[scrapser]

I'm resurrecting my old Win98 box (hardware) so I can play games that do not run in WinXP in compatibility mode and/or are too much for DOSBOX to handle. The quick way to describe this is I have all the hardware I used before and the installation disk. The only thing I changed was a new case, power supply, keyboard, mouse, and monitor. I'm using the exact same mobo, CPU, RAM, hard drive, CDROM, floppy, graphics and sound card that I used back in 2002. I also have the Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition Updates CD which I bought from Microsoft for something like $15 (can't really remember). The important thing is this CD is not an upgrade CD but an UPDATE CD. Between the time I last had Win98 installed and now, the computer was used by a friend of mine with WinXP installed on it. I should also say this is a computer I built using parts bought from NewEgg.

I can provide a detailed list of all hardware if it comes to that but I just wanted to get the ball rolling by describing the problem. During the installation process the computer reboots three times. Each time it reboots and reaches the point where the Windows 98 splash screen appears, the computer bogs down and it takes roughly 15 minutes for it to get past the splash screen. There's a progress bar of sorts that scrolls across the bottom of the splash screen from left to right and it moves to the right maybe two times a second during the entire time the splash screen is visible. This is the only evidence the computer is not completely frozen.

This same behavior also repeats once the installation is complete and I am simply booting the computer. It runs fine once the boot is finished and the shutdown is quick and smooth.

A second issue I have is running the Update CD. It may be related to the slow splash screen problem but that's just a guess. When I start the update CD, it analyzes my computer and stops with a message that I need to free up more conventional memory. I never had this happen either.

The computer has 1 gig of RAM (two 512 sticks). I tried installing with just one stick but it makes no difference. I should also add that I never had trouble before using all the RAM to install Win98 so I'm not sure if this is the problem or not.

I looked in the Device Manager and saw two "!" next to motherboard resources listings. That may be a clue as well.

I did not clear CMOS when I rebuilt the computer so that may also be something to look into. I thought I would start by stating some basic information and going from there. I'm hoping this is not an unheard of issue.

Lastly, I have a high end NEC 24" LCD monitor that has no Win98 drivers. I'm hoping there's a workaround for that as well but am saving it for once I solve the installation issues.

This is my first post on this forum so a big hello to all that read it.

Thanks

[Steven W]

I think some info on the Motherboard is the minimum someone would need to be of assistance.

BTW, to stop the Boot Logo open a Dos Prompt and type
"attrib -r -s -h c:\msdos.sys"
(without quotes), press Enter
type "notepad c:\msdos.sys"
(again no quotes)
Look for "Logo=1"
Change it to Logo=0
if the line's not there just add Logo=0
and, of course, save the file in notepad.

Making a backup of the file before modifying it might not be a bad idea either.

Oh yeah, it occurs to me that it may not be the logo that's slowing things down, might be what's happening in the background.

This post has been edited by Steven W: 20 June 2011 - 09:52 PM

[loblo]

I can think about three possible things that may slow down boot time considerably, faulty hardware, not properly installed, wrong, corrupted or conflicting drivers or boot drive with a bunch of very slow sectors where files required for boot are located.

By the looks of it, it seems more likely it is a driver issue and you should fiddle around to try to get those exclamation marks to go away in the device manager.

Also, enabling boot log and analyzing this with boot log analyzer might prove useful to figure out what's going on..

http://www.softpedia...-Analyzer.shtml

You should be able to rule out faulty hardware if successfully booting from a live XP or Linux CD at acceptable speed.

As for possible slow sectors you may want to test your drive with Victoria, either with the DOS version from some emergency/rescue boot CD or the Windows version from within Windows (unlike stated in the link it runs on Win 98, it just cannot use API mode but PIO mode only).

http://www.x-drivers...oria/10903.html

This post has been edited by loblo: 21 June 2011 - 02:20 AM

[scrapser]

Okay, here are important hardware details. I have included links to NewEgg that give full technical details even though the items are no longer available (nice touch on NewEgg's part I must say).

MOBO = DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 Ultra-D 939
DFI Motherboard

CPU = AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 San Diego 2.6GHz 1MB L2 Cache Socket 939
AMD CPU

RAM = OCZ Gold Series 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 500 (PC 4000) Dual Channel Kit
OCZ RAM

Hard Drive = Western Digital Caviar SE WD1200JBRTL 120GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache IDE Ultra ATA100 / ATA-6 3.5" Hard Drive
WD Hard Drive

Graphics = BFG Tech BFGR78256GTXOC GeForce 7800GTX 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 SLI Support Video Card
BFG Graphics Card

Sound Card = Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live! MP3 + 5.1 PCI
This is actually a brand new (box never opened) card I bought off eBay to replace my old Sound Blaster Live! Value which I had discarded years ago. The box indicates it is compatible with Win9X/2K/ME OS's.

Power Supply = SILVERSTONE DA1000 1000W ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Silverstone PSU

As to removing the splash screen from startup...I'm not sure how this would be holding up the boot process for 15+ minutes but what do I know?

I overclocked the RAM and CPU when this was my WinXP/Win98SE dual boot system. I then gave it to a friend who had their own copy of WinXP installed on the hard drive by a local computer shop. I do not know if they fooled with the BIOS during that time and I have not reset the BIOS since getting it back. Perhaps loading optimized defaults would be something to try. Just a thought.

I know the power supply is overkill. I replaced the PSU on my Win7/WinXP dual boot system with a 1200W Silverstone and thought I may as well use the DA1000 for this box.

Like I said earlier, I never experienced these issues back in the day and assumed reinstalling would be a snap. I still have the utilities disk that came with the motherboard (chipset drivers and such) but have not tried to install anything since I have this problem. Right now all I have is Win98 installed. I will be copying drivers (i.e., graphics card) for Win98 to my second hard drive so they will be available when the time comes. When I installed Win98 I did not select anything from Network, Online Services, Communications, or Accessibility categories so it does not recognize onboard LAN or Internet hardware.

I have to disconnect my primary computer and connect my Win98 box to try things out. I will do that and copy information from the Device Manager so I can include them here later on.

Thanks and I hope this helps get things started.

This post has been edited by scrapser: 21 June 2011 - 04:56 PM

[loblo]

scrapser, on 21 June 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

Thanks and I hope this helps get things started.

You've got everything you need to get started in the post I wrote above, if you don't understand something or need more details, then ask and someone will answer you.

As for the rest of what you wrote in your last post, yeah I think resetting the BIOS to default settings is certainly something to try.

Btw, are you sure you had chipset drivers installed on this board in the past? I am not aware there are any Win 9x compatible drivers in existence for nForce 4 boards.

Also, try to boot your system with the minimum possible hardware, eg, motherboard, graphic card, 1 RAM stick and the boot drive only and making sure everything is properly connected and see if the problem is still there.

This post has been edited by loblo: 21 June 2011 - 10:57 PM

[scrapser]

loblo, on 21 June 2011 - 10:47 PM, said:

scrapser, on 21 June 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

Thanks and I hope this helps get things started.

You've got everything you need to get started in the post I wrote above, if you don't understand something or need more details, then ask and someone will answer you.

As for the rest of what you wrote in your last post, yeah I think resetting the BIOS to default settings is certainly something to try.

Btw, are you sure you had chipset drivers installed on this board in the past? I am not aware there are any Win 9x compatible drivers in existence for nForce 4 boards.

Also, try to boot your system with the minimum possible hardware, eg, motherboard, graphic card, 1 RAM stick and the boot drive only and making sure everything is properly connected and see if the problem is still there.

I plan on doing all that you suggested but wanted to respond with details about my hardware first.

You're right to ask about the chipset drivers. It's been so long I can't remember what I did for the Win98 installation I had. I do remember downloading nForce drivers a few times. Perhaps it was for the XP installation I had (computer was set to dual boot using v-Com System Commander 7).

Another observation I made last night...in the Device Driver list I do not see anything for the monitor...not even the category. In the past I believe it would have the category with "Default Monitor" inside until I installed a monitor driver. I'm wondering if the monitor I have is causing this lagging issue. I turned off all the power saving features so the monitor/hard drives do not go to sleep...also no screen saver. Even so, once the computer has booted up and I let it sit for roughly 15 minutes, the screen goes black with just a blinking cursor. When I move the mouse it jumps to the hardware installation wizard to begin looking for a driver for the monitor.

The monitor is an NEC MultiSync LCD2490WUXi-BK. It's a high-end 24" monitor ($1100 two years ago). Of course I can get another monitor but was hoping I could tie the two boxes together and share the monitor, keyboard, and mouse (plus USB peripherals) using a KVM switch.

[loblo]

Your monitor might well be the cause then, perhaps you should try to connect another one more standard if you've got got one and see how it fares.

Anyway good luck with sorting this out.

[TmEE]

When you have a LAN card installed but no cable connected you get about 30 seconds longer boot becuase windows waits for IP form DHCP and waits until timeout which seems to be 30 seconds. IF you are not going to use internet etc. then disable LAN card for significantly faster boot.

[jaclaz]

TmEE, on 22 June 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

When you have a LAN card installed but no cable connected you get about 30 seconds longer boot becuase windows waits for IP form DHCP and waits until timeout which seems to be 30 seconds. IF you are not going to use internet etc. then disable LAN card for significantly faster boot.

Won't setting it to manual IP addresses solve the problem as well?

jaclaz

[scrapser]

I will be disabling unused hardware in BIOS. Right now I'm working on getting an old CRT monitor to test the theory that this behavior is stemming from trying to use my modern LCD monitor. Last night I tried a few things. I discovered if I go through the Add New Hardware wizard for monitors, it finally installs the Windows Default Monitor which you normally see right away after installing the OS. Once I installed it however, instead of seeing the standard VGA monitor listed, I see my monitor by name. But it still takes a little over 15 minutes to boot. I contacted NEC about a Win98 solution but they replied they only have modern drivers going back to 2006 for WinXP and above. I tried installing that hoping it would work. The installation reported success but upon reboot the lag was still there plus the Add New Hardware wizard kicked off automatically asking for the installation disk for my monitor. I tried installing the same driver again and ended up with two listings for it in Device Manager.

With nothing to lose I tried installing my graphics card driver (I saved several release from the early 2000's). Some of them reported they were unable to detect any nVidia devices...others reported being unable to find certain DLL files and aborted the install.

I'm working on getting an old CRT monitor to test whether all this trouble is due to the modern LCD monitor. It seems like the best first thing to work on. I hope to have one today or by the weekend. I'll report my findings.

[TmEE]

15 minutes... that makes me think of bad sectors on the HDD. Does SMART say anything around reallocated sectors etc. ? Have you tried Scandisking the drive (works wonders on XP machines with slow/no boot) ?

That GFX card works fine in some other machine ?

jaclaz, on 22 June 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Won't setting it to manual IP addresses solve the problem as well?

It should solve that part, but if you're not going to have network / internet you're better off with no drivers active... less drivers, more RAM, faster boot

[scrapser]

TmEE, on 23 June 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

15 minutes... that makes me think of bad sectors on the HDD. Does SMART say anything around reallocated sectors etc. ? Have you tried Scandisking the drive (works wonders on XP machines with slow/no boot) ?

That GFX card works fine in some other machine ?

jaclaz, on 22 June 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Won't setting it to manual IP addresses solve the problem as well?

It should solve that part, but if you're not going to have network / internet you're better off with no drivers active... less drivers, more RAM, faster boot

The 15 minute lag occurs with three different hard drives that I have tried (2 IDE, 1 SATA). The graphics card was working fine when I dismantled the old computer that had WinXP installed. I'm pretty sure it's still working okay. If necessary, I can replace it off eBay...there are actually two brand new cards on sale there now.

Today I was given a brand new, never opened, 15" color CRT monitor. I will test tonight and if everything works...I will buy a larger CRT monitor and be happy that's all the trouble was.

[scrapser]

Well, the monitor didn't make any difference. Win98 recognized it and I installed the driver in the hardware wizard but no joy. Now I will proceed to try the other suggestions to help identify the problem.

A few things I can report....

1. There are two "motherboard resources" with exclamation point tags. One says there is either a missing driver or it cannot be found. The other says there's a conflict and is described as a PNP infrared device. The only thing I can think of that has infrared is my CD drive. It is not from my original setup but is IDE (Sony CDRW/DVDR that I had kicking around). I just now realized this. Perhaps this is the problem. I don't think DVD was available for Win98.

2. I tried to install the graphics card driver but it reports it cannot find a certain DLL and terminates. I will document the exact message the next time I have it booted up. Maybe there's a problem with the graphics card and Windows does not install the DLL as a result. Just a guess.

I will set up the bootlog and hopefully that will be able to shed more light on this whole thing.

[Steven W]

scrapser said:

I don't think DVD was available for Win98.

Think again. From what reading I've done, the Nforce4 ultra chipset is supposedly incompatible with Win98. I'm not saying that it's impossible to get working with 98, but I find it difficult to believe that, in the past, you simply ran the installation and it just worked. That said, I note some of the specs match the Nforce3, and drivers are available for Windows 98:

http://www.nvidia.co..._udp_win9x_4.27

I recommend downloading and extracting with 7-zip (Right-click and choose 'Extract Files') and using the device manager to update drivers pointing it to the various folders (there's 6 in the extracted contents).

Pasted below are the content of Readme.txt from the extracted file:

Quote

This nForce Win9x driver package contains the below components:

Audio driver version 4.42
Audio utility version 4.44
Ethernet driver version 4.33
GART driver version 3.77 (WHQL)
Memory controller driver version 3.38 (WHQL) with updated uninstaller files
SMBus driver version 4.04 (WHQL) with updated uninstaller files
Installer version 4.45

[Arminius]

scrapser, on 24 June 2011 - 05:44 PM, said:

A few things I can report....

1. There are two "motherboard resources" with exclamation point tags. One says there is either a missing driver or it cannot be found. The other says there's a conflict and is described as a PNP infrared device. The only thing I can think of that has infrared is my CD drive. It is not from my original setup but is IDE (Sony CDRW/DVDR that I had kicking around). I just now realized this. Perhaps this is the problem. I don't think DVD was available for Win98.

First of all, 98 recognizes DVD drives just fine.

I would be willing to bet one of those "motherboard resources" is for USB 2.0 for which there are unofficial drivers.

If you are using an IDE hard drive I would suggest disabling SATA support in the BIOS.

[scrapser]

Thanks Steven and Arminius for your feedback (and to all others as well). Let me give you a little background on the history of this rig and how I managed my driver files when it was my primary computer.

On any of my setups I always store my driver files, data, and software patches and updates on a separate physical hard drive. I organized them under folders for each OS. So for example, I have a Win98 Backup folder and in it I have the various hardware manufacturers (Creative Labs, nVidia, etc.). The most recent graphics card driver I have from nVidia is 7.7.7.2 for the GTX7800 (dated 6/21/2005). I also have the original installation disk and documentation that came with the graphics card.

When I built this computer with the parts listed above in 2005, I used some of the hardware off my Gateway computer I bought in early 2000 (hard drives, keyboard, mouse, monitor, and soundcard). The Gateway computer came with WinXP Pro and had an nVidia card (the model ended with "TI" but I can't remember the number). I used System Commander 7 to set it up to dual boot Win98 and WinXP. I definitely set up the homebuild with WinXP and Win98 and everything worked. I do not remember experiencing these issues at all but by the same token, I also don't remember everything I did during the install so I'm not saying there weren't any tweaks needed. I just think the current issues would have triggered my memory if I experienced them before.

In 2007 I upgraded the mobo, ram, and CPU to use a socket 975 Intel Dual Core E6600 and also purchased a Geforce GTX 8800. I specifically remember that being the point where I was no longer able to use Win98 because the 8800 did not have Win98 drivers.

Anyway, my main point of all this is that is was working. But after 5 years I admit I don't remember all the little details. For the record, I'm pretty sure I installed WinXP first, then System Commander, then Win98. I have a set of flight sim controls from CH Products (all USB) and I distinctly remember setting them up because with Win98 you must install the control software without the devices connected, then reboot to get them recognized. With WinXP, they must be connected prior to installing the control software.

I will be tinkering today and will see what I can discover and report back later today or this evening with what I find and/or accomplish.

Thanks

[scrapser]

Okay, I have tried a few things.

The bootlog analyzer shows the lag to be either while loading C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS or Vxd. On the line that says "LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS" the duration value is 881.000 and the time is 19:06:39 but on the next entry (Loading Vxd = VMM) the time is 19:21:20. That is 19 seconds shy of 15 minutes. Both loads do succeed.

In the bootlog.txt file I find:

LOADING VXD = ndis2sup.vxd
LOADFAILED = ndis2sup.vxd

further down...

DEVICEINIT = VPD
DEVICEINITFAILED = VPD

further down...

INITCOMPLETE = SDVXD
INITCOMPLETEFAILED = SDVXD


I modified my CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files with the basic entries to free up conventional memory but I still get the "not enough conventional memory" when I try to install the Win98SE Updates CD.

I was thinking maybe my modern USB mouse was the source of the Infrared Device issue. I have a brand new Microsoft Optical Mouse that says it is compatible with Win98 and tried it using the PS2 adapter but again it makes no difference. In the Device Manager under System Devices, one Motherboard resources entry tagged (!) says, "This device is causing a resource conflict (Code 15). On the Resources tabpage it says, "Input/Output Range 0290 - 030F used by: Infrared PnP Serial Port (*PNP0510). Under Network Adapters it lists "Infrared PnP Serial Port (*PNP0510)". It says it is working properly and has no asterisk tag. The other Motherboard resources entry that is tagged (!) lists the Device Type as System Devices and says "the device is either not present, not working properly, or does not have all the drivers installed (Code 10)" and reports no conflicts on the Resources tabpage.

In the Win.ini file there was no entry for [VCache] so I could enter MaxFileCache = 524288 so I inserted it myself. It also makes no difference in behavior.

I tried booting in safe mode and device manager shows no conflicts even though it still takes 15 minutes to boot.

[Arminius]

scrapser, on 25 June 2011 - 09:11 AM, said:

....I used some of the hardware off my Gateway computer I bought in early 2000 (hard drives, keyboard, mouse, monitor, and soundcard). The Gateway computer came with WinXP Pro and had an nVidia card (the model ended with "TI" but I can't remember the number)....

Either you bought your Gateway in early 2002 or it came with 98SE. XP wasn't released until the last quarter of 2001. I don't mean to nitpick but my point is that your memory is flawed about what you did before. It happens to everybody at one time or another.

I remember something about that infrared thing myself on a Pentium 4 board I installed 98SE then ME on earlier this year. I did the things I mentioned in my previous post among others and it went away. I don't remember which exactly. I think it may be 98's way of reporting on a motherboard resource it cannot accurately interpret because the technology is newer than 98 itself.

At this point I would suggest biting the bullet and buying a used Pentium 4 box which you know has drivers for 98SE. I think the Intel 865 chipset may have been the last by Intel to have chipset drivers for 98SE. The only thing to do is make sure that the motherboard components have drivers for 98SE as well.

You should be able to upgrade to a 3.0 GHz P4 though I found few benefits of going with a CPU that fast with 98 when a 2.4 GHz would serve just as well. The Intel 845 chipset is no slouch either. You should be able to get something decent for about $50 if you are a smart shopper, including a reasonable 98SE compatible graphics card for the games you intend to play.

Get yourself a nice 19 or 21 inch CRT monitor while you still can and enjoy. So many nice CRT monitors are being dumped and crushed for copper recovery these days even though they work perfectly well. It's kind of sad.

[Steven W]

I'd suggest eliminating all the potential issues you may have and a re-install. Use one of the IDE hard drives, take out one of the memory modules, restore the optimized defaults (perhaps disable SATA support), and do a clean install, then see where things are.

Oh yeah, use your CRT until you get other things figured out.

This post has been edited by Steven W: 26 June 2011 - 06:50 AM

[scrapser]

Thanks again for your suggestions. I do plan on literally starting from scratch and only using the absolute bare bones to install. I will also disconnect and reconnect all wires and components to make sure they are correct and seated properly.

Arminius,
I have Windows 98 (first edition). I also have a Windows 98 Second Edition Update CD which must be applied to an existing Win98 OS.

I bought a Gateway computer in early 2000 that had WinXP Pro (OEM disk) installed. Prior to that I had a Gateway computer with Windows 98 (OEM disk) installed. I later bought the UPDATES CD I mention above. These are the installation disks I am using now.

My first homebuilt was in May 2005 and it worked. Most of the hardware from that build is what I am using for this build project. Since then I have upgraded my primary computer twice (Core 2 E6600 in 2007 and Core i7 920 in late 2010).

The DFI utilites CD has nVidia nF4 chipset drivers for WinXP but nothing for Win98 or Win98SE. I don't recall trying to install them for my Win98 OS but do remember using them for the WinXP OS. The infrared device issue very well could have existed back then. I have a fuzzy memory of always seeing a couple exclamation points in the Device Manager for Win98 but don't remember any details beyond that. My gut tells me these issues are not causing my installation and boot problems.

I forgot to mention I took a look at virtual memory in Win98 yesterday. The C drive showed a very large number (6 digits) with a negative sign in front of it. The D drive (data backup) showed a 6 digit number smaller than the C drive (D hard drive is smaller than C) but did not have the negative sign. These appear in a drop down list that is disabled unless you uncheck the "Let Windows Manage Virtual Memory Automatically". I'm thinking there must be something wrong with the File System...maybe. The step that is taking 15 minutes to load during boot is the Loading Vxd = VMM step. The boot analyzer is a little confusing to read. The timestamp on the success line for "LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS" is 15 minutes earlier than the "LOADING Vxd = VMM" line. I interpret this as it taking the Vxd load 15 minutes to complete so perhaps the IFSHLP.SYS file is corrupt or something.

I have tried installing Win98 on my original 120 Gig IDE hard drive and a new 320 Gig SATA hard drive with a 125 Gig partition. The same behavior occurs on both so I don't think it's a hard drive issue.

When I try to install the graphics card driver off the CD that came with the card, it reports not being able to find a DLL file (sorry I didn't write it down but will if I see it again next time...it was something like NPA.DLL or NVA.DLL). I also have a half dozen saved driver updates. Some report the same problem and a couple say they cannot find any nVidia chip on the system.

When I try to install the UPDATE CD to convert Win98 to Win98SE, I always get a "not enough conventional memory" error. Never saw this before...ever.

Each time I install Win98 and look at the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files they are both empty. I'm not sure if that is normal or not as I don't remember what they looked like in the past after installing the OS.

Anyway, I will report the outcome later today and anything else I discover.