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Year 2038 Problem

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#1
vipejc

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Since Windows NT, including XP, use a 64-bit time integer for file and system time, are all programs for them safe from the Y2K38 problem?
There's no such thing as a dumb computer question. Each of us interprets info differently. - Me


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#2
jaclaz

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Since Windows NT, including XP, use a 64-bit time integer for file and system time, are all programs for them safe from the Y2K38 problem?


Well, in the next 27 years this should become clear enough. :angel

But are you sure that in 2038 you will use a NTFS filesystem and/or a NT based system released some 30 years before?
(Please raise your hand you peeps that run on a daily basis a CP/M machine.)

The issue is known:
http://en.wikipedia....ar_2038_problem
it mainly affects Unix based OS (and conversely POSIX times)

There are a couple places dedicated to this issue:
http://www.deepsky.c...ovech/2038.html
http://www.codeproje...r-2038-Bug.aspx
http://www.exit109.c...yrexamples.html

In non-critical apps/OS/systems, in 2038 we will be able to use SETBACK approach:
http://www.exit109.c...rBad.WorkAround
And "proper" NT is immune:
http://www.exit109.c...icrosoft.Epochs
1601	Microsoft NT/2000 (Win32)	n/a	100nsec ticks since 1601-January-01 for a range of about 29,200 years
until roughly year 30,800 :w00t:
http://www.exit109.c...Microsoft.Ticks
though "bad" programs may still behave "wrongly".

jaclaz

#3
vipejc

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I'm positive. Enjoy your Windows 25 with space communication. :hello:
There's no such thing as a dumb computer question. Each of us interprets info differently. - Me

#4
Kelsenellenelvian

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WHAT?!?!?

You mean to tell me my 35-40 (XP) year old OS will not work in 27 years?

FRACK what I am ever going to do??? :P

#5
vipejc

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My BIOS' date goes all the way to 2099. I will have my 32-bit Windows XP Home w/ SP3 CD placed in my cold, dead hands before the lid to my coffin is closed and I am lowered into the ground. :yes:
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#6
Tripredacus

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There is a good possibility that whatever computers are around in 2038 (or 2099 for that matter) may not even be able to run something like Windows XP.
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#7
jaclaz

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I'm positive. Enjoy your Windows 25 with space communication. :hello:


You probably misunderstood. :unsure:

I know that in year 2038 - if still alive - I will most probably be still using 2K (or in the worst case XP).

I was asking about you. :whistle:

And @Tripredacus ;), most probably we will be using Qemu 217.2 on an Ubuntu 408.25 "Wild Worry-free Wooing Wombat" with kernel 118.4.10 in order to run it on the AMINTEL i4886 1024bit processor.

And of course should not skynet gain self-awareness in the meantime. :ph34r:

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 31 August 2011 - 08:19 AM.


#8
Tripredacus

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And @Tripredacus ;), most probably we will be using Qemu 217.2 on an Ubuntu 408.25 "Wild Worry-free Wooing Wombat" with kernel 118.4.10 in order to run it on the AMINTEL i4886 1024bit processor.


I'd expect (presuming Microsoft was telling the truth) that I'd still be using Windows 8 x128 by 2038. Only because the "idea" of having a PC with an exabyte of RAM is such a mind-boggling yet fascinating idea. And to add in the fact that it would likely take me 25 years to save up enough money to buy that much RAM... Or at least a motherboard with 1 billion RAM slots on it. :w00t:
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#9
jaclaz

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And @Tripredacus ;), most probably we will be using Qemu 217.2 on an Ubuntu 408.25 "Wild Worry-free Wooing Wombat" with kernel 118.4.10 in order to run it on the AMINTEL i4886 1024bit processor.


I'd expect (presuming Microsoft was telling the truth) that I'd still be using Windows 8 x128 by 2038. Only because the "idea" of having a PC with an exabyte of RAM is such a mind-boggling yet fascinating idea. And to add in the fact that it would likely take me 25 years to save up enough money to buy that much RAM... Or at least a motherboard with 1 billion RAM slots on it. :w00t:

Well, let's see what could happen in 27 years applying Moore Law and/or one of the similar related ones :whistle: :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law
http://users.hal-pc..../0MooreLaw.html


BUT take into account also Wirht's Law :ph34r: :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth's_law

And Jevons' Paradox:
http://en.wikipedia..../Jevons_paradox

Basically you will need to run a small nuclear plant to get the power needed for the PC on which you will write lousy posts on MSFN or the occasional e-.mail to your grand grandsons. :angel
:lol:

jaclaz

#10
vipejc

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You probably misunderstood. :unsure:

I know that in year 2038 - if still alive - I will most probably be still using 2K (or in the worst case XP).

I was asking about you. :whistle:



No misunderstanding here. Of course I'll be using XP in 2038 and beyond. It was my question. LOL

Since XP uses 64-bit time, if I were to adjust Windows' Date and Time to the year 2040 to check that all my programs are safe or not from Y2K38, what is the worst that could happen? Could XP crash, even though it's immune from Y2K38, or would just the offending program crash, like any other protected-mode error?

Edited by vipejc, 31 August 2011 - 07:23 PM.

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#11
Tripredacus

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No misunderstanding here. Of course I'll be using XP in 2038 and beyond. It was my question. LOL Is there a way to look at a program's source code with Notepad or another simple program to see if it suffers from Y2K38?


You could just change the date in your BIOS and block Windows time synchornization... :whistle:

Of course Windows Update won't work with such a configuration. :)
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#12
jaclaz

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Since XP uses 64-bit time, if I were to adjust Windows' Date and Time to the year 2040 to check that all my programs are safe or not from Y2K38, what is the worst that could happen? Could XP crash, even though it's immune from Y2K38, or would just the offending program crash, like any other protected-mode error?


Most probably it won't even actually crash, it will simply create/display/print/whatever "silly" dates, or, if dates are used for internal calculations, show/etc. "silly" results.

jaclaz

#13
vipejc

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Since XP uses 64-bit time, if I were to adjust Windows' Date and Time to the year 2040 to check that all my programs are safe or not from Y2K38, what is the worst that could happen? Could XP crash, even though it's immune from Y2K38, or would just the offending program crash, like any other protected-mode error?


Most probably it won't even actually crash, it will simply create/display/print/whatever "silly" dates, or, if dates are used for internal calculations, show/etc. "silly" results.

jaclaz


I'm setting up a test environment and will report the results. I'll also be contacting all software vendors I support and asking them to use an unsigned 32-bit integer for time_t in a future version, to postpone the problem until 2106, which is the best compromise, because nobody in that generation will know XP, and thus can't have an attachment to it.

Huh? I thought Windows NT was immune from Y2K38? Then what's this:


What operating systems, platforms, and applications are affected by it?

A quick check with the following Perl script may help determine if your computers will have problems (this requires Perl to be installed on your system, of course):

#!/usr/bin/perl
#
# I've seen a few versions of this algorithm
# online, I don't know who to credit. I assume
# this code to by GPL unless proven otherwise.
# Comments provided by William Porquet, February 2004.
# You may need to change the line above to
# reflect the location of your Perl binary
# (e.g. "#!/usr/local/bin/perl").
# Also change this file's name to '2038.pl'.
# Don't forget to make this file +x with "chmod".
# On Linux, you can run this from a command line like this:
# ./2038.pl
use POSIX;
# Use POSIX (Portable Operating System Interface),
# a set of standard operating system interfaces.
$ENV{'TZ'} = "GMT";
# Set the Time Zone to GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) for date calculations.
for ($clock = 2147483641; $clock < 2147483651; $clock++)
{
print ctime($clock);
}
# Count up in seconds of Epoch time just before and after the critical event.
# Print out the corresponding date in Gregorian calendar for each result.
# Are the date and time outputs correct after the critical event second?


I have only seen a mere handful of operating systems that appear to be unaffected by the year 2038 bug so far. For example, the output of this script on Debian GNU/Linux (kernel 2.4.22):

# ./2038.pl
Tue Jan 19 03:14:01 2038
Tue Jan 19 03:14:02 2038
Tue Jan 19 03:14:03 2038
Tue Jan 19 03:14:04 2038
Tue Jan 19 03:14:05 2038
Tue Jan 19 03:14:06 2038
Tue Jan 19 03:14:07 2038
Fri Dec 13 20:45:52 1901
Fri Dec 13 20:45:52 1901
Fri Dec 13 20:45:52 1901

Windows 2000 Professional with ActivePerl 5.8.3.809 fails in such a manner that it stops displaying the date after the critical second:

C:\>perl 2038.pl
Mon Jan 18 22:14:01 2038
Mon Jan 18 22:14:02 2038
Mon Jan 18 22:14:03 2038
Mon Jan 18 22:14:04 2038
Mon Jan 18 22:14:05 2038
Mon Jan 18 22:14:06 2038
Mon Jan 18 22:14:07 2038

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#14
jaclaz

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Huh? I thought Windows NT was immune from Y2K38? Then what's this:

Owww, come on :w00t: :

What operating systems, platforms, and applications are affected by it?
.....
use POSIX;
# Use POSIX (Portable Operating System Interface),
# a set of standard operating system interfaces.
....

....
The issue is known:
http://en.wikipedia....ar_2038_problem
it mainly affects Unix based OS (and conversely POSIX times)
....


jaclaz

#15
vipejc

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Jaclaz, I'm guessing POSIX isn't used in Windows NT? You being a Developer, have you worked on any versions of Windows? Any videogames?
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#16
Tripredacus

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Since this has moved away from being an XP question and become more general... since the inclusion of Windows 2000 and Debian, I'll stick this in Software Hangout.
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#17
jaclaz

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Jaclaz, I'm guessing POSIX isn't used in Windows NT?

WHY guessing? :w00t:
Wouldn't researching be more reliable? :unsure:

POSIX is a Windows NT subsystem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX
http://en.wikipedia....SIX_for_Windows
http://en.wikipedia....POSIX_subsystem

This is the "new version" of it:
http://en.wikipedia....rvices_for_UNIX
(I have NO idea if this latter is 2038 compatible)

PERL normally runs in the POSIX subsystem so it tests it (and not the actual NT).

You being a Developer, have you worked on any versions of Windows?

Well, actually I have worked on ANY Windows version, starting from 1.0, but NOT in the sense you seem to think the "developer" label has been given to me on MSFN, but I am NOT a developer, at the most I put a couple of lines of batch together (and PUSH "real" developers to do their work ;))


Any videogames?

You must be joking.
I am a dinosaur, one of the most advanced videogames I ever played has been (very recently) this one :ph34r: :
http://www.msfn.org/...501-url-hunter/

jaclaz

#18
vipejc

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Jaclaz, I'm guessing POSIX isn't used in Windows NT?

WHY guessing? :w00t:
Wouldn't researching be more reliable? :unsure:

POSIX is a Windows NT subsystem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX
http://en.wikipedia....SIX_for_Windows
http://en.wikipedia....POSIX_subsystem

This is the "new version" of it:
http://en.wikipedia....rvices_for_UNIX
(I have NO idea if this latter is 2038 compatible)

PERL normally runs in the POSIX subsystem so it tests it (and not the actual NT).

You being a Developer, have you worked on any versions of Windows?

Well, actually I have worked on ANY Windows version, starting from 1.0, but NOT in the sense you seem to think the "developer" label has been given to me on MSFN, but I am NOT a developer, at the most I put a couple of lines of batch together (and PUSH "real" developers to do their work ;))


Any videogames?

You must be joking.
I am a dinosaur, one of the most advanced videogames I ever played has been (very recently) this one :ph34r: :
http://www.msfn.org/...501-url-hunter/

jaclaz



I do try to research everything. The problem is Wikipedia and everywhere else make simple stuff into a book and use developer speak that I can't understand. They take all the fun out of learning. First I get mad. Then I laugh at them...like I'm about to do now. LOL You had me fooled good. Why with your high-level tech talk, eccentric yet sarcastic approach to help desk, and constant Wikipedia links, I really thought you were a Developer. A non-developer with a developer title. That's like a man with a needle calling himself a doctor. Wouldn't your proper title be Project Manager? And please explain how the "developers" could allow another Y2K, when it all it took to prevent the first one was setting the start of time to 0. LMAO

Edited by vipejc, 01 September 2011 - 12:29 PM.

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#19
jaclaz

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[Why with your high-level tech talk, eccentric yet sarcastic approach to help desk, and constant Wikipedia links, I really thought you were a Developer.

Naah, Wikipedia is the very basic info, mostly for kids :w00t: ;).

Real developers (besides drinking COKE) :
http://uranus.chrysocome.net/coke.htm

Talk in some kind of jargon that it will take you a few years to understand, you want an example of developers talk, you should peek on some mailing list, or github examples:
https://github.com/t...ools.rb/pull/24
http://gcc.gnu.org/m...3/msg00222.html
(and these are the easy to understand ones :whistle:)

jaclaz

#20
vipejc

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Jaclaz, do you not eat, sleep or bathe and spend all your time reading computer Wikis and Microsoft Knowledge Base articles? Because you know an awful lot about technology. ;)
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#21
Tripredacus

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I do try to research everything. The problem is Wikipedia and everywhere else make simple stuff into a book and use developer speak that I can't understand. They take all the fun out of learning.


Naah, Wikipedia is the very basic info, mostly for kids :w00t: ;)


For technology I will agree. If you try looking up sports injuries or body parts/muscles you do not know, that is another story! :wacko:

Jaclaz, do you not eat, sleep or bathe and spend all your time reading computer Wikis and Microsoft Knowledge Base articles? Because you know an awful lot about technology. ;)


While I agree to a point, everyone has their specialties. I think that given time, Jaclaz can possibly replace google since he has all the relevant links, while google likes to toss a bunch of other things in there, especially when it does that "we searched for this instead of what you typed, click here to actually search for what you typed in." crap. :realmad: :lol:
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#22
vipejc

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I do try to research everything. The problem is Wikipedia and everywhere else make simple stuff into a book and use developer speak that I can't understand. They take all the fun out of learning.


Naah, Wikipedia is the very basic info, mostly for kids :w00t: ;)


For technology I will agree. If you try looking up sports injuries or body parts/muscles you do not know, that is another story! :wacko:

Jaclaz, do you not eat, sleep or bathe and spend all your time reading computer Wikis and Microsoft Knowledge Base articles? Because you know an awful lot about technology. ;)


While I agree to a point, everyone has their specialties. I think that given time, Jaclaz can possibly replace google since he has all the relevant links, while google likes to toss a bunch of other things in there, especially when it does that "we searched for this instead of what you typed, click here to actually search for what you typed in." crap. :realmad: :lol:


Yeah, Jaclaz is the new search engine. Best of all he's malware-free. Everybody has a purpose. Nobody knows it all. The intent of forums, just like MSFN, is to bring diverse minds together to solve all problems. Never be afraid to ask for help or feel stupid asking for it. We all learn in different ways and at different speeds. I never forget that and try to return the favor whenever I can. There's way too many idiotic things in this industry to keep it all straight, all the time.
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