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scrapser

Win98 Installation Trouble (Slow Splash Screen)

40 posts in this topic

Thanks Steven and Arminius for your feedback (and to all others as well). Let me give you a little background on the history of this rig and how I managed my driver files when it was my primary computer.

On any of my setups I always store my driver files, data, and software patches and updates on a separate physical hard drive. I organized them under folders for each OS. So for example, I have a Win98 Backup folder and in it I have the various hardware manufacturers (Creative Labs, nVidia, etc.). The most recent graphics card driver I have from nVidia is 7.7.7.2 for the GTX7800 (dated 6/21/2005). I also have the original installation disk and documentation that came with the graphics card.

When I built this computer with the parts listed above in 2005, I used some of the hardware off my Gateway computer I bought in early 2000 (hard drives, keyboard, mouse, monitor, and soundcard). The Gateway computer came with WinXP Pro and had an nVidia card (the model ended with "TI" but I can't remember the number). I used System Commander 7 to set it up to dual boot Win98 and WinXP. I definitely set up the homebuild with WinXP and Win98 and everything worked. I do not remember experiencing these issues at all but by the same token, I also don't remember everything I did during the install so I'm not saying there weren't any tweaks needed. I just think the current issues would have triggered my memory if I experienced them before.

In 2007 I upgraded the mobo, ram, and CPU to use a socket 975 Intel Dual Core E6600 and also purchased a Geforce GTX 8800. I specifically remember that being the point where I was no longer able to use Win98 because the 8800 did not have Win98 drivers.

Anyway, my main point of all this is that is was working. But after 5 years I admit I don't remember all the little details. For the record, I'm pretty sure I installed WinXP first, then System Commander, then Win98. I have a set of flight sim controls from CH Products (all USB) and I distinctly remember setting them up because with Win98 you must install the control software without the devices connected, then reboot to get them recognized. With WinXP, they must be connected prior to installing the control software.

I will be tinkering today and will see what I can discover and report back later today or this evening with what I find and/or accomplish.

Thanks

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Okay, I have tried a few things.

The bootlog analyzer shows the lag to be either while loading C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS or Vxd. On the line that says "LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS" the duration value is 881.000 and the time is 19:06:39 but on the next entry (Loading Vxd = VMM) the time is 19:21:20. That is 19 seconds shy of 15 minutes. Both loads do succeed.

In the bootlog.txt file I find:

LOADING VXD = ndis2sup.vxd

LOADFAILED = ndis2sup.vxd

further down...

DEVICEINIT = VPD

DEVICEINITFAILED = VPD

further down...

INITCOMPLETE = SDVXD

INITCOMPLETEFAILED = SDVXD

I modified my CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files with the basic entries to free up conventional memory but I still get the "not enough conventional memory" when I try to install the Win98SE Updates CD.

I was thinking maybe my modern USB mouse was the source of the Infrared Device issue. I have a brand new Microsoft Optical Mouse that says it is compatible with Win98 and tried it using the PS2 adapter but again it makes no difference. In the Device Manager under System Devices, one Motherboard resources entry tagged (!) says, "This device is causing a resource conflict (Code 15). On the Resources tabpage it says, "Input/Output Range 0290 - 030F used by: Infrared PnP Serial Port (*PNP0510). Under Network Adapters it lists "Infrared PnP Serial Port (*PNP0510)". It says it is working properly and has no asterisk tag. The other Motherboard resources entry that is tagged (!) lists the Device Type as System Devices and says "the device is either not present, not working properly, or does not have all the drivers installed (Code 10)" and reports no conflicts on the Resources tabpage.

In the Win.ini file there was no entry for [VCache] so I could enter MaxFileCache = 524288 so I inserted it myself. It also makes no difference in behavior.

I tried booting in safe mode and device manager shows no conflicts even though it still takes 15 minutes to boot.

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....I used some of the hardware off my Gateway computer I bought in early 2000 (hard drives, keyboard, mouse, monitor, and soundcard). The Gateway computer came with WinXP Pro and had an nVidia card (the model ended with "TI" but I can't remember the number)....

Either you bought your Gateway in early 2002 or it came with 98SE. XP wasn't released until the last quarter of 2001. I don't mean to nitpick but my point is that your memory is flawed about what you did before. It happens to everybody at one time or another.

I remember something about that infrared thing myself on a Pentium 4 board I installed 98SE then ME on earlier this year. I did the things I mentioned in my previous post among others and it went away. I don't remember which exactly. :whistle: I think it may be 98's way of reporting on a motherboard resource it cannot accurately interpret because the technology is newer than 98 itself.

At this point I would suggest biting the bullet and buying a used Pentium 4 box which you know has drivers for 98SE. I think the Intel 865 chipset may have been the last by Intel to have chipset drivers for 98SE. The only thing to do is make sure that the motherboard components have drivers for 98SE as well.

You should be able to upgrade to a 3.0 GHz P4 though I found few benefits of going with a CPU that fast with 98 when a 2.4 GHz would serve just as well. The Intel 845 chipset is no slouch either. You should be able to get something decent for about $50 if you are a smart shopper, including a reasonable 98SE compatible graphics card for the games you intend to play.

Get yourself a nice 19 or 21 inch CRT monitor while you still can and enjoy. So many nice CRT monitors are being dumped and crushed for copper recovery these days even though they work perfectly well. It's kind of sad.

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I'd suggest eliminating all the potential issues you may have and a re-install. Use one of the IDE hard drives, take out one of the memory modules, restore the optimized defaults (perhaps disable SATA support), and do a clean install, then see where things are.

Oh yeah, use your CRT until you get other things figured out.

Edited by Steven W
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Thanks again for your suggestions. I do plan on literally starting from scratch and only using the absolute bare bones to install. I will also disconnect and reconnect all wires and components to make sure they are correct and seated properly.

Arminius,

I have Windows 98 (first edition). I also have a Windows 98 Second Edition Update CD which must be applied to an existing Win98 OS.

I bought a Gateway computer in early 2000 that had WinXP Pro (OEM disk) installed. Prior to that I had a Gateway computer with Windows 98 (OEM disk) installed. I later bought the UPDATES CD I mention above. These are the installation disks I am using now.

My first homebuilt was in May 2005 and it worked. Most of the hardware from that build is what I am using for this build project. Since then I have upgraded my primary computer twice (Core 2 E6600 in 2007 and Core i7 920 in late 2010).

The DFI utilites CD has nVidia nF4 chipset drivers for WinXP but nothing for Win98 or Win98SE. I don't recall trying to install them for my Win98 OS but do remember using them for the WinXP OS. The infrared device issue very well could have existed back then. I have a fuzzy memory of always seeing a couple exclamation points in the Device Manager for Win98 but don't remember any details beyond that. My gut tells me these issues are not causing my installation and boot problems.

I forgot to mention I took a look at virtual memory in Win98 yesterday. The C drive showed a very large number (6 digits) with a negative sign in front of it. The D drive (data backup) showed a 6 digit number smaller than the C drive (D hard drive is smaller than C) but did not have the negative sign. These appear in a drop down list that is disabled unless you uncheck the "Let Windows Manage Virtual Memory Automatically". I'm thinking there must be something wrong with the File System...maybe. The step that is taking 15 minutes to load during boot is the Loading Vxd = VMM step. The boot analyzer is a little confusing to read. The timestamp on the success line for "LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS" is 15 minutes earlier than the "LOADING Vxd = VMM" line. I interpret this as it taking the Vxd load 15 minutes to complete so perhaps the IFSHLP.SYS file is corrupt or something.

I have tried installing Win98 on my original 120 Gig IDE hard drive and a new 320 Gig SATA hard drive with a 125 Gig partition. The same behavior occurs on both so I don't think it's a hard drive issue.

When I try to install the graphics card driver off the CD that came with the card, it reports not being able to find a DLL file (sorry I didn't write it down but will if I see it again next time...it was something like NPA.DLL or NVA.DLL). I also have a half dozen saved driver updates. Some report the same problem and a couple say they cannot find any nVidia chip on the system.

When I try to install the UPDATE CD to convert Win98 to Win98SE, I always get a "not enough conventional memory" error. Never saw this before...ever.

Each time I install Win98 and look at the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files they are both empty. I'm not sure if that is normal or not as I don't remember what they looked like in the past after installing the OS.

Anyway, I will report the outcome later today and anything else I discover.

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I'd suggest eliminating all the potential issues you may have and a re-install. Use one of the IDE hard drives, take out one of the memory modules, restore the optimized defaults (perhaps disable SATA support), and do a clean install, then see where things are.

Oh yeah, use your CRT until you get other things figured out.

I looked at my BIOS but cannot find where to disable SATA. I'll keep looking and do a search online for the answer.

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Are you absolutely certain you have to install First Edition? The Second Edition update CD that I used to have would allow you to simply insert the FE CD at sometime during the install to prove that you're eligible to use the upgrade CD.

As for disabling SATA, it may not be possible. I don't think it should matter as long as you're using an IDE drive.

Edited by Steven W
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Are you absolutely certain you have to install First Edition? The Second Edition update CD that I used to have would allow you to simply insert the FE CD at sometime during the install to prove that you're eligible to use the upgrade CD.

As for disabling SATA, it may not be possible. I don't think it should matter as long as you're using an IDE drive.

I tried using the UPDATE disc. This is not an "UPGRADE" disc by the way. I bought it from Microsoft directly for less then $20 and it was mailed to me. It has its own product code on the case. On the front of the case in the upper left corner it says, "For users of Windows 98". In the middle of the label it says, "Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition Updates". At the bottom it says, "Includes system updates, Internet Explorer 5, Internet Connection Sharing, and more".

The readme file says it must be installed over an existing copy of Win98 (or Win95) but I could swear I had found a way online to fool it into thinking I had Windows installed on the computer so it would be a fresh install. The file also says it will not install over DOS. It does not have an autostart file. You must manual execute the setup file to get it started. When I do so with no windows installed, it says it cannot find windows so there is no way to start the install and use the earlier Win98 CD later to prove ownership.

I remember doing a trick where I created a "Windows" folder on the C drive and created a blank file with a specific name but lost that information. I think that trick was to fool the disk into think Win95 was already installed but I'm not positive. Wish I could find the trick again.

Edited by scrapser
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Disreguard the previous contents of this post, you have the Update CD, I had the Upgrade CD. So, I guess you have no choice but to install FE first. I bought mine quite a while after it had been out, so I guess MS just started charging less for the Upgrade CD.

Edited by Steven W
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Still having the same problem. I found an article online where someone reported the same problem trying to use the update CD to update Win98FE to Win98SE and was getting the "not enough conventional memory to check hard drives". The admin of the site told him:

"Setup was unable to run ScanDisk to check your hard drives. This could be because of low conventional memory or your disk contains errors that Scandisk cannot fix when run from Setup. To work around these errors, reboot your system to MS-DOS mode and run ScanDisk /all. Then, run Setup again. If Setup still fails, reboot to MS-DOS mode and run Scandisk /all /surface. This will take a little longer, but it will ensure your hard disks are in good shape. If, after running ScanDisk with these options, Setup still won't continue, you should run Setup /is to bypass ScanDisk."

For the heck of it I tried running "Setup /is" and got the update CD to finally run but it still bogs down at the splash screen during each installation restart. I think there must be something wrong with system memory or memory management (I'm not fluent on these things...just inferring things). One thing I noticed but haven't mentioned until now...during installation, I see at least three CMD windows popup in quick order and barely get to read them but they are all showing the path to the CD drive. I'm thinking the system memory has everything running so slow these windows are actually visible whereas in the past they would go by so quickly you don't see them.

I guess I will completely dismantle the entire computer and try cleaning all the contacts if that sounds like it might help.

Edited by scrapser
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So you now have Second Edition installed? If so I'd try do what I suggest previously, install 7-zip, get this download:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/nforce_udp_win9x_4.27

Save it to a new folder on the desktop, extract it's contents (Right-click, point to 7-zip--Extract files). Go into the device manager, look for stuff that has exclamation points, use the device manager and point to each of the six folders (the ones you just extracted) and see if Windows finds a suitable driver. (one of the folders is for Nvidia memory controllers).

I'm assuming this computer is getting connected, if not use another PC, download 7-zip and the above file and burn a CD.

Whether or not this works, look for anything labeled USB in the Device Manager, and choose Uninstall, Reboot, Go into the BIOS Setting and see if you can disable USB 2.0. Reboot see if things work better.

I understand this may not work, but it's worth a shot.

Edit: You may want to look for something like 'PCI Standard RAM Controller' in the device manager and even if it says it's working properly see if the INF in the MemCtl folder will update it.

Further Edit: This is old, but may provide some clues:

ftp://download.nvidia.com/Windows/nForce/1.05/nforce_win98se_1.05_install_guide.pdf

Edited by Steven W
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I looked at my BIOS but cannot find where to disable SATA. I'll keep looking and do a search online for the answer.

There may be no "disable SATA" option per se, rather the SATA channel will become disabled by selecting "Legacy IDE" or "PATA" only (the terminology varies) instead of enabling either of these two in addition to SATA. You should see an immediate change in the virtual memory dialogue box.

I really don't like installing 9x on very large partitions myself. I would suggest you go no larger than 32GB, get 98SE installed and working, and then use one of the free disk utilities to enlarge the partition if you must.

If you start over from scratch as I suspect you may have to, I suggest you try installing the large IDE update 243450 on 98FE before trying to update to 98SE.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/win98SE/Update/5638-6151/W98/EN-US/243450USA8.EXE

After you get 98SE installed I suggest installing 243450 again as 98SE and 98FE have different versions of the updated file inside the same installer. I also recommend installing the Windows IDE hard drive cache package 273017 for 98SE.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/win98SE/Update/11956/W98/EN-US/273017USA8.EXE

These updates may not help much with your problem but you seem to have several issues going on at the same time.

A bit of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP

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Arminius,

You just may have hit on the answer. When I last installed Win98 back when I was actually using it, I remember installing it on a small partition, then using the Partition Manager that's part of System Commander to expand the size back to what I wanted. I'm pretty sure I used a 20 gig partition and later expanded it to 40 gigs.

I have the same hard drives I was using back then installed in the box I'm setting up now. One is 120 gigs and the other is 80 gigs. I used the 80 gig for data backup and split the 120 into two partitions 80/40 (it's all coming back to me now). I put WinXP Pro on the 80 gig partition and Win98 on the 40 but had to start with a small partition first.

I'm at work and will have to wait until tonight to try this out! My face will be bright red if this was the culprit all along.

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Well I still have the same problem. I tried installing using one hard drive with a 20 gig partition, then again with an 8 gig partition. I have only one stick of ram and one hard drive, CRT monitor, and video card. The RAM stick is in the correct slot for this mobo.

I'm stumped. The reason I tried 8 gigs was because I remembered when I bought my Gateway computer with Win98, it arrived with only an 8 gig partition on the drive. I can't remember what I did to fix it, that was 13 years ago. I didn't buy System Commander 7 until 2000 when I bought a Gateway computer with WinXP Pro installed. My boss suggested getting System Commander when I told him I was hoping to find a way to install Win98 and dual boot.

I found a forum discussion where a person was reporting the same problem (splash screen seems to hang). I think he gave up before waiting to see if it would eventually finish booting and assumed it was frozen. Anyway, the responders all recommended upgrading to WinXP so the discussion fizzled.

I'm not sure what else I can try now.

When I ran the very first install, I used a WD SATA 320 gig drive with a 125 gig partition. I had my modern LCD monitor hooked up, too. This led me to think it was either a monitor or SATA drive issue. Since then I have tried both old IDE drives but not until tonight did I try a really small partition.

Perhaps there's something wrong with the hardware. All I can say is at one time I had Win98 (updated to Win98SE) installed on this mobo, RAM, HS, video and sound card. I also had an ethernet connection since it was my main computer. I can try disabling everything to do with the onboard LAN (and anything else...the board has an onboard sound module called, "Karajan"). Beyond that I'm at a complete loss.

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I have to apologize and thank everyone here who tried to help me get this problem resolved. I just did some research and tried to trigger my memory of the chain of events as I upgraded my computers over the years. One thing struck me...when I bought my current sound card. I know for a fact I never used it for Win98 because I bought it roughly 6 months after I built my first computer (the hardware I'm trying to set up now). I bought the hardware to build my first computer in May 2005 and bought the Creative Labs Sound Blaster Elite Pro in October 2005. This means I had Win98 and WinXP on my last Gateway and could never have had it installed on this hardware I'm trying to use.

Anyway, it was good of you to offer help. At least I have a new resource for other issues should they come up.

Thanks again folks! I think I'll ponder whether I want to go through the hurdles of collecting all the hardware I would need to set up Win98. For now I think I will take a breather.

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