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JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

6,162 posts in this topic

By the way, on analysis using virtual metallurgy I believe I've found the MSFN "gears" to be made of aluminum.

 

Gears3D.jpg

 

I'm not sure I dare analyze the $...

 

-Noel

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By the way, on analysis using virtual metallurgy I believe I've found the MSFN "gears" to be made of aluminum.

 

Gears3D.jpg

 

 

Veeery nice. :)

 

 

I'm not sure I dare analyze the $...

 

-Noel

 

:lol:

 

--JorgeA

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HP still pushing Windows 7 laptops well into Windows 8's second year

 

... We suspect that the reason HP is pushing these machines is that they have a higher satisfaction rate, and knowing that consumers like Windows 7, it becomes an easier sell for HP.

 

No matter the reasoning, it is a blow to Windows 8 and emphasizes the reason why Windows Threshold can't come soon enough for the company, as they battle to undo the woes of its current OS.

 

Even Neowin is climbing off the Win8 bandwagon.

 

... How do we know that Windows 8 is not doing well? For one thing, Microsoft has stopped releasing Windows 8 sales figures, and if we look at usage share, Windows 7 dramatically trumps that of Windows 8.

 

--JorgeA

 

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Microsoft expected to announce Windows 9 on September 30

 

Windows Threshold: Rapid release is getting really interesting

 

On current internal builds of Windows Threshold, you can upgrade builds with a single click of a button. How it works is that when you open Windows Update, there is a new feature in this area that allows you to upgrade your build of Windows, meaning you could go from build 9825 to 9829 with a single click.

 

If this carries over to the official release, it will be a heck of a lot simpler than the way they handled the transition from 8 to 8.1 which required a visit to the Windows Store to download a whole ISO, and closer to the way Service Packs used to be delivered (with a simple click via Windows Update). Another UX improvement.

 

--JorgeA

 

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On current internal builds of Windows Threshold, you can upgrade builds with a single click of a button. How it works is that when you open Windows Update, there is a new feature in this area that allows you to upgrade your build of Windows, meaning you could go from build 9825 to 9829 with a single click.

 

 

 

Given the traditional reliability of pre-release builds and of Windows Updates, combining the two seems like an interesting shortcut to get faster, simpler BSOD's ;).

You may want to notice however :) that they talk of a "single click" and NOT of a "single tap". :whistle:

 

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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If this carries over to the official release, it will be a heck of a lot simpler than the way they handled the transition from 8 to 8.1 which required a visit to the Windows Store to download a whole ISO, and closer to the way Service Packs used to be delivered (with a simple click via Windows Update). Another UX improvement.

 

--JorgeA

 

All the Windows Update tech is already in place.  Service packs have always gone in as a big update.  Beyond that, every recent set of updates has been in the hundreds of megabytes, which says that the infrastructure is worthy.

 

The question that comes to my mind is:  Why is it newsworthy?

 

Should it be breaking news every time they drop back to working technology instead of something new they botched?

 

Shakespeare's character said "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."  Perhaps the second thing out to be to consider Marketeers.  Does the job description involve the term "spin"?  Off with their heads!  :crazy:

 

-Noel

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Shakespeare's character said "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."  Perhaps the second thing out to be to consider Marketeers.  Does the job description involve the term "spin"?  Off with their heads!  :crazy:

 

-Noel

 

Don't forget hairdressers and phone sanitizers ;) (and a few more "useless" professions):

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_(race)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Places_in_The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Golgafrincham

 

jaclaz

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All the Windows Update tech is already in place.  Service packs have always gone in as a big update.  Beyond that, every recent set of updates has been in the hundreds of megabytes, which says that the infrastructure is worthy.

 

The question that comes to my mind is:  Why is it newsworthy?

 

Should it be breaking news every time they drop back to working technology instead of something new they botched?

 

It really shouldn't be news, but given the past three years things are such that it is noteworthy that the folks at Microsoft have adopted a (more) sane approach to the UX that they've been asking their Windows customers to adopt.

 

There are still some isolated Metro holdouts, however. Check out this guy, and then see how he gets skewered in the comments. Click-bait or no, bet he's sorry he brought the whole thing up.

 

--JorgeA

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... There are still some isolated Metro holdouts, however. Check out this guy, and then see how he gets skewered in the comments ...

 

^ Epic example:

 

 

"the Neanderthal set"

 

You're talking about the vast majority of ALL PC users, correct? The folks who write ALL of the software that makes the world go round? All the folks who build and maintain ALL the websites in the world? The folks who do all of the CAD/CAM design for everything produced on Earth from the giant Boeing 787 to the tiniest watch spring? The folks who do ALL of the accounting and business and medical database operations in the world? The folks who run ALL of the real-time manufacturing processes in the world? The folks who perform ALL government functions? ALL of the small businesses in the world whose businesses would evaporate without PCs?

 

Those Neanderthals? Right?

 

Just making sure ...

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Ow, come on :).
Mr. Randall C. Kennedy (occasional) connections to reality happen - to say the least - very seldom (his connections with "common sense" are much more rare):
 
.
Read these two articles of his:
http://betanews.com/2012/09/14/youre-living-in-post-pc-denial/
(that was published on 14/09/2012)
and this one:
http://betanews.com/2012/09/18/friendly-advice-to-a-fellow-post-pc-traveller/
(right after it, on 18/09/2012)
and compare them with this one:
http://betanews.com/2012/09/25/so-long-robot-im-ditching-android/
(that was published on 25/09/2012, i.e. not more than eleven days after the first one)

demotivational-posters-bipolar.jpg

 

jaclaz

 

P.S.: and it is not like he has a record for particular "reliability" or "integrity" :whistle::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_C._Kennedy

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/why-we-dont-trust-devil-mountain-software-and-neither-should-you/31024

Edited by jaclaz
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I have no problem with someone creating a brave new user interface / experience if it's as good as or better than the Windows desktop (or even CAN be after much tweaking).  When I see one I'll be the first to adopt it, use it, write software for it. 

 

Unfortunately, so far it's a fantasy.

 

Microsoft envisioned a brave new Metro/Modern world where programmers could just write applications trivially easily, then there'd be this massive publication of such applications (with Microsoft poised to take 30% of the action), and the next great age of computing would be born.

 

Trouble is, someone forgot that for serious applications to deliver value in this day and age of really complex problems and big data, there need to be complex applications.  They just can't use big fonts and be touch-friendly.  The problems are no longer that simple.  A Weather app has been done, and while fun and games are, well, fun, they don't make the world go 'round.

 

But Microsoft, on starting to realize their failure, decided to "actively de-emphasize" the desktop, instead of finding ways to improve it at the same time as introducing the new paradigm.  This could be considered "doubling down with a bluff".  If all they'd done is make the desktop just as powerful as with Windows 7, perhaps with a few additional features, they'd not have alienated the business community.  But nooooooo, they had to eliminate the Start Menu, they had to turn off Aero Glass, they had to eliminate 3rd party theme support.  They had to hide the ability to make and use a local account.  It didn't/doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they were actively turning away from serious computer usage.

 

I'm sure there are (were?) bright people inside Microsoft who knew this was the wrong move.  But apparently in Microsoft no one can hear you scream (as your boss shoots you in the foot over and over again).  Ballmer and Sinosfsky, in the process of making themselves rich, basically set the advance of high tech back 10 years.

 

-Noel

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Blast from the past:

http://idorosen.com/mirrors/robinsloan.com/epic/ols-master.html

Epic 2014. Remember that? Now we are living in 2014 and it's funny how totally irrelevant the points in the video are nowadays. That time capsule has not aged well (despite just being ten years old).

Total tech domination was supposed to happen through news and information! And now, in the real 2014, everyone is obsessed about touch toys, selfies and lolcats.

Epic 2015 is even more gaudy viewed today:

http://blogoscoped.com/videos/epic-2015.html

It's also a good reminder how everyone thought Google would be the unstoppable behemoth.

Edited by Formfiller
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That was interesting. It's somehow reassuring to see predictions and forecasts not panning out.

 

--JorgeA

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News of Windows 9 keeps trickling out, even if the details are sometimes contradictory:

 

Everything you need to know about Windows 9 ('Threshold')

 

Windows Threshold Preview to be named "Technical Preview for Enterprise"

 

Windows 9 (Threshold): Welcome to Modern UI 2.0

 

Windows 9 may remove the Metro interface for desktop PC users, feature one-click upgrade process

 

Windows 'Threshold' and cadence: How fast is too fast?

 

 

 

The biggest change will of course be the re-introduction of a Start menu for keyboard and mouse systems. We’ve seen leaked screenshots of this (the one above being an example), and it looks good. It takes the Windows 7 Start menu and adds tiles from the Windows 8.x Start screen, to produce a hybrid menu that offers the best of both worlds. The menu will only be available to desktop users (obviously), and they’ll be able to toggle the tiled part on or off, which will please anyone who really, really hates the look of the tiled UI.

[emphasis added]

 

There is no middle ground between devices that have the Modern UI and devices that have the desktop. You either have the desktop or you have the Modern UI, you cannot have both. As reported around a month ago, the Start Menu for desktop users in Windows Threshold can 'act' like a full screen Start Menu however, meaning if you want that functionality you can have it on the desktop. This will be helpful for devices like the Surface Pro 3.

[emphasis added]

 

 

The impending new OS raises some questions. For mobile devices lacking the Desktop,

Consumers shouldn't be able to tell that it's Windows underlying the UI. This means no registry, desktop icons, close buttons, win32 applications or windows. The Modern UI is front and center and the only thing users should have to deal with.

 

So... if they get infected or if the thing BSODs or if an app crashes -- how is the user (or, indeed, a technician) going to troubleshoot the thing if there is no registry and no applications with which to get into the innards of the system to see what's gone wrong?

 

And as Mary Jo Foley reports,

The next phase of change could get really interesting. Does Microsoft go the subscription route with its updates and patches, as my colleague Larry Dignan is assuming? Or does Microsoft make these patches and updates free in the hope of keeping users on its platforms and hope to offset the cost by attracting users to subscribe to its other software and services? I've heard from my sources that Microsoft might go so far as to make Windows Threshold free to Windows 7 and Windows 8.X users to try to get the majority of its Windows users on the most up-to-date release.

 

 

One one thing there does seem to be widespread agreement:

 

So far, then, Windows 9 is shaping up to be very interesting indeed — though it’s hard to ignore the fact that this is essentially everything that Windows 7 and disgruntled Windows 8 mouse-and-keyboard users have been asking for all along.

[emphasis added]

 

Well, not quite everything. Will users recover the ability to enable Aero Glass on powerful machines? Will Windows Media Center still be available in any fashion (either built-in or as an add-on package)?

 

Inquiring minds want to know...

 

--JorgeA

 

 

 

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Some common sense thoughts...

 

You can't have a 100% Metro/Modern UI without 100% of the needs of users covered.

 

You can't have 100% of the needs covered without years of development if you're not first to the party.

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize there is no quick solution.

 

The world is too complex to just throw everything out and start over.  No one will do without the stuff being thrown out until stuff that's better - or at least substantially as good - is there to replace it.  No one has ever been able to tell me why I need or would want a Microsoft tablet, when I already have an iPad that does the minimal number of things a tablet can do for me when away from my real computer.

 

Why does a company that has a lock on the majority of the world's computing choose to just abandon its strengths?  It's like the executives can't hold more than one thought at a time in their heads.

 

-Noel

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I think the limitation that both UIs can't be had is going to be a mistake. Currently, you can have a Windows 8.1 with both UIs if you use StartIsBack or another menu replacement. The reason why I think it is going to be a mistake is that I'm just starting to see people be interested in the games available from the Windows Store. People that want a dual experience as in Windows 8.1 are not going to like Windows 9 if the same experience can't be had.

Of course, the initial mistake was forcing the Modern UI onto desktop users.

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A "Modern App in a Window" capability - which I think is what they're talking about providing - gives you a desktop-oriented App experience, no?  It's not hard to think of just hitting Maximize or a good ol' key combo to go "full screen" and boom, it's full-screen.

 

-Noel

Edited by NoelC
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Speaking of "both UIs"...  Are you thinking someone might actually miss the Start Screen experience? 

 

Does a person exist who actually prefers the Start screen? 

 

Just joking, of course there are some.  But, just like with the past versions, people will learn to adapt to what's provided - or augment it with 3rd party software. 

 

I fully expect Classic Shell to support Windows 9 or whatever stupid name they come up with (maybe "Threshold" will stick).  I imagine I'll be using Classic Shell no matter what Microsoft comes up with.  I like that my "Start" experience has been more or less consistent since way back; it's better than what's been provided by Microsoft.

 

-Noel

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Tablets might be starting to look like a passing fad, for the sake of which Microsoft shattered Windows and angered countless customers:

 

Zero Tablet Growth Forecast For U.S., Western Europe

 

After two straight quarters of softer-than-expected demand for tablets, research firm IDC slashed its full-year growth outlook for the category on Friday. It now expects global tablet shipments to rise 6.5% in 2014, down from its prior outlook for 12.1% growth.

 

Worse yet, the firm sees no growth in tablet shipments in North America and Western Europe this year.

 

Meanwhile, reports are trickling in that PC sales are picking up again. Intel and Hewlett-Packard just turned in some good financials. I'm thinking that the worldwide market is approaching the point where everyone who values one of those tablet toys already has one.

 

On the bright side, MS is finally refocusing Windows on its core audience, as we here have been counseling all along.

 

--JorgeA

 

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A "Modern App in a Window" capability - which I think is what they're talking about providing - gives you a desktop-oriented App experience, no?  It's not hard to think of just hitting Maximize or a good ol' key combo to go "full screen" and boom, it's full-screen.

 

-Noel

 

I never understood the excitement over the "immersive" experience in Metro IE, considering that users could always have that kind of browsing experience in real Windows simply by hitting the F11 key.

 

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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I never understood the excitement over the "immersive" experience in Metro IE,

 

 

I believe many of the terms currently being used, like "immersive" (is good), "digitally authentic" (is good), and "skeuomorphism" (is bad) are just a result of the spin doctors at Microsoft trying to justify the turkey after the fact and sway public opinion.  Perhaps they're just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

 

-Noel

Edited by NoelC
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I never understood the excitement over the "immersive" experience in Metro IE,

 

 

I believe many of the terms currently being used, like "immersive" (is good), "digitally authentic" (is good), and "skeuomorphism" (is bad) are just a result of the spin doctors at Microsoft trying to justify the turkey after the fact and sway public opinion.  Perhaps they're just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

 

-Noel

 

 

That's a good question, which one came first -- the spin or the turkey. My impression is that "skeuomorphism" was getting badmouthed even before it was clear Win8 was failing. But the propaganda push may have come as a response to the early outrage from Neanderthals ;) like us. We'd have to search through this thread :) to get a better idea of the sequence of events.

 

--JorgeA

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