JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

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Fine example of NeoWin spin. As Windows XP leaves "support" ( yeah, as if Microsoft "supports" anything ) thanks to all the FUD about not being safe and protected under Microsoft's warm embrace naturally they are looking to do something. Well it seems to me that the headline should say International Space Station dumps Microsoft for Linux. Right? Apparently they are choosing Linux over Microsoft's dead dog so the headline could also read: International Space Station chooses Linux over Windows 8. :yes:

Well, with all due respect :) , besides the fact that Windows XP didn't make sense (as OS on laptops - or whatever - on the International Space Station) even when it was supported by MS, the only meaningful updates to XP are or could be "security patches" and particularly those preventing "remote code execution" and similar.

Now I would think that the good NASA guys (or whomever is the International Space Station ISP ;)) have some "sound and solid" firewall/filtering and that astronauts don't do much browsing/searching for p0rn, warez and similar possibly "insecure" sites.... :unsure:

As well I don' think the good NASA guys ever used Excel to calculate vectors and routes....

http://ta.twi.tudelft.nl/users/vuik/wi211/disasters.html

...and certainly never multiplied 850 by 77.1:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/26/excel_2007_bug/

BTW, in that occasion (strangely :whistle:) the good MS guys misrepresented the bug:

jaclaz

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Chipping in again...

re - the "Cloud" (Adobe)

As was stated, Internet sux in US/AU/Canada per speed. You could have a SuperComputer but the transfer speed would not change one whit. Good luck with that.

re - "Maintenance Costs" for "obsolete OS"

Disagree, because I was in Maintenance on Mainframe (so-called "Legacy" Applications) support. It usually was VERY expensive to produce the Documentation (Flowcharts, Pseudo-code, User Manuals, DB Normalization, etc) and the actual Application (including App Interfaces) not to mention the TIME to produce it (sometime several years) for a TEAM when, after Implementation, a "bug" found usually took about 2 hrs to "fix" and in many cases no more than an hour to implement said fix by a SINGLE PERSON. Fact! So SOMEONE is severely misguided in their analysis of Reality.

These "business decisions" (IMHO) are not rational nor are the "opinions" of the "Root for the new".

OT (but an analogy) -

Anyone consider the difference between working on, say, a (Chevrolet) 1967 Camaro and a 2013 Camaro? Try it sometime - the time and expense of the "repair" is VASTLY different. ;) In addition, try grinding the metal of both for an autobody repair - the difference is ASTOUNDING (one's metal warps - guess which one). :w00t:

edit -

In response to Jaclaz' comments above...

Ummm. I personally "reworked" several Applications to conform to the latest Compilers AND streamlined (practically rewrote) one within six months. (Air Force Materiel Command, for the HQ of ALL of the USAF). In addition, it was ALSO in alignment with NEW hardware. I call "Baloney", because it CAN be done! Trading a SINGLE experienced Programmer for two INEXPERIENCED ones for the sake of "cost" is (in the long run) a bad trade!

Edited by submix8c
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PCs aren't dead, they're microwaves

I'm not sure if we linked to this piece already, but I wanted to comment on something in it.

An overwhelming amount of words have been spilled about Windows 8, and a lot of those words have been negative. I don't have much to add, but I will say this: I think Windows 8's poor showing is a result of slowing overall PC sales, not the other way around. (Apple had a down quarter too, let's not forget.) If you need a new PC, then you need a new PC. That's a bottom-line reality of appliance purchasing.

That said, all the criticism focused on the modern UI could be pushing legions of would-be buyers into the lets wait one more year camp, which, as weve already discussed, could devastate yearly PC sales. Few people yearn to update their appliances as it is

Aside from the empirical aspect suggesting that Windows 8 has actually deepened the PC sales slump, there's the following conceptual angle:

The idea is that PCs are becoming like "appliances." Now, what's the distinguishing characteristic of an appliance? That it has a simple interface so that (the thinking goes) as many people as possible can use it.

With its Modern UI featuring big single-color tiles and low information density per screenful, Windows 8 advances the process of converting PCs into appliances. Thus, if being an appliance is a problem in terms of creating excitement and stimulating PC sales, then the problem is exacerbated, not mitigated, by Windows 8.

IMO the PC's complexity is an asset and not a liability. It is a source of wonderment. I suggest that the mystique of the computer -- with its arcane jargon, its maze of directories and subdirectories, its seemingly magical workings -- is precisely one of the biggest reasons for its success. The PC captured the public's imagination. Remove from view that mystique, that intriguing complexity, and then truly it becomes a ho-hum device worthy of no more thought than the microwave oven sitting on your kitchen counter.

PC users deserve more credit than they get from industry executives and commentators. We are not repelled by complexity, we are attracted to it. Sure, there will always be people who feel deterred by the existence of any learning curve at all, but I contend that if PCs had been from the start as simple and closed as some want to make them, then today they would remain a limited, niche product because nobody would have had any interest in exploring them. How many people make it their avocation (let alone their vocation) to plumb the depths of toasters or DVRs? It's the tinkering, the exploration, that leads to discovery and to the cross-pollination of ideas which fuels development. Remove that source of endless fascination, and over time the evolution of computing will slow down to a crawl and ultimately come to a halt.

The optimal model for maximizing computer sales in the long run might be a PC that the user may choose, at will, to approach as either a simple device or as the intricate apparatus that it really is. Those with simple needs can live in a tablet environment, while those who prefer to dig deeper can live in a desktop and file system without ever touching the tablet interface or being touched by it.

I pray to the MS gods that they hear my plea.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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edit -

In response to Jaclaz' comments above...

Ummm. I personally "reworked" several Applications to conform to the latest Compilers AND streamlined (practically rewrote) one within six months. (Air Force Materiel Command, for the HQ of ALL of the USAF). In addition, it was ALSO in alignment with NEW hardware. I call "Baloney", because it CAN be done! Trading a SINGLE experienced Programmer for two INEXPERIENCED ones for the sake of "cost" is (in the long run) a bad trade!

Well, I don' t see any possible way in which that can be a response connected to my previous post.

Three clear statements:

  1. there is no need to update or "mantain" XP (actually there is no real *need* to update XP since SP2 if not for security reasons, and for security related to connection to the internet or to an insecure LAN) (see note below)
  2. NASA or the agency managing the International Space Station (hopefully) provides (on Earth) a well secured system (IF they provide Internet access to the astronauts :unsure:)
  3. NASA or the agency managing the International Space Station (hopefully) does not use Excel to calculate trajectories

How good you are at programming :thumbup , how smart :) or dumb :w00t: the USAF may be in using NT based systems (supported or unsupported) for the *whatever* they use them, the whatever changes in compilers, have NOTHING to do with my post.

Note:

Hey people, remember that when we talk of XP, we talk of a system that (with it's defects and "quirks") has been working for many years in the very large majority of PC's on Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP

Service Pack 1 was a "needed" bugfix on September 2002

Service Pack 2 was mainly an "added features" on August 2004 (and contains lots of "security" related fixes)

Service Pack 3 was almost totally "security related" in April 2008

At least since Service Pack 1 Windows XP has worked.

I am running a SP2 XP, with NO issues whatsoever.

For all it matters, once excluded the "security related" fixes, and updates directly or indirectly connected to the changes in the Internet, (i.e. as an example a PC NOT connected in a LAN and/or the 'net) and/or the *need* to use the latest software, any SP level XP normally does what is supposed to do, it's not like for 2 years between 2002 and 2004 and for 4 more years between 2004 and 2008 everything stopped working and humans reverted to living in caves due to the failure of computing technology.

Every office in the world continued using their PC's to do what they had done before, actually if there were issues, there were initially with SP3....

Strangely enough humanity survived even without latest Service Pack, and without *essential* features like UAC and DEP (and Silverlight ;)) .

(and BTW before that we managed to live without WFP and plug 'n play)

jaclaz

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With its Modern UI featuring big single-color tiles and low information density per screenful, Windows 8 advances the process of converting PCs into appliances. Thus, if being an appliance is a problem in terms of creating excitement and stimulating PC sales, then the problem is exacerbated, not mitigated, by Windows 8.

Agreed, cash register appliances as in point of sale, plugged right into every individual wallet. What is astounding is that this is as old as dirt. Even the touchscreen aspect of POS is old news. When you look at it this way there is nothing new here except for one thing - that Microsoft has hatched a scheme to monetize their x86 "user base", the one they believe are leaving them anyway ( incorrectly though, because people buying tablets and small form factors to replace or supplement the workstation they have is not the end of the x86 home PC ) and turn them into cash cows and golden geese in their walled garden. When we first talked about this scenario two thousand posts and almost a year ago it may have sounded conspiratorial, but I ask if anyone has anymore doubts now? The x86 PC, largely thanks to the clones due to the reverse engineered BIOS and freewheeling independent developers made this universe what it is ( and ironically made Microsoft rich in the process ). Microsoft believes that party is over and is going all in to kidnap as many of the 1.something billion users they call their own ( which is insulting because we are not theirs, they just think so, imagine the arrogance to consider those computers part of their empire when only a small handful were actually manufactured by Microsoft, unlike Apple. This is really the story in a nutshell. There should not be a single x86 developer that does not get this, the few that are throwing in with Microsoft just think they can make a few bucks. all the rest are considered scabs.

IMO the PC's complexity is an asset and not a liability. It is a source of wonderment. I suggest that the mystique of the computer -- with its arcane jargon, its maze of directories and subdirectories, its seemingly magical workings -- is precisely one of the biggest reasons for its success. The PC captured the public's imagination. Remove from view that mystique, that intriguing complexity, and then truly it becomes a ho-hum device worthy of no more thought than the microwave oven sitting on your kitchen counter.

PC users deserve more credit than they get from industry executives and commentators. We are not repelled by complexity, we are attracted to it.

You have accurately summed up the feeling in 1981 when IBM announced their platform and the race to collect 5.25" floppy disks full of an infinite variety of software began. They really could have accurately called it the Personal Workstation because that is what it really was, and has remained up until Microsoft sentenced it to death. All one has to do is put all the clues together, Microsoft Tiles, cloud, subscriptions, no install media, ... ad nauseum. All the while they are sugar coating each gulp of their medicine with marketdroid propaganda and Wall Street weasel words. People better start connecting the dots before they wake up and find a new world re-imagined by NuMicrosoft.

Microsoft to web developers: "For everything you've done, thank you" ( NeoWin 2013-05-10 )

The only people they really should be thanking are those scabs that they despise so much, the independent x86 often-anonymous software authors who are responsible for the interest in their buggy and slow-crawling operating system. Thanking the web-slingers? :no:

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Here are those crazy Windows 8 ads that got pulled by Microsoft, in full:

http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/WTF-

And some people dutifully cheer even these! I like how at the NeoWin thread yesterday they are arguing whether the language was Japanese, Chinese or Korean too. They finally settled upon a slightly insulting "They're for Asians" phrasing :lol: I don't know any of those languages myself, but you would think that there might be an overlay specifying the target market or something.

Microsoft's Windows 8 Commercials for Asia Are Awesome ( Tom's Hardware 2013-05-10 )

I don't know what this author is smoking! An interesting little tidbit though ...

The Verge cites a Microsoft spokesperson who says the three commercials below were produced for Microsoft's Asian markets and posted to the company's general channel by mistake.

Some mistake. Imagine the Softie that uploaded them: "Oh Crap! I posted them to the wrong part of the planet!" :lol: Lots of amateur mistakes happening up there these days so it's par for the course.

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EDIT: Another double post! MSFN driver error again. Deleted.

Here's a random substitute picture I made that I don't think was used yet ...

FI3zCdB.jpg

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot
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I would dare to say that the images on the original john's phone are slightly more understandable for a child than the printout:

  • On - Off End call
  • Answer

http://johnsphones.org/

There are by now what, tens of "simplified phones" around, not really a "new idea".

Wait, but those have all the figures from 0 to 9 (very difficult for a child that can easily fix your dvd recorder, set your radio alarm clock, and reset your smartphone - all without reading instructions - in under two minutes :rolleyes: )

This is better:

http://cnipopman.en.made-in-china.com/product/YqzxgMLCHXVG/China-A88-Child-Mobile-Phone-Q6-Ibaby-Kids-Cell-Phone.html

though it has icons for headset on and off hook, that a child cannot understand and numbers from 1 to 4 :ph34r:

This is better:

http://cnipopman.en.made-in-china.com/product/lMLEzPuKYvhG/China-Gk301-Kids-Mobile-Phone-With-GPS-Tracker.html

And this is even better:

http://www.dhgate.com/promotion-ibaby-cute-baby-mobile-phone-kids/p-ff80808132a4f51a0132b9e392a437d1.html

1.0x0.jpg

our good Chinese friends - having a few thousands years of cultural background and some experience with ideograms, clearly much more cleverly thinking than the UK buffoons that "invented" the ownphone, hypothized that a kid would likely want to call (or actually be allowed to call):

  1. Mom
  2. Dad
  3. Home
  4. School
  5. SOS

and risked to pre-print those along with nice sketches of the words.

And once again, we have proof that the Simon like interface and colours are aimed to kids ;).

jaclaz

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:wacko: (must have lost track...) This

the only meaningful updates to XP are or could be "security patches"
got mixed in with the Maintenance thingy (from an earlier post about costs). The point is the good MS guys are reinventing a perfectly good wheel instead of giving it a real nice major update (under a new name, of course). Yank the 1967 Camaro engine, punch it out, rebuild, add headers and a double-pump Holley, major customize the doghouse and rear end - voila! "New Car" of higher quality and cheaper than New Car.

Again OT - that was Mainframe Compilers=Cobol, Fortran, PL/I, RPG, Assembler (etc.)

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@FormFiller ...

I read through the There is no end-of-life XP problem, wow, just wow.

So what does that crazy evil Softie mean by: "They did. It was XP SP4. Also, it wasn't $30, it was free."? I must have missed that one :lol:

And I should mention that he has inadvertently pointed out another crime Microsoft continually gets away with: "And motor vehicle companies continue to pump out new versions of cars and eventually stop supporting old vehicles.". Ummm, that is certainly not true, his analogy is FUBAR. Cars are recalled all the time long out of warranty for manufacturing flaws and defective parts. That's the analogy he ignores ...

Toyota Joins Honda, Nissan in Car Recall on Airbag Fault ( Bloomberg 2013-04-13 )

Takata Corp. (7312) faces its biggest recall crisis in almost two decades after defective airbag inflators led Toyota Motor Corp. (7203), Honda Motor Co. (7267) and Nissan Motor Co. to call back more than 3 million vehicles.

The Japanese safety-gear producer made the products from 2000 to 2002, Takata spokesman Hideyuki Matsumoto said, declining to comment on its customers, who identified the supplier. According to Toyota, malfunctioning inflators could cause the airbag to deploy abnormally during a crash.

Note the timeframe, preceding the Windows XP RTM.

Microsoft, thanks to it's lobbying, has gotten off incredibly easy over the years. Leaving innumerable bugs in Windows ignored, and with security flaws discovered weekly they go on about their merry way and cheerleaders like that thick-headed Softie keep twirling their batons. God help them if the FTC and other alphabet agencies ever wake up and apply the same standards on them that they use for almost everyone else. :yes:

EDIT: typo

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot
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Shouldn't speak too much of automobiles. Try getting a replacement head or quarter panel for any Ford product older than 1990. "Out of stock" - the Repair Person (me) supports it but the Company does not. Aftermarket MAYBE. ;) The statement as given is true...

(Guess I should have mentioned I'm a jackwagon of all trades.)

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PC Makers Hopeful on Windows 8 Changes ( Wall Street Journal 2013-05-09 )

According to Wang, it’s a transitional period for Microsoft – a company that was once considered to “live in heaven.” With the update, Wang said Microsoft is coming back down to earth after learning how people living on earth think.

Man, these two Acer honchos Wang and Wong ( no I'm serious, Chairman Wang and President Wong )

I just had to laugh! :lol: Sounds like the names of the bad guys in some martial arts B-movie...

From the blog post, a dose of reality:

When we were talking to Microsoft, our input to them is balance,” said Acer President Jim Wong. “The world in the next five years is not going 100 percent to touch. Although touch makes a lot of possibilities for PCs, you need to take care of the rest of the world that doesn’t need touch.”
[emphasis added]

This should the the lock screen on Tami R.'s and Steve B.'s Windows 8 PCs.

JorgeA

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The statement as given is true...

well, there are several meanings for "support " used in these Windows conversations. The Softie that Formfiller is sparring with, and Microsoft itself push the illusion that they are little worker bees toiling away each day keeping Windows going, and without them it would grind to a halt. Me, I think they support squat, spend all their time spreading FUD about threats and responding to theoretical exploits which keeps them busy and the customers placated.

The quoted Softie used the word "support" in the sentence: "And motor vehicle companies continue to pump out new versions of cars and eventually stop supporting old vehicles" and I think this is FUBAR because auto companies never "supported" the car in the first place. He goes on and on with this myth implying that Microsoft is different: "Microsoft already has a vastly longer service agreement for Windows than any other product on the market." and also: "Microsoft is alone in the market for supporting Windows XP for 10 years.". Windows XP is NOT running on a bunch of my computers because of anything Microsoft has done. It is running despite everything they have done.

But the analogy clearly falls apart because the car makers certainly are responsible for their mistakes and have authorized reps and service centers all over the place. Microsoft has cleverly offloaded all her responsibility to everyone except themselves: the vast unpaid non-Microsoft user base fixing each others computers and the huge assortment of forums like this. Phone calls go to the OEM system manufacturers ( some racket that monopoly is, get the OEMs to install Windows at the factory and then also field the irate phone calls ). For those remainders that try to go to Microsoft they get someone in India. Quite a scam really.

Anyway, that's why I think his auto analogy is ridiculous, because they're mostly opposite. I do like auto analogies in general because almost everybody can relate to them and many are perfectly adequate. In this case I wish it were true because if Microsoft cared about customers no matter how small ( and they don't ) they wouldn't require government urging or peer pressure or criticism or bad press to shake a leg and fix bugs regardless of age of the operating system or size of user base. They would do it because it is the right thing to do. They would do it because ( cue Godfather II ) "this is the business they've chosen" i.e., Operating Systems, a fundamental piece of the technology. Unfortunately they want to just reap the rewards of a monopoly and do as little as possible. And since we know full well that they are using planned obsolescence, meaning they are NOT fixing previous versions in order to make you upgrade it is borderline evil. Imagine Toyota saying "Sorry, that airbag might malfunction, time to get a new car". Now that auto analogy is apples to apples IMHO.

I'm not kidding when I suggest that the x86 operating systems should now be taken out of their hands and all related patents rescinded. All the backroom deals that led to this situation of installing their stuff on 3rd party computers should be exposed and any collusion should be prosecuted, particularly cases where hardware drivers became obsolete from version to version. Governments have a cow when sports teams collude to limit salaries or any number of things, and they go nuts if players take steroids. Yet here we have software that makes over a billion computers work or lie still, and they rigged it so there is no choice but to upgrade. It is very ugly. Drastic action would send a clear message that huge outfits like Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook ( ... ) that corner a market better behave and do the right thing or there will be consequences.

EDIT: typo

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot
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