[gamehead200]

herbalist, on Aug 19 2009, 07:29 AM, said:

Quote

Those forums are no longer used for anything constructive and have simply been an battle field for never ending, repetitive flame wars.

Nothing constructive? KernelEX and the GDI heap Extender aren't constructive? The 9X forum and the projects found in it are the primary reason I joined this place and is the area I use the most. I hope this thread and the 9X forum remain open until I get home from work so I can archive the material that I want and post a proper response to this thread.

What I believe jcarle meant to say was while there are interesting and constructive discussions going on in the 9X forum, the amount of flaming, bashing, negativity and other rule-breaking (excluding spam) in that forum has certainly exceeded the amount of constructiveness going on, has gotten pretty out of hand recently and it has become a little overwhelming for us mods (dencorso included) to handle. While you may disagree with this, please keep in mind that the moderating team catches most of the rule-breaking minutes after it occurs, so most of the offending posts are never read by the active 9X members. Finally, members who don't frequent the 9X forum very often may think that nothing constructive goes on in there because the only real time they might actually go through the posts is when all of the rule-breaking occurs.

As for the closing of the forum, we have no plans to close it as of yet, but as cluberti mentioned, it is being discussed and considered. However, please note that if it is decided to close the 9X forum, it will most likely be put in read-only mode, meaning you will still be able to access and read the posts. Also note that we will not simply close it without warning (members will most likely be advised several weeks in advance to wrap things up) as this will only upset a lot of people and just cause more trouble (which we don't want, obviously).

[jaclaz]

Maybe a "stupid" idea :

Quote

hey, it's not my fault, the devil imai made me think of it

Why not putting a minimum post AND elapsed time since registration to the board limit to allow access to the Win9x Forums in "write mode"?

Something "reasonable" like 3 posts and 7 days since subscription ?

Old time members won't have problems, new members will have to wait one week, during which they will have time to post something in here:
http://www.msfn.org/...urself-f76.html

This should :
a. mitigate the intensity of work of the Mods
b. allow people REALLY interested in joining the discussions to do so, even if they are "new"
c. let "aficionados" continue as if nothing changed
d. disincentivate "kids" from gatecrashing the party (usually the time span before an idea simply pops out of the brain of children is a few minutes)

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 19 August 2009 - 06:55 AM

[Kelsenellenelvian]

I think that is a GRAND idea.

Maybe 10 posts though.

[awergh]

yeah agreed it sounds like a good solution to the problem, and agreed 10 posts is possibly a better number

[Sl@y3D for my n@me]

Personally, I believe it would be a great shame to archive the forums so that nobody would be able to continue to contribute to the old operating system. Those projects have given the 9x series a whole new lease of life. I am astounded at how much they have accomplished.

The minimum posts idea would benefit the 9x forums greatly, in my opinion. At least that service pack plus guy wouldn't go on a spamming trip every other day.

[ripken204]

jaclaz, on Aug 19 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

Maybe a "stupid" idea :

Quote

hey, it's not my fault, the devil imai made me think of it

Why not putting a minimum post AND elapsed time since registration to the board limit to allow access to the Win9x Forums in "write mode"?

Something "reasonable" like 3 posts and 7 days since subscription ?

Old time members won't have problems, new members will have to wait one week, during which they will have time to post something in here:
http://www.msfn.org/...urself-f76.html

This should :
a. mitigate the intensity of work of the Mods
b. allow people REALLY interested in joining the discussions to do so, even if they are "new"
c. let "aficionados" continue as if nothing changed
d. disincentivate "kids" from gatecrashing the party (usually the time span before an idea simply pops out of the brain of children is a few minutes)

jaclaz

if this is possible to implement then i am for it, assuming it fixes the issue at hand.

[imai]

Agree with Jaclaz, his proposal is less drastic than mine but may succeed in scaring off most spammers

(just one more post and I am in !)

[gamehead200]

jaclaz, on Aug 19 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

Maybe a "stupid" idea :

Quote

hey, it's not my fault, the devil imai made me think of it

Why not putting a minimum post AND elapsed time since registration to the board limit to allow access to the Win9x Forums in "write mode"?

Something "reasonable" like 3 posts and 7 days since subscription ?

Old time members won't have problems, new members will have to wait one week, during which they will have time to post something in here:
http://www.msfn.org/...urself-f76.html

This should :
a. mitigate the intensity of work of the Mods
b. allow people REALLY interested in joining the discussions to do so, even if they are "new"
c. let "aficionados" continue as if nothing changed
d. disincentivate "kids" from gatecrashing the party (usually the time span before an idea simply pops out of the brain of children is a few minutes)

jaclaz

We've been talking about implementig something like this. The only problem I see with it is new members posting nonsense (e.g., one-word posts) in order to meet that minimum post requirement (which isn't as uncommon as one might think).

[jaclaz]

gamehead200, on Aug 19 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

We've been talking about implementig something like this. The only problem I see with it is new members posting nonsense (e.g., one-word posts) in order to meet that minimum post requirement (which isn't as uncommon as one might think).

Well, the idea was to reduce work for Mods, not to make them able to go on holidays.

Don't we already have Rule #2.a and Rule #10?

Just make them stricter, if needed.

jaclaz

[Chozo4]

gamehead200, on Aug 19 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

We've been talking about implementig something like this. The only problem I see with it is new members posting nonsense (e.g., one-word posts) in order to meet that minimum post requirement (which isn't as uncommon as one might think).

Perhaps, if possile despite sounding silly..

... could it be possible to add in a rule whereas new members must contribute something of a certain degree? As in, the posts must be of a certain minimum length and/or word count? Although, I'm unsure if the forum software MSFN runs on supports such a feature. >.>

[jaclaz]

Chozo4, on Aug 19 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

As in, the posts must be of a certain minimum length and/or word count? Although, I'm unsure if the forum software MSFN runs on supports such a feature. >.>

Hmmm, and how long would you think it would take before we have posts like :

Quote

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Lorem_ipsum
http://www.lipsum.com/



jaclaz

[gamehead200]

jaclaz, on Aug 19 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

Well, the idea was to reduce work for Mods, not to make them able to go on holidays.

Don't we already have Rule #2.a and Rule #10?

Just make them stricter, if needed.

jaclaz

Yes, well, there are tons of new members that already break those two rules. Members already get warned for breaking those - a more strict consequence would most likely be a ban, which would result in more banned members than active ones (something we don't exactly want).

Chozo4, on Aug 19 2009, 01:03 PM, said:

Perhaps, if possile despite sounding silly..

... could it be possible to add in a rule whereas new members must contribute something of a certain degree? As in, the posts must be of a certain minimum length and/or word count? Although, I'm unsure if the forum software MSFN runs on supports such a feature. >.>

That's not exactly plausible or easy to do. Like jaclaz said, we'll eventually have people posting garbage text along with their one- or two-worded responses. We already have a bunch of spammers that do that, believe it or not. They post "Thanks" along with garbage text that matches the background color in order to hide it from us, which in turn gets search engines to index our pages and relate them back to keywords we don't want linked to MSFN.

I'm neither against, nor am I am for closing the Windows 9X forum - it will really be the site owner's (xper) decision in the end, so we, as a community, must come to a justifiable, easily implementable, and unanimous solution/decision that xper will agree to.

P.S.: I've pinned this topic.

[Tripredacus]

jaclaz, on Aug 19 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

Maybe a "stupid" idea :

Quote

hey, it's not my fault, the devil imai made me think of it

Why not putting a minimum post AND elapsed time since registration to the board limit to allow access to the Win9x Forums in "write mode"?

Something "reasonable" like 3 posts and 7 days since subscription ?

Old time members won't have problems, new members will have to wait one week, during which they will have time to post something in here:
http://www.msfn.org/...urself-f76.html

This should :
a. mitigate the intensity of work of the Mods
b. allow people REALLY interested in joining the discussions to do so, even if they are "new"
c. let "aficionados" continue as if nothing changed
d. disincentivate "kids" from gatecrashing the party (usually the time span before an idea simply pops out of the brain of children is a few minutes)

jaclaz

Kelsenellenelvian, on Aug 19 2009, 09:12 AM, said:

I think that is a GRAND idea.

Maybe 10 posts though.

It may sound like a good idea, but there are some problems.

What if you don't know anything about the other sections of the forum? For example, there are some forums I go to that are for programming languages. I go there and know PHP but not the other sections. If the PHP forum was disabled until I had made 10 posts elsewhere, but had no where else to post, do you think I would even bother?

[-X-]

10 posts is a bad idea IMO. What are they going to post?

Put their first or first few posts in moderation. Does Invision have inline moderation like vBulletin does? It makes moderating a breeze.

[herbalist]

Will the forum software accommodate any kind of spam filtering, preferably one where you could enter the words or phrases to be filtered? If the words show up in the title, the post is directed to the trash. I'd also be inclined to think that if the 9X forum was closed, another one would get spammed in its place.

A lot of the "flame war" posts start with people who feel the need to post things like "Why do you use that old, obsolete stuff? Get with the times." If I went to the Vista or Windows 7 area and posted something like

Quote

Why do you waste time with that bloated, overpriced spyware? Get rid of that junk and get a real OS, Ubuntu Linux.

I doubt that it would be tolerated. But when a post like that comes to the 9X forum, it's left there. We're regularly put in the position of having to defend our choices. Maybe adding something to the 9X announcement area regarding those types of posts might lessen the problem.

Hopefully this can all be worked out so that the 9X area stays open. I've been wanting to look into the KernelEX project and the GDI heap extender, if I can ever find the time. Those projects can keep 98 viable for a long time.

[ripken204]

i have no idea what type of flames there are in there but i found it funny for ppl to go to the 9X forum only to flame like that, these people much have some serious issues to waste their time like that.

Ubuntu is awesome btw
it just doesnt run alot of the programs that i run daily unless i spend a lot of time trying to make it work.


it would be nice to hear from mods regarding how much time/effort this is causing them. we have already heard from some.

[PC_LOAD_LETTER]

herbalist, on Aug 19 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

But when a post like that comes to the 9X forum, it's left there.

we moderate posts of that type regardless of the forum.

herbalist, on Aug 19 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

Hopefully this can all be worked out so that the 9X area stays open.

were throwing around ideas and well find a way to make this work for everyone if we can.

herbalist, on Aug 19 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

We're regularly put in the position of having to defend our choices.

yeah if only there was a way for me to know what that was like (page 3 post 45)

[submix8c]

It seems like those that have been around a while should easily be able to recognize spam or flaming. I've at one point in time caught several in a single day and used (OMG!) the "Report" button.

So... it should be the responsibility of all long-standing members to be on the lookout for spam and immediately report it. Mods don't have the time to hunt around all day but many regulars notice it.

As for the flame-fests, well, any reasonable person should be on the look-out for anything unwarranted and also report it. Respect each other, or just leave or be told to leave. I try (not always successfully) to avoid thos topics, but if they get out of hand the offenders should be warned ("Report") and perhaps the topic closed.

After all, it's all in the Rules. Granted, normal members are not Mods or Supervisors, but if I seen someone doing something rather shady in my neighborhood (this is our neighborhood), yer dern-tootin' it's 9-1-1 time. We are, after all, "brothers and sisters" here (one might hope).

I originally came here for help with Win9x and hope that it doesn't come to the original suggestion.

'Nuff said...

[Colonel O'Neill]

I wonder if a voteban method would work?

A voteban can be initiated by anyone with minimum post count and if a certain number of votes are accumulated the person is banned.

It seems to work on CounterStrike:Source; every player has some moderation powers.

This post has been edited by Colonel O'Neill: 23 August 2009 - 03:23 PM

[jcarle]

Colonel O'Neill, on Aug 23 2009, 05:22 PM, said:

I wonder if a voteban method would work?

The problem with vote banning is that it can quickly turn into a popularity contest.