JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

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Simplicity makes things harder to do! But the truth is that for a long time we have had the CHOICE as individuals whether to use a simpler or a richer interface. We've had the choice to go full-screen in Internet Explorer since version 4, at least. But now the morons experts at Microsoft have decided that CHOICE IS BAD and we must all bow to the same god of (false) simplicity.

Unlike WinDiv which doesn't care about users or customers, nor how they use their computers. They're right and everybody else is wrong. Metro you will use, and you'll like it -- they've decided so. It doesn't matter if the interface is backwards and counterproductive. And of course they're too arrogant to give us any options. It's a lame and desperate attempt to use their desktop monopoly to sell a few tablets that's going to backfire.

that is Sinofsky and no one else. He likes it so now all 1 Billion Windows users have to like it :realmad:

This is what I don't like. See NOD32 for example. By default they show a simply UI with a small amount of options to not overcharge the average users. But if I want I can change the view to an advanced and now I get all control options I need. All users are happy. This is great UX and not the bul***** Sinofsky does :realmad:

News is coming out that Microsoft is giving in to developers' clamoring for a free desktop development platform in the wake of Windows 8.

@CoffeeFiend, @MagicAndre, @jaclaz among others: What do you think? Is this a hard-earned victory; too little too late; something better/worse?

It shows that DevDiv actually listens to users and paying customers. Nobody wanted the old depressing everything-looks-the-same monochrome theme so they gave in on that. All-caps-everything is ridiculous, so they're adding a setting to disable it at least. Yes, we have to be pretty loud before it actually happens, but we're getting positive results on most of the big issues. If enough people complain, they do something about it.

yes, with Dev10 (VS2010) a lot of users complained about the blurry font and they tweaked it so that it is now ok to use.

But Windows with Sinofsky is the opposite: "f*** you customers, we (MSFT) are gods and you stupid normal users have to praise us and use what we (MSFT) think is the best." :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad:

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Thanks for putting that video up. It illustrates exactly what I wanted, as a comment to what Freledingue said.

Well, we have also evidence that there are worse ways to commit suicide:

homework-class-test-dying-in-movies-watch-out-for-seppuku.jpg

it seems like using Comic Sans ( as BOB used to) is considered the most painful one and with the lowest chance of being lethal (fail at failing :w00t: )

back to square #53:

http://www.connare.com/whycomic.htm

jaclaz

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that is Sinofsky and no one else. He likes it so now all 1 Billion Windows users have to like it :realmad:

Well, it's not like I was blaming individual developers (who obviously have no say in it). Most likely other incompetent managers like Ballmer have a say in it.

if I want I can change the view to an advanced and now I get all control options I need. All users are happy. This is great UX and not the bul***** Sinofsky does :realmad:

But Windows with Sinofsky is the opposite: "f*** you customers, we (MSFT) are gods and you stupid normal users have to praise us and use what we (MSFT) think is the best." :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad:

Exactly. Give users options and you could turn this disaster into a success. Won't happen though. They'll continue on their journey to kill desktop computing, only to see massive growth in Android and iOS devices. They're just making themselves slowly irrelevant by making their core product worse, thus pushing users to their competitor's products.

yes, with Dev10 (VS2010) a lot of users complained about the blurry font and they tweaked it so that it is now ok to use.

I never experienced that specific problem. There are so many things to fix and improve though... VS2010 was a massive improvement over VS2008 for C# users. For C++ users though it's not quite that clear cut (no refactoring support, no intellisense in C++/CLI, things like "go to definition" have gotten very slow, etc).

They're fixing the main issues (read: extremely stupid decisions) in VS11, but I don't really care for any of the new stuff (there isn't much new either) as far as C# development goes. I'm still looking for a single worthwhile reason to upgrade to it. It seems like I'd gain exactly nothing from using it (less than MS Office 2010 brings over MS Office 2007?) Instead of messing with the GUI so much (mostly screwing things up), they could have added something like Resharper (or CodeRush), LINQPad or the REPL from Roslyn. Better support (built-in) for other source control and tests frameworks than TFS (which nobody uses or wants of) and tons of other things (like using SIMD instruction sets, or something for GPGPU programing). But instead, you get ALL CAPS MENUS and what not. C++ developers would kill for something like VisualAssistX built-in, along with leading support of C++11 features but they get none of it. It feels like they're wasting a massive amount of man-hours on pointless stuff while ignoring the real problems.

it seems like using Comic Sans ( as BOB used to) is considered the most painful one and with the lowest chance of being lethal (fail at failing :w00t: )

They haven't updated it to include Metro yet.

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"Most of poeple rarely use more than two documents at the same time"

I'd like to see the datas backing that up! Everybody I observed at their computer were using at least 4 apps at the same time. One person I know has always 20 windows on the taskbar. When I asked her, "how can you work like this, close all that you don't need!" She replied that it was her way to work and that they were all useful.

That's precisely why Vista and w7 group all instances of a same app under a single taskbar icon.

Because poeple open multiple windows all the time, and the taskbar is always full.

But that invention was already counter productive because you don't see which windows are open nor how many.

It takes more time to look for them because you can't seen their caption on the taskbar.

I hate taskbar groups for that reason. But Metro is just a gigantic taskbar group where everything is under a monstruous screen-sized icon.

Agreed!

The taskbar is the reason that Windows 3 never worked for me; that Windows 98 was a vast improvement; that Vista topped even that; and that Windows 7 is a step back from that pinnacle.

Vista IMHO is the pinnacle of taskbar functionality because it does everything that the Windows 98 taskbar icons do, plus offering a little thumbnail preview of what the contents of the window look like. Thus you have both textual and visual indicators of what the window is, to help you get back to the window you need.

Windows 7 is a step back from this precisely because of what you described. Grouping taskbar items means that I need an additional click to see what's open. So the first thing I do when setting up Windows 7 (or Windows 8 desktop) is to ungroup the taskbar items.

It hadn't occurred to me to think of Metro as a gigantic taskbar group, but you know, that makes sense! Maybe that's one reason I dislike it so much...

Resizing windows is also one of the most important feature for productivity that was kissed goodbye in Metro.

Want to do a copy-paste, compare two photos, use a calculator next to a text editor, drag and drop files...

How can we imagine a surface area where these won't be possible?

Again, right on the money.

I can't tell you how many times I've been trying to follow complex instructions on a Web page that involve opening Control Panel to reach some arcane administrative function, and it's been essential to be able to see the instructions at the same time as I'm opening the Start Menu, then selecting Control Panel, and navigating to the correct command. The Metro Start Screen makes that impossible: by the time I've opened the Start Screen, I've already forgotten what the next obscure step was, so I have to close the stupid Start Screen to refresh my memory and hope that I remember on the next try.

Also, in my work I often have to compare documents side by side -- for example, a manuscript in Word to a typeset PDF version. The sensible way to do this is to make two windows that are close to each other in size. But that's not possible in Metro.

Windows 8 still has the Desktop of course, but Microsoft clearly is pushing things toward Metro and its "simplicity." They're even flattening 3D window graphic effects and eliminating Aero, thus making the Desktop an ever-less appealing environment to work in. I get the hint.

--JorgeA

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I was thinking of the strange case of the ex-Microsoftie working at Amazon who started talking on his blog which disappeared and then re-appeared with a password! Fixing Windows 8 Blog

For background Google ''what happened to fixing windows 8" ... Dvorak ... PC-World ... many more.

I'll bet there is a holy war going on up there in Redmond (Thurrott actually said as much). I just hope a few more of the good guys inside use the media outlets to feed the growing backlash. It really is unbelievable.

I rememeber that site. By the time I heard of it and sought to see what Bibik had to say, the site was already down.

I just tried to visit that site again after several weeks. What a bizarre concept -- requiring a password to get onto a blog!?! How would you even contact the webmaster to sign up??

Guess that somebody doesn't want us to know how to "fix Windows 8."

--JorgeA

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Well, we have also evidence that there are worse ways to commit suicide:

it seems like using Comic Sans ( as BOB used to) is considered the most painful one and with the lowest chance of being lethal (fail at failing :w00t: )

jaclaz,

Thanks for the laugh in an otherwise grim topic!

Of all the things for people to get worked up about, though, Comic Sans has to be one of the strangest.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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Of all the things for people to get worked up about, though, Comic Sans has to be one of the strangest.

Yep, it's a classic ;):

http://tinyurl.com/3vmwb9l

.... I’m Comic Sans, and I’m the best thing to happen to typography since Johannes f***ing Gutenberg.

....

People love me. Why? Because I’m fun. I’m the life of the party. I bring levity to any situation.

....

I am on every major operating system since Microsoft f***ing Bob. I’m in your signs. I’m in your browsers. I’m in your instant messengers. I’m not just a font.

....

:lol:

jaclaz

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You know what would be justice?

I would LOVE to see some hacker write a Windows 8 only virus gag that does nothing except swap out all occurrences of Segoe UI (and all other system fonts) to ... Comic Sans

Please, someone make it happen. :thumbup Of course there is the danger that people may consider it an upgrade. Certainly the font fits very well into the sesame street theme.

DISCLAIMER: in no way do I support the malicious use of virii nor should this comment be associated with the owners of the great website!

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Windows 7 is a step back from this precisely because of what you described. Grouping taskbar items means that I need an additional click to see what's open.

That's definitely not what I'd personally call a step back. Yes, grouping was bad in the XP era (and to some extent Vista too), where we had super-wide taskbar buttons which very much suck. With a few tasks opened, the text was too narrow to be useful (the text might as well not have been there at all -- just like in Win7). And without grouping (if you're a heavy multitasker) you just end up with 72 gazillion buttons that are a few pixels wide which is even worse (don't know which one it is? Click them all one by one!). Win7 gave us nice big icons which you can spot far quicker than before (looks good too), and if you have loads of documents opened in the same app (which isn't the case with the vast majority -- it's mainly things like Explorer and Word which do) you can use the thumbnails to find it. And if you don't like grouping, you can disable it too (unlike Win8, we still have some options over functionality).

If anything, I'd say it's by FAR the best taskbar ever, and Win7's best feature hands down. It's one of the main reasons why I loathe to use older versions of Windows. Just my $0.02.

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Please, someone make it happen. :thumbup

Naah, why giving it yet another recognition?

A lesser known thing is that some people (rightly BTW) :thumbup consider the Watchmen movie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film)

the second most-hated thing derived from the comics, guess which is the first one?:

http://www.11points.com/web-tech/11_things_you_didn't_know_about_comic_sans

jaclaz

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TO GO DEEPER INTO STUPIDITY... The Microsoft team is coming up with a redesigned app screen for Windows 8 as they Discusses Windows 8 Tweaks After User Feedback.

The app screen looks furiousely like a desktop full of icons.

So what's the point???!

They are redesigning for the sake of redesigneing.

It's a total waste of time since they will inevitably get closer to classical desktop as they improve the crippled app list.

And they also come up with a Windows 8 Start Menu

that they "keep improving"... to the point it will finaly look like the one on w7.

I don't see the point in installing a completely different product, to find the same things at the end of the day, just diffrently arranged.

_____________

About Start Screen (Metro) and the Start Menu:

How we are making customization better

In terms of customization, you are definitely correct in saying that today you can customize the existing Start menu. The method that @Ed1p mentioned allows you to rename folders (breaking uninstall), move around files (breaking per user and per machine setup) and basically reorganize the tree of apps that exist on the system. For those brave souls out there who want to use drag and drop within the Start menu, this is also possible (albeit highly error prone).

However, these are very advanced ways of customizing your system, and unfortunately do not scale to a broad set of customers even if we initially intended them to. Not only do they take a lot of time, but the method is indirect since you’re not actually working within the Start menu. So it requires a lot of burdensome back and forth between Explorer windows and menu flyouts to get to the final result.

The personalization of the Start screen is one of the features that we want to make great, and we’re still iterating on it and to make it better. In the Windows Developer Preview, you can already try flexible group sizes, unpinning tiles, and resizing wide tiles to square tiles. And in the Beta, you’ll also be able to use other improvements based on this dialog, in addition to creating, naming, and rearranging groups.

....

The ability to put apps where you want them in a spatial layout, to use groupings to better enable recognition, and to move the tiles around on the screen should be a vast improvement over the Start menu. We believe this opens up a whole new world of organization and customization that will dramatically improve working with extremely large sets of apps and shortcuts.

link

She took a great pain explaining that the classic Start Menu is more difficult to use and configure than Metro.

Except that she forgot that Metro is a "desktop", a Start Screen not a Start Menu.

but even then, I'm not convince that arranging items on Metro is easier than on the Start Menu and definetly not if you use Explorer.

She claims that using Explorer is for advanced users. I wonder what is her definition of "advanced user" since every user is able to drag and drop files in Explorer.

That's even the most basic task on Windows.

The only thing you need is to know where Start Menu folders are, which is not difficult.

If poeple don't take time to arrange their Start Menu what make them think they will do it on Metro?

_____________

They'll continue on their journey to kill desktop computing, only to see massive growth in Android and iOS devices. They're just making themselves slowly irrelevant by making their main product worse, thus pushing users to their competitor's products

Unless Microsoft reverses course, I already consider Windows developement as discontinued. Windows is already abandonware to me.

W7 being the last and final version and unless Microsoft changes its policy, we'll still use W7 or earlier in 20 years.

W8 cannot succeed W7 if it's a completely different thing.

_____________

Grouping taskbar items means that I need an additional click to see what's open. So the first thing I do when setting up Windows 7 (or Windows 8 desktop) is to ungroup the taskbar items.

Grouping was made worse in W7 because it grouped them under the program's Quick Launch icon if there is one. So you don't even know if a instance of that program is already open because there is no taskbar button.

Taskbar preview can help for graphic apps, but is not very helpfull fo text apps where all windows look the same anyway.

Depending on the user, you may want or not want to enable taskbar preview.

That shows the important of user option.

The worse in W8 is the radical opposition to make things optional.

Edited by Fredledingue
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Windows 7 is a step back from this precisely because of what you described. Grouping taskbar items means that I need an additional click to see what's open.

That's definitely not what I'd personally call a step back.

CoffeeFiend,

This illustrates well why user choice is so important.

Personally, I find the wordless taskbar icons harder to use, as they don't immediately convey as much information to me as the wide verbose taskbar buttons. (Another thing I do right away with the Win7 taskbar is to make it short, as those big icons strike me as looking gaudy on top of being uninformative.) I often have 5-7 buttons going on the taskbar, and for my needs it's preferable to be able to see at once what each one is about.

My wife uses Win7 and makes extensive use of the grouping function. I find this maddening when she has a problem and I have to troubleshoot -- I feel like taking a machete with me. It's just not the way I thnk!

Myself, I seldom have more than 8 items going on at the same time (except maybe for IE tabs). In Vista I just let those stack themselves when necessary... but then it's such a PITA to have to go hunting for the right button in the group that I quickly start paring down the number of open items. :)

The bottom line, of course, is that Windows has been eminently customizable to suit the user's way of working/thinking, but with Windows 8 and Metro this aspect starts getting palpably curtailed.

--JorgeA

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This illustrates well why user choice is so important.

I very much agree. In fact, I think that's the whole point of using a computer (even more so one with Windows): you got choices. Tons of them. Not only do we have tons of customization in the OS department (we've always had to tweak some settings in Windows to make it better), but there's so much software for just about every job, and fantastic developer tools too. Whatever you need, there's software to do it -- some aimed at beginners (with simplified UIs e.g. a one-click video transcode app) and others for experts (e.g. avisynth scripting and MeGUI). With Win8, Microsoft is making choices that please almost nobody (unless you're on a mobile device -- something MS proved they can't sell time and time again) and they're making it the only option (more like a "device"), along with an Apple-like walled garden.

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MS making poor user interface decisions would allow other shell interfaces (ex: cairo shell) to gain some extra momentum.

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MS making poor user interface decisions would allow other shell interfaces (ex: cairo shell) to gain some extra momentum.

I'd never heard of it! Just came back from visiting their website. The idea sure is intriguing, although it looks like the most recent version is more than two years old. Maybe the release of Windows 8 with the Metro UI will give 'em a boost.

If this thing or something like it could replace Metro (and not merely the classic Desktop), I could see myself actually buying/using Windows 8. Depending on the results of real-life testing...

Thanks for bringing it up.

--JorgeA

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