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SATA to IDE adapters: which/what/why?

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#26
dencorso

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I'll post about them further along the week. But, the other adapter based on the JMicron worked all right from the Promise board, but when set as slave on the mobo ViA 8237 based IDE primary channel, it caused the BIOS not to find the master, thus preventing it from booting. The issue is with the ASUS BIOS, though, because when I managed to boot Win XP from another HDD, Windows found the primary master all right. I'll post about it in more detail soon. It costs US$ 5, so it may be worth it. Both support 48-bit LBA so up to 2 GB should be OK, but my tests were performed with a 60GB SATA I Toshiba and a 500 GB SATA II Seagate (jumpered to SATA I) only.

The other adapter based on the SunPlusIT chip was detected correctly and supported master, slave and cable select modes. It seemed to work OK, but SpinRite 6.0, NDD, SCANDISK and chkdsk all found lots of bad sectors in both HDDs, which do not exist when they are connected directly via SATA interface or using any of the two adapters based on the JMicron chip. So it is flawed and not recommended at all. I shall post about it last.

That's what I remember from the top of my head. I'd have to consult my test records to be more precise, but I think I've said enough to answer your question for now, shae.


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#27
rloew

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It may be of interest that the JM20330 based adapter card combined with a Promise card will correctly handle a 3TB Drive and probably much larger.
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#28
shae

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dencorso, thanks. Really strange to find corruption with the Sunplus chip. Something else must contribute to that, they can't not have noticed that when developing the chip. :)

rloew, would 48-bit support guarantee proper support for 2TB+ on both the SATA and IDE sides?

A few adapter leads:

Assuming that MM-PATA330 is the same as the Syba one, it can be had for 9.5$ including shipping, but not to all countries.

An apparent JM20330 one on DealExtreme for less than 5$, with M/S/CS mode. But one review complains it failed within a few minutes taking the drive with it. (Also unclear why the jumper legend is on the inner side.)

A manufacturer page for an adapter based on Marvell 88SA8052, with leds and M/S jumper, but without a "fence" around the IDE connector (I really hated those on old HDDs/mobos). The specs say 1.5Gbit, though the Marvell chip should support 3.0Gbit.

And BTW, I did see at least one IDE to 2 SATA adapter card on eBay. But it just looks more awkward having this card stick out of the mobo, and less flexible in that you can't mix SATA/IDE on the same IDE channel.

Edited by shae, 23 August 2011 - 05:25 PM.


#29
rloew

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rloew, would 48-bit support guarantee proper support for 2TB+ on both the SATA and IDE sides?

Since there are no 3TB PATA Drives, I had no reason to test it. I would not be surprised if the PATA<->SATA Adapter supports full 48-Bit LBA both ways, but support still requires that the Controller Firmware support full 48-Bit Addressing. The Promise Card labelled "Maxtor ATA133" does support full 48-Bit Addressing as have the SATA PCI and PCI-E cards, I have tested, except the Highpoint Cards. Motherboard BIOSes do NOT. So a DDO is required for every Motherboard connected Hard Drive. The Highpoint AHCI cards are totally incompatable with Windows 9x.

DOS and Windows 9x require additional Patches to support more than 2TiB.
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#30
dencorso

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Assuming that is the same as the Syba one, it can be had for 9.5$ including shipping, but not to all countries.

Yes. That is the MM-PATA330-V1.1, all right! The I/OCrest site address actually redirects to Syba's site, and that's where I found the .pdf of the printed manual i gace a link to (which is identical to the printed one I received with the adapter I bought and tested, down to its misspelled title: "Mamual").

An apparent JM20330 one on DealExtreme for less than 5$, with M/S/CS mode. But one review complains it failed within a few minutes taking the drive with it. (Also unclear why the jumper legend is on the inner side.).

No. Despite the site's photo showing it using the JM20330, at least one customer got one with a SunplusIT SPIF223A, besides myself, judging from the customers photos and comments. It seems both chips are pin-to-pin compatible, and this complicates things even more... That one is not based on the JM20330 at all. It is, in fact, the second type of adapter based on the SunplusIT SPIF223A chip that I tested. Its identifier is HW629D Rev 3.1. Even the package is exactly the same. The one that caused false multiple errors, about which I posted above. Whatever the price, it must be avoided. It's flawed, but appears to work OK, until one tries to chkdsk it. A scan from mine is here below (the white specks are just dust in the scanner's glass):

Attached File  Twain5.gif   161.48KB   10 downloads

A manufacturer page for an adapter based on Marvell 88SA8052, with leds and M/S jumper, but without a "fence" around the IDE connector (I really hated those on old HDDs/mobos). The specs say 1.5Gbit, though the Marvell chip should support 3.0Gbit.

That is the famous "Rosewill IDE-SATA07 adapter" based on Marvell 88SA8052, referenced in this thread elsewhere and said to be very good. I actively looked for it but did not find any actually for sale, regardless of whether they would ship to Brazil or not. It seems its production has been discontinued. It was the successor to the long-ago discontinued legendary "Rosewill IDE-SATA01 adapter", which was based on the Marvell 88SA8040.

And BTW, I did see at least one IDE to 2 SATA adapter card on eBay. But it just looks more awkward having this card stick out of the mobo, and less flexible in that you can't mix SATA/IDE on the same IDE channel.

True enough.

#31
rloew

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A manufacturer page for an adapter based on Marvell 88SA8052, with leds and M/S jumper, but without a "fence" around the IDE connector (I really hated those on old HDDs/mobos). The specs say 1.5Gbit, though the Marvell chip should support 3.0Gbit.

That is the famous "Rosewill IDE-SATA07 adapter" based on Marvell 88SA8052, referenced in this thread elsewhere and said to be very good. I actively looked for it but did not find any actually for sale, regardless of whether they would ship to Brazil or not. It seems its production has been discontinued. It was the successor to the long-ago discontinued legendary "Rosewill IDE-SATA01 adapter", which was based on the Marvell 88SA8040.

Marvell wrote the Firmware for the Highpoint Card I mentioned before that does not support more than 2TiB, so it is possible there could be an issue above 2TiB.
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#32
dencorso

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Sure. But I doubt we'll ever know for sure, since they seem to have all but disappeared, with or without the Rosewill brand.

#33
jaclaz

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Related (loosely) or UNrelated :ph34r::
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=23292

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#34
shae

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Sure. But I doubt we'll ever know for sure, since they seem to have all but disappeared, with or without the Rosewill brand.

At least judging from their site listing, that UK seller still has the item, though on a 2 month backorder.

BTW, I didn't know scanners could take photos of 3D objects that well. :)

#35
dencorso

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BTW, I didn't know scanners could take photos of 3D objects that well. :)

Sure they can! But be sure not to look that way while doing it, because you'll have to do it with the cover open, and the light is very intense. :yes:

BTW, here're links to some more (terse) manuals of interest: IDE-SATA01 & 04, IDE-SATA07

#36
I41Mar

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Some questions about the speed that can I achieve in my old PIII PC:
If I want to change my PATA HD and use a SATA HD with a SATA to IDE Adapter (based on the JMicron JM20330) what would be the transfer speed R/W and the possibility of booting the Win98SE OS?
The writing speed for my PATA internal HD is now about 20MB/sec, how fast will be in the case of a SATA HD?

A bit OT, but not very far ...
Last year I added a USB2 PCI card to my PIII PC, but the write speed has reached a maximum transfer rate of only 6 MB/sec (and not 20MB/sec - stated in product specs!). My other USB1.1 ports go up to 800KB/sec transfer rate, so overall the addition of the PCI card has been a marked improvement.
But I discarded the possibility of adding a SATA PCI card, because of previous experience about USB PCI cards (too low speed of the PCI card bus? Or maybe I'm wrong?)

Thank you in advance.
I41Mar

#37
dencorso

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By adding a good SATA PCI card you may get > 137GB support (due to the card's onboard BIOS extension), which a SATA - PATA adapter simply does not provide.
That said, the adapters based on JM20330 simply convert the interface, but don't affect much the final tranfer rates. The Toshiba disk I used in most of my tests is a particularly slow SATA I disk, and it gave me 35 MB/s when connected to the SATA port, and the same using the adapter to the mobo PATA controller, and still the same using the Pomise card with the adapter. Now, using a 500 GB 7200.11 Seagate SATA II disk, duly jumpered to SATA I, I've got around 90 MB/s, while my main disk in that setup, which is a 80 GB 7200.10 Seagate PATA disk gives consistently 75 MB/s, being connected to the 1st PATA channel as Master (all these are sequencial read times), So, I think the adapter hasn't much influence in the tranfer rates at all, but your mobo and the actual disk native speed sure do.

#38
shae

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The writing speed for my PATA internal HD is now about 20MB/sec, how fast will be in the case of a SATA HD?

That sounds more like a limitation of your motherboard IDE controller (is it very old?) or something wrong with drivers. Any HDD from maybe the last 10 years would be able to do more than that. Even if your controller is limited to 33MB/sec, I think you should expect more like 25MB/sec. Of course, all that assumes you're checking raw sequential speed (and at the beginning of the HDD if it's very old).

If your onboard controller is 33MB/sec, a PCI SATA controller should be faster. How much faster would also depend on your specific mobo chipset, I guess newer in general would be better. PCI is 133MB/sec cumulatively. Even with overhead and other concurrent traffic, I'd expect a SATA controller to exceed 33MB/sec and in ideal conditions maybe even triple that.

write speed has reached a maximum transfer rate of only 6 MB/sec

And read?

(and not 20MB/sec - stated in product specs!)

Specs could lie. :)

A PCI USB2 controller I have gets me about 16MB/sec. It could also be the limitation of the USB device, but I think it's the controller in this case. Either way it's far from saturating PCI.

Edited by shae, 07 September 2011 - 07:51 PM.


#39
tomasz86

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What you are asking is a "piggyback" board that fits in the back of a SATA 2.5" HD and makes it IDE/ATA compatible to a laptop (44 pin) connection AND that fits inside your notebook? :w00t:

Such adapters are (AFAIK) VERY rare, and it is doubtful whether there is enough space inside the notebook, here is one:
http://www.cooldrive...ahadrtoide.html

So I actually ordered one of these adapters. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find a slim one, only a similar thing to the one mentioned above.

I checked my notebook and I think it should fit with an SSD after removing the case to make it look like this:

Posted Image

EDIT

I received the stuff today ;) and it does fit when the drive is not fixed which shouldn't be an issue with SSD.

Edited by tomasz86, 19 October 2011 - 03:17 AM.

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#40
pointertovoid

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To connect a Sata cable on a Pata disk I have an RXD-628B (or RXD-6288?) card with a chip RXD 001 plus something lengthy. Dirt-cheap at eBay, and it works very well, with 75MB/s contiguous throughput just as the disks provides in Pata; access time in 0.2ms longer. Fine.

To connect a Pata ribbon on a Sata disk I had a Hxsp-071218 card which is bad. It blocked an otherwise sound Bios with safe sizes everywhere, or run at the Bios but not with Seatools, FDisk, or as a secondary disk on W2k... I don't use it any more.

My far better solution was a Sata host card on Pci. For W2k and later I have the excellent SiI3124. It has at least 119MB/s throughput on Intel Pci (not Via nor Ali!), does use Ahci (observed), accesses Dvd drives easily, has a Raid bios and a faster-to-boot non-Raid Bios, easy to change.
http://www.siliconim...uct.aspx?pid=27
http://www.siliconim...uct.aspx?pid=27
W2k boot time with one St3500418as was 24s (plus 4s added Bios time, or 2s non-Raid) on a PIII Tualatin 1.4GHz, as compared to 24s- with one J8160 on the original ICH2. Two St3500418as in Raid-0 aligned (!) "improved" to 22s (plus 4s added Bios time).

As this one has no driver for W95-98-Me, I have a SiI3114 for them. It has drivers for W98SE and WinMe (and W2k+), Bios for Raid and faster ones for non-Raid. I measured only 93MB/s with a disk capable of 134MB/s, and it doesn't use Ahci even with W2k, which loses a lot of speed, but is useless with W98-Me. And it does access Dvd drives, >128GiB and so on.
http://www.siliconim...uct.aspx?pid=28
http://www.siliconim...px?pid=28&cat=3
no single worry with both of them. Complete W2k installation from scratch tends to indicate this hardware is sound.
By the way, I had many SiI680a for Pata133 on Pci, they were excellent as well. All from eCreek.
And I didn't check how well the SiI3124 performs with WinMe and no driver. Under these conditions, the (Pata) RocketRaid 100 gave Udma speed to Win95b.

#41
tomasz86

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I connected a 5200 rpm SATA drive to my notebook using the adapter I mentioned before and it's detected in BIOS although its size isn't reported correctly. I guess the BIOS can detect only up to 160 GB (the drive itself has 250 GB).

I'm still very happy that it works :) I still need to do some benchmarks and tests but I think the idea of putting an SSD into this laptop is not that far from reality as I initially thought.

Edited by tomasz86, 23 October 2011 - 12:02 AM.

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#42
dencorso

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Are you sure you're using the latest BIOS offered by the manufacturer for your notebook? If not, consider upgrading.
It may be a way of detecting the full SSD.

#43
tomasz86

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Are you sure you're using the latest BIOS offered by the manufacturer for your notebook? If not, consider upgrading.
It may be a way of detecting the full SSD.

At this moment it's not SSD, just normal 2.5' 250 GB SATA drive. I connected it in order to test the adapter whether it works or not. Capacity limit shouldn't be a problem in case of SSD because if I buy one, it'll be a small one (<=64GB).

This notebook (Samsung SENS Q10) was made around 2002 and there's been no BIOS updates released at all.
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#44
dencorso

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Well, this being the case, let me please suggest you consider buying a RunCore SSD. They rock!

#45
tomasz86

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I've searched for RunCore but they're too expensive :o

I'll probably go for Samsung 470 64GB and remove the case to make it fit into this notebook.
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#46
tomasz86

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I finally managed to get everything work.

Jaclaz was right. The first adapter was too tall to fit in the notebook, even when the SSD was used without its case. I couldn't find any other, flatter one locally so I order this one from eBay. It was actually cheaper than the previous one ;) because the shipping cost was only 1$. It took around 1.5 weaks to get it.

First of all, I can say that everything works properly and there are no problems with stability. The SSD is detected properly in the BIOS and also when installing Windows. As it's a 64 GB capacity drive there are no issues with the BIOS too (its limit is 160 GB).

I took some pictures of the whole 'operation'.


E-IDE cable + previous (tall) adapter + SSD:

Posted Image


As you can see it's impossible to use the SSD 'as it is':

Posted Image


Samsung 470 can be very easily opened:

Posted Image

Posted Image


The Samsung SSD itself is only 1.8' size so it should fit to any laptop designed to work with a 2.5 HDD. I guess it may be important information as the newer model (Samsung 830) is 2.5' so it'll probably not fit when used together with an adapter.


The new flat adapter:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image


Samsung 470 detected in BIOS:

Posted Image

Posted Image


I did some basic benchmarks. As you can see, performance is heavily affected by the old ATA66 interface and the adapter too:


old IDE drive (Samsung HM160HC):

Posted Image


SSD (Samsung 470 64GB)

Posted Image


The results don't look very promising at the first sight but:

1. Access time difference - 18,2 ms (IDE) vs 0,1 ms (SSD)
2. 4K - huge difference

In general, there's a huge different in speed. You can't even compare system responsiveness on the old IDE drive to the current one. I can say that it's like giving a second life to this old machine :)

I want to thank everyone for providing help and useful information, and inspiring me to get this idea materialised although it looked quite unreal in the beginning.
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#47
jaclaz

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Jaclaz was right.

Sure :), the "queer" thing is that you actually doubted it :w00t: ;)

In general, there's a huge different in speed. You can't even compare system responsiveness on the old IDE drive to the current one. I can say that it's like giving a second life to this old machine :)

I want to thank everyone for providing help and useful information, and inspiring me to get this idea materialised although it looked quite unreal in the beginning.

Happy you made it! :thumbup

jaclaz

#48
dencorso

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+1
Glad you've had success! :thumbup

#49
TmEE

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This gives food for thought on SSDing my HP NX6125
I'd love to put an SSD into it, the HDD is dying in it and SSDs are more or less vibration proof so the laptop can be used more freely

Edited by TmEE, 23 November 2011 - 03:01 AM.

Posted Image Mida sa loed ? Nagunii aru ei saa ;)

#50
shae

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I got a JM20330 based one from eBay for $5: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140619484951

Difficult getting the SATA and power connectors in, difficult getting them out, particularly when the PCB flexes since it isn't anchored, but it's workable. Even comes with extra bright red LEDs! :) I didn't get a good look at those LEDs, a difficult angle, but I assume they indicate connect drives or something.

A 750GB Samsung looked fine with it, though I only checked it briefly with HDTune. Other than that so far I used it to copy data from a 500GB WDC. No problems noted. (Well, there were 2 1-bit read errors, but that's something my IDE controller's been known to do when running DMA modes, so I guess that was the cause... :))

While it has a master/slave jumper, I couldn't get that part to work correctly.

I tried both the 750GB Samsung and 500GB WDC SATA drives, with an IDE WDC being the other drive. The BIOS doesn't detect either drive in that case. In some cases I did manage to get the drive ID strings to show in the BIOS setup screens, but not in actual boot, and always after a long delay.

I tried both as master/slave, two 80-wire cables, two positions on cable, WDC jumpered to force SATA 150, IDE drive jumpered in two master positions (single/master+slave), but no go. The IDE controller I tried it on is a SIS 5513 (part of the SIS630 chipset).

Any idea if it might be a compatibility issue, or how to solve it?

Edited by shae, 01 December 2011 - 04:03 AM.





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