Multibooter

UDF-formatted hard disk drives under Windows 98

72 posts in this topic

UDF is known as a file system for DVDs. But very few people know that hard disk drives can also be formatted as UDF. A UDF- formatted HDD can be read by Windows 98 and Windows XP without any special drivers, Windows Explorer seems to work fine with it.

A special file system driver by SAI allows to read and write UDF-formatted HDDs under Win98 and WinXP.

The UDF file system allows theoretically very large file sizes, and it is not Microsoft, but open. A UDF-formatted HDD can be set from read-write to read-only by turning off the special file system driver.

I have attached 3 screenshots of the properties sheet of a UDF-formatted 80 GB HDD, under Win98 and WinXP. Under Win98 the UDF-formatted HDD has 2 drive letter (one is not accessible) when the special file system driver is active, but only 1 drive letter when the MS read-only driver is active. Under WinXP a UDF-formatted HDD has always a single drive letter, regardless of the driver.

SAI refers in their documentation to CDs and DVDs, not to HDDs. UDF-formatted HDDs seem to be uncharted territory under Win98. There are very few software tools for UDF-formatted HDDs. Acronis Disk Director Suite 10.0, for example, displays "File system error: Invalid format", Norton Disk Doctor displays "Unable to read from drive J:" and ScanDisk "cannot check this drive because there is no disk in it, it is not formatted or a disk utility has locked it".

Are there tools to handle UDF-formatted HDDs? Are there any horror stories about them? Does anybody have any experience with them? What are the benefits or disadvantages of a UDF-formatted HDD vs NTFS or FAT32? Could there be any special uses? Win98 Explorer has a major problem with file deletes when IE6 is installed - but maybe there is no such problem on a UDF-formatted HDD? Maybe some bugs of Win98 occur only on FAT/FAT32 partitions, but not on a UDF-formatted HDD? I seem to come across multiple-drive-letter problems quite regularly, do they occur also with a UDF-formatted HDD, which can have only one partition? Can USB sticks and SDHC card be formatted as UDF and be read and written to under Win98? Any ideas and suggestions about UDF-formatted HDDs are welcome.

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Edited by Multibooter
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format

Advantages over NTFS:

- No journaling - better performance

- no trouble with permissions

- Acessible with multiple operating systems

Advantages over FAT32:

- Can handle bigger files

Windows 98 can work with version 1.02.

Since its behaviour is something that has not been tested yet with harddisks it might be interesting. I use UDF for DVDs and videocapturing. It is just a question how can other applications handle different filesystem. Generally there should be no trouble.

Is there any disk tool available, such as scandisk or chkdsk to scan the drive for errors?

And what exact method you have used for formatting?

http://homepage.mac.com/wenguangwang/myhome/udf.html

Edited by Offler
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Reading from a 2TiB HDD under Win98

I have formatted a 2TB HDD to UDF v1.02. The UDF-formatted 2TB HDD is accessible, without special software, as read-only under both Win98SE and WinXP SP2. The Sata rev3.0 2TB HDD (6.0 Gb/s, 64MB cache, 72000 RP/M) was inserted in a Kingwin USB 2.0 EZ-Dock2 docking station (2 slots for altogether 2 HDDs) and connected to a USB 2.0 PCCard in my 11-year-old Inspiron laptop. The EZ-Dock2 was using nusb v3.3.

I am still experimenting, but it looks like the whole 2TBs of the HDD are accessible under Win98SE, without any special software. There is no 137GB limit for UDF-formatted HDDs connected via USB under Win98. The 2TB UDF-formatted HDD was accessed Ok via USB on a near-virgin Win98SE system, on which no 137GB patch (ESDI_506.PDR) was installed [this patch is not needed for HDDs connected via USB]. Under Win98 the 2TB HDD had been set in Device Manager as Removable so that it gets assigned a drive letter, under WinXP the 2TB HDD is recognized immediately as "Local Disk".

wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_systems states as limit of the UDF filesystem "2 TiB (hard disk), 8 TiB (optical disc) (2^^32 times blocksize)". Maybe larger HDDs (up to 16TiB?), with 4kB sectors, can be formatted to UDF and read under Win98 without special software, in the USB enclosures with the JMicron chip But right now I am happy that the 2TB UDF-formatted HDD seems to work Ok under Win98SE and WinXP.

Here an excellent review of the UDF filesystem: http://www.diskinternals.com/glossary/udf.html

The article "Wenguang's Introduction to Universal Disk Format (UDF)" is not available anymore at the link indicated by Offler in posting #3, but can be found at http://web.archive.org/web/20090309023829/http://homepage.mac.com/wenguangwang/myhome/udf.html

I am attaching a screen shot of the Properties sheet of the 2TB HDD under Win98SE.

In the screen shot "0 bytes Free space" shows that the 2TB HDD is read-only, similar to a huge DVD-+R. Read-only media cannot be overwritten by mistake or infected by e.g. exe infectors. 2 years ago the Tenga exe-infector infected one of my 1TB archive HDDs, with FAT32 and NTFS partitions, which demonstrated the vulnerability of regular HDD archives. With some special software on another operating system I can write to the 2TB UDF-formatted HDD (i.e. add/delete stuff in the UDF archive), but not under the normal Win98SE and WinXP operating system selections on my computer.

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Edited by Multibooter
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And what exact method have you used for formatting?

Ditto! As far as I know WriteUDF! is no longer available and, BTW, the Software Architects, Inc. is no more, AFAIK.

Did you find an alternative? dubbio.gif

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I'm not sure what the point of using UDF with Windows 9X is.

Even if the File System can handle larger files, Windows 9x will not handle them. You need my Large File Emulator to do that.

The Read-Only limitation can be bypassed by doing raw Disk I/O so it is not secure.

FAT-32 can be definitely be extended to 16TiB with 4K Sectors. This can be done with or without USB.

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FAT-32 can be definitely be extended to 16TiB with 4K Sectors. This can be done with or without USB.

Getting Win9x/ME and 2k/XP to understand and use 4 kiB sectors, in a manufacturer agnostic way, seems to me one of the most pressing projects, ATM, since 3 TB HDDs are already out there. :yes:

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And what exact method have you used for formatting?

Ditto! As far as I know WriteUDF! is no longer available and, BTW, the Software Architects, Inc. is no more, AFAIK.

Did you find an alternative? dubbio.gif

I would describe all the UDF software I have seen from SAI, when it comes to the use with magnetic media, as alphas, not even as betas. There are dozens of versions, under various names like WriteDVD!, WriteCD-RW, WriteUDF!, WriteUDO! [for Mac], FormatUDF!, ReadDVD!, FixDVD!, FixUDF!, Disk Drive Tune Up, DVD-RAM TuneUp Pro [Mac] and ArchivistPro Hard Disk Edition. The various versions work with specific hardware configurations under some operating systems. Maybe these versions were demos to demonstrate some specific capabilities for specific media/hardware/operating system releases. I have checked out many of these UDF programs by SAI on a dedicated near-virgin operating system selection, to avoid corruptions.

WriteUDF! v1.0.0.4 can quick format a USB HDD to UDF under WinXP SP2. Other versions have other capabilities, some run only under Win9x, others only under WinXP. it's a challenging and interesting heap of semi-finished products, at least when it comes to magnetic media (HDDs, LS-120, zip, jaz, regular floppies, clik! disks, SDHC etc). I assume the SAI software works Ok with plastic media (DVDs, etc), which was probably the main interest of OSTA. BTW, a higher version here probably just indicates that it was prepared at a later point in time. Currently, to me, the only alternative to a SAI version is another SAI version, although I haven't spent much time looking.

Edited by Multibooter
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FAT-32 can be definitely be extended to 16TiB with 4K Sectors. This can be done with or without USB.

Getting Win9x/ME and 2k/XP to understand and use 4 kiB sectors, in a manufacturer agnostic way, seems to me one of the most pressing projects, ATM, since 3 TB HDDs are already out there. :yes:

Getting a 3TB USB Drive to work with Windows 9x was fairly easy. Getting a 3 TB SATA Drive to work was much more complicated as it involved supporting DOS as well as upgrading the Disk Driver. A DDO is also needed if 4KB Sector emulation is required.

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I'm not sure what the point of using UDF with Windows 9X is.
UDF v1.02 is one of the file systems which Win98 understands and which is not tied to Microsoft. Increased knowledge about UDF under Win98 may lead to surprising results. Maybe it will eventually be possible to burn a DL-DVD from an 8GB iso on a UDF-formatted archive HDD, under Win98.
Even if the File System can handle larger files, Windows 9x will not handle them. You need my Large File Emulator to do that.
I have double-clicked under Win98 on an 8GB .iso image of a DL DVD on the UDF-formatted HDD. The .iso image opened fine in UltraISO v9.3.6.2750. When I extracted under Win98 the files in the 8GB .iso image, all files extracted, but about half of them had a different content from the files on the original DL-DVD, the other half of the files were identical to the files on the original DL-DVD. The same happened when I extracted the 8GB .iso file under Win98 with WinRAR and MagicISO. IsoBuster 2.5.0.0 encountered bad sectors [non-existent in the original files] in some files when trying to extract the 8GB .iso under Win98.

What is interesting in this experiment is that an 8GB file could be opened under Win98 if the 8GB file was residing on UDF v1.02 media, but something during the processing/extraction went wrong, perhaps because of some glitch in Win98. WinRAR, UltraISO and MagicISO completed the extraction of the 8GB file under Win98 without an error message, but again, about half of the stuff extracted by them was incorrect. Maybe, with a patch, or with a modification of your Large File Emulator, the 4GB file size barrier under Win98 can be broken with UDF media.

Experiments under Win98 can probably be made just as well with 8GB etc iso files on UDF-formatted blu-ray BD-RE media.

The Read-Only limitation can be bypassed by doing raw Disk I/O so it is not secure.
It's a file system driver limitation, so I doubt that malware will be able to overcome this. Edited by Multibooter
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I'm not sure what the point of using UDF with Windows 9X is.
UDF v1.02 is one of the file systems which Win98 understands and which is not tied to Microsoft. Increased knowledge about UDF under Win98 may lead to surprising results. Maybe it will eventually be possible to burn a DL-DVD from an 8GB iso on a UDF-formatted archive HDD, under Win98.

Probably. I already created an ISO/Joliet Formatted Hard Disk using 2K Sector Emulation that was readable under Windows 9x. It was from a CD so it could always be reburned.

Even if the File System can handle larger files, Windows 9x will not handle them. You need my Large File Emulator to do that.
I have double-clicked under Win98 on an 8GB .iso image of a DL DVD on the UDF-formatted HDD. The .iso image opened fine in UltraISO v9.3.6.2750. When I extracted under Win98 the files in the 8GB .iso image, all files extracted, but about half of them had a different content from the files on the original DL-DVD, the other half of the files were identical to the files on the original DL-DVD. The same happened when I extracted the 8GB .iso file under Win98 with WinRAR and MagicISO. IsoBuster 2.5.0.0 encountered bad sectors [non-existent in the original files] in some files when trying to extract the 8GB .iso under Win98.

What is interesting in this experiment is that an 8GB file could be opened under Win98 if the 8GB file was residing on UDF v1.02 media, but something during the processing/extraction went wrong, perhaps because of some glitch in Win98. WinRAR, UltraISO and MagicISO completed the extraction of the 8GB file under Win98 without an error message, but again, about half of the stuff extracted by them was incorrect. Maybe, with a patch, or with a modification of your Large File Emulator, the 4GB file size barrier under Win98 can be broken with UDF media.

Experiments under Win98 can probably be made just as well with 8GB etc iso files on UDF-formatted blu-ray BD-RE media.

The internal structures used for File I/O are 32-Bits. This is why no File System can truly handle more than 4GiB Files. You may not get an error but the data will be wrong.

My Large File Emulator simulates a larger File at the User API by creating multiple smaller files. This is why it works with FAT32. It won't help with actual large files on an UDF Partition.

I already have created a Bootable Read/Write BD-RE that looks like a 23GB Floppy Disk, but it uses FAT32.

The Read-Only limitation can be bypassed by doing raw Disk I/O so it is not secure.
It's a file system driver limitation, so I doubt that malware will be able to overcome this.

Raw Disk I/O bypasses the File System Driver so smart malware could change even a "Read-Only" File System.

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What about a DDO that reads a GPT device and presents it to 9x/ME/2k/XP as a 4 KiB (or maybe 2 KiB) sectored FAT device? Wouldn't that solve all problems at the same time? Of course, a DOS patch would be needed, too, for 9x/ME.

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I already created an ISO/Joliet Formatted Hard Disk using 2K Sector Emulation that was readable under Windows 9x. It was from a CD so it could always be reburned.
Wow! How did you format the HDD to ISO/Joliet exactly? How large was the formatted HDD?
The internal structures used for File I/O are 32-Bits. This is why no File System can truly handle more than 4GiB Files. You may not get an error but the data will be wrong.
What gives me still a glimmer of hope is that about half the files extracted from the 8GB file under Win98 were Ok. If something doesn't work, then often all or most results are bad, but just 50%. Or do the 50% Ok files reflect 4GB accessible, and 4GB not accessible?

Maybe 90% of the files extracted Ok from the 8GB iso seem to have been in a perhaps contiguous chunk of the iso, i.e. all files in the folders DB075 to DB119 of the extracted iso were identical to those on the DVD, while most files in the folders DB001 to DB069 of the 8GB .iso had completely different content (but identical file names and file sizes).

My Large File Emulator simulates a larger File at the User API by creating multiple smaller files. This is why it works with FAT32. It won't help with actual large files on an UDF Partition.
My intention was to extract an 8GB file into small components, not to create an 8GB file
Raw Disk I/O bypasses the File System Driver so smart malware could change even a "Read-Only" File System.
Whether UDF is read-only or read-and-write depends on the file system driver used. The MS UDF file system driver under Win98SE allows only reading from UDF files, while the SAI UDF file system driver allows reading and writing. The UDF software from SAI comes with a SAI file system switching utility, which allows to switch between the MS and the SAI file system drivers. After switching the file system driver you have to reboot. The Windows 98 Resource Kit contains some info about UDF under Win98 (pp. 1312-1319, 1213, 442, 467).
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I already created an ISO/Joliet Formatted Hard Disk using 2K Sector Emulation that was readable under Windows 9x. It was from a CD so it could always be reburned.
Wow! How did you format the HDD to ISO/Joliet exactly? How large was the formatted HDD?

I used my RFDISK Program to create a custom MBR and set a flag in it to indicate 2K Sector Emulation. I rebooted into DOS using my DDO and copied an ISO directly to the Hard Drive except for Sector 0. After rebooting again I could access it from Windows. The formatted HD was the size of the ISO. Not particularly efficient but it worked. Using my ISO writer and Large File Emulator, I could make any size ISO. This of course requires my Terabyte Plus Patches to emulate and support the 2K Sectors.

The internal structures used for File I/O are 32-Bits. This is why no File System can truly handle more than 4GiB Files. You may not get an error but the data will be wrong.
What gives me still a glimmer of hope is that about half the files extracted from the 8GB file under Win98 were Ok. If something doesn't work, then often all or most results are bad, but just 50%. Or do the 50% Ok files reflect 4GB accessible, and 4GB not accessible?

Maybe 90% of the files extracted Ok from the 8GB iso seem to have been in a perhaps contiguous chunk of the iso, i.e. all files in the folders DB075 to DB119 of the extracted iso were identical to those on the DVD, while most files in the folders DB001 to DB069 of the 8GB .iso had completely different content (but identical file names and file sizes).

The 4GiB limitation is on the size of the files not the entire FileSystem, but if you have created an Image (ISO) File to extract from rather than extracting from the original media, the limit applies.

All of the Directories and File Info are near the beginning of the Disk. This is why all Filenames and attributes appear correct, even if the File Data is near the end. The first 4GiB of data extracted correctly, but the remainder was garbage.

My Large File Emulator simulates a larger File at the User API by creating multiple smaller files. This is why it works with FAT32. It won't help with actual large files on an UDF Partition.
My intention was to extract an 8GB file into small components, not to create an 8GB file

The problem is you created an 8GB ISO File. You would have had to rip the DVD-DL with my Large File Emulator active to create the Emulated ISO File, then you could extract from it.

Raw Disk I/O bypasses the File System Driver so smart malware could change even a "Read-Only" File System.
Whether UDF is read-only or read-and-write depends on the file system driver used. The MS UDF file system driver under Win98SE allows only reading from UDF files, while the SAI UDF file system driver allows reading and writing. The UDF software from SAI comes with a SAI file system switching utility, which allows to switch between the MS and the SAI file system drivers. After switching the file system driver you have to reboot. The Windows 98 Resource Kit contains some info about UDF under Win98 (pp. 1312-1319, 1213, 442, 467).

True. But what I said still applies.

@Dencorso: I have been experimenting with a GPT Booter but DOS and Windows would have to be modified to Enumerate GPT Partitions.

I already created a MBR extension that supports 512TiB with 512 Byte Sectors, more with larger ones, that only required relatively simple Patches. It is already in my Terabyte Plus Package along with the Partitioning Tool and Formatter that supports it.

2K and XP are another story entirely. They would only use the DDO during initial loading and would revert afterwards. Implementing the MBR Extension would be less complicated.

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As often happens OT :ph34r:, but not much, it seems like our good Linux friends have a distinctive advantage on this, though it *seems* like also Vista :w00t: and 7 users have it:

http://superuser.com/questions/39942/using-udf-on-a-usb-flash-drive

http://serverfault.com/questions/55089/with-what-tool-should-i-format-a-hard-drive-as-udf

About iso's used on hard disk one can use a hybrid .iso allright, some interesting things here :yes: :

http://reboot.pro/9916/

jaclaz

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