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herbalist

Dual boot, 98 and XP with one hard drive

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I recently picked up a Dell OptiPlex GX260 with XP-SP3 installed as payment for servicing other PCs. It has a Pentium 4 2.40 Ghz and 1GB of RAM. My first thought was to put a 98lite system on it, just to see how fast it could go. It turns out that Dell still has all the 98 drivers I need for this unit on their site. No matter how the rest turns out, this I get to build. :w00t:

I've decided that I also want to keep the XP install as well, if for no other purpose as a test unit and have a dual boot system. When I opened up the unit, I found that the cabinet has no place to mount a 2nd hard drive. There's just no room. In order to dual boot 98 and XP, both OS will need to be on one hard drive. A while ago, I saw just such a setup on a laptop with XP and Vista both installed on one partition. I wish I had examined that setup more closely. It seems that it should be possible to do the same with 98 and XP.

I've already converted the hard drive to FAT32, and partitioned it into 2, but I have one more big problem. I don't have the disks to reinstall XP. I'm stuck working with the existing install or backups of it.

I have an idea but I don't know if it will work. I'd copy all of the XP system to an external hard drive using my DOS CD, which has USB and long file name support. Then I'd install 98 with the Windows folder renamed to Win98. On 98, TweakUI has the ability to change the locations of "special folders", including the program files and common files directories. The XP version of TweakUI doesn't have the option to move the "program files" folder. I'd copy the contents of "program files" to "software", change the setting with TweakUI, then install everything to the software folder. When the 98 system is complete, I'd copy the XP files back to C:\. With 98 being installed in Win98 and Program_files relocated to "software", there should be no file/folder name conflicts (I hope).

Has anyone tried this? Does it have a chance of working? I realize that I'll probably need a bootloader. Does anyone have another idea that will work on a single hard drive with an existing install of XP? All ideas and comments (except for "skip the 98 system") welcome.

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There are threads on that (installing Win98 after XP) but don't recollect which.

I'd recommend keeping XP on the first partition and put Win98 on the second. This might be accomplished by using GRUB4DOS. Under the circumstances, though, it might need to be installed in the MBR as opposed to a "first" partition. So, before you proceed search MSFN for GRUB4DOS to see the details (one of the threads I had seen). Also include "jaclaz" as Member Name since he's somewhat of an expert.

HTH

edit - Now I remember that it's possible to add the Grub Loader to the OS Selection screen (with XP installed on partition1) to maybe allow installing 98 on parition2. Read up and "choose your pizen"; just remember to not destroy the current XP by messing up the MBR, PBR, and Partition Tables.

I've already converted the hard drive to FAT32, and partitioned it into 2, but I have one more big problem. I don't have the disks to reinstall XP. I'm stuck working with the existing install or backups of it.
Assumes that you used repartitioning methods allowing for the existing XP to continue to function.

edit2 - more info - by altering/setting up the Grub, there's a way to extract (using tools you'll find references to) the Boot Block(?) for XP, save it, and tell Grub to use its own loader tp point to the xp loader OR the 98 "loader". Somewhat complicated and risky, so be sure of what you're doing. You might want to grab a good Live Linux or create a Live XP bootable CD (provided you have a good set of XP I386 on existing also useable to create a "raw" bootable install cd) just in case...

edit3 - a link -

How to easily create...

Edited by submix8c

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The very first thing I did was to make a full backup of the original NT system, so no matter what happens, I can start over. I have a couple of Linux Live CDs but nothing with XP files. This PC has no backup files or restore points on it, so I have nothing to make an install CD with.

The HD is partitioned into 27GB for C: (the system drive) and 10GB for D:. I'm presently using the D: a storage drive for backups, software and drivers. If possible, I'd like to keep the "D" drive as a data storage and put both systems on "C". Can Grub4DOS accommodate such a setup?

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... It turns out that Dell still has all the 98 drivers I need for this unit on their site. No matter how the rest turns out, this I get to build. :w00t:

I've decided that I also want to keep the XP install as well, if for no other purpose as a test unit and have a dual boot system. When I opened up the unit, I found that the cabinet has no place to mount a 2nd hard drive. There's just no room. In order to dual boot 98 and XP, both OS will need to be on one hard drive....

If you only want to use Windows 98 and Windows XP the easiest solution is in this post:

http://www.msfn.org/board/create-easily-se...er-t118623.html

If you want to use more OS the best solution I know is GRUB4DOS.

HTH

Edited by cannie

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The very first thing I did was to make a full backup of the original NT system, so no matter what happens, I can start over. I have a couple of Linux Live CDs but nothing with XP files. This PC has no backup files or restore points on it, so I have nothing to make an install CD with.
Good idea. But you might as well save the MBR from your partitions just so you don't have to reinstall everything in case the boot sector are erased when you install 98... You can use "MBR Save and restore" or Super Fdisk for that purpose.
The HD is partitioned into 27GB for C: (the system drive) and 10GB for D:. I'm presently using the D: a storage drive for backups, software and drivers. If possible, I'd like to keep the "D" drive as a data storage and put both systems on "C". Can Grub4DOS accommodate such a setup?
As far as I remember, Grub4Dos lets Windows think he's booting from the first primary partition (C:) so 98 and XP should both be standing on C:.

Windows should then assign D: to the second primary partition (XP or 98), and E: to your logical partitions (your data, assuming it's on a logical partition...). So, by default, your data partition will not be left as D:.

On XP, you'll have to use the "manage computer" menu to swap the drive letters and on 98, you'll need "Letter Assigner" to do the same job.

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Windows should then assign D: to the second primary partition (XP or 98), and E: to your logical partitions

From what I understand, Herbalist wants to keep 2 partitions, with both OS on the 1st one (-> no E drive). More complicated. If it is possible by mastering Grub4dos (?), he has to be carefull with duplicate files and folder names.

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That's exactly what I have in mind. I'm almost positive the laptop I worked on had just such a setup, but with XP and Vista. I'm also pretty sure that the bootloader was part of the Vista install.

I've made Acronis backups of both the finished NTFS and FAT32 converted system to the "D" drive and copied all the backups on the "D" drive to a flash drive, just in case it gets damaged. At the moment, I've put the hard drive into my 98 box and am making a 7zip archive of the entire "C" drive, not including the swap file. Once that's done, I'll back up the MBR and start building the 98 system.

How much difference is there between the XP and the 2K bootloader? I have a 2K CD and an existing system with 2K and 98 that uses the 2K bootloader. Might it be possible to use it in place of XPs bootloader? If they're basically the same, maybe I can do a temporary 2K install on "D" to get the 2K bootloader installed, then edit boot.ini to point at the XP system I'll copy back to the "C" drive. Would this possibly work?

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It seems to me everyone is making this more complicated that needed.

We are talking of a simple dual booting between XP and 98.

There is no actual "need" for grub4dos or any of the other "advanced" bootloaders.

NTLDR can manage the thing easily.

You might need bootpart as a useful tool:

http://www.winimage.com/bootpart.htm

Read the appropriate guide here:

http://thpc.info/dualboot.html

here:

http://thpc.info/dual/dual_xp_2k_nt.html

or here:

http://thpc.info/dual/dual_9xme.html

jaclaz

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Windows should then assign D: to the second primary partition (XP or 98), and E: to your logical partitions

From what I understand, Herbalist wants to keep 2 partitions, with both OS on the 1st one (-> no E drive). More complicated. If it is possible by mastering Grub4dos (?), he has to be carefull with duplicate files and folder names.

I see. So Herbalist, let me understand : you want to install 98 on the actual XP partition ? :huh:

- If that's the case then it's possible but I don't advise you to do that. You'd have to change (at the least) the "Windows" directory and the "program files" directory so that they don't overlap. Still, you could be subject to odd behaviors. A few programs use harcoded paths even if they shouldn't and anyway Windows is not made to share a partition whith another OS.

Besides, if you don't want an E: drive letter that much, then Grub4Dos is capable of hiding one system to another and you'll be left with C: and D:.

- If it's not what you wanna do (and just want your data to stay on D:), then you just need Letter Assigner.

It seems to me everyone is making this more complicated that needed.

We are talking of a simple dual booting between XP and 98.

There is no actual "need" for grub4dos or any of the other "advanced" bootloaders.

NTLDR can manage the thing easily.

True but don't forget that Herbalist doesn't have an XP CD. Yet, many of the methods explained in the site you linked involve reinstalling / repairing XP.

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I see. So Herbalist, let me understand : you want to install 98 on the actual XP partition ?

Yes, I'm trying to put both XP and 98 on the same partition. I expect to have to manually copy one of the two sets of files onto the "C" drive. Which one remains to be seen. The XP system is complete, ready to go. I have Acronis images of the "C" drive and one of the whole disk. I also have a 7zip archive of the entire XP system ready as well.

At the moment, I'm starting over building the 98 system. I had a lite 98FE system going that was incredibly fast, booting up in well under 15 seconds. Managed to fix windows protection errors for ndis.vxd, then fought through free memory range conflicts with the display adapter only to find that all but one of the 98 drivers Dell had on their site were for 98SE and don't work with FE. Neither the site or the files said 98SE, just 98. :realmad: As much as I appreciate that they still have 98 drivers available, it would be nice if they'd give a little more accurate information regarding what they're for.

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Why must it be on the same partition? Two botable system partitions and a data partition, three partitions in all, would be much simpler to implement and to manage, especially when things get ugly. With a single partition, when (and if) it gets fubar you won't, in all probability, even be able to boot from the HDD. Not to mention it's way more difficult to accomplish.

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Why must it be on the same partition? Two botable system partitions and a data partition, three partitions in all, would be much simpler to implement and to manage, especially when things get ugly. With a single partition, when (and if) it gets fubar you won't, in all probability, even be able to boot from the HDD. Not to mention it's way more difficult to accomplish.

:thumbup

Exhaustively explained in the above given adresss:

http://www.msfn.org/board/create-easily-se...er-t118623.html

Look at paragraph B of the first post.

HTH

Edited by cannie

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(um... I mentioned that topic in post#2... c'mon, guys!)

And... are you absolutely certain that you have no I386 folder for the XP? Seems kind of odd unless the XP installed from a CD (no I386 folder).

Otherwise, do a little "light reading" in said topic...

And I concur, don't install on the same partition because it do get really hairy! Can't mix-and-match...

Edited by submix8c

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(um... I mentioned that topic in post#2... c'mon, guys!)

Of course submix8c.

Also I had mentioned it myself previously in post 4.

But taking into consideration that the said topic is very extensive, now the idea has been to specify just the paragraph where the creation of a doubleboot Windows 98/XP using a primary partition and a logical unit in the extended one is described, putting it in red letters.

As suggested by dencorso the tutorial is based in the idea of having two bootable primary partitions, using XP in the first one and a cloned copy of it in the second, sharing both the same Windows 98 which is installed into a logical unit of the extended partition (data partition) so that the drive letter keeps being the same no matter which one of the primary ones are you using. This way you can switch the bootable partition in case of need, having always a boot screen which allows you to run Windows 98 whenever needed.

Greetings.

Edited by cannie

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I see. So Herbalist, let me understand : you want to install 98 on the actual XP partition ?
Yes, I'm trying to put both XP and 98 on the same partition. I expect to have to manually copy one of the two sets of files onto the "C" drive <snip> Acronis images of the <snip> whole disk. <snip>

<snip-irrelevant> Managed to fix windows protection errors for ndis.vxd, then fought through free memory range conflicts with the display adapter only to find that all but one of the 98 drivers Dell had on their site were for 98SE and don't work with FE. <snip-should have worked>

Manual copying alone just won't work (on the same partition). I snipped the "don't use that" stuff out as it does you no good, the reason being that Sector-One of the HDD has the "basic" boot info and the Partition Table (indicating which one is Active and to be booted) and each Partition will have its own Boot code (for the brand of OS on it, if any). XP will barf if certain info is hosed as some info in the Partition Table is stored in the Registry. Better read up on that too (some info on that in the topic indicated).

Dell website for "Windows 98" drivers for your PC appears to show that you might have either/or/both of several pieces of hardware (Network and Video). In some cases it might have Integrated, in other cases it might have Add-in, or perhaps both. Suggest checking Device Manager for exactly what's there and act/install accordingly. Chipset drivers should always be installed first. As for other problems you should take a look at dencorso's Sticky List (includes cannie's), particularly the one about RAM. You might want to get the drivers from the manufacturer instead of Dell, as OEM's are notorious for providing outdated ones; e.g. I use Intel Chipset drivers and not the OEM-supplied. BTW, the 98-supplied Intel Chipset drivers are "not so hot" so definitely install the real 800-series ones (could be part of your problem).

FWIW, my secondary HDD is partitioned with 1st XP and 2nd 98SE (ref. the RAM Sticky for specs, I'm in there too). I set the primary HDD to "none" in the BIOS so the XP (NTFS format) "sees" itself as C-drive and "automagically" picks up other drive+partitions after-the-fact. Win98SE installation doesn't "see" XP (since NTFS). Had set partition-2 (primary not logical-in-extended) to "active" (with floppy), installed it and can boot to it (with appropriate "sticky" fixes). 3d partition is used for "shared data". I use NTFS for Windows to access the XP partition (an additional drive letter is assigned). I have to flip-flop the Active partition using a Floppy, the reason I suggested a Boot Loader of some sort (even if it's the XP one), which I haven't got around to doing...

addendum - If you look at how XP installed onto 2nd partition after 9x on 1st ("standard" method), you'll see that XP places certain Boot Loader files on the partition-1 and copies/extracts then replaces the Boot Sector (typically Sector 63) and uses that for dual-boot (not your intent, though). Loosely put, Pre-NTFS OS's will alway install on the Active Primary Partition, while NTFS and Linux OS's insist on being (at least the Boot Loader) on the 1st Primary Partition, regardless of Active Status. (-Corrections anyone?-)

One might assume you're new to all of this; read up, be careful, be prepared to restore the HDD while attempting this, and you'll be fine... Everyone will help you "get there from here" after you've found most answers to your questions.

(btw, great PC you inherited) This you know of - follow the yellow-brick-road

Edited by submix8c

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