[ricktendo]

I dont think Windows 8 will do well on PC's but it sure will give iPad a run for its money

iPad cant beat a full functioning OS in tablet form

[CoffeeFiend]

ricktendo64, on 20 January 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

I dont think Windows 8 will do well on PC's but it sure will give iPad a run for its money

iPad cant beat a full functioning OS in tablet form

I disagree here too. I don't care all that much if a portable device doesn't run most software -- most software isn't built for such an interface and mostly sucks. And I wouldn't want to do most tasks on one (typing text on a touch screen, painting, CAD work, coding, etc). Something like an iPad or an Android tablet (like my Archos) with apps designed for how you use it are far better IMO. And the iPad has such a head start (years, and a 40 million devices lead too, not counting the 70M iPhones sold last year alone) and a large library of decent quality inexpensive apps that I think Windows doesn't stand a chance there. I have zero interest in a Windows tablet myself -- and that's coming from what most people would have called a "Rabid M$ fanboy" until Win8 WDP came out.

Edit: nevermind that a large portion of tablets with Win8 would probably have ARM CPUs too, so no advantages there either. Even using Citrix or remote desktop from a tablet to an instance of a traditional Windows session is a better option in a lot of scenarios.

[JorgeA]

MagicAndre1981, on 20 January 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

And it's not only Ballmer, "Napoleon" Sinosfsky has the largest influence in this suicide. His antisocial behavior (censorship of negative feedback and saying that there is no negative feedback) will be the death of Windows.

Sheez, you're kidding!?! Did he (they) really do that?? Unbelievable...

--JorgeA

[CoffeeFiend]

cluberti, on 20 January 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

the vast majority of the world doesn't use machines like we do

Well, those who don't need that kind of software can get just fine by with a Mac or anything else that doesn't have the Metro disaster on it. My kids could certainly use a Mac as a "facebook computer". It would also work great for playing some music (finally a platform itunes works decently on?) and movies. Add to that the Adobe suite (and proper color/font management too), MS Office for macs (altough MS may Metro-ize MS Office too -- that would complete the suicide process), iWork, iLife, Aperture, ZBrush, Lightroom, Capture One Pro, Capture NX, Bibble, Photomatix, ACDSee, iPhoto, Corel Painter, AutoCAD, Final Cut, VMWare Fusion, Quickbooks, Ableton, Native Instruments, Logic Studio, XCode, etc (and more as time goes on) so it's still possible to get a lot of work done. They even got Steam now...

Windows used to be the OS that let you run the very best software for the job. Now it's actively getting in the way of using that same software by making the desktop a 2nd class citizen Desktops and laptops is all MS had left (Apple and Android essentially has everything else), and now with Metro they're killing that too, by pretending your desktop is like a phone or mp3 player with a 4" touchscreen. Nevermind that Windows Phone and the Zune have been coloassal failures -- now let's make desktops just like those! Windows gave up on what it was good at, and MS is betting the farm on it.

[MagicAndre1981]

JorgeA, on 20 January 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Did he (they) really do that?? Unbelievable...

yes, negative feedback on the B8 Blog is not published and than he said, that there is only a small number of users who don't like it:

"We've seen some small amount of visceral feedback focused on "choice" or "disable"—a natural reaction to change".

Also in Office he used this arrogant way to threat users like idiots if they don't like what he thinks is the best.

[JorgeA]

MagicAndre1981, on 21 January 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

JorgeA, on 20 January 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Did he (they) really do that?? Unbelievable...

yes, negative feedback on the B8 Blog is not published and than he said, that there is only a small number of users who don't like it:

"We've seen some small amount of visceral feedback focused on "choice" or "disable"—a natural reaction to change".

Also in Office he used this arrogant way to threat users like idiots if they don't like what he thinks is the best.

As CoffeeFiend pointed out, the Metro interface hasn't exactly been a resounding success on other devices, and now Sinofsky wants to port it to the PC. Amazing. So the guy seems to have a limited ability to learn from experience. Combine that with the arrogance you report, and we have a toxic mixture.

We (paying customers) will just have to show him who's boss.

--JorgeA

[CoffeeFiend]

JorgeA, on 21 January 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

the Metro interface hasn't exactly been a resounding success on other devices, and now Sinofsky wants to port it to the PC. Amazing. So the guy seems to have a limited ability to learn from experience.

and you get to use unpopular tools to create such apps i.e. XAML (read: a crippled version of WPF or Silverlight, both of which aren't exactly popular in the first place). Or you can use HTML/JS which seems completely pointless: why not just make a website then? That was probably to attract web developers but the vast majority of them despise IE, and don't think too highly of MS either.

Then again, MS is making every single app we've ever written a 2nd class citizen now, giving the finger to all devs. And pushing for more technologies that nobody wants of (e.g. Azure) while abandoning/deprecating many others which we've all been using and relying on for years.

MS is sending a strong message: abandon ship!

[JorgeA]

OK, more impressions about Windows 8.

Tonight I downloaded and installed a bunch of Windows Updates. When the process was finished, I wanted to check the details for each update, knowing that that would take me to the relevant Microsoft page.

Even though I was on the Desktop, IE10 went into what I've learned is called "immersive" mode -- a "clean" screen (read: almost completely lacking in tools, menus and useful browser info) showing the Web page. After reading the description for the first update, I wanted to close the browser... BUT THERE IS NO 'CLOSE' BUTTON.

Trying various things, I discovered an icon toward the bottom right that looks like a Word document logo with the dog-eared corner. Clicked on that, and it gave me two choices: to "find" something, or to go to the Desktop version. After clicking on the latter, I was finally able to close the program altogether. (Or so I thought.)

I also found that if you right-click on the page, you get a crude-looking set of thumbnails across the top, with big black circles and a white X. You can click on those to close the pertinent tab. However, after you click on the last remaining tab, IE10 stays open AND THE 'WORD' ICON NO LONGER TAKES YOU TO THE DESKTOP VERSION, so there is no d*mn way to leave the stupid program!!!

Eventually I figured out that I could get back to Metro by hitting the Windows key, and then back to the desktop by clicking on its Metro tile... so that THEN I could click on the IE icon in the taskbar and THEN at long last click on the red X to close it.

How clunky and awkward is that??? The rational part of my mind tells me that the geniuses at Microsoft MUST have devised some simple way to close the browser, and I simply haven't discovered it.

Next I spent some time poking around in IE10. I went to a safe website (grc.com), since I have no security software installed beyond Windows Defender. One too many right-clicks later, and now I'm not even getting the thumbnails across the top or the search pane or icons across the bottom!! So I can't even leave the website now, let alone the program itself. No function keys or combination of other keys that I've tried, does anything. All I can do is scroll up and down. WAPOS.

All right, clicking on a link took me to a different page, and the stuff across the bottom came back. But I'm still not getting the thumbnails across the top to close them -- not that that would do any good, since no matter what I do (even if I switch it to Desktop view and click on Close), every time I go back to Metro and launch IE it turns out I'm still in grc.com. It looks like in Metro the only way to actually close the program is to go into Task Manager. Un&^%$#@^^^believable.

Oh, and after killing the process, next time I clicked on IE in Metro I was taken to the last page I had visited, rather than to a homepage (not that I could tell where to adjust those settings, if there is even a way).

There's a heck of a lot of room for improvement in the Windows 8 beta version.

--JorgeA

[cluberti]

Well, considering one of the omissions in the developer preview was the ability to close metro apps (known issue, gesture support wasn't completed until a later build) and quite a few IE and other app menus were not fully built or finalized, the fact you had these specific issues with metro IE was expected. TAP customers have had a later build (two, in fact, I believe) and they are much more complete. Yes, the developer preview needed some work, but that was also well known - this build was for developers to start getting exposure and experience writing to WinRT and for metro, not as a general-purpose test OS.

[JorgeA]

cluberti, on 22 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Well, considering one of the omissions in the developer preview was the ability to close metro apps (known issue, gesture support wasn't completed until a later build) and quite a few IE and other app menus were not fully built or finalized, the fact you had these specific issues with metro IE was expected. TAP customers have had a later build (two, in fact, I believe) and they are much more complete. Yes, the developer preview needed some work, but that was also well known - this build was for developers to start getting exposure and experience writing to WinRT and for metro, not as a general-purpose test OS.

cluberti,

Thank you for the explanations. One hopes that most of these issues have been or will be taken care of.

I had a chance to dig a little deeper into Win8 today. For instance, I tried downloading and installing (or using directly) some programs I use on other PCs, to see what happened with them on the Metro start screen. Firefox did show up -- albeit as just a small, mostly green rectangle at the far end of the screen, though I could drag it over to the initial screenful for quicker access. Then I was able to type "msert" for the Microsoft Safety Scanner (I deliberately chose a program that doesn't actually get "installed"), and I got a new screen with the filename that I could then click on. Finally, a welcome feature is the inclusion of a number of important OS utilities on the last screenful.

So, some of my concerns have been allayed. It looks like I can still do most of my work in the Desktop, as clearly one purpose of the Start screen is to replace the previous Start Menu. But then that leads to a new concern, which is that I don't necessarily want to begin my Windows session with the Start Menu (in effect) on display. I would prefer to start off with my clean, neat desktop and then decide if I even want to go into Start: as a paying customer, I may, or may not, wish to begin receiving news updates, weather reports, and stock tickers as soon as Windows finishes loading.

And that leads to another issue, which you may be in a position to answer: Is there a way to suspend (not unpin, not remove, but simply stop or close down) the continuous updating of stock prices? The constant movement in that tile is distracting and annoying.

Last question (for now, anyway ): What is a "TAP customer"?

Thanks again.

--JorgeA

[vinifera]

I don't like it simply because they ruined the concept of serious OS

if we go back to Whistler, many disliked that next version (XP) would look so painted and ugly
and naturally Vista followed

I greet skinning with open arms, and think that OS should indeed look more nicer than just plain old gray flat panel look
but there should be line drawn to what is serious and efficient

now comes 8 that turns workstation into child playground
seriously Metro is beginning of crapiness
this move doesn't make user focus on OS and/or how to use it but to most lazy ineffective cluttered UI to which even biggest id*** will praise but still
because its Windows OS that will need HUGE maintainance and thus such user will complain for various stuff as it always goes with windows os...

now many complain how start menu is crap and how this start screen is sooo much better
well who says that start menu's function was even that of start screen in 1st place ?
AFAIK and this goes since 95 era, start menu always showed all installed programs and additional features (accesability, system tools, networking etc...)
start screen does not

and what is even worse its ran upon IE which makes IE again needed to be in core of OS

the next thing they brag about is faster search... doh there were great and better alternatives to this since ~2005
take UltraSearch for example, it reads directly from MFT - no need for databases or indexing or whatnot...
and manipulates with files like you do from within File manager aka Explorer

to me that they make Tablet UI OS for desktop is ridiculous, as much as I hate to say "apple got it right", but they did
Desktop workstation and Tablet deserve separate OS-es, or atleast same OS core with UI that is made for specifically desktop or tablet

now with all this web social bull s*** integrated, the OS concept goes even more worse...
I just couldn't believe when Ballmer on last conference sold all that crap to people how all people he knows are now so "close to him"
how virtual life and life are same

I mean c'mon...

sure technology and OS-es need to evolve but this is not the way...

instead to patch NT holes they have they focus on... well I won't even describe it

This post has been edited by vinifera: 25 January 2012 - 08:43 PM

[CoffeeFiend]

@vinifera: exactly my thoughts

Who cares if the users have the best, fantastic "Win32" software library for everything, which is what made Windows what it is today? Let's make this (its only advantage) an afterthought by turning it all into "legacy" software, and then putting heavy focus on gimmicky smartphone-like apps, along with a blocky touch UI that isn't meant for for a desktop or laptop, killing the start menu in the process and making the desktop and its Win32 apps a 2nd class citizen?

That will go over well... (hopefully I didn't break anyone's sarcasm meter)

[jaclaz]

Usually people learn from history (and past mistakes).
It seems like this is not the case, anyone old enough to remember this?
http://toastytech.com/guis/bob.html
and yes, they should have ALSO been publicly whipped (40 lashes ) for the most gratuitious use of adjective "scrumptious" :
http://www.merriam-w...ary/scrumptious
since 1925 :

Quote

"Oh! Buy how scrumptious."

http://gutenberg.net...s07/0700911.txt

jaclaz

[MagicAndre1981]

jaclaz, on 26 January 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

It seems like this is not the case, anyone old enough to remember this?
http://toastytech.com/guis/bob.html

When I first saw that Metro nightmare I also thought MS Bob is back

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 26 January 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

Usually people learn from history (and past mistakes).
It seems like this is not the case, anyone old enough to remember this?
http://toastytech.com/guis/bob.html
jaclaz

jaclaz,

Thanks for these links. Back in the day I never heard of Microsoft Bob and totally missed it. (I stayed on my Windows for Workgroups 3.11 PC till 2002.) What a ridiculous idea!!

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 26 January 2012 - 10:37 AM

[Win2k3EE]

Windows 8 SUX! Plain and simple! The productivity is ZERO. The "tile home screen" is for phones NOT for PC! Sinofsky has a PC at home? It seems not...

[MagicAndre1981]

Win2k3EE, on 27 January 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Sinofsky has a PC at home? It seems not...

looks so. Best would be that ALL MS employees who say Metro is fine should through Mouse7keyboard out of the Window and use touch Monitor 8 hours at work. After 1 day they can't move their arm any longer and understand that this is crap.

This post has been edited by MagicAndre1981: 27 January 2012 - 01:47 PM

[JorgeA]

MagicAndre1981, on 27 January 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Win2k3EE, on 27 January 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Sinofsky has a PC at home? It seems not...

looks so. Best would be that ALL MS employees who say Metro is fine should through Mouse7keyboard out of the Window and use touch Monitor 8 hours at work. After 1 day they can't move their arm any longer and understand that this is crap.

LOL

[MagicAndre1981]

but it's true. Apple made a study and came to the conclusion that Working touch only on PCs is an ergonomic disaster. So making a GUI which is made for touch is useless on the desktop. That's why they made iOS and have not updated the MacOSX with a touch UI:

[CoffeeFiend]

MagicAndre1981, on 27 January 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Apple made a study and came to the conclusion that Working touch only on PCs is an ergonomic disaster.

a.k.a. gorilla arm syndrome and poor usability, yeah. I'm not even sure why you'd need a fancy study for something that seems fairly obvious.

MagicAndre1981, on 27 January 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

So making a GUI which is made for touch is useless on the desktop. That's why they made iOS and have not updated the MacOSX with a touch UI:

Now if only MS got this... I mean, I never complained too badly about the UI of MS apps in general. Some of it sucked, and some of it was pretty good (e.g. introducing the start menu in Win95, or the new search in it lately). But Metro is a disaster, plain and simple. The only somewhat logical explanation I can think of it that they believe we're only going to be using tablets and phones starting this year. There's no way they thought anyone would want to use this on a desktop or laptop.