UDF-formatted hard disk drives under Windows 98

[Multibooter]

Did you find an alternative?

... it seems like our good Linux friends have a distinctive advantage on this, though it *seems* like also Vista and 7 users have it: ... http://serverfault.com/questions/55089/with-what-tool-should-i-format-a-hard-drive-as-udf

Thanks jaclaz, a very interesting link, here a quote from it:

I know two ways to format a hard drive as UDF:

* Windows Vista or later: "format x: /fs:UDF" (don't use /q ! )

* Linux: "mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 /dev/sdx"

http://serverfault.com/questions/55089/with-what-tool-should-i-format-a-hard-drive-as-udf

With which versions of UDF can Vista and Linux format HDDs?

I have dumped Vista from my computer, so I cannot check. The book "Windows Vista Inside Out" (MS Press, 2007, pp.921-923) states that Windows Vista supports UDF v1.50 thru 2.60. "Note that all of these variants are afforded read-write support by Windows Vista, and that none of them are supported in any form on Win9x platforms". On first glance it appears to me that the purpose of UDF 2.50 and UDF 2.60 was to introduce incompatibilities so that companies would have to upgrade their older windows and transfer money to MS. Reminds me somehow of the incompatibilities of the various Word, etc formats.

I have formatted the HDD to UDF v1.02, which can be read by Win98SE and WinXP without special software. In the revision history of UDF http://web.archive.org/web/20090309023829/http://homepage.mac.com/wenguangwang/myhome/udf.html Wenguang states:

"UDF 1.50 adds virtual partition and sparable partition. Virtual partition allows a write-once media (CD-R, DVD-R and DVD+R) appears as an overwritable media. A write-once media appears as an overwritable floppy (but hundreds or thousands times larger), except that its available space keeps decreasing as you use it. Even removing files cannot reclaim space. The sparable partition performs defect management on the media, similar to what the hard drive firmware does on modern hard drives... A sparable partition makes a disc with many defects appear as a good one with a contiguous logical space. "

So UDF 1.50, the next version after v1.02, adds features for plastic media, which are probably not needed for HDDs, which have their own defect management. Any ideas which version of UDF is the best for HDDs? WriteUDF! v1.0.0.4 can format under WinXP SP2 the UDF versions from 1.02 thru 2.60, so for the sake of compatibility I chose UDF 1.02.

Maybe these versions were demos to demonstrate some specific capabilities for specific media/hardware/operating system releases.

There may exist a newer version of "WriteUDF! UDF Data Writer" v1.0.3 for Windows Vista http://www.cdrinfo.com/sections/news/Details.aspx?NewsId=22745 although I didn't see it for sale at Digital River when I looked 3 years ago. The product announcement by cdrinfo.com dated March 12, 2008 states: "The software is available from 20 March 2008"

Here is a listing of the file systems supported by Windows 8, but without an indication of the UDF version numbers supported: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/query/aa383358 Can Windows Vista, 7 and 8 read HDDs formatted to UDF 1.02?

Edited July 22, 2012 by Multibooter

[dencorso]

There are currently various versions of UDF used in the market:

* v1.02 - Basic file system as used by DVD video players (i.e. rental movies)

* v1.50 - Support for CD-R and CD-RW media

* v2.00 - Support for NT streaming.

* v2.01 - Support for RealTime Video Recording Files (ability to copy, read and delete VRO files).

* v2.50 - Support for the Metadata Partition facilitating metadata clustering and optional duplication of file system information.

* v2.60 - Support for Pseudo OverWrite capability on sequentially recordable BD-R media for consumer recorders.

The problem is that not all Windows and Mac operating systems can always read UDF formatted volumes. For example, Windows NT does not provide support for reading UDF disks at all. Win 98SE, 2000 and ME provide support for v1.02 and limited support for v1.5 (it doesn't handle CD-RW), and don't support UDF v2.00, 2.01, 2.50 or 2.60 at all. Also, the native Windows UDF reader frequently has difficulty with discs formatted with Roxio's proprietary version of UDF.

The above quotation is from this page (preserved by the Internet Archive).

• The version of Microsoft Windows that you are using may not support the UDF version that is used on the disc. Most DVD-ROM/video that contain UDF 1.02 CD or DVD R/RW content that was recorded by "drag-and-drop" software will contain UDF 1.5 or later. Windows XP supports UDF 1.02' date=' 1.5, and 2.01[/color']
  
• Certain "drag-and-drop" recording programs (for example, the Adaptec/Roxio DirectCD program) allow the use of "compression" when you format discs. Compression is not a part of the OSTA UDF standard, and discs that have compression may not be readable by any UDF reader except readers from that software vendor

[Multibooter]

As often happens OT , but not much, it seems like our good Linux friends have a distinctive advantage on this, though it *seems* like also Vista and 7 users have it: http://superuser.com/questions/39942/using-udf-on-a-usb-flash-drive

Disk Drive Tune Up v3.1.2 under Win98SE can format SDHC cards in a USB SDHC card reader. I just stuck an old 16GB SDHC card formatted to UDF 1.02 into an SDHC card reader and WinXP SP2 could read it Ok, without any special software.

Here an older link

The subsequent posting #32 there by Offler may also be of interest:

"I was able to acess 8gb files, even write 8gb files with video creating program" (under Win98???)

[Multibooter]

The above quotation is from this page (preserved by the Internet Archive).

I would doubt that ReadDVD! v2.0 for MS Vista works for UDF-formatted HDDs, but I haven't tried it. Only a subset of builds/versions of SAI software works with UDF-formatted HDDs. When SAI used the term "Disk" they usually meant optical (plastic) media, not hard disk drives. Identifying whether a specific build/version works with specific magnetic media is a matter of trial and error, just like looking for undocumented features. And when a product announcement said that it works with Win2000 or WinXP - which version of Win2000 or WinXP did SAI mean? And some claims that a product works on a HDD I have not been able to confirm. Very time-consuming experimentation.

Here is an old posting of mine when I was fiddling around with SAI UDF software which works on removable media, but not on hard disk drives under WinXP

Here a product announcement of ReadDVD! v2.0 for MS Windows Vista http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=22294 Again this is a READER, not a writer of UDF, probably intended for users of Win2000/XP (Win98???) permitting access to stuff created by and for Windows Vista, i.e. UDF 2.50 and UDF 2.60.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Multibooter

[Multibooter]

MS Live File System

MS Live File System seems to be a modification of UDF with incompatibilities so that it doesn't work on operating systems other than Microsoft XP and higher. The English-language wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_File_System has hardly any information about it, so here a link to the German-language page with content http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_File_System

"Kompatibilität[:] Das Livedateisystem ist nach Angaben von Microsoft nur mit Microsoft Windows XP und späteren Versionen des Betriebssystems Microsoft Windows kompatibel. Andere Betriebssysteme werden nicht unterstützt... LFS implementiert nicht die im UDF-Standard vorgesehenen Access Control Listen und eine Implementierung ist auch nicht geplant"

So a HDD formatted under Vista to MS-modded UDF 2.5 may not be a "Universal Disk Format" anymore, but just a "DF" (="Disk Format"). Nearly all operating systems can read UDF 1.02, except for DOS or MS Win3.x in the listing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format No idea whether Windows 7 or 8 use MS-modded UDF versions.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Multibooter

[LoneCrusader]

Nearly all operating systems can read UDF 1.02, except for DOS or MS Win3.x in the listing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format

Technically that page should differentiate versions of Windows 9x. Windows 95 does NOT natively support UDF. Thanks to rloew, UDF 1.02 support is now available for Windows 95, but before this would have required third-party reader/writer software.

Edited July 22, 2012 by LoneCrusader

[Multibooter]

MS Live File System and non-compliant UDF file structures

Here an excerpt of a product description of FixUDF of 3 years ago, which apparently is not available at the internet anymore:

"Why use our Fix Utilities? ... non-compliant UDF file structures (the OSTA standard may not have been used when the file structure was created. For example Roxio's DirectCD , BHA's B's Clip and Aplix's PacketMan UDF file system utilities create a non-standard UDF format, and therefore are not interchangeable with other kinds of systems.)"

Here another excerpt about FixUDF (and other SAI products): "The UDF format for disk file structures [of SAI products] is based on the standard developed by the Optical Storage Association (OSTA)."

So I could imagine that an external UDF-formatted HDD, written to by the MS-modded UDF and by e.g. WriteUDF, could eventually get corrupted.

BTW FixUDF repairs only UDF 1.02, 1.50 2.0 and 2.01, NOT 2.50 or 2.60, so UDF 2.50 and UDF 2.60 can be rejected because of a lack of diagnostic/repair utilities.

[Multibooter]

Nearly all operating systems can read UDF 1.02, except for DOS or MS Win3.x in the listing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format

Technically that page should differentiate versions of Windows 9x. Windows 95 does NOT natively support UDF. Thanks to rloew, UDF 1.02 support is now available for Windows 95, but before this would have required third-party reader/writer software.

Hi LoneCrusader,

Not everything in wikipedia is correct CP/M, for example, was omitted from that list of operating systems

IsoBuster v2.5.0.0 of 23-Dec-2008 (there is also a build 2.5.0.0 of 19-Dec-2013) is the last version for Win9x and according to the product description supports Win95 http://web.archive.org/web/20090123003203/http://smart-projects.net/? IsoBuster reads basically anything written onto plastic, at least what's computer-readable, without stability issues as with the Adaptec UDF reader.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Multibooter

[Multibooter]

As far as I know WriteUDF! is no longer available and, BTW, the Software Architects, Inc. is no more, AFAIK.

The products of Software Architects appear indeed to be no longer available at digitalriver.com , except perhaps in Japanese, google search string: "site:digitalriver.com softarch".

maybe: http://store.digitalriver.com/store/softarch/ja_JP/pd/productID.43318000 or http://store.digitalriver.com/store?Action=ContinueShopping&Env=BASE&Locale=ja_JP&SiteID=softarch

Edited July 22, 2012 by Multibooter

[LoneCrusader]

Not everything in wikipedia is correct

Naturally.

Just pointing it out for clarification here, as this is a Windows 9x forum, and since you specifically named DOS and Win 3.x as being unable to read it, it gives the impression that Windows 95 would be able to read it.

Do we have any Wikipedia editors present that would care to fix it there?

[jaclaz]

@Multibooter

Of course READing UDF is "easy", according to the posted link it seems like both Linux and Vista (and later) can Format a drive as UDF and read/WRITE the filesystem.

jaclaz

[Multibooter]

READing UDF is "easy", according to the posted link it seems like both Linux and Vista (and later) can Format a drive as UDF and read/WRITE the filesystem.

Hi jaclaz,

Thanks again for your link to http://serverfault.com/questions/55089/with-what-tool-should-i-format-a-hard-drive-as-udf in posting #15.

UDF v1.02 under Ubuntu

I have connected a Kingwin EZ-Dock USB docking station containing the 2TB HDD formatted to UDF 1.02 to a computer running Ubuntu v11.04 - and voilá, the 2TB UDF-formatted HDD and the stuff on it were recognized immediately by Ubuntu. Under Ubuntu v11.04 I was able to copy files onto the UDF-formatted HDD, Ubuntu apparently can read and write to HDDs formatted to UDF 1.02. I was able to read the files written by Ubuntu under Win98SE and WinXP.

Data on an archive HDD formatted to UDF 1.02 can be accessed under Win98SE, WinXP and Linux, with no special reading software required. UDF-formatted HDDs may be of particular use for users of multiple operating systems and for a gradual migration from Windows to Linux.

I am attaching a screenshot of the Properties sheet under Ubuntu of the 2TB HDD formatted to UDF 1.02. The 2TB was originally formatted under WinXP, in a USB/eSATA docking station, with WriteUDF! to UDF 1.02

Formatting a 2TB HDD to UDF under Ubuntu

I tried to format the same 2TB HDD, already formatted to UDF 1.02, under Ubuntu to UDF, with the following line:

mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 /dev/sdb1

Unfortunately Ubuntu replied:

Error opening device: Permission denied

Any suggestions?

Edited July 24, 2012 by Multibooter

[dencorso]

Try:

sudo mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 /dev/sdb1

[Multibooter]

Try: sudo mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 /dev/sdb1

Hi dencorso,

I tried, the lights of the external 2TB HDD to be formatted did not flash, the Ubuntu computer was apparently accessing the internal disk a lot, for maybe 5 minutes, when the disk access light stopped flashing I shut down and rebooted, Ubuntu came up Ok. When I click on the Permissions tab of the Properties sheet of the 2TB HDD under Ubuntu, the message: "The permissions of "disk" could not be determined." is displayed under the tab, and nothing else, except for the Help and Close buttons.

Maybe the above format command works on blank disks, not on HDDs already formatted to UDF 1.02? Here some listings of parameters of mkudffs: http://linux.die.net/man/8/mkudffs or http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/natty/man1/mkudffs.1.html A blocksize 512 is not listed there as a valid parameter

When I enter sudo fdisk -l Ubuntu displays /dev/sdb and /dev/sdb1, both with System HPFS/NTFS and 2000.4GB. A UDF drive with a partition?

Edited July 24, 2012 by Multibooter

[jaclaz]

From the little I can understand, the /sdb1 is a partition on the HD.

The example in the thread:

http://serverfault.com/questions/55089/with-what-tool-should-i-format-a-hard-drive-as-udf

is about /sdx (i.e. a WHOLE hard disk), as well as the man pages you found.

The whole disk vs partition issue still causes compatibility problems. Windows won't mount when I format the whole disk, and OS X doesn't look beyond the partition's type number when determining its filesystem, forcing me to mount it manually. Linux didn't care, as long as I gave it the appropriate device name (sda vs sda1).

So, it seems like the command is designed on Linux for non-partitioned media (and cannot say if 2 Tb is simply "too big").

On the other hand I presume that on Linux there is *some* way to map a partition/volume (already existing - created with fdisk or the like) to a whole device

Though we now know that partition ID's in the MBR are actually just "protective" partition ID's:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/determining-filesystem-type.html

one has anyway to find a suitable partition ID for the UDF filesystem ....

We need someone with Vista or later to test the behaviour described on that thread. but right now it seems to me like for the good MS guys a UDF volume is a volume, whilst for the good Linux guys a UDF device is a device (though it is very possible that - as said - there is a workaround under Linux, whilst most probably under Vista and later, you can have that effect by using rdummy.sys).

In case anyone wants to experiment, reference to rdummy.sys:

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=24966

jaclaz