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Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


JorgeA

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You can also witness again the amazing memory problems Microsoft's ad department has.

[...]

There are far more stats and data in the article. The notion that this stuff wasn't tracked at that time is ridiculous.

Another proof how deranged "NuMicrosoft" got.

Thanks for the investigative work, you really punctured MSFT's balloon of hot air.

Spread the news far and wide!

--JorgeA

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Windows 8 Benchmark Records No Longer Accepted At HWBOT - Benchmark Result Veracity Compromised

If I get it right Tiles no longer syncs with hardware RTC (for compatibility with the cheap toys that lack it), and system time accuracy goes belly up whenever you underclock or overclock from Windows, thus compromising benchmarking.

:yes: Yes, this is a big story that is just breaking. Only a couple of places have it so far that I have seen ...

Windows 8 PC benchmark scores banned from HWBOT database ( NeoWin 2013-08-19 )

Benchmarking Site Bans Windows 8 Results Over Broken Real Time Clock ( Maximum PC 2013-08-19 )

"As the result of weekend-time research, the HWBOT staff has decided to invalidate all benchmark records established with the Windows 8 operating system. Due to severe validity problems with the Windows8 real time clock ('RTC'), benchmarks results achieved with Windows 8 cannot be trusted," HWBOT said. "The main problem lies with the RTC being affected when over- or underclocking under the operating system. The operating system uses the RTC as reference clock, and benchmarks use it to reference (benchmark) time."

Thing is, it looks like it is not just Metro :no: Look at the following video and you see it tested on the desktop therefore is at the Windows core itself ...

What it looks like is that Windows is no longer referencing the RTC at all, and the reason given is that Windows 8 being installed on all manner of devices including those without a RTC means they are flying by the seat of their pants on all devices. In other words, it is another case where the OS ignores the desktop/laptop majority in favor of code optimized for mobile devices.

These aren't minor miscalculations, either. According to HWBOT's testing, underclocking the base frequency by 6 percent can throw off the clock by 18 seconds after just 5 minutes have elapsed.

Microsoft has been contacted but no word has yet been received. Perhaps we can now name this OS disaster Windows RTC :lol:

I'll tell you what, this is going to be a big thing for several reasons. Supposedly Windows 8.1 Blew has already been RTM'd so they have missed that important window to include a bug fix for wide distribution. But even if they had caught it before RTM, there is no guarantee everyone is going to upgrade anyway. Furthermore, what the heck are they gonna say to administrators of expensive server editions running mission critical tasks? "Sorry" just ain't gonna cut it. It will take a couple of weeks to determine how far this mistake has percolated, how many core functions of Windows have been affected ( probably everything including timestamps of files and event log entries ). Even Xbox using Windows 8.x whatever may be affected. Frankly this is an unbelievable mistake, indicating testing by amateurs. Considering how the world was turned upside down by the various Intel bugs I don't see Microsoft walking away from this unscathed. For all practical purposes they have broken the nearly perfect reputation of NT as a bombproof kernel. And they did this by doing exactly what they were warned against - blending workstation, server and mobile into a single being.

This is gonna be interesting indeed.

EDIT: extra chars removed, added quote

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot
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These are all threads from hardcore veteran "Enthusiast" sites ...

Windows 8 banned by worlds top benchmarking and overclocking site ( ExtremeTech 2013-08-19 )

Windows 8 Benchmark Records No Longer Accepted At HWBOT / RTC clock bug in windows 8 ( Overclock.net 2013-08-18 )

HWBot bans Windows 8 over RTC flaw ( Bit-Tech.net 2013-08-19 )

HWBot No Longer Accepts Record Submissions from Windows 8 ( TechPowerUp 2013-08-18 )

Windows 8 is broken (RTC) ( OverClockersClub 2013-08-18 )

HWBot is a massive online database of benchmark records, covering most of the major benchmarking tools, such as 3DMark, PCMark, and SuperPi. Users submit their benchmarks, moderators check their results, and then people are awarded points or trophies depending on how they rank.

Another excerpt ...

In almost every modern computer, theres a real-time clock (RTC) that keeps accurate track of the time even when the computer is turned off. Usually this is done through some kind of package on the main logic board that just sits there, quietly ticking away the seconds. In modern computers, the RTC is often built into the southbridge.

[...]

The RTC, due to its implemented-in-hardware nature, is very useful for providing a baseline for benchmarks. Unlike software, which can be easily meddled with or affected by outside influences, the RTC in your PC as the name suggests is designed to keep pace with real-world time.

Some more ...

Unfortunately, though, Windows 8's RTC isnt reliable. According to HWBot, Microsoft made some changes to Windows 8's timekeeping routines to allow for low-cost devices and embedded systems that dont always have a conventional PC-compatible RTC. HWBot doesnt give specific details (presumably were talking really low-level kernel stuff here), but it proves its point with some damning empirical evidence. Basically, if you change your CPU base clock (BCLK) frequency in software (not at boot time), it has a massive impact on Windows 8's ability to keep accurate time.

Only NuMicrosoft could figure out a way to break a most basic function of an operating system. We have always had problems with drift, crystals are not perfect nor are human engineered batteries and caps, but it was mere seconds lost or gained over many months and years. Microsoft has indeed surpassed all expectations now by creating an elaborate Relativity experiment even Einstein himself would marvel at.

Place identical, equally overclocked or underclocked PC's side by side running Windows 7 and Windows 8 respectively and you have yourself a stationary case of the Twin's Paradox with no need of massive physical acceleration whatsoever to achieve time-travel! Someone in Redmond deserves a Nobel Prize.

qzNKf2d.png

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From one of the commenters at ExtremeTech comes a pretty good explanation of what's going on. He is responding to a typical MetroTard who said: "I'm sorry, but I've been using Windows 8 since the previews on multiple machines and haven't noticed any problems. And I use these machines heavily for gaming, programming, video editing, etc. I can't help but think this is totally overblown." :lol: In other words, "Hey, You must be doing it wrong! My Angry Birds works just fine!".

It isn't and it varies depending on hardware, but even the MS employee acknowledged it's an issue.

The DPC latency and RTC problems are independent of each other, but there's a single reason for the both of them: overly aggressive powersaving features.

The RTC not "ticking" allows certain hardware to sit in deep sleep. This in turn decreases battery life on mobile devices by a good amount. All good, right? Well, not so fast. For workstations and servers that are time sensitive, it can be a significant problem. With the rise of software overclocking, many folks just don't bother with BIOS fiddling anymore, but that's exactly the sort of tweaking that causes problems with Win8's RTC. Now imagine if you were running a home server with timestamped information and you decreased voltage and clock to decrease power consumption and heat. And what if you were running a time-sensitive application on your Win8 workstation that you overclocked for more performance? The decrease in power consumption isn't a freebie, and presents some potentially serious issues for non-mobile Win8 users.

The DPC latency issue is still very much around. This, too, was done to decrease power consumption of the entire platform by forcing sleep/idle, but for a good portion of folks it's also increased the latency significantly and caused audio to go out of whack or snap, crackle, and pop. Again, for desktop and workstation folks - especially those doing any sort of professional audio/video - this becomes a huge issue. Bear in mind that Windows has historically always had second-rate DPC latency when compared to Apple's OSes, but now it's gotten even worse.

These are all symptoms of an underlying problem. While many folks may not see them, it certainly doesn't mean they aren't there and nor are they symptoms that can be overlooked. These are symptoms of MS's push into mobile and just what they had to sacrifice in order to get Windows onto a tablet.

People tend to focus on the Metro interface and argue their sides' points relentlessly but they overlook or ignore the other positives and negatives that makes Windows 8. Unfortunately for us desktop/workstation folk, there are a lot more negatives than there are positives and some of those sacrifices made to get Win8 to tablets are too large and too many to ignore.


It looks like Microsoft has decoupled the core Windows 8 time routines from the RTC for the purposes of allowing mobile device components to sleep, in effect changing everything from a polling system locked to a common realtime into a floating virtual system where time is fluid. Truly Einsteinian!

In fact, it would be simple to diagram a real bad scenario where BCLK underclocking would push the clock back ( 18 seconds in only 5 minutes in the linked article ) so in very short order your event log will have entries that are out of order by time and unless they are serialized this will be a mess that cannot be unraveled. But far worse will be timestamps on files and even NTFS journaling which frankly means the operating system is useless.

Even if I haven't described it perfectly correct, one thing is for sure, Workstations and Servers have once again fallen victim to Mobile concerns, as did Aero and other features. The idi0tic ideas from the planners at Microsoft have demonstrated once again that they are developing for the least important use case, forsaking the entire rich history of Windows for the trendy and fleeting market of hipsters. This is a cellphone operating system, plain and simple. Gluing it together with a Workstation is unimaginably stoopid if by doing so you break the Workstation in order to allow the cellphone to operate.

If they designed cars, all models would be tiny little high-mileage sh!tmobiles that are so fragile they break if you bump into them and kill the passengers in the smallest accident. One experience for all, indeed.

And what did they gain again from this fiasco? 3% marketshare in phones! 300,000 Surfaces versus 14.6 million iPads sold last quarter! Worldwide hatred from their core supporters!

It is all playing out exactly as we have said in this thread from the beginning and from what many others have said all over the Internet.

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Supposedly Windows 8.1 Blew has already been RTM'd so they have missed that important window to include a bug fix for wide distribution. But even if they had caught it before RTM, there is no guarantee everyone is going to upgrade anyway.

Windows 8.1 has not been RTM yet. It is likely it will be after this August 23rd date in this "report"

http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-81-final-internal-testing-date-is-august-23rd-rtm-to-follow

Its a misnomer (sic) in these articles that refer to MS as "shipping" stuff to OEMs. They don't ship anything anymore by default like they used to. If after something hits RTM you can special order it on physical media, but there is a delay of a few weeks. I don't know why anyone would need to order it since you can just download everything and make your own DVDs and CDs.

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3DMark and Windows 8 RTC: Official Futuremark Response

"... Before panicking, it is worth clarifying that the exploit described by HWBot has no practical benefit for hardware manufacturers or PC gamers since it only serves to create a false score that does not reflect actual performance. Furthermore, the steps required to exploit this issue are quite unusual and could not be happened upon by accident ..."

h87cn.jpg

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3DMark and Windows 8 RTC: Official Futuremark Response

"... Before panicking, it is worth clarifying that the exploit described by HWBot has no practical benefit for hardware manufacturers or PC gamers since it only serves to create a false score that does not reflect actual performance. Furthermore, the steps required to exploit this issue are quite unusual and could not be happened upon by accident ..."

h87cn.jpg

When I saw the picture but before absorbing the text, I thought it was supposed to be Ballmer assuring stockholders that Windows 8 sales are not disastrous!

--JorgeA

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NSA surveillance may be starting to have a chilling effect on Net speech and activism:

Surveillance concerns bring an end to crusading site Groklaw

Citing concerns about privacy and government surveillance, Pamela Jones is shutting down her site Groklaw, which for years took on what she and vocal fans saw as wrongheaded legal action in the tech domain.

"There is now no shield from forced exposure," Jones said in final blog post Tuesday. Groklaw depended on collaboration over e-mail, "and there is now no private way, evidently, to collaborate."

--JorgeA

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