wrong , an external optical drive is NOT a readonly memory stick, a memory stick is normally a HD-like device, with a MBR and partition(s) - it starts booting from it's first sector (512 bytrs).
An external optical drive is a CD-like device, has a CDFS and starts booting from sector 17 (and sectors are 2048 bytes).
An external optical drive is a CD-like device and is equivalent to the CD part of a U3 memory stick (a stick that "shows" as two devices, a CD-like one and a HD-like one)

Basically:
IDE (read ATA/ATAPI) has been around for some 20 years.
From the beginning both HD-like devices and CD-ROM devices were developed on this bus.
Notwithstanding that, a number of BIOS was NOT coded to be able to boot from an internal IDE CD-Rom, and workarounds like BCDL, see this:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=18650
and some of the BIOS that could actually boot from a IDE CD-ROM only booted from floppy-emulation bootable CD's

When SATA was introduced, it was meant as (or at least was used as) a "parallel" (pardon me the pun with it's serial nature) BUS, to be added to "normal" IDE/ATA/ATAPI for "high speed" hard disks.
As thus, there are (should say were) motherboards that do have problems booting from a CD device on the SATA bus, simply because they somehow "expect" that anything connected to the SATA bus is a HD-like device.

Situation with BIOS implementation of "booting from USB bus" is even worse.

Every builder has made his own (crappy in my opinion) BIOS extension for booting from USB and we are in a complete mess, and we still haven't talked about USB "ZIP" booting.

Just check FAQ#10:
http://home.graffiti.net/jaclaz:graffiti.n...SB/USBfaqs.html

And this thread:
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=7739
to have an idea of what problems one can find with pesky BIOSes

Of all the USB devices that may (or may fail to) boot on a given "pesky" BIOS:

• Hard disk
  
• stick (HD-like formatted)
  
• stick (superfloppy formatted)
  
• stick (ZIP with MBR formatted)
  
• stick (U3 or however dual LUN with CD-like device)
  
• CD/DVD

The last two are the LEAST experimented with.

jaclaz

[Bishop]

cdob, on May 3 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

Do you use some kind of U3 sick? Did you integrate the ISO image?

No I have a Sandisk Cruzer Crossfire 4gb. I don't think it has a U3 ability.
As stated above, I had given up on the USB thumbdrive approach. As I am home now I will see if I can get it to work using the WinSetupFromUSB method.


Jaclaz, it seems I am wrong about a lot of things lately. Thankyou for the information, it's all very interesting to learn. Will take a look at the links you provided later.

This post has been edited by Bishop: 03 May 2009 - 05:03 AM

[Bishop]

jaclaz, on May 2 2009, 01:31 PM, said:

http://myeeeguides.wordpress.com/2008/11/1...sb-flash-drive/

You where right, it was not complex at all.

However,.. I doublechecked that I had NOT removed "Manual Install and Upgrade" under Operating System Options as I had built this image using nLite.
This resulted in seeing the menu where I was able to choose the first or second part of the XP install. When I had let the timer run out, or chose the first (text based) part, it resulted in the same black screen I experienced when booting from the CD. After the "Press any key to boot from CD..." I received a similar black screen doing nothing.

It just didn't kick into the Windows XP text bases setup part.


I am currently building an image while removing "Manual Install and Upgrade", but I doubt it makes a difference.

*edit: That did not work either...

I've kind of hit a dead end again.
I'm not quite sure what's causing this to happen. For some reason the Aspire seems to not be able to load into the setup part.
And I don't get why it does accept the way a Vista DVD boots...

This post has been edited by Bishop: 03 May 2009 - 07:00 AM

[johnhc]

Bishop, I know this is a long shot but take a look here. I have not spent much time, but I think this may have some potential. I plan on spending more time when I have some. Please let us know what you learn. Enjoy, John.

[Bishop]

Johnhc, funnily enough I had just downloaded that program.
I am looking through it.. but I am not sure as to what I need to set.

As Vista is currently running on my Aspire One I am able to change things from there. But it's a temporary solution as the license will run out.

I am going to read this part now, let's say I want Vista dualbooted with XP. (In the end, I'll just remove the Vista install and I will end up with a XP only boot.)

This post has been edited by Bishop: 03 May 2009 - 07:52 AM

[johnhc]

Bishop, great minds - huh? The one real concern is you want to boot from a CD not HDD. I'm hoping that can be made to work. Enjoy, John.

[Bishop]

Idea;
Might it possibly have something to do with the XP CD not being able to see my HDD? I might be able to preload my SATA drivers.

Although.. it does not explain the black screen after each Windows XP CD says: "Press any key to boot from CD..."