JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

6,162 posts in this topic

I am astounded the huge amount of bad-will among their customers these companies are willing to produce for smallish additional profits. Let's take the region lock for StarCraft 2 for example.

The bigger outcry was over lack of LAN play. Supposedly it was over piracy but you needed to log onto Battle.net to authenticate anyway for the other offline portion, the campaign. The campaign even works offline after authentication. The only ramification is achievements don't work.

Industry sycophants downplay the lack of LAN play but the problem is that Blizzard doesn't make available offline or even private server editions for tournament play, which is an enormous part of the StarCraft ecosystem. It's embarrassing to be watching a hot match broadcasted to hundreds of thousands only to see the screen gray out with a message that connection has been lost. It should be noted that tournaments pay Blizzard for site licenses, so customized tournament play is not an unreasonable request.

D3 created even more bad will by combining all the disadvantages of online play (lag, disconnects, rubber-banding, hacking, account issues) with all the disadvantages of offline play (poor social support, limited overall multi-player experience). The game was essentially built around the real money auction house, which I doubt generated anywhere near the "WoW replacement" revenue they were probably hoping for.

And these are the "good" games they make, along with the latest CoD DLC which everyone buys only because it's required to keep playing with their friends.

The bottom line is they aren't listening to what WE the consumer want who actually go out and BUY their product. It's a sad day when companies could care less what their buying public is asking for.

What bugs me about this is that industry journalism, both in the games and PC industries, play all this off as a "down market". Professional writers won't even consider that decreased value is the driver behind declining revenues. Big-name development on the PC is way down, and all the consoles are 7+ years old. On top of that, games are intentionally being designed with less value to be made up via DLC and microtransactions. Finally, there are too many FPSes and not everybody likes them. But, sure, blame lack of demand.

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And now, for the ultimate lobotomized device:

Jeff Bezos’ new patent envisions tablets without processors, batteries

It seems like everyone is trying to jump on the cloud computing bandwagon, but Amazon Chairman and CEO Jeff Bezos wants to take it to a whole new level. GeekWire reports that he and Gregory Hart have filed a patent for "remote displays" that would get data and power from a centrally located "primary station." The tablets or e-readers would simply be screens, and the need for a large internal battery or significant local processing power would theoretically be obviated by the primary station.

Great, a brainless device that's 100% dependent on a central computer somewhere. You as a little cog in a giant machine that keeps tabs on you as you passively accept whatever They deem it fit for you to see:

The full patent is an interesting read, since it presents other potential use cases for these "remote displays" that wouldn't necessarily need to wait on this theoretical fully wireless future-tablet to come to pass. For example: a camera or sensor could detect when a hand is passed over an e-reader display and respond by turning the page. A touch-sensitive casing could detect when a child is handling a display by measuring things like the length and width of their fingers and then disable purchasing of new content or the ability to access "inappropriate" content.

Imagine the privacy implications of this. Tech is sounding increasingly like some 1950s science fiction movie.

--JorgeA

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Great, a brainless device that's 100% dependent on a central computer somewhere. You as a little cog in a giant machine that keeps tabs on you as you passively accept whatever They deem it fit for you to see:

Well, as a matter of fact we have had this for years, it is called "television". :whistle:

It's interesting while the manufacturers made TV sets into (Linux running) PC's, someone is going to dumb down back the terminal. :)

JFYI:

http://reboot.pro/topic/9915-the-good-thing-is-that-engineers-never-stop-to-surprise-me/

jaclaz

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Nice stats. Netapplications counts Metro-IE and Windows RT separate ("Windows 8 touch" and "Windows RT Touch") and those statistics are absolutely pathetic:

Windows 8 Touch 0.12%

Windows 8 RT Touch 0.02%

That shows that Windows 8's market performance on tablets is garbage, despite all the marketing dollars (and the created bad-will among customers). Rendering the whole point of Microsoft's W8 strategy pointless. Such pathetic numbers are not even considered as a beachhead.

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The Win8 adaption rate gets lower each month and is so much slower compared to Vista.

This is not really "good news" for a "supporter" of Vista :ph34r: .

The data can be read in terms of "diifferential interest" over the "previous OS" :whistle: .

Vista :ph34r: -> slow rate as perceived as not much an improvement over XP

7 -> fast rate as perceived as lots of improvements over Vista :ph34r:

8 -> slow rate as perceived as not much an improvement over 7

Though we all know how 7 is a further Service Pack to Vista :ph34r: actually bettering it and 8 is a further Service Pack actually MUCH worsening it (at least when it comes to interface).

;)

jaclaz

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Great, a brainless device that's 100% dependent on a central computer somewhere. You as a little cog in a giant machine that keeps tabs on you as you passively accept whatever They deem it fit for you to see:

Well, as a matter of fact we have had this for years, it is called "television". :whistle:

The trouble (if I read the article right) is that this new device would be controlled by a single provider -- Amazon or whoever. At least with over-the-air TV you can tune to different channels from separate sources.

GeekWire reports that he and Gregory Hart have filed a patent for "remote displays" that would get data and power from a centrally located "primary station."

And then of course this new device would be monitoring us as we're watching it.

--JorgeA

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Looks like even Neowin is slipping from the metrotards slowly but surely.

Look at this thread:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1144716-just-how-many-people-hate-windows-8/

Lots of "haters". Had to laugh at this eightard comment:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1144716-just-how-many-people-hate-windows-8/page__view__findpost__p__595610938

No, there's a difference between constructive criticism and what we get here on Neowin. I'm happy to discuss the good and bad points of Windows 8 in a constructive manner but I can't think of a single thread where that has actually happened. Just like this thread, the discussion instantly degenerates into moaning about perceived problems that are based on opinions presented as facts. Fake complaints such as the one about Windows 8 not working with a keyboard and mouse are discussed interminably alongside boring arguments about how hard it is to click on a tile. This site has just become an echo chamber for the haters.

This thread is about the fact that Windows 8 has more positive reviews than negative on Amazon and how that compares to other versions of Windows. Unfortunately that contradicts the arguments (and in some cases the agendas) of a number of people here and as a result they choose to discuss imaginary complaints instead. This thread isn't about constructive criticism, it's about drowning out dissenting opinion.

Wow, Neowin is turning into a W8-hate site? Are the shills on vacation?

By the way, Windows 8's Amazon page must be the shilliest on Amazon by far. A flood of three-sentence, five-star first time reviewers appears every time, when the right bar ("Most Recent Customer Reviews") is filled with negative reviews. That technique is known as burying.

Edited by Formfiller
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And then of course this new device would be monitoring us as we're watching it.

Yea, the telescreen is coming. Nice touch that even the power is controlled from a remote location. Yummy.

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The trouble (if I read the article right) is that this new device would be controlled by a single provider -- Amazon or whoever. At least with over-the-air TV you can tune to different channels from separate sources.

Well, this option/possibility is relatively recent in many countries, and I presume that it is still the "norm" in some :ph34r:

If you prefer it is a lot like a "back to the past".

To give you an example, in Italy (which has been a democracy since WW2) until the 1980's there were just three channels (all "national" i.e. controlled/provided by the government), actually only 1 between 1954 and 1961, 2 between 1961 and 1975, in 1975 the control passed from the government to the parliament, but from this to "plurality", especially related to News, it has been a looong way.

jaclaz

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ROFLCOPTER:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1144716-just-how-many-people-hate-windows-8/page__view__findpost__p__595611294

>...but now she loves it and even defends it when her friends and/or family talk bad about the metro aspect of it lol.

the fact that this even comes up in conversations with friends and/or family means that Microsoft did it's job right. I have used windows since wayyyyy back when, and never have I had conversations with friends and family members about any other version other then 'yeah, check out the new OS'. Now, I have older family members asking specifics, what is really different, what about this boxes on the screen, etc.

Win, imo.

Pathetic. There were no conversations before because everybody was generally fine with it. Not so with W8 apparently. Having heated discussion about a Windows version with friends and family is a win? People being confused about the interface is a win?

Another gem from this chap:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1144716-just-how-many-people-hate-windows-8/page__view__findpost__p__595611122

I think that the time will come when it will be forced upon folks. heck, look at all the technology changes that have been forced on folks beta, 8 track, vhs, old computer screens, atari joysticks paddles, yadda yadda legacy hardware that is obsolete and while you can dig it up in your parents or your basement in a box, doesn't mean it is still viable or able to really be used with today's technology (simple analogy, but sticks based on showing hardware changes).

Utter garbage. How were these technologies forced in the way metro in W8 is? Was VHS introduced by making all newer beta players suddenly work with VHS, and only playing VHS tapes flawlessly, while garbling the output when playing beta tapes? Because that's the way the metro/desktop split is done in W8.

And when all else fails:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1144716-just-how-many-people-hate-windows-8/page__view__findpost__p__595612296

It is simpler than that. The majority of folks that claim they hate it or dislike it never really give specifics, or claim the way ONE app works, or the lack of a start menu (when the whole front page is the start menu built into the OS), kills all of the OS.

No one faults folks for not liking it, they fault the crazy ways they pick one small thing, or off the wall internet 'sky is falling' hatred that is obviously the product of a well honed anti-marketing campaign.

This always comes up as the last eightard resort. Battled enough of them on Channel9 and hardforum.com to know. After they get bombarded with W8 issues, they brush it off with "tl;dr" or just plain ignore it and continue to play the "no one is giving any valid reasons.." charade one week later. His last point (anti-marketing-campaign) is something I encounter quite often with MS employees when they talk about W8. "Biased press, they are all just haterz".

Edited by Formfiller
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It is simpler than that. The majority of folks that claim they hate it or dislike it never really give specifics, or claim the way ONE app works, or the lack of a start menu (when the whole front page is the start menu built into the OS), kills all of the OS.

No one faults folks for not liking it, they fault the crazy ways they pick one small thing, or off the wall internet 'sky is falling' hatred that is obviously the product of a well honed anti-marketing campaign.

This always comes up as the last eightard resort. Battled enough of them on Channel9 and hardforum.com to know. After they get bombarded with W8 issues, they brush it off with "tl;dr" or just plain ignore it and continue to play the "no one is giving any valid reasons.." charade one week later. His last point (anti-marketing-campaign) is something I encounter quite often with MS employees when they talk about W8. "Biased press, they are all just haterz".

This comment was particularly laughable. Reading through the bulk of these Windows 8 debates, reality is almost exactly the opposite: the mass of pro-Win8 comments are of the "it's new and cool and you're just a hater" type, whereas the anti-Win8 comments tend to be more specific and reasoned. There are exceptions on both sides of course, but IMO any kind of objective evaluation of a random sample of comments would show this to be the case. That's why over here the Win8 fans have been tagged as children even if they're not -- because childish are the type of "arguments" they offer.

--JorgeA

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By the way, Windows 8's Amazon page must be the shilliest on Amazon by far. A flood of three-sentence, five-star first time reviewers appears every time, when the right bar ("Most Recent Customer Reviews") is filled with negative reviews. That technique is known as burying.

Interesting, I hadn't heard that term.

And the observation about those three-sentence "reviews" goes to what you were saying that I commented on in the post just above this one, about the standard of thinking that all-too-often goes into Win8 fandom.

--JorgeA

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A generally pro-Windows 8 but fair commentary that makes some good points and offers some hope for the Desktop's future:

Windows Blue won't be the end of the Desktop UI

In recent years we have seen the over-consumerization of computers, in particular the shift from desktop PCs to tablets and other portable devices. Everything seems to be all about mobile today. But is mobile and touch the future of computers ?
...it's obvious that many consumers used a tool which they barely knew anything about. Having been a computer consultant and programmer for so long, time after time I find myself again and again suggesting to consumers I deal with that maybe they should buy a book about Windows and learn a little more about and what the software can do.

I realized the average consumer bought something he or she didn't fully utilize -- the PC exceeded need. Then along came MP3 players, smartphones and tablets. Consumers didn't need a keyboard, they simply touched the device. They didn't have to learn all the complexities of a full blown PC. Finally, people started buying what they wanted all along. Something designed to do a specific task, and that is it.

I do think this -- that PCs are too complex for many users who simply want to surf the Web and check their e-mail. That' i what tablets are for and one reason they've become so popular.

What I object to is being compelled to deal with an interface that I find both esthetically abhorrent and functionally inferior because Microsoft wants to appeal to such simplistic uses. Give me the choice, upon the first boot of a new device, to decide which UI to live in -- and if I choose the Desktop, then banish the Modern UI from my PC completely: I do not want to be assaulted by this abomination every time I want to launch a new program.

So, for consumers, maybe Windows could do away with the Desktop. But as far as businesses are concerned, to do away with the Desktop could mean the loss of millions, if not billions of dollars. But wouldn't Microsoft recognize this? I can't speak for the company, but I venture a guess of yes. So how does one create a totally new operating system that solves the needs of the consumer, while satisfying the needs of businesses? The answer, merge a new operating system into the existing one and have the best of both worlds. That is what Windows 8 does.

Never underestimate the capacity of a company that's strongly placed in a market, to be contemptuous of its customers and ignore their firmly and clearly stated preferences. I remember Blockbusters used to tout this "3-day rental" policy, where it turned out that if you rented a video at, say, 10PM Wednesday night, it was due back by noon on Friday -- on the brilliant theory that 10PM to midnight on Wednesday was "one" day, then Thursday was another day, and midnight to noon on Friday was a "third" day. You could have the video for barely a day and a half and that would be considered "3 days" when, practically speaking, there was only one day when you could watch it (the middle day).

What keeps organizations in line is the marketplace, the possibility of failure -- which needs to be allowed to occur. Blockbusters' idiotic, bullying policy helped to alienate its customers and they started looking for alternatives. Eventually management rescinded that policy, but by then the dam was collapsing and it was too late to stop it from emptying out. They might even still be in business today had they not been such nearsighted, arrogant morons -- at worst it would have bought them time to establish a solid foothold in the fast-growing streaming market before Netflix claimed it. Today they have a presence there but nobody knows or cares about it.

That aside, the writer of the linked piece evidently has an appreciation of business and, I believe, can come to understand that ultimately the Desktop and Modern UI's must be split from each other such that the twain shall never meet. The Desktop is clearly a second-class citizen in the Windows 8 world, and its users are never allowed to forget it. Metro gets in the way repeatedly to shock the senses and slow things down, both functionally and psychologically. Business users must ultimately get "our own" OS. Whether down the road that OS will be Windows, is up to Microsoft to decide. I'm not holding my breath.

--JorgeA

EDIT: tweaks

Edited by JorgeA
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Ah, I'm sorry for being so off-topic lately but someone mentioned Blockbuster and idiocy and I just have to comment.

Years ago, Blockbuster charged $4.02 for rentals where I lived. Of course they'd most often be paid in whole dollars because in everyone's heads the cost was an even $4. Naturally, Blockbuster wanted exact change. They posted a series of signage, becoming progressively louder and aggressive, which just became comical. Why didn't they just eat the 2 cents? It's not even 1%. Or charge $4.25? I doubt anyone would have cared that much.

And that "3-day" policy was BS. For a lot of people, the act of fetching the movie precluded actually watching it so the next day was the only realistic time to watch. The $1 rewind charge was crap, too, because they'd charge you but wouldn't rewind the tapes. Joke was on them since I bought a high-speed dedicated rewinder, the same they used in the store (or were supposed to). The thing about them, though, is they didn't respect the stopping point recognized by VCRs so it would slam pretty hard at the absolute end of the tape. Sometimes, the tape would just break. A screwdriver and some Scotch tape would fix it, of course, but I rarely felt so generous. I did tell them that the tape broke so that I wasn't screwing the next innocent renter. Once they threatened to charge me $80 for a replacement tape and I diffused the situation by asking them if they really thought they were getting $80 out of me.

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