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Opera 10

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#51
CharlotteTheHarlot

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What are the differences between Sysmon ME and w98 versions? I use the w98 version basically from habit.

I dunno. Always wondered about the tweaks to the tools between 98se->ME. They were not simply version string updates like some of the earlier versions (when you look in ExamDIFF there are many differences). I always had this gut feeling that some improvements had been integrated seeing how WinME does have better memory usage and management, but I certainly could be wrong. However, consensus seems to be that things like Defrag contain actual fixes.

Anyway I was just wondering so that I could be on the same page so to speak, and try to see the exact same thing as everyone else here.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...



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#52
Dave-H

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Did you fix your multiple download tabs problem Charlotte?

Dual boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a and Windows XP Professional SP3.
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#53
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Did you fix your multiple download tabs problem Charlotte?

Yup, and I thank you again Dave :thumbup (see original post for an edit). Sorry 'bout that, should have replied directly. Instead I used a time machine to respond in advance to your dead-on accurate reply!

@Everyone ...

It seems they may have got one thing fixed in Opera 10 after all. There was this nasty tendency in Opera 9.xx for some random downloaded files to be defective even when the transfer tab/window pronounced the file as DONE. In the Opera 9.xx in Windows 98 thread see Posts #55 and #62 where I noted it.

Having run a few hundred files through Opera 10.10 now, I have yet to find one that wasn't completed properly. Has anyone else seen the download problem at all in Opera 10.xx?

All things considered though, I would take the once-in-a-while defective download over these random pauses/freezes!

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#54
CharlotteTheHarlot

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This Opera freeze problem is getting downright interesting. Unless I'm mistaken, the freeze seems to be almost on a clock of multiples of six minutes (sometimes 6, sometimes 12 etc). Here is what I have manually noted in the past couple of hours (rough times eyeballed from the tray clock):

;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:02;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:08;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:14;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:26;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:33;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:39;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:46;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:52;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 00:58;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 01:04;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 01:10;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 01:16;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 01:28;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 01:39;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 01:52;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 02:04;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 02:11;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 02:16;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 02:28;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 02:34;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 02:40;###### VERIFIED OPERA FREEZE: 02:52

BTW: If anyone has some knowledge of Win9x compatible Process Monitors please see this thread. With a logging utility as described in that thread, I could produce a much better list.

My current theory is that there is some scheduled housekeeping going on, this housekeeping for some strange reason places the browser into sleep. As I am poorly versed in Java/JRE programming I wonder if any members here who happen to know this topic might recognize sleep and/or scheduled housekeeping as common boilerplate practices (perhaps related to the so-called Javascript garbage collection?).

I found an old discussion that mirrors my experience (see here). That thread is from 2008-04-01 and the version was Opera 9.26 (which I remember as being perfect). Nevertheless the description matches so IMHO we are probably blaming the 10.xx branch wrongly.

EDIT: to everyone experiencing the freezes/pauses, you must read through this thread at opera. It is right on point and vividly describes the frustration. I only found that page through Google and it never turned up in all the local searches I have done over there at Opera during the past few weeks.

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 03 January 2010 - 03:02 AM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#55
triger49

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to Mijzelf, triger49, fortcollins ...

What app were you using to see the 100% CPU usage? If it is SYSMON, is the Win98se or the WinME version?


Hi Charlotte;

Sorry I took so long here, holidays and sooo much good food ...fridge is just never big enough .. :rolleyes:

Anyway, when I was testing, I first tryed Win98se sysmon (is it a memory issue)? Spotted the heavily taxed
CPU....
Next stop was Process explorer...thinking maybe I could catch the offending process ...but the system
would just become unresponsive ...so as a last ditch effort, Checked my router logs to see where the last
request came from...I think it was like 4 out 5 from someplace like adsense or some such non-sense.

To make a long story short, in the meantime....somebody was throwing away this DFI motherboard (still in the box) which was a perfect fit for this Pentium III 933 procesor I had on the shelf. (98se loves it, btw). But it allowed me
to dual boot Windows 7 RC1 ....Which also surprised me how well it ran on this machine.

But in light of all that, I never got back to testing Opera 10 yet ...and the board I did test it with is on the shelf
right now.

Jake

#56
BenoitRen

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I'd like to remind everyone that Java is not JavaScript, and vice versa.
Using Windows 95 OSR 2.5
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#57
CharlotteTheHarlot

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I'd like to remind everyone that Java is not JavaScript, and vice versa.

Understood.

(EDIT: strike entire paragraph, Opera currently has no dependencies on 3rd party Java/JRE whatsoever for normal operation, see next my post).

Where Javascript comes in is in the browser functionality required to process all the webpages coded by script kiddies (but don't get me started on this). Having cut my teeth on C, I am ok with Javascript.

I am seeing references to houskeeping particularly garbage collection which I assume is a practice common to Java coded apps that employs Javascript. Perhaps it is comparable to C++ destructors. Since the Garbage Collection is hardwired into the Java Console (*) I'm betting that this maintenance is tied to one or both Java/Javascript (which are joined at the hip in this example). EDIT * that is the Tools > Advanced > Java Console. If you open it you can then press the letter 'h' and a menu appears:

Commands:
----------------------------------------
c - clear console
f - run finalization
g - run garbage collection
h - help
l - list cached classloaders
m - memory usage
t - dump threads
x - clear classloader cache


(EDIT: that menu is dependent on 3rd party JRE, not seen when JRE is removed, see next post)

This is where Opera and Java and Javascript all collide. I am finding many references to this Garbage Collection along side Javascript all over the place. It looks like a memory management technique/method. In fact it is even mentioned around 2006 in MSKB 919237 You may experience slow performance when you view a Web page that uses JScript in Internet Explorer 6. This accounts for at least one update to Jscript.dll.

I'm really just casting a wide net here hoping that someone with expertise can shed some light on this.

@triger49 ... I'm now convinced that Opera (at least for me) is not pegging the CPU at all, it appears to be 0% CPU utilization. If you ever get a chance to look at this again in ProcExp, please note the CPU useage for Opera.exe and let me know if it flatlines. My testing shows that Opera is suspended, which explains why all keyboard/mouse events are cached (by the OS no doubt), all download packets bounce, and any popped up menus are frozen on-screen during the 'freeze'.

Most Process Monitors fail to segregate the individual process so that the Opera problem can be seen in isolation. See this thread.

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 04 January 2010 - 07:28 PM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#58
BenoitRen

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Both Java and JavaScript are languages that use their own garbage collection. But they are not related.

By the way, I didn't know Opera required the Java run-time. Does it really require it, or does it just ship with it?
Using Windows 95 OSR 2.5
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#59
Dave-H

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Both Java and JavaScript are languages that use their own garbage collection. But they are not related.

By the way, I didn't know Opera required the Java run-time. Does it really require it, or does it just ship with it?

Opera has never needed the Sun Java Runtime to be installed, it has its own Java support built in.
I think that has always been the case, at least back to version 7.
They say that you should always remove any references to Java plugins in the plugins list (Tools>Advanced>Plug-ins), as they can cause conflicts.
You can do that by adding them to plugin-ignore.ini.
:)

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#60
lightning slinger

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Opera has never needed the Sun Java Runtime to be installed, it has its own Java support built in.
I think that has always been the case, at least back to version 7.


Reference to the Knowledge Base in Opera support gives a different view at
http://www.opera.com...ort/kb/view/375

I have, so far as I can remember, always had Enable Java unchecked in all my years of using Opera and have never come across the need to enable it.
There again I don't have problems with Opera.
HTH

#61
Dave-H

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Opera has never needed the Sun Java Runtime to be installed, it has its own Java support built in.
I think that has always been the case, at least back to version 7.


Reference to the Knowledge Base in Opera support gives a different view at
http://www.opera.com...ort/kb/view/375

I have, so far as I can remember, always had Enable Java unchecked in all my years of using Opera and have never come across the need to enable it.
There again I don't have problems with Opera.
HTH

Ah, I stand corrected!
I must have mis-understood something I read ages ago about Opera and Java.
:blushing:
I think what I said about the plugins still applies though.
:)

Edited by Dave-H, 04 January 2010 - 03:57 PM.

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#62
CharlotteTheHarlot

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This thread has been helpful to me. This slight detour about Opera and Java has caused me to dig into enough articles and do some experiments to remove Java from the list of candidates of culprits behind the freezes every six minutes. First let me clarify any misconceptions I posted previously:

Opera currently (January 2010, version 10.10 for Windows) requires no 3rd party Java runtimes or virtual machines to run itself because its compiled binaries have no dependencies to such files for normal operation. Opera official statement here, but as is often the case for me lately, clear and concise explanations are found offsite from Opera. Since around v5.12 Opera has shipped with its own distribution: classes in a JAR archive (easy enough to find) and a mysterious embedded runtime that both Sun and IBM are aware of but Opera itself does not describe.

So, will Opera operate without any trace of Java existing on the computer? Yes. I tested this by purging all remnants of Sun JRE/SDK and MS JVM physically on a Win98se test computer (zipped up all the files and deleted the directories, and close/restart Opera). In this configuration, the only Java that Opera has access to is its own distribution. Note that the physical presence of JRE files on the HDD is signaled to Opera either from the system registry or its local INI files or both.

Opera works as usual, (NB: the pause/freeze still occurs at regular intervals, more on this later). Now, if you try to do what I described in my previous post above: Tools > Advanced > Java Console nothing will happen, which indicates the Java Console is completely dependent on 3rd party JRE components. Interestingly, the presumingly buggy Opera ABOUT page still lists the Sun Java Runtime so it must be reading a string tucked away in some INI file or the system registry. If you try to check Tools > Preferences > Advanced > Enable Java, a dialog pops up to download the Sun JRE (this only occured on the first attempt, subsequent attempts to Enable Java silently disappeared from the screen.

However it seems that its native components (at this point in the experiment: the Opera JAR classes and the mysterious embedded runtime) fail to handle Java content, and proof can be seen on this Java Test Page, which results in a Java error notification from that website. I am left wondering just what this embedded runtime is and just what it is supposed to do. I am beginning to think that zipped classes in a JAR constitute a runtime in Javaland (but there's my lack of knowledge showing again).

So let's also get rid of the native Opera Java components: I zipped up the Java subfolder with its JAR and policy, deleted the original files, rinse and repeat. In this experiment there is not a single trace of Java physically existing on any HDD. Result: Opera works exactly as described above (pause/freezes still exist as well). I conclude that the supplied Java classes and so-called embedded runtime (if it really exists) is only used when a 3rd party Java runtime (Sun JRE) is being utilized by Opera. It's worth noting here that the Sun JRE plugin has absolutely no purpose with regards to Opera, it is meant for other browsers. Opera loads files from the JRE installation directory it does not use any npj*.dll plugin.

As far as I am concerned Java in all its flavors and implementations is now off the hook with regards to the Opera freeze. Stick a fork in it, it's done. Personally I feel that this is way too much research to do in order to exhaust a single ingredient as the problem in this Opera stew (thanks really to all the misguided information all over the net about Opera and Java). Its tantamount to studying ActiveX to debug MSIE problems, which is one main reason I avoid that browser except when absolutely necessary. Whatever. Nothing is easy these days.

Let me also point out that I have done the same exact experiment regarding all of the other plugins (deleting every trace, etc). I really hoped to find Adobe and its Flash disasters to be underneath this problem. Sorry to say, they are not. They may have security problems and memory leaks but Opera continues to operate exactly the same whether or not any plugins even exist on any HDD.

So I am left with some periodic task within Opera itself, occurring nearly every six minutes that paralyzes Opera completely for approximately 30 seconds. My suspicion is that Opera is running JavaScript Garbage Collection, see wiki for basics, including this statement: Simple stop-the-world garbage collectors completely halt execution of the program to run a collection cycle. Hmmm, methinks we're onto something. Once this is solved it will be very interesting to find out why some machines have this while others do not.

Those of you that do not see this problem may not appreciate its significance. Honestly, I do not remember anything this spectacularly painful since Windows 3.1. While typing this long post it has occurred almost a dozen times. Entire sentences are cached and then appear when the freeze thaws. Fortunately the freeze is confined to the Opera instances (though one Win9x hard lockup occurred complete with bluescreen scandisk). For me, there are not words enough to describe the anger and rage that I feel during some of these freezes, it all depends on what you were just doing really. If I have a bunch of downloads in progress, some (both http and ftp) do not recover and become ERROR in the status field. My rough look at this indicates that files originating from slow or non-resumable servers are most likely to die. Regardless, while Opera is suspended, packets are bouncing and this adds great pain to the disaster. Couple these facts with yet another: Opera freezes even if you are completely offline - no modem or ethernet or network at all. This wonderful feature makes any offline web development or browsing of saved webpages equally frustrating.

I am also going to bail from this particular thread since I have personally seen enough evidence to know that Opera 10.xx is not to blame at all. Can someone suggest a better home for a new thread about this generic Opera problem? Would Software Hangout be better?

Finally, I am desperately looking for one utility: a Realtime Process Monitor for Win9x, which can perform a specific function: log to a file when a condition is met. Specifically it must write a log entry whenever Opera.exe freezes, which is notable because its CPU utilization goes to 0%. Please let me know! Thanks!

I am also trying to locate any debug switches or settings that can cause Opera to log its own events, the built-in Error Log seems to be limited to webpage JavaScript errors only (kinda like a validator) but nothing substantial.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#63
Dave-H

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I assume you've seen this Charlotte.
http://my.opera.com/...c.dml?id=334421
In fact you may even have posted to it under another name, but it looks as if you're not alone!
I've never seen this problem myself under Windows 98 or Windows 2000, perhaps I'm one of the lucky ones.....
Cheers, Dave.
:)

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#64
CharlotteTheHarlot

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I assume you've seen this Charlotte.
http://my.opera.com/...c.dml?id=334421
In fact you may even have posted to it under another name, but it looks as if you're not alone!

Yes. Yes. and Yes.

I have multiple confirmations that this problem goes back to 9.2x. Further, there are possibilities that it may even precede that. The strangest relevant symptom is that it is progressive, changing over time, for the worse. There must be some use by Opera of a particular system setting (like a registry based ActiveX security flag) which causes the JavaScript execution to behave differently from one computer to another.

@Everyone ... I have tested over a hundred Process Monitors now, no luck so far finding one that can monitor an individual process/thread and record a log entry when a condition is met :realmad: Still looking though. I believe I can solve this absent that utility, however, I would like concrete evidence of this Opera freeze to present to the devs. So if anyone has any ideas please post them to this thread. Thanks all!

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#65
bristols

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@Charlotte... This is possibly a long shot - forgive me for coming to this a bit cold.

What version of Windows Scripting are you using? Have you compared Opera using MSE v5.6 with 5.7? At least as far as 98 SE is concerned, reverting to 5.6 solved some javascript-related problems for me (though back then I wasn't a heavy user of Opera and I don't have any directly relevant evidence of problems to report). Links to MSE versions (just for your convenience - I'm sure you know where to find them):

http://www.mdgx.com/add.htm#MSE

I use Opera 10.10 on 98 SE and experience no lockups.

Edited by bristols, 06 January 2010 - 06:06 PM.


#66
Andrew T.

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Any theories on the "integer garbage" issue on Windows 95?
Andrew T.
"Now crush your computer into small chunks, add flour, and bake one hour."

#67
lightning slinger

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Opera has never needed the Sun Java Runtime to be installed, it has its own Java support built in.
I think that has always been the case, at least back to version 7.


Reference to the Knowledge Base in Opera support gives a different view at
http://www.opera.com...ort/kb/view/375


From Opera 10.50 Build 3234 Opera is now using the Java Plug-in instead of native Java.


You weren't wrong for long Dave!  ;)

#68
ctrlkhan

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On my Computer (Thinkpad X31) Win98se Sp3 beta +KernelEx +RP9 I also have frequent freezes using Opera 10.10.
But it is not caused by CPU Usage, but by eating up User & GDI Resources.

Opera freezes, while according to RP9 User Resources are at 1% or dropping rapidly.
GDI Resources seem to be fine.

Installing GDI Extender beta1 and setting GDIMaxHeapSize=32000 win.ini section [windows]
seems to make the freezes less frequently.
So GDI Resources are somehow involved.

As I disabled JavaScript and Plugins, either Opera is ignoring these settings or
they are not responsible for these freezes.

#69
lightning slinger

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It does seem strange how some users suffer major problems running Opera and some, myself included suffer no problems whatsoever.

I have been running 10.51 RC3 Build 3315 for a couple of days now without incident on this 98SE machine (fully patched but no additional software).  After around three hours of use, one hour of that viewing the BBCiPlayer using Flash 9.0.124 the resources were System and User @ 85% and GDI @ 88%. Process Explorer v11.10 was giving a figure of between 35-45% CPU usage when using the Flash Player which is significantly better than Opera 10.00 and 10.10 where the figure peaked at 98%.  

Edit: Build 3315 has been released as a Final. 

Edited by lightning slinger, 22 March 2010 - 01:16 PM.





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