[Rjecina]

Like we all knows last few years we are having on market new hard disk which are creating problems with Windows 98 SE, ME and even Windows XP.

First and smaller of this problems are hard drives with 4kb sector-size and about that it is possible to read on this place.

In my thinking more serious problem for us is hardware change from combination BIOS-MBR (master boot record) to UEFI-GPT (GUID Partition Table). In the end because support of Master boot record which is having hard drive limit of 2 TB and 4kb size is ending all Windows older of Windows Vista are having interesting problems. Official position of hard drives producers about Windows 98 SE (and Windows XP) is:

Western Digital 2TB disks officialy do not support OS older of Vista. It is possible to add support with special PCIE card, but this will not work on Windows 98
Hitachi has declared that user need to install new Window OS (Vista or 7)
Seagate is using special software to break this limit for Windows XP, but nothing about Windows 98. Only good news is that part of Seagate 2TB hard disk is supporting Windows 98 SE, but other part do not support so it is all question of luck which you will buy.

Because of this hardware reasons in my thinking now it is time to buy new 2TB hard disk which will support Windows 98 SE. For that job I have choosen SAMSUNG SpinPoint F4 EcoGreen, SATA, 2000.0 GB, 32MB, 5400 because it is no brainer or in other words it is ONLY Samsung 2TB hard drive and it is supporting Windows 98 SE which is very different of Seagate who is having different 2TB hard disks (some supports some not).

Reasons for SpinPoint F4 are:
full Windows 98 SE support
cheapest 2TB hard drive
coldest 2Tb hard drive
fastest medium speed in HD Tune tests in Green hard drives category

Reasons against (in support of Seagate) SpintPoint F4 are:
slowest hard disk speed in PC Mark tests
slowest burst perfomance
it is SATA II disk, but it speed is in line with SATA I

New Windows 98 SE installation on SpinPoint:

Like we all on this forum know we need to change BIOS to work in compantible mode so that Windows 98 SE can work with SATA disks.
SpinPoint is connected on SATA and my DVD with Windows 98 SE CD is connected with PATA
First question which during installation user is asked is about creating and formating partitions. If user will answer yes on default offer for creating and formating partition Windows 98 SE he will create interesting partition or on other words formated FAT 32 partition of around 360 GB. In the end even with this weard number installation has ended OK and everything has worked.

Because I am having on old hard disk dual boot, like last Windows noob I have not thinked about 137 GB limit so trying to install Windows XP on second partition of 300 GB has destroyed Windows 98 SE partition. After loosing many, many hours I have destroyed both partitions and created new which have been 32 GB for Windows 98 SE and 100 GB for Windows XP and now my Windows 98 SE installation and Windows XP installation have worked OK. Latter with for example Partition Magic it has been possible to extend both partition (Windows 98 SE until 128 GB) and created 3rd great partition for media archive.

My hope is that this small installation guide will help somebody else who will not make my noob mistake + I am having very stupid conflict/problem with new configuration so I am needing small help.

After installing both sistems everything is working superb, but my DVD is having weird Windows conflict.
I can install all programs from DVD, but I can't copy files from DVD to hard disk or in other words if on DVD I am having few media files Windows will start to copy and after let say 60 seconds latter stop because of input error. In beginning DVD will work normal, but after let say 30 second it is possible to hear that it is stoping to work and after next 30 windows are giving message about input error. I have tried to copy from DOS, Windows 98, Windows XP but situation has not changed. My MBO is AsRock 775i65G

My thinking is that I am having sort of conflict between SATA hard disk and PATA DVD, but I do now know how to solve this problem....

This post has been edited by Rjecina: 30 August 2011 - 06:19 AM

[rloew]

I have written a set of Patches for Windows 98 to deal with the 4 issues that occur with the latest Hard Drives.

1. Hard Drives larger than 2TiB.
2. Advanced Format Drives.
3. Partitions larger than 1TiB.
4. SATA Drives without Drivers.

I have no intention of letting the march of progress push me off Windows 98SE any time soon.

[dencorso]

I liked to think that, by now, everybody was aware that using small partitions *cannot* workaround the 137 GB limit.
I see it was wishful thinking, though.
That said, I don't see why any given 2 TB HDD wouldn't work with Win 9x/ME, provided one has 48-lba support.
Most 2 TB HDDs, if not all, still use 512 bytes sectors, don't they?

[allen2]

Many 2TB WD hard drive use 4k sectors: example.
As for the OP problem transfering files from dvd to hdd, i'd check the pio mode of the dvd and see if it change something.

This post has been edited by allen2: 30 August 2011 - 01:34 PM

[rloew]

dencorso, on 30 August 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

I liked to think that, by now, everybody was aware that using small partitions *cannot* workaround the 137 GB limit.
I see it was wishful thinking, though.
That said, I don't see why any given 2 TB HDD wouldn't work with Win 9x/ME, provided one has 48-lba support.
Most 2 TB HDDs, if not all, still use 512 bytes sectors, don't they?

As far as I can tell, only Western Digital uses "Advanced Format". Even the 3TB Drives from other Manufacturers use 512 Byte Physical Sectors.
3TB USB Drives use 4KiB Logical Sectors though and are not supported by unpatched Windows 9x.

[allen2]

Seagate also use 4K and should be almost only using it (for new drives) when you read this.

[Mijzelf]

allen2, on 30 August 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

Many 2TB WD hard drive use 4k sectors

Does that matter? AFAIK they all expose a 512B logical sector size, so apart from a possible performance penalty it won't hurt if you just ignore that.

[allen2]

Miss aligned partition of course can cause very low performance and in worst cases could lead to small freezes if paging file is heavily fragmented and on a miss aligned partition.
For old Os, it would be a lot safer to use 512B logical sector size hard drive.
Perhaps using the software provided for XP by manufacturers would also provide support for win9x (for the partitioning).

[dencorso]

The 2TB Seagate Barracuda XT (ST32000641AS) still uses 512 bytes sectors, and seems to me to be a safe bet.
It's a 7200 RPM, 1.82 TiB, SATA III HDD. There's no jumper setting for SATA I mode, however, so the controller, if SATA I, must support autonegociation.

[M()zart]

Rjecina, on 30 August 2011 - 05:02 AM, said:

I can install all programs from DVD, but I can't copy files from DVD to hard disk or in other words if on DVD I am having few media files Windows will start to copy and after let say 60 seconds latter stop because of input error. In beginning DVD will work normal, but after let say 30 second it is possible to hear that it is stoping to work and after next 30 windows are giving message about input error. I have tried to copy from DOS, Windows 98, Windows XP but situation has not changed. My MBO is AsRock 775i65G

My thinking is that I am having sort of conflict between SATA hard disk and PATA DVD, but I do now know how to solve this problem....

Are you sure that it is not the bad disc or bad dvd drive? Have you tried the same ones with different OS/PC?

This post has been edited by M()zart: 01 September 2011 - 07:06 AM

[shae]

dencorso, on 30 August 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

I liked to think that, by now, everybody was aware that using small partitions *cannot* workaround the 137 GB limit.

What's wrong with >137GB disks if Win9x only accesses partitions below the limit?

[submix8c]

shae, on 02 September 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

What's wrong with >137GB disks if Win9x only accesses partitions below the limit?

Ah, but it will attempt to assign a drive letter (which means access). The only other workaround is to boot using, e.g., Grub4DOS and "hide" the others.

I currently have a slight problem with a 250gb that I have yet to "hide" the extras. A "phantom drive" appears (due to wrap-around) and I do not touch the one(s) higher than 137gb. Rearrangement of the partitions is currently not in my schedule nor the funds (yet) to purchase a permanent fix.

BE FOREWARNED!

[rloew]

submix8c, on 02 September 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

shae, on 02 September 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

What's wrong with >137GB disks if Win9x only accesses partitions below the limit?

Ah, but it will attempt to assign a drive letter (which means access). The only other workaround is to boot using, e.g., Grub4DOS and "hide" the others.

I currently have a slight problem with a 250gb that I have yet to "hide" the extras. A "phantom drive" appears (due to wrap-around) and I do not touch the one(s) higher than 137gb. Rearrangement of the partitions is currently not in my schedule nor the funds (yet) to purchase a permanent fix.

BE FOREWARNED!

Even if you don't touch the "phantom drives", Windows 9x might try to stick a Recycle Bin or _Restore Folder in it without any warning. This could corrupt data below the 137GB Limit.
Hide the Partitions or Patch the Driver, or else.

[dencorso]

submix8c, on 02 September 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

I currently have a slight problem with a 250gb that I have yet to "hide" the extras. A "phantom drive" appears (due to wrap-around) and I do not touch the one(s) higher than 137gb. Rearrangement of the partitions is currently not in my schedule nor the funds (yet) to purchase a permanent fix.

2 quick questions:
Does your BIOS support 48-bit LBA?
Is the 250GB HDD SATA?

[submix8c]

dencorso, on 02 September 2011 - 10:12 PM, said:

2 quick questions:
Does your BIOS support 48-bit LBA?
Is the 250GB HDD SATA?

Yes - No
I have all of the patches provided on MSFN. I was OK until I "shuffled" the partitions to define a couple of larger ones (50gb FAT32) to gain some "unallocated space" on it. Logical Partitions...

The MoBo support SATA but none are installed. It appears that the "wrap" (a "phantom drive) is due to the last Logical in the (expanded size) Extended (which is now GT 137).

The solution appears to be to back up the data and redefine to smaller partitions so I can properly hide the GT137 GB space.

Not too worried about it right now. It appears to "barf" when I try to access the "phantom" with "Do you want to format". I've read enough (and knew better but had a DUH moment) to know now that I should have only 2 Primaries and 2 Extendeds and defined the Logicals inside of the two Extendeds and "hidden" the second Extended via Grub.

My Main Boot is on a smaller HDD (Primary) and then on Secondary is XP then 98SE then another Primary then the Extended with several Logicals.

No worries for now. Just not too smart to have done it that way. I rarely use 98SE. I could "hide" but then I wpould have to modify my Boot to use Grub entirely (I just use it for 98SE right now) to "unhide" for Server/XP.

As far as Recycle, before I did that, I had it set to use separately, so the "phantom" ("unformatted") doesn't appear to present a Recycled problem.

P.S. I have been using VPC to "test" stuff for XP and 9x for attempting assistance.

[jaclaz]

I am not sure to get what the problem is (I mean Submix8c's one).
Can't you just make any partition/volume beyond the 137 Gb limit formatted as NTFS (or simply use the 07 Partition ID in the partition table entries)?

jaclaz

[dencorso]

submix8c, on 03 September 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

I have all of the patches provided on MSFN.

So your board supports 48-bit LBA *and* you're using one of LLXX patched ESDI_506.PDR? Are you sure?
Start a hexeditor and look inside the ESDI_506.PDR for the string "Enable48bitLBA!v1.1 by Litty" to double-check.
If that's confirmed, then your issue shouldn't have anythining to do with the > 137GB limit.

[Rjecina]

dencorso, on 01 September 2011 - 01:27 AM, said:

The 2TB Seagate Barracuda XT (ST32000641AS) still uses 512 bytes sectors, and seems to me to be a safe bet.
It's a 7200 RPM, 1.82 TiB, SATA III HDD. There's no jumper setting for SATA I mode, however, so the controller, if SATA I, must support autonegociation.

Yes your are right.
I have used Samsung SpinPoint F4 for example because it is no brainer for everybody.
Today situation with 2TB hard drives is (YES or NO is saying if by default they work with Win98):

Samsung SpinPoint 2 TB 512b (YES)
Seagate Barracude Green 2 TB 4kb (NO)
Seagate Barracude XT 2 TB 512b (YES)
WD Caviar Black 2TB 512b (YES)
WD Caviar Green 2TB 4kb (NO)
WD CaviarRE4 2TB 512b (YES)

in other words if you buy Seagate or WD Caviar hard drive there is need for attention. Today rule is to not buy green hard disks of 2 TB, tomorow.....

My problem with MBO and chipset Intel 865 is solved.
Problem is that drivers connected to IDE are always master in combination SATA + IDE so in the end I am having:
master3 SATA hard disk and master4 ATA DVD.

Everything is working with jumper combination:
Samsung SpinPoint 2 TB without jumpers
Sony DVD with jumper on slave position

[submix8c]

@jaclaz - I'm using an NTFS-access software.
@dencorso - BHDD31
Don't worry about my "problem" - Post was just a warning. When I get around to more investigation (using PTEDIT32 and a Hex Editor to "look" at the Partitions/Drives, BTW) and CANNOT "cure" it on my own, I'll start my own thread. I'm like you guys - stubbornly refuse to let a man-made "object" beat me.

Concentrate on OP's problem.

[jaclaz]

submix8c, on 04 September 2011 - 11:28 AM, said:

Don't worry about my "problem" - Post was just a warning.

I am not worried.

And what happens with Letter Assigner?

submix8c, on 04 September 2011 - 11:28 AM, said:

Concentrate on OP's problem.

Problem? WHAT problem?

http://www.imdb.com/...es?qt=qt0484668

Quote

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: You know, I'm a rather brilliant surgeon. Perhaps I can help you with that hump.
Igor: What hump?

Rjecina, on 03 September 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:

My problem with MBO and chipset Intel 865 is solved.
Problem is that drivers connected to IDE are always master in combination SATA + IDE so in the end I am having:
master3 SATA hard disk and master4 ATA DVD.

Everything is working with jumper combination:
Samsung SpinPoint 2 TB without jumpers
Sony DVD with jumper on slave position

jaclaz