fdv

Sorta like bootleg tape trading..

57 posts in this topic

...That's what this has come to.

The Backstory Of Recent Events

Tomcat76 took an extended leave of absence and although we know his name, we're unable to contact him. It's a wasted effort -- even emails we're SURE are also him get denied. In Tomcat's case, he was someone who I call "overdedicated" to the project. He was encouraged to spend some time outside, so to speak, and one day he finally did. He went from posting here every few hours to... just gone. In Tomcat's case, it was for the best.

TommyP caught a break when Tomcat was doing heavy development but when it got dumped back into his lap, it became another job taking up hours of his time and he got nothing for it. (And let's be serious -- forcing people to pay for it? How far would he get?) It wasn't the money anyway, it was the tremendous effort and being asked 20 or so times per week here and via private e-mail about use in a corporate environment. We've been over the software licensing issues time and time again; the most recent time, it resulted in a change of license (even though we were pretty clear that the first license, the GPL, explicitly disclaimed covering use as "beyond the scope" of the license).

Putting in time and effort is one thing; imagine having to patiently type replies to a dozen people a week who are, or want to, use HFSLIP in their workplace. Maybe Tom could have made the license extend to workplaces limited to three or four employees, or make users promise in blood to leave him alone, but he didn't. He wasn't worried just about lawsuits. Imagine if Corporation X lets IT Guy Joe Sixpack go and they want to know why Add/Remove programs has HFSLIP in it -- what is that? Maybe they're delighted! What's Tom supposed to do when they turn to him for support right here in MSFN?

He can refuse, sure, but at some point it gets to be too much. Microsoft can cover all of that. Tom isn't a professional software engineer, he's a hobbyist who makes software for OTHER hobbyists. HFSLIP quickly presented a scalability challenge with respect to it's creator. He's got a fairly demanding day job, a girlfriend, assorted esoteric hobbies (like building tube amplifiers), but HFSLIP took on a life of it's own. It was a combination of these things that led him to not only take a leave from MSFN for a while, but to pull the software and be "done" for good.

I barely have time anymore for support here, and in any case it's gotten way too complex for me to support. No one else stepped up to the plate after Tomcat76, there were petulant demands on Tom* and no pay, so the program is no longer available for download.

*Remember, what you see here in MSFN is the polite stuff. Imagine getting a dozen e-mails a week that are demanding in tone -- eventually, it will be beyond money, it will just p--- you off.

Tom's not naive; he knows he can only police this forum and the website, so HFSLIP will no longer be available at these locations. I personally will not be distributing it in accordance with his wishes. Forum posts will simply have the binary attachment removed (again, this is what he wants).

HFSLIP may be "around," but it no longer lives at this address.

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Sorry fdv,

though I know nothing about what happened and the people involved, the License of HFSLIP is clear enough, it's the Creative Commons one, and the first prompt is also clear enough:

ECHO ========TommyP's 2K3/XP/W2K/IE HOTFIX SLIPSTREAMER LICENSING AGREEMENT=========
ECHO.
Echo You are free
echo (1) to Share - to copy, distribute and transmit HFSLIP (the work)
echo (2) to Remix - to adapt the work
echo.
echo Under the following conditions:
echo (1) Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the
echo author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse
echo you or your use of the work).
echo (2) Noncommercial. You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
echo (3) Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may
echo distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to
echo this one.
echo.
echo For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license
echo terms of this work. The best way to do this is with a link to
echo http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/deed.en

So, what's the sense of "policing" this Forum (or the Website)? :unsure:

I mean, should I attach a copy of HFSLIP to any of my posts on MSFN would it be removed? :ph34r:

And on which basis? :w00t: (No, I am not going to break Rule #8, it's an hypothetical question ;))

HFSLIP is redistributable, no matter if the Author changed his mind later. :angel

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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HFSLIP is redistributable, no matter if the Author changed his mind later. :angel

jaclaz

Ok, if you decide to redistribute it, are you ready to help hundrends of users, answer their questions and develop the script to solve their problems???

And also if you change the license and permit the use to corporate enviroment are you ready to face the lawsuits from large companies in case something goes wrong?

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HFSLIP is redistributable, no matter if the Author changed his mind later. :angel

jaclaz

Ok, if you decide to redistribute it, are you ready to help hundrends of users, answer their questions and develop the script to solve their problems???

And also if you change the license and permit the use to corporate enviroment are you ready to face the lawsuits from large companies in case something goes wrong?

Thanks for the info. I can certainly sympathize with regards to some of the more petulant if not downright rude emails demanding support for HFSlip. It never cease to amaze me how demanding some people get even though they are getting the software free.

Nonetheless, I really do not see the point of deleting all the links. Just a simple message that HFSlip has ended and no longer supported will suffice will it not? Afterall, there is still demand for this utility. When I search the web for a copy of the latest beta, I even found Japanese websites for HFSlip! Still, it is the authors' decision whether they want to leave the links, or delete it, but I hope and the end of the day, TommyP will reverse his decision and leave the software on the site.

For all the prats that are rude demanding support, there are still good people here that support each other.

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:( Durn! Probably didn't even get the latest/lastest one...
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:( Durn! Probably didn't even get the latest/lastest one...

Oww, comeon! ;)

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=144214

@All

The point I was trying to raise is that while the Authors :thumbup have all the rights in the world to:

  • STOP supporting it
  • STOP developing it
  • CLOSE the related site

It seems to me:

  1. pointless to accurately remove the file(s) from everywhere.
  2. unmotivated to "police" MSFN Forums about a LEGALLY REDISTRIBUTABLE file (or threatening to do so)

The app is now in NO OFFICIAL SUPPORT status, fine, what's the problem? :w00t:

Ok, if you decide to redistribute it, are you ready to help hundrends of users, answer their questions and develop the script to solve their problems???

Redistributing, at least on my copy of the dictionary, mean "redistributing", NOT "redistributing AND supporting", nor "redistributing AND suporting AND developing".

And also if you change the license and permit the use to corporate enviroment are you ready to face the lawsuits from large companies in case something goes wrong?

Besides the above ("redistributing" does not mean "redistributing AND change it's license"), this cannot be done.

If you had actually READ the license, you would have seen that the clauses are transferrable.

HFSLIP (or a derived work) CANNOT be rightfully licensed commercially.

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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The app is now in NO OFFICIAL SUPPORT status, fine, what's the problem? :w00t:

Exactly, that hasn't stopped people from using Win 9x. :ph34r:

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I think now the project is abandoned HFSLIP should get a proper Open Source license. Tomcat76 and TommyP just don't understand how Open Source software works.

Edited by Acheron
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I totally agree with FDV. As far as just making HFSLIP an open source utility, please re-read jaclaz's post a few just above this one. He nailed it right on. Yes, that means you Ancheron. Open source and other licenses have been beaten to death on this hfslip subforum. It's been beaten to death on the nlite forum too. Usually it's people who want to use it for corporations/businesses. HFSLIP was written for the normal home user, who wants to reload his PC in a quick manner. The target audience usually does not care about licenses, because, well, he's just using it for his own use. The program was not written for the lazy sack of sh!t IT guy wants to cut time of reloading OSs. He's paid to reload OSs to proper way in accordance with Microsoft standards, which is the "legal" way of installing the OS.

For such a popular piece of software as everybody says, can you say not a single dime was donated in well over 2 years. Maintaining this for users who demand fixes for free just isn't fair. Hell, would anyone out there donate 20+ hours a week to help someone they don't know without? And do that without getting paid? Forget it! I'd rather do things around the house or continue building my home audio equipment.

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I'm sad to see this project reach the end. Too bad I didn't review the latest update to the site before uploading tommyp's update, maybe I could have argued about it :) Speaking of the site...what should it be now? Anything? Something?

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I mean, should I attach a copy of HFSLIP to any of my posts on MSFN would it be removed? :ph34r:

And on which basis? :w00t: (No, I am not going to break Rule #8, it's an hypothetical question ;))

HFSLIP is redistributable, no matter if the Author changed his mind later. :angel

jaclaz

Ah, a clever edit.

I hope I was clear on the not naive part.

It's why I put "like bootleg" trading.

It's out there and has a life of it's own. We know about other sites.

It just won't be in this neighborhood, unless its creator changes his mind. Tom's not going to haunt you in your dreams. But he's perfectly within his rights to stop distributing it himself, and the website and this forum is how he does that. No, the license has not changed from CC. Does it need to? Nope. By removing the binary, he's stopped his own distribution.

If you share the binary privately with your friends, that's all you.

The CC license does NOT mean that TommyP is forced to offer HFSLIP for download.

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While I'm sad to hear of tommyp's decision to stop support for this great program, I can fully understand his frustration. It's disheartening that people would take something that is meant for personal use and go against the author/creator's wishes. After all, this is tommyp's baby and if he doesn't want it used on commercial installations that is his right. I just wish people could have respected his wishes. Now, because of this we all lose.

tommyp, I want to thank you for all the hard work you put in to this project. Thank you for all the help you offered in making my slipstreamed installations working flawlessly. I will always be grateful for your courteous answers to my questions and helping solve my problems. My best to you in your future endeavors.

M2GD

Edited by My2GirlsDad
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Sad to see the project die...

I hope all you guys well.

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I am also sad to see it die. I didn't even know that donations were possible. If I knew, I surely would have donated something now and then. But I never saw anyone requesting donations. too bad...

In my own way, I also contributed to the project with extensive testing and bug squashing. This is very sad...

I would like to know if there's a possibility for someone to pick up where tommy left off...

c ya!

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Darn, I barely just got here and learning about this when I received a notification in email.

Sorry to see it go.

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