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Windows 8 First Impressions


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#51
vinifera

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I don't like it simply because they ruined the concept of serious OS

if we go back to Whistler, many disliked that next version (XP) would look so painted and ugly
and naturally Vista followed

I greet skinning with open arms, and think that OS should indeed look more nicer than just plain old gray flat panel look
but there should be line drawn to what is serious and efficient

now comes 8 that turns workstation into child playground
seriously Metro is beginning of crapiness
this move doesn't make user focus on OS and/or how to use it but to most lazy ineffective cluttered UI to which even biggest id*** will praise but still
because its Windows OS that will need HUGE maintainance and thus such user will complain for various stuff as it always goes with windows os...

now many complain how start menu is crap and how this start screen is sooo much better
well who says that start menu's function was even that of start screen in 1st place ?
AFAIK and this goes since 95 era, start menu always showed all installed programs and additional features (accesability, system tools, networking etc...)
start screen does not

and what is even worse its ran upon IE which makes IE again needed to be in core of OS

the next thing they brag about is faster search... doh there were great and better alternatives to this since ~2005
take UltraSearch for example, it reads directly from MFT - no need for databases or indexing or whatnot...
and manipulates with files like you do from within File manager aka Explorer

to me that they make Tablet UI OS for desktop is ridiculous, as much as I hate to say "apple got it right", but they did
Desktop workstation and Tablet deserve separate OS-es, or atleast same OS core with UI that is made for specifically desktop or tablet

now with all this web social bull s*** integrated, the OS concept goes even more worse...
I just couldn't believe when Ballmer on last conference sold all that crap to people how all people he knows are now so "close to him"
how virtual life and life are same

I mean c'mon...

sure technology and OS-es need to evolve but this is not the way...

instead to patch NT holes they have they focus on... well I won't even describe it :P

Edited by vinifera, 25 January 2012 - 08:43 PM.

If you want true Windows user experience
try Longhorn builds: 3718, 4029, 4066


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#52
CoffeeFiend

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@vinifera: exactly my thoughts :)

Who cares if the users have the best, fantastic "Win32" software library for everything, which is what made Windows what it is today? Let's make this (its only advantage) an afterthought by turning it all into "legacy" software, and then putting heavy focus on gimmicky smartphone-like apps, along with a blocky touch UI that isn't meant for for a desktop or laptop, killing the start menu in the process and making the desktop and its Win32 apps a 2nd class citizen?

That will go over well... (hopefully I didn't break anyone's sarcasm meter)
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#53
jaclaz

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Usually people learn from history (and past mistakes).
It seems like this is not the case, anyone old enough to remember this? :rolleyes:
http://toastytech.com/guis/bob.html
and yes, they should have ALSO been publicly whipped (40 lashes :ph34r: ) for the most gratuitious use of adjective "scrumptious" :w00t: :
http://www.merriam-w...ary/scrumptious
since 1925 :yes: :

"Oh! Buy how scrumptious."

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks07/0700911.txt

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#54
MagicAndre1981

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It seems like this is not the case, anyone old enough to remember this? :rolleyes:
http://toastytech.com/guis/bob.html


When I first saw that Metro nightmare I also thought MS Bob is back :realmad:
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#55
JorgeA

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Usually people learn from history (and past mistakes).
It seems like this is not the case, anyone old enough to remember this? :rolleyes:
http://toastytech.com/guis/bob.html
jaclaz

jaclaz,

Thanks for these links. Back in the day I never heard of Microsoft Bob and totally missed it. (I stayed on my Windows for Workgroups 3.11 PC till 2002.) What a ridiculous idea!!

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 26 January 2012 - 10:37 AM.


#56
Win2k3EE

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Windows 8 SUX! Plain and simple! The productivity is ZERO. The "tile home screen" is for phones NOT for PC! Sinofsky has a PC at home? It seems not...

#57
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Sinofsky has a PC at home? It seems not...


looks so. Best would be that ALL MS employees who say Metro is fine should through Mouse7keyboard out of the Window and use touch Monitor 8 hours at work. After 1 day they can't move their arm any longer and understand that this is crap.

Edited by MagicAndre1981, 27 January 2012 - 01:47 PM.

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#58
JorgeA

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Sinofsky has a PC at home? It seems not...


looks so. Best would be that ALL MS employees who say Metro is fine should through Mouse7keyboard out of the Window and use touch Monitor 8 hours at work. After 1 day they can't move their arm any longer and understand that this is crap.

LOL :D

#59
MagicAndre1981

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but it's true. Apple made a study and came to the conclusion that Working touch only on PCs is an ergonomic disaster. So making a GUI which is made for touch is useless on the desktop. That's why they made iOS and have not updated the MacOSX with a touch UI:
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#60
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Apple made a study and came to the conclusion that Working touch only on PCs is an ergonomic disaster.

a.k.a. gorilla arm syndrome and poor usability, yeah. I'm not even sure why you'd need a fancy study for something that seems fairly obvious.

So making a GUI which is made for touch is useless on the desktop. That's why they made iOS and have not updated the MacOSX with a touch UI:

Now if only MS got this... I mean, I never complained too badly about the UI of MS apps in general. Some of it sucked, and some of it was pretty good (e.g. introducing the start menu in Win95, or the new search in it lately). But Metro is a disaster, plain and simple. The only somewhat logical explanation I can think of it that they believe we're only going to be using tablets and phones starting this year. There's no way they thought anyone would want to use this on a desktop or laptop.
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#61
vinifera

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Apple made a study and came to the conclusion that Working touch only on PCs is an ergonomic disaster.


a study is needed to conclude this ? ... oh my whatever...

one can do it by simply raising hands and holding them for 20 seconds
If you want true Windows user experience
try Longhorn builds: 3718, 4029, 4066

#62
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The only somewhat logical explanation I can think of it that they believe we're only going to be using tablets and phones starting this year.


this is Microsofts logic, but this is wrong. here is why:

They see that PC sales drop or stay the same but Tablet sales increase. Now they made the MISTAKE: Business economics only accepts endless growing, but todays PC are so powerful that you can use them for 3-5 years. So the users buy tablets as ADDITIONAL devices, NOT AS REPLACEMENTS!!!!!!!! This is why Windows 8 was completely wrong designed with this ugly Metro hell and will fail completely.
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#63
JorgeA

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The only somewhat logical explanation I can think of it that they believe we're only going to be using tablets and phones starting this year.


this is Microsofts logic, but this is wrong. here is why:

They see that PC sales drop or stay the same but Tablet sales increase. Now they made the MISTAKE: Business economics only accepts endless growing, but todays PC are so powerful that you can use them for 3-5 years. So the users buy tablets as ADDITIONAL devices, NOT AS REPLACEMENTS!!!!!!!! This is why Windows 8 was completely wrong designed with this ugly Metro hell and will fail completely.

Excellent point, Andre! :thumbup

Microsoft's obsession with making it in the tablet market -- and its subsequent move to drag its customers into a tablet OS -- is truly a case of the tablet tail wagging the PC dog. If we look at the raw figures for units sold in 2011, we see that, for all the hype about tablets, PC sales were MORE THAN FIVE TIMES those of tablets. It would take 1) continued skyrocketing tablet sales (a speculative projection) and 2) a catastrophic decline in PC sales (which has never happened) for tablets to even catch up to PCs. And yet Microsoft would have us believe that tablets are the future, and so we must all adjust to an environment designed for the 10-inch screen.

Far too many news reports misleadingly focus on percentages of change rather than actual unit sales, which leaves the public with the impression that the underpowered and underfeatured tablet is killing off the desktop PC.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 28 January 2012 - 10:03 AM.


#64
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censorship of negative feedback

I thought it might have been that you said something a bit extreme but it looks like you're right. They most definitely are censoring comments. Even the calm, non-threatening, level-headed kind.

"We're open to comments -- so long as it says what we want to hear". Next they'll claim that they're getting "overwhelmingly positive feedback about Metro" :puke: Too bad it won't translate into sales I guess (besides the forced kind, where you have to use downgrade rights to get a sane OS, while still counting in their stats showing it's selling great)
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#65
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I think that the basic mistake is to attempt to find a on-size-fits-all-solution (actually making a single product and then convince everyone that it is the "rigth product" for them).

I mean, you know how dinosaurish I am, but the usage paradigm in a business office has not changed much in the last 20 (twenty years) or more, a typical employee will have before him/her a screen, and he/she has to input in it some data, little matters if the object is a business letter, an e-mail or some data in a "vertical" dedicated program, and most of the time what they have before them is nothing but a "thin client" or a terminal to a server.
They won't *need* anything more than a plain video card and display and a keyboard, even the mouse is something mostly unneeded. (just for your interest a few years ago I tested in the same office side by side a good ol' "DOS like" accounting program with it's Windows counterpart and almost everyone that used them was happier about the easyness of the workflow with just the keyboard and a few F keys)
Same goes for another vast category of non-graphical professionals, writers, solicitors, technicians, programmers (of non-graphical apps), etc., etc.
Then there will be the professionals, architects, designers, graphical artists, programmers that need each and every CPU cycle, byte of RAM, pixel number and colour shade, and responsiveness they can get (and even more), AND need a stable OS, a very secure filesystem and backup/redundancy reliable solutions.
Then there are the gamers that need if possible even more juice than the above, but couldn't care the least about secure filesystems, permissions, quotas, etc.
On the other hand, if you are on the move you might actually want to have a portable solution, touch and what not, notwthstanding my dinosaurish approach I bought in 1993 or 1994 a Compaq Concerto, tablet with pen (and keyboard) and found it at the time a perfect business solution on the move.
Then there are the "grandmothers", they have three main uses:
  • read/write e-mails to/from their relatives and friends
  • watch photos and (lousy videos) of their nephews
  • search on the internet something (textual) they may be interested in
And finally there are the kids (the few that are not in the gamers group ), they want multimedia (and very little more), and as long as they can get a lousy video from Youtube in low resolution they are OK.

To name a known competitor, the Ipad is IMHO the perfect thing, though overpowered, for grannies, the perfect thing, though underpowered, for kids, and completely UNLIKE useful to any of the other "profiles".

jaclaz

#66
MagicAndre1981

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censorship of negative feedback

I thought it might have been that you said something a bit extreme but it looks like you're right. They most definitely are censoring comments. Even the calm, non-threatening, level-headed kind.


yes, the b8 blog is extreme censorship. I wonder that some complains about Ribbons were not deleted because a lot of users like the Aero Ribbons from Office 2010 much more:

Posted Image

Look at the mock-up from an user who commented there. This look 1000% times better.

"We're open to comments -- so long as it says what we want to hear". Next they'll claim that they're getting "overwhelmingly positive feedback about Metro" :puke:


that's exactly what MS wants and that's why they have their Most Valuable Brown Noser program. Those users you like everything from MS just to be (re-)awarded. This reminds me of the Simpson S08E21 where Mr Burns lost all his money because his layers only said that he did everything right by buying totally useless stocks.

That is how Sinosfky thinks about feedback. He only accepts what he wants to hear, nothing else. He did this in Office and also did this in Win7 and now in Windows 8 :realmad:
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#67
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jaclaz,

Excellent analysis, right on target.

Microsoft does seem to be trying to be all things to all people. Can't blame them for that. But if they are wise, they'll achieve their goal by offering both the Metro and Desktop interfaces and letting the customer decide which of them we're going to default to.

Very interesting to hear about your office experiment with Windows vs. DOS-like programs! I've always wondered: if they had figured out (or created) a simple way to use 64MB (or 512MB or 4GB) in DOS, then would Windows today be a niche market like the Mac. Was it really technically impossible to engineer DOS so that it could address large amounts of memory?

--JorgeA

#68
jaclaz

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Very interesting to hear about your office experiment with Windows vs. DOS-like programs! I've always wondered: if they had figured out (or created) a simple way to use 64MB (or 512MB or 4GB) in DOS, then would Windows today be a niche market like the Mac. Was it really technically impossible to engineer DOS so that it could address large amounts of memory?

DOS in this case is only a "short-name", DOS-like (in the sense of no graphical nonsense for non-graphical use) is a more correct definition, the test I was talking about was running on NT or 2K machines, the app was running in a window, with a DOS-like interface.

For NO apparent reason:
http://www.baara.com/q10/

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#69
JorgeA

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DOS in this case is only a "short-name", DOS-like (in the sense of no graphical nonsense for non-graphical use) is a more correct definition, the test I was talking about was running on NT or 2K machines, the app was running in a window, with a DOS-like interface.

jaclaz,

Thanks for pointing out the distinction. Originally I had typed "Windows vs. DOS programs," but then changed it to "DOS-like programs" for that very reason. ;)

BTW, speaking of graphical nonsense, many years ago (I think it was about 1987) when CompuServe used to publish a monthly print magazine, I remember reading an article about a research study showing that PC users had a higher average IQ than Apple users. Immediately I thought that it must have something to do with the command-line interface vs. the graphical user interface... :whistle:

For NO apparent reason:
http://www.baara.com/q10/

Wow, how DO you find these things? I'll have to try this out.

--JorgeA

#70
jaclaz

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Wow, how DO you find these things?


I don't think you really want to know that. :whistle:

http://www.911cd.net...pic=16534&st=23
the explanation given there does not apply to Q10, this may:
http://texteditors.o....pl?EditorIndex

And the good Mac guys are not as dumb as you might think ;) , actually the origin is likely to come from them:
http://www.hogbaysof...ducts/writeroom

Ideas/inspirations are exchanged between the Windows and the Mac (and the Linux) guys, some more examples:
http://they.misled.us/dark-room
http://www.codealche....com/jdarkroom/
http://writer.bighugelabs.com/

But again, someone here may be old enough :ph34r: to remember Qedit (q.exe):
http://texteditors.o...n/wiki.pl?QEDIT
possibly the best DOS text editor EVER :thumbup

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 01 February 2012 - 01:10 PM.


#71
MagicAndre1981

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Microsoft does seem to be trying to be all things to all people. Can't blame them for that. But if they are wise, they'll achieve their goal by offering both the Metro and Desktop interfaces and letting the customer decide which of them we're going to default to.


but this doesn't work. You can't have 1 universal thing which works best for all platforms. This doesn't work. Go into your kitchen and look how many different knifes or spoons you have.
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#72
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But again, someone here may be old enough :ph34r: to remember Qedit (q.exe):
http://texteditors.o...n/wiki.pl?QEDIT
possibly the best DOS text editor EVER :thumbup

I'm offended by this. Possibly? Pfft. That's an established FACT. How dare you question this? ;) Seriously, it was fantastic to use in its time (so far ahead of edit, or *shudder* edlin if you want to play the "old enough to remember" game) The only thing I didn't use it for is creating ANSI graphics for BBS'es, in which case something different like TheDraw worked nicely.

You can't have 1 universal thing which works best for all platforms. This doesn't work. Go into your kitchen and look how many different knifes or spoons you have.

Exactly. They chose to force a horrible touch-based interface on all desktop/laptop users, making it suck badly for everyone, just so if we end up buying a Windows phone (because those are popular, right?) we'll already be familiar with the interface. If anything, I think it's just going to hurt them. Yeah, you'll buy a phone which has the exact same interface as the one you very much hate that's already on your PC (they might as well try selling phones by saying they have Vista on them). Or perhaps it's supposed to be for tablets (yes, let's make everyone suffer, for tablets' sake) which probably won't run your existing apps (ARM-based tablets won't) which aren't meant for a touch interface anyway, etc -- and as such offers little to no advantage over an iPad or Android tablet.

that's exactly what MS wants and that's why they have their Most Valuable Brown Noser program. Those users you like everything from MS just to be (re-)awarded.

Well, I can't say I exactly agree with the MVP program. These days there's far too many MVPs (over 4000), and many people awarded with it sometimes seem to not be all that knowledgeable -- just that they spent a LOT of time trying to help others, while being on the right forums. Yes, I've seen some great C# MVPs back then on MS' old newsgroups, but most of the "Windows Expert Consumer" MVPs and the like often fail to impress. It's not a really fair system, where many seem to help just for the MSDN sub, and where many genuinely helpful people just don't get anything.
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#73
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You can't have 1 universal thing which works best for all platforms. This doesn't work. Go into your kitchen and look how many different knifes or spoons you have.

Exactly. They chose to force a horrible touch-based interface on all desktop/laptop users, making it suck badly for everyone, just so if we end up buying a Windows phone (because those are popular, right?) we'll already be familiar with the interface. If anything, I think it's just going to hurt them. Yeah, you'll buy a phone which has the exact same interface as the one you very much hate that's already on your PC (they might as well try selling phones by saying they have Vista on them). Or perhaps it's supposed to be for tablets (yes, let's make everyone suffer, for tablets' sake) which probably won't run your existing apps (ARM-based tablets won't) which aren't meant for a touch interface anyway, etc -- and as such offers little to no advantage over an iPad or Android tablet.

CoffeeFiend (and @MagicAndre),

So, youi're saying that it's not possible (or maybe not practical) to have a Windows 8 that contains both the Metro and Desktop interfaces, yet allows the user to choose which of them will show on their screen when they boot into Windows?

If it has to be "one or the other, but not both," then of course I prefer the Desktop, but I wonder if there isn't room for compromise? How about making Metro like the DOS box -- an environment that stays totally out of the way but you can open it when you want it?

--JorgeA

#74
jaclaz

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If it has to be "one or the other, but not both," then of course I prefer the Desktop, but I wonder if there isn't room for compromise? How about making Metro like the DOS box -- an environment that stays totally out of the way but you can open it when you want it?

Not enough room for compromise, at the most you can have a (lousy) animated assistant, since the Office Assistants, and particularly Clippy :w00t: were bashed for years :ph34r: :
http://www.computerh...on/c/clippy.htm
Posted Image
you can now only choose between Chaos and Scuzz (the other all retired in the meantime)
http://toastytech.com/guis/bob4.html
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#75
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youi're saying that it's not possible (or maybe not practical) to have a Windows 8 that contains both the Metro and Desktop interfaces, yet allows the user to choose which of them will show on their screen when they boot into Windows?

That's what we're all wishing for. That would make Win8 a decent OS (being able to disable Metro and keep the start menu). But at this point it seems very unlikely. We'll know for sure when the beta comes out sometime this month.

If it goes Metro-only, then we'll be able to pretend it didn't happen and keep running Win7 for a few years, or wait 'till they reverse their decision (hopefully). But tut if it happens, we're going to start having a serious look at porting our apps, and moving legacy stuff to vSphere/Citrix, and starting to buy Macs instead whenever possible.
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.




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