JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

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Looks like boot to desktop and start menu are coming back.

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/maybe-they-should-just-call-it-windows-78

That is fantastic news!! :thumbup:thumbup

Here's the key passage:

Mary Jo Foley has reported on Microsoft’s plans to bring back the Start button and allow customers to boot directly to the desktop in Windows 8.1 And I’ve separately confirmed that this is really happening, with the Start button, in particular, driven by upper management, which overruled objections from the Windows team.
(emphasis added)

And Paul Thurrott seems to have done yet another 180 on the Windows 8 interface:

One might theorize that this wrong-headed decisiveness is what led to Steve Sinofsky’s departure from Microsoft, and that the current edict to fix things from on high is something that could never have happened with him still in charge. But that doesn’t matter. What matters is that Microsoft, is belatedly, is finally listening to feedback from its customers and changing the product as a result. That is, by far, the most alarming thing that didn’t happen—Windows division protestations to the contrary notwithstanding—during the Sinofsky regime.

Put simply, Microsoft should have designed Windows 8 this way from the beginning, and didn’t because the Windows division was given too much free reign after its Windows 7 successes. And it’s doing it now because the leadership that triggered six years of ignoring customer wishes is no longer there. As a result, Windows 8.1 will more closely resemble Windows 7 than the original Windows 8 version.

This may also allay concerns about Microsoft pushing the Windows Store in users' faces: if people will now be able to use the Start Button (but will it call up the Start Menu?) and boot directly to the Desktop, it's hard to see how the Metro side and its app store can remain as obnoxious as they've been.

But all in all, it's good to hear that someone in charge at Microsoft might actually be listening to flesh-and-blood customers, as opposed to hiding behind a wall of "scientific data."

--JorgeA

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And I’ve separately confirmed that this is really happening, with the Start button, in particular, driven by upper management, which overruled objections from the Windows team.

So, all the Sinofsky bashing apparently had merit? Was W8 not so much a coordinated corporate "plan" but more of a hipster gone amok?

Edited by Formfiller
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Oh, MS is screwing up yet again.

View 18:40. Apparently only the start button comes back, not the start menu! Also at around 21:00 Thurrott mentions that only the "business versions" will get this.

I've written about this.......:

Edited by Formfiller
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Thanks, Formfiller. Here's a remarkable exchange between Leo, Mary Jo, and Paul. Starts around 24:10. Leo and Mary Jo are not Metro fans, but Leo's view is especially caustic:

MJF: I don't know -- I only see this as good news. i've gotten so much e-mail about this this week from people begging me -- "oh, can you do anything to make this happen, this would be so awesome." Listen, I want to read one note that I got from from a guy, because he admits he's not a power user, but he's a very experienced Windows user. He says:

"I am not a computer professional, I'm a highly experienced user. In my youth, I learned to fly three different jets: an F-4, an F-111, and an EF-111. I know my way around technology. But Microsoft made this too hard."

PT: Yikes -- I can fly a plane, I cannot use Windows 8.

MJF: -- but I can't get used to the Charms, and --

PT: That's incredible.

MJF: And, you know, that's the kind of mail I've been getting. I have 600 comments on this article, and some of them are from design purists who say Microsoft should not capitulate, they should just make people do this, and this is the right thing -- they did the right thing. And then the rest of them are like, "please bring this back, please please, we really need this!" So it'll be interesting to see if this comes to pass.

LL: Heh, "design purists" or "design fascists"?...

PT: Yeah, there is a subtle distinction between "purist" and "fascist" <laughter>.

LL: I'm surprised that there would be that kind of reaction from people like, "this is a terrible idea." It just surprises me.

PT: The dumbest thing about this, though, is -- all they had to do was do this in the first place. And like I said, it didn't have to be obvious, it didn't even need to be a UI switch -- people like Mary Jo and I, we could have written our little tips about how you can bring back the old UI, and everyone would have been happy. It's amazing that they didn't do this.

Then they go on to an interesting discussion about Microsoft's "telemetry," also worth listening to.

But you're right -- this is only part of the cake. It's like someone grabbing your wallet, your phone, and your keys, and then offering to give back your phone and keys when you object.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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On unrelated news, the rage is mounting :ph34r: about the "hypothetical" EULA of the "hypothetical" google glasses:

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/04/google-glass-resales/

http://hothardware.com/News/By-Prescription-Only--Google-Will-Brick-Glasses-If-You-Loan-Them-Out/

jaclaz

Whoa, the discussion in the comments to the first article ranged far and wide, from heath care to fluoride in the public water. :blink:

But actually, based on the article Google's terms for this prototype sound more or less reasonable. They're having people try the glasses out in the field, and the selected testers shouldn't be handing them off to third parties, let alone to possible competitors.

OTOH, if these restrictive terms make it to the final commercial version, that's a different story. Not to mention the possibilities for monitoring/tracking individual people that the device represents.

--JorgeA

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I am having a blast reading the comments there:

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/maybe-they-should-just-call-it-windows-78

Lots of whining by metrotards. "No, these desktop users should be dragged kicking and screaming into metro! It's the future"

These people are f***ed up in the head. And I mean it. Totally demented. Why is metro the future if the majority of Windows customers hate it? Is there some natural law here? The whole DOS-Windows analogy doesn't work here. Windows was until W95 basically just a GUI on-top of DOS, and no one was forced to use it. People began to chose it freely, and top notch applications started to appear for it. By the time Windows became really a mandatory environment (95), great applications were already available for it and there was a sizable user base. And even on Windows 95 (and 98) you were able to boot straight into DOS if you wanted it.

With metro we have a environment that is panned and hated, with applications way below the level of the previous paradigm in functionality and quantity (the interface itself is severely crippled compared to the "outdated crap") yet users need to be dragged into it.. why the heck? What's the reasoning besides "MS needs 30% of the store money"?

Edited by Formfiller
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Windows was until W95 basically just a GUI on-top of DOS,

Actually also DURING and AFTER it, until Me. :whistle::ph34r:

The NT family was/is another thing.....

jaclaz

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I am having a blast reading the comments there:

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/maybe-they-should-just-call-it-windows-78

Lots of whining by metrotards. "No, these desktop users should be dragged kicking and screaming into metro! It's the future"

These people are f***ed up in the head. And I mean it. Totally demented.

Check out the NeoWin thread that covers this story ...

Did Microsoft execs overrule Windows team to put Start button back in Windows 8.1? ( NeoWin 2013-04-20 )

Every single thing we have said about them, that they are exceeding all expectations of Apple or Google or Linux fanboism, is on display. MetroTards on Parade. :yes:

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I think it's important to get Thurrott on the record here. From his "Short Takes" on Windows IT Pro ...

Short Takes: April 19, 2013 ( Thurrott 2013-04-19 )

Yes, Virginia, Microsoft Is Bringing the Start Button Back to Windows 8

And it’s going to let you boot to the desktop, bypassing the loathed new Start screen, too. I’ve confirmed these rumors with my own sources, as has my Windows Weekly co-host Mary Jo Foley, so I think we can move this one into the “fact” category, though of course details about how these changes will be implemented remain foggy. I do find it interesting that Microsoft CFO Peter Klein, while not explicitly acknowledging the changes, did oddly admit that the company update to Windows 8—called Windows 8.1 and code-named “Blue”—will include changes guided by “customer feedback.” I’m of two minds regarding this news. On the one hand, I’m glad Microsoft is finally listening to customers, many of whom have been very clear that Windows 8 as currently implemented isn't hugely interesting to them because of its too-radical design change. But on the other hand, what the heck, Microsoft? What took so damned long? The past six years—the Sinofsky regime, basically—are most obviously marked (to me, at least) by the Windows division’s abject disinterest in customer feedback. No, not disinterest. Disdain. And I really do hope that’s changing. This is a black mark that the company, and Windows, will find it hard to recover from.

As I've said before, Paul is clinically bipolar. He has actually voiced every possible permutation of all possible opinions along the way. However, what he wishes for is truly irrelevant. What is he predicting here? I can't tell. He is vague on what the return of the "Start Button" actually means. Is it a GUI button shortcut to the Metro Start Screen or not? Clearly he knows squat.

Maybe They Should Just Call It Windows 7.8 ( Thurrott 2013-04-19 )

For example, when Windows 95 shipped with the then-new Explorer user interface, customers who pined for the previous Program Manager interface could reconfigure it for that by editing an INI file. And when Microsoft radically changed the Start menu in Windows XP, it allowed customers to return to what it called the “classic Start menu” so that the system more closely resembled its predecessor, Windows 2000.

But Windows 8 offers none of these customer-centric niceties. A pop-up Start tip replaces the Start button, a full-screen Start screen replaces the Start menu, and the PC now boots into the mobile “Metro” environment instead of the desktop, even on traditional computers. And in each case, there is no way to configure the system to go back to the previous interface. This is a first for Microsoft and Windows, and as I reported last summer, the firm even went to the drastic step of removing legacy Start menu code from the internals of Windows to ensure that third party developers wouldn’t be able to do so either. (Developers have instead been forced to recreate these interfaces manually instead, a process that is more time- and resource-intensive.)

Was that a good decision? No, absolutely not.

Now in this follow-up, Paul "The Desktop Must Die!" Thurrott seems a little more sure in that they are actually listening, and get this, he agrees! Yeah sure. Now he has certainly stated the facts correctly, at last. But where was he for the past two years! Breaking the backwards compatible paradigm has been our beef for ages now. We have pointed out ProgMan in Win95 and Classic in WinXP. You are two years late to the party Paul. However, I still do not believe this story that the Start Menu is coming back. Nor do I even understand whether Paul is predicting this or is in fact being clever by being vague. In other words, they might just bring back the Start Button and still have it point to the Playskool Metro interface.

EDIT: added article(s)

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot
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Well, Paul already said in the video I linked that they will bring only the button back, without the start menu. At least for now.

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More news and views on Windows 8 sales and its effects:

Analyst: Microsoft’s Windows 8 Strategy Was A Disaster

Redmond yesterday announced its earnings for the first quarter of the year in a conference call. But interestingly, the software giant again stopped shy of providing any concrete Windows 8 sales numbers.

While Windows 8 is slowly increasing its market share, with more and more users upgrading to the new operating system, a fair number of analysts still consider the OS a controversial product — controversial in the sense that it split the user base in two because of the sweeping changes introduced in the UI.

The fact that Microsoft did not throw any numbers also gives them a reason to blast away.

Shaw Wu is one such analyst over at Sterne Agee, who believes that Microsoft played its cards all wrong as far as Windows 8 is concerned. The user interface changes would have been much more acceptable had there been a choice.

The Microsoft number we all want to know: Windows 8 sales to date

On April 18, Microsoft didn't share the one number many company watchers had been awaiting: An updated count of number of Windows 8 licenses sold.
I'm curious when and if Microsoft provides a new update on number of Window 8 licenses sold. Maybe that will happen at Computex or TechEd North America -- both happening the first week of June this year? In any case, today's silence on this front is ... interesting.

It's safe to say that if sales of Windows 8 were anything more than mediocre (not to say disastrous), Microsoft would be trumpeting the news for the world to hear.

What a Windows 8 U-turn will mean for the PC

Many PC OEMs are dissatisfied with what Microsoft has done with Windows 8 and the way the company has handled the negative response to the operating system. Privately, one OEM source told me that Microsoft is "destroying" the PC industry, while another claimed that Windows 8 has "handed over millions of customers to Apple."
(emphasis added)

The commenters there are particularly sensible and well worth reading. The top three at the time I visited the site:

I doubt that it will be a U-turn

More like a series of 45 degree turns before and they will be back to their old Metro tricks when they realise any pickup in sales.

At least . . .

At least it's a Start. :-)

Just not having to help my family and friends install Classic Shell on every computer would be an improvement. But if access to the Start Menu not the default, I will end up still having to help them find the setting in Windows. What they need to do is offer each user a choice as the account is being set up for the first time.

As they say…

'Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery'

So let’s see how far is Microsoft going with “the program” and if they will ever recover from them Metro Madness that has engulfed them.

--JorgeA

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More news and views on Windows 8 sales and its effects:

Analyst: Microsofts Windows 8 Strategy Was A Disaster

Redmond yesterday announced its earnings for the first quarter of the year in a conference call. But interestingly, the software giant again stopped shy of providing any concrete Windows 8 sales numbers.

While Windows 8 is slowly increasing its market share, with more and more users upgrading to the new operating system, a fair number of analysts still consider the OS a controversial product controversial in the sense that it split the user base in two because of the sweeping changes introduced in the UI.

The fact that Microsoft did not throw any numbers also gives them a reason to blast away.

Shaw Wu is one such analyst over at Sterne Agee, who believes that Microsoft played its cards all wrong as far as Windows 8 is concerned. The user interface changes would have been much more acceptable had there been a choice.

The Microsoft number we all want to know: Windows 8 sales to date

On April 18, Microsoft didn't share the one number many company watchers had been awaiting: An updated count of number of Windows 8 licenses sold.
I'm curious when and if Microsoft provides a new update on number of Window 8 licenses sold. Maybe that will happen at Computex or TechEd North America -- both happening the first week of June this year? In any case, today's silence on this front is ... interesting.

It's safe to say that if sales of Windows 8 were anything more than mediocre (not to say disastrous), Microsoft would be trumpeting the news for the whole world to hear.

What a Windows 8 U-turn will mean for the PC

Many PC OEMs are dissatisfied with what Microsoft has done with Windows 8 and the way the company has handled the negative response to the operating system. Privately, one OEM source told me that Microsoft is "destroying" the PC industry, while another claimed that Windows 8 has "handed over millions of customers to Apple."
(emphasis added)

The commenters there are particularly sensible and well worth reading. The top three at the time I visited the site:

I doubt that it will be a U-turn

More like a series of 45 degree turns before and they will be back to their old Metro tricks when they realise any pickup in sales.

At least . . .

At least it's a Start. :-)

Just not having to help my family and friends install Classic Shell on every computer would be an improvement. But if access to the Start Menu not the default, I will end up still having to help them find the setting in Windows. What they need to do is offer each user a choice as the account is being set up for the first time.

As they say…

'Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery'

So lets see how far is Microsoft going with the program and if they will ever recover from them Metro Madness that has engulfed them.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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