Jump to content

Welcome to MSFN Forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account


Photo

On Bootable CD's Floppy Emulation

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
101 replies to this topic

#1
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

If it were possible to create bootable CDs/DVDs with the bootable part >2.88MB, e.g. 120MB, the size of LS-120 diskette images ... but that would be another project.

The Bootable part of a CD can be made up to 36MB when emulating a Floppy (A:) or any size when emulating a Hard Disk (C:).

Edited by rloew, 12 July 2011 - 11:58 PM.

Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.


How to remove advertisement from MSFN

#2
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,040 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

If it were possible to create bootable CDs/DVDs with the bootable part >2.88MB, e.g. 120MB, the size of LS-120 diskette images ... but that would be another project.

For the record it is very possible, just use El-Torito "Hard disk emulation" (instead of "Floppy emulation" or "No emulation").
Or you mean a super-floppy format?
Maybe one can use the Hard disk emulation with a "dual-mode" MBR/Bootsector like the makebootFAT one. :unsure:

@rloew
Which media type do you need for a super-floppy larger than the 2.88 Mb?
Standard ones are:
  • 0x00 - No Emulation
  • 0x01 - 1.2 Mb floppy
  • 0x02 - 1.44 diskette
  • 0x03 - 2.88 diskette
  • 0x04 - Hard disk emulation

@Multibooter, sorry for the OT. :ph34r: If you are interested in the matter can you start a new topic "CD related"?
@rloew, maybe we can continue this interesting discussion on the above new thread?

jaclaz

#3
dencorso

dencorso

    Adiuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,782 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

@Multibooter: Would you please attach a zipped WinImage .IMA of a blank, fresh from format, 32MB floppy?
That would be interesting to study and can be useful, inclusive as a staring point to creating the 36MB floppy image RLoew mentioned. Thanks in advance.

#4
Multibooter

Multibooter

    Friend of MSFN

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 896 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Would you please attach a zipped WinImage .IMA of a blank, fresh from format, 32MB floppy?
That would be interesting to study and can be useful, inclusive as a staring point to creating the 36MB floppy image RLoew mentioned. Thanks in advance.

Hi dencorso,
I first formatted with SuperWriter32 -> Tool -> FD32MB Format a 1.44MB floppy disk to 32MB. I gave it the volume label "MSFN_ORG".
I then ran SuperWriter32 -> Tool -> DiskCopy, with the freshly-formatted 32MB floppy in the LS-240 drive.
When SuperWriter32 prompted to insert the target diskette, I made a copy of the temporary file Fd-32Img.dat, then cancelled the DiskCopy.
(see also my posting #24 http://www.msfn.org/...post__p__970671 )

I have attached a rared up copy of this temporary image file created by SuperWriter32. HTH.

Attached Files


Edited by Multibooter, 13 July 2011 - 01:49 PM.


#5
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

@rloew
Which media type do you need for a super-floppy larger than the 2.88 Mb?
Standard ones are:

  • 0x00 - No Emulation
  • 0x01 - 1.2 Mb floppy
  • 0x02 - 1.44 diskette
  • 0x03 - 2.88 diskette
  • 0x04 - Hard disk emulation

0x03 allows up to 36MB
0x02 allows up to 18MB
0x01 allows up to 15MB

@Multibooter, sorry for the OT. :ph34r: If you are interested in the matter can you start a new topic "CD related"?
@rloew, maybe we can continue this interesting discussion on the above new thread?

Thread not yet in existence.
Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#6
dencorso

dencorso

    Adiuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,782 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Thread not yet in existence.

Now it is! :D

I hadn't realized that WinImage is able to deal with sparse images (images that omit almost all zeroed out sectors), so it was a pleasant surprise when it dawned on me the image Multibooter uploaded is a sparse one. :thumbup
Of course I should have noticed that it was too small to be a byte-by-byte image, but I actually only noticed it on opening that image in WinHex. That's good news! :yes:

#7
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,040 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

0x03 allows up to 36MB
0x02 allows up to 18MB
0x01 allows up to 15MB

I don't want to be a nuisance (or not more than usual ;)) but could you share:
  • the EXACT size in bytes of those?
  • an example mkisofs command line to build such a super-floppy .iso?

(or some reference to the above if available) :)

Attached is an image of a real unusual superfloppy I've crated some time ago... It can be made bootable, of course. And when transferred to a physical Zip100, after running SYS.COM on it, it realy does boot OK (I did the test).

Any reason for the 32K sized clusters? :dubbio:
It should be 2K:
http://support.micro...kb/140365/en-us
and it really should be FAT16.
Or am I missing something?


jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 14 July 2011 - 04:19 AM.


#8
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag


0x03 allows up to 36MB
0x02 allows up to 18MB
0x01 allows up to 15MB

I don't want to be a nuisance (or not more than usual ;)) but could you share:
  • the EXACT size in bytes of those?
  • an example mkisofs command line to build such a super-floppy .iso?

(or some reference to the above if available) :)


0x03: 1024*2*36 * 512 = 37,748,736
0x02: 1024*2*18 * 512 = 18,874,368
0x01: 1024*2*15 * 512 = 15,728,640

I have never used mkisofs, so I have no idea what it's syntax is.

Edited by dencorso, 15 July 2011 - 07:02 PM.
Moved part of content to new Supperfloppy thread

Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#9
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

@rloew: If you don't use mkisofs, what do you use to create a .iso?

jaclaz

After crashing Nero with some very long Directories, I wrote my own set of CD Writers / ISO Builders. Adding El Torito support was simple. A manual option lets me force Type 0x03 rather than 0x04 for the Boot Image when using Images between 2.88MB and 36MB.
Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#10
dencorso

dencorso

    Adiuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,782 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Here is my first attempt at creating a 36 MiB image, as per RLoew's specification, and my first attempt at a sparse image. I think I did it correctly, but please do verify it. WinImage loads it OK. It's a 4 kiB cluster FAT-16 filesystem, which follows closely Multibooter's original 32 MiB image. It should be straightforward to add zeroes to create a full image, if necessary.

Attached Files



#11
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,040 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Something has got lost in the movements forward and back of the posts between the two three topics.
Just for the record and for reference, here is the "Superfloppy one":
http://www.msfn.org/...d-their-images/
And here is the "LS-120" one:
http://www.msfn.org/...-win98-and-dos/

This (partly) remained on the "wrong" thread:
http://www.msfn.org/...es/page__st__11


@rloew
If you don't use mkisofs, what do you use to create a .iso?

After crashing Nero with some very long Directories, I wrote my own set of CD Writers / ISO Builders. Adding El Torito support was simple. A manual option lets me force Type 0x03 rather than 0x04 for the Boot Image when using Images between 2.88MB and 36MB.

I see.
Is this app (or set of apps) available?
If yes, can you post a link to it?
Or is it for "private use"?
If yes, can you attach a couple of generated (empty, or with a few redistributable files in them) .iso's?

Hex editing a built .iso to set a byte to 0x03 instead of 0x04 is not a problem, but I would like to have an "universal" solution, such as mkisofs may provide.

@dencorso
Since you are also on this band-wagon ;) and you are in the "make queer filesystems trade", can you prepare three empty superfloppy images sized EXACTLY:

0x03: 1024*2*36 * 512 = 37,748,736
0x02: 1024*2*18 * 512 = 18,874,368
0x01: 1024*2*15 * 512 = 15,728,640

I seemingly cannot download the image you posted, but common sense tell's me that no matter how much sparse you made it, it cannot be 708 bytes... :w00t: (an upload problem? :ph34r:) ->correction, I managed to download it, now what do you propose to "un-sparse" it? :unsure:
BTW, it should not be a "sparse" image, but rather a "truncated"one.
I would use DCOPYNT ;):
http://www.winimage.....php?f=3&t=3429
http://users.pandora...plications.html

In any case a "normal, non-sparse, non-truncated" image, if empty, will compress in 7z to a few thousands byte....


I will gladly do the experiments with mkisofs to reproduce.....

@all
Only seemingly off-topic, I find this simplified approach very, very smart:
http://reboot.pro/9916/page__st__28
the whole thread may contain useful info:
http://reboot.pro/9916/

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 16 July 2011 - 11:07 AM.


#12
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag



@rloew
If you don't use mkisofs, what do you use to create a .iso?

After crashing Nero with some very long Directories, I wrote my own set of CD Writers / ISO Builders. Adding El Torito support was simple. A manual option lets me force Type 0x03 rather than 0x04 for the Boot Image when using Images between 2.88MB and 36MB.

I see.
Is this app (or set of apps) available?
If yes, can you post a link to it?
Or is it for "private use"?
If yes, can you attach a couple of generated (empty, or with a few redistributable files in them) .iso's?

RFDISK and RFORMAT are already on my Website. These are used to Create and Populate the Bootable Image.
Partition Imagers are everywhere.
I didn't Package my CD/DVD Utilities for sale as I had not seen any particular interest in their added features. People seemed happy with what they have.
I'm not sure what the value of an Empty ISO is. It will just attempt to boot an empty Partition and fail. You still need to populate the Bootable Image and probably the rest of the CD as well.
In any case dencorso is well on the way to creating one.

@dencorso: Bootable Floppy Images need to be FAT12. Otherwise your new Image is fine.

Edited by rloew, 16 July 2011 - 01:04 PM.

Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#13
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,040 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

I'm not sure what the value of an Empty ISO is. It will just attempt to boot an empty Partition and fail. You still need to populate the Bootable Image and probably the rest of the CD as well.

It would be a start, to find a way to reproduce the three .iso's easily (with a populated image).
If you could create three .iso's with the given superfloppy sizes and freedos it would be perfect. :thumbup
If you check the given before link:
http://reboot.pro/9916/page__st__28
you will see that using the simple, alternate approach, and as long as we want to only populate the superfloppy image, we can simply use the "header" of the .iso file in conjunction with a "populated image". ;)

The "rest of the CD" we will find later a way to populate, if we can reproduce the "header" with mkisofs + (if needed) a few hex edits via batch, rest of the CD should be a "piece of cake" :).

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 16 July 2011 - 01:13 PM.


#14
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag


I'm not sure what the value of an Empty ISO is. It will just attempt to boot an empty Partition and fail. You still need to populate the Bootable Image and probably the rest of the CD as well.

It would be a start, to find a way to reproduce the three .iso's easily (with a populated image).
If you could create three .iso's with the given superfloppy sizes and freedos it would be perfect. :thumbup
If you check the given before link:
http://reboot.pro/9916/page__st__28
you will see that using the simple, alternate approach, and as long as we want to only populate the superfloppy image, we can simply use the "header" of the .iso file in conjunction with a "populated image". ;)

The "rest of the CD" we will find later a way to populate, if we can reproduce the "header" with mkisofs + (if needed) a few hex edits via batch, rest of the CD should be a "piece of cake" :).

jaclaz

For me, populating the Boot Image and the rest of the CD is the major part of the task. Extraction and Burning are straightforward.
There is no particular reason to make three different sizes as Type 0x03 can handle anything from 36KiB to 36MiB.
I usually create an Image appropriate for the amount of actual data I need on the Bootable Part and process it accordingly.
Without custom scripts, Freedos is not going to do anything once it is loaded. You might as well just stick in a Floppy.

Creating a "header" that includes the El Torito Header will require a number of Patches if you start Populating the rest of the CD/DVD. I could do it. Maybe you could do it. How many others do you think could do it. A Program would need to be written to automate the Process. Sounds like an awful lot of work to avoid buying my tools.
Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#15
LoneCrusader

LoneCrusader

    Resistere pro causa resistentiam.

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 803 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

I didn't Package my CD/DVD Utilities for sale as I had not seen any particular interest in their added features. People seemed happy with what they have.

A quick question/observation... that has the potential to make this get off topic AGAIN... :ph34r:

Do your/can your CD/DVD utilities work with Blu-Ray images/devices? I know Multibooter was having burn-quality issues during his tests, of course it is still unknown whether it was due to software, hardware, or media quality...

In the event it is software related, your solutions might end up being the only "quality" Blu-Ray burning application available for Windows 9x...

#16
dencorso

dencorso

    Adiuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,782 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Something has got lost in the movements forward and back of the posts between the two three topics.
[...]
This one(partly) remained on the "wrong" thread.

Thanks! Of course, the link is now changed. I'm working at it.
Now, you, of all people, should now better than using "friendly names" in giving links... :whistle:
Next time, please do it by post ID number. Of course, I reckon not even post IDs would hold, in this case, since I'm splitting posts. :ph34r:

[...]I managed to download it, now what do you propose to "un-sparse" it? :unsure:

Use BXIMAGE.EXE from Mtools for Bochs to create an all-zero file of the right size, then:
copy sparse.ima + zeroblock.ima /b /v
As I said before, should be a piece of cake. :D

Now, I'll concentrate in:
0x03: 1024*2*36 * 512 = 37,748,736
When we have it and test it OK, I can create the other two as well.
Just for the record, my images are created by hand, and I brush every single bit twice, before adding it. :)
It also means threre's ample space for things to go wrong, too, so always check them for correctness, please. :ph34r:

#17
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag


I didn't Package my CD/DVD Utilities for sale as I had not seen any particular interest in their added features. People seemed happy with what they have.

A quick question/observation... that has the potential to make this get off topic AGAIN... :ph34r:

Do your/can your CD/DVD utilities work with Blu-Ray images/devices? I know Multibooter was having burn-quality issues during his tests, of course it is still unknown whether it was due to software, hardware, or media quality...

In the event it is software related, your solutions might end up being the only "quality" Blu-Ray burning application available for Windows 9x...

I only set up a Blu-Ray Drive recently so I have not added the necessary code for burning Blu-Ray disks.
My builder code does not currently support UDF as it was designed for Data rather than Video so that may be another issue if not just burning images.
Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#18
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,040 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
I don't get it :(:

I didn't Package my CD/DVD Utilities for sale as I had not seen any particular interest in their added features. People seemed happy with what they have.

Sounds like an awful lot of work to avoid buying my tools.


Are the complete set of utilities (and instructions) to create such a .iso available or not?
Or are they available only for sale?

I guess that noone will ever be willing to buy your tools unless they know they do exist and what can be done with them. :angel

For the record, my original idea was that of using, just like we have now for 1.2, 1.44 and 2.88 Mb floppies a whole set of "increased size" floppies of "fixed size", like the mentioned here:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=11096
Something along the lines of:
3840 
5760
8100
...
....
36 Mb


@dencorso
Your method, just like mine, tells me (if it was needed) that you are using a truncated image, and not a sparse one.
The (small) advantage of DCOPYNT is that you can avoid making the subtraction and just supply the geometry of the target image, 1024*2*36.
Another method would be using the dsfok package:
fsz full36Mb.img 37748736
dsfi full36Mb.img 0 0 Fd-36Img.IMA
The "full" image compresses in 7-zip to 6035 bytes.
Do you think, for the sake of saving 6035-708=5327 bytes of bandwidth, that using the truncated image is convenient? :whistle:

#19
dencorso

dencorso

    Adiuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,782 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

I loved DCopyNT! :wub:
I didn't know it. Thanks a lot! :thumbup
Yes, I agree the image is truncated, not sparse.
And, since I've created the full image, while testing DCopyNT, the image attachement is updated.
I was involved with too many tasks all at the same time, so I was unable, at first, to follow all the links you've provided.
Well, now I'm gonna grab some sleep. Tonight I'll probably add the required FAT-12 36 MiB image to this thread.
You rock! :yes:

#20
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

I don't get it :(:


I didn't Package my CD/DVD Utilities for sale as I had not seen any particular interest in their added features. People seemed happy with what they have.

I developed the utilities years ago.
This thread is 4 days old.
This is the first I have seen any interest beyond the standard bootable CD floppy emulation that can be handled with existing tools.


Sounds like an awful lot of work to avoid buying my tools.


Are the complete set of utilities (and instructions) to create such a .iso available or not?
Or are they available only for sale?

The utilities are complete. Some are already on my Website. I would need to write instructions for the rest.

I guess that noone will ever be willing to buy your tools unless they know they do exist and what can be done with them. :angel

Is there any interest in them, to justify packaging them?
Or are you just interested in a probably rather tedious workaround.
Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#21
dencorso

dencorso

    Adiuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,782 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

I use both Nero 6.6 and UltraISO. I might be intersted if it gives me fine control to build unusual bootable .ISOs (as you said it does). I don't see how I can use a 36 MiB image with either Nero or UltraISO. However it'd be a bonus if it does run both on 9x/ME and XP, although a DOS only program would be welcome too.

#22
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

I use both Nero 6.6 and UltraISO. I might be intersted if it gives me fine control to build unusual bootable .ISOs (as you said it does). I don't see how I can use a 36 MiB image with either Nero or UltraISO. However it'd be a bonus if it does run both on 9x/ME and XP, although a DOS only program would be welcome too.

Who said Nero supports non-standard bootable ISOs?
Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#23
dencorso

dencorso

    Adiuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,782 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Who said Nero supports non-standard bootable ISOs?

Nobody, me included. I said I looked (after all I have both installed) and neither Nero 6.6 nor UltraISO 9.36 (the latest) do, AFAI can see. :D

#24
rloew

rloew

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,084 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Who said Nero supports non-standard bootable ISOs?

Nobody, me included. I said I looked (after all I have both installed) and neither Nero 6.6 nor UltraISO 9.36 (the latest) do, AFAI can see. :D

I was referring to the "you" in "(as you said it does)" in your earlier post.
Ye who enter my domain. Beware! Lest you become educated in the mysteries of the universe and suffer forever from the desire to know more.

#25
dencorso

dencorso

    Adiuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,782 posts
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

I see. While I do strive to be clear, some times ambiguity gets the best of me.
So, just to set things right, what I wrote was:

I might be intersted if it gives me fine control to build unusual bootable .ISOs (as you said it does).

My intention was that those "it"s should mean "your software utilities", not Nero nor UltraISO. But "it" is too vague.
Sorry, my bad. :(




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users



How to remove advertisement from MSFN