JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

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The idea sure is intriguing, although it looks like the most recent version is more than two years old. Maybe the release of Windows 8 with the Metro UI will give 'em a boost.

There's been a bunch of such alternative shells for years. Most of them aren't well known, because there's never been much of a demand, and most of them suck pretty badly too. The feature (replacing the shell) has been used mainly by people who want to lock the system down, allowing a single program to run (a "kiosk mode" of sorts). I don't see such shells taking off anytime soon. If anything people will just stick to older versions of Windows or move on to something else (just like they always have), instead of building themselves a frankein-OS consisting of the kernel of a unusable OS, along with a so-so 3rd party shell nobody uses or has ever heard of, and perhaps some extras bolted-on top of it.

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I emailed Steven Sinofsky from a fresh email address (the previous one he blocked me :angry: ) with the removed features list and here's what his reply was:

"Thanks. It seems like you should be more complete and not just say start menu but you should include every single aspect of the start menu that changed and count that as a removed feature. Also note we have removed the capability to run 16 bit Windows apps and DOS apps."

Note how is trying to be sarcastic/insulting and mocks me for not listing every feature of the Start Menu. Why should I when I don't consider the Start screen a replacement of the Start menu at all? :rolleyes: I consider it some zombie alternative UI that they're trying to pitch in as a replacement. And he's wrong about the 16-bit capability too as 32-bit Windows 8 still has 16-bit NTVDM like all previous 32-bit releases of Windows. :D

I have got hundreds of such jerk replies from him. If I show them all here, some people will be truly shocked. I wonder whether he actually replies or some jerk replies on his behalf. One of my other addresses was blocked from sending any email to him because I repeatedly but politely requested him to fix many broken features in Windows 7 which we eventually fixed with Classic Shell. Then after a while, some rude jerk started replying from his address to me posting inaccurate and rude replies.My guess is if you email him from a fresh email address, it is he who replies until the moment you complain a little bit and say you don't like something in Windows and then he stops replying to you and tells someone else to "handle" replies to you.

Edited by xpclient
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Frankstained OS already happened since DOS era though.

Some replacing PC-DOS's IBMIO.COM & IBMDOS.COM with their own bios handling routine.

For those less tech savvy as myself, replacing MS-DOS's command.com with one from Norton, and i really like what i get.

And of course those numerous shell replacement for win 3.x

But yeah, it seems MS dislike those practices, banning any shell replacement to be bundled with win95.

Since win9x's shells were quite good (at that time), demands for shell replacement were changed into task-specific purposes,

I've seen employment of specifics shells in kiosks or net-cafees,

I never knew of general purpose shell replacement for windows 95 or later,

its becomes so quiet unlike those in win3.x era,

that is until this metro-for-desktop retardness comes in.

Edited by Joseph_sw
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The idea sure is intriguing, although it looks like the most recent version is more than two years old. Maybe the release of Windows 8 with the Metro UI will give 'em a boost.

There's been a bunch of such alternative shells for years. Most of them aren't well known, because there's never been much of a demand, and most of them suck pretty badly too. The feature (replacing the shell) has been used mainly by people who want to lock the system down, allowing a single program to run (a "kiosk mode" of sorts). I don't see such shells taking off anytime soon. If anything people will just stick to older versions of Windows or move on to something else (just like they always have), instead of building themselves a frankein-OS consisting of the kernel of a unusable OS, along with a so-so 3rd party shell nobody uses or has ever heard of, and perhaps some extras bolted-on top of it.

Fascinating -- this is a whole angle about OS's that I never knew about! (Or was at best dimly aware of.)

Now, based on what you know about Windows 8, to me the $64 question is: is it even possible to replace the Metro start screen with anything like this? (My semi-educated guess is that it is not.)

--JorgeA

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Unless Microsoft reverses course, I already consider Windows developement as discontinued. Windows is already abandonware to me.

W7 being the last and final version

You know, this was pretty shocking when I first read it, but looking at it again, it doesn't sound so strange anymore.

--JorgeA

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Frankstained OS already happened since DOS era though

Sure, we tweaked it a bit but we weren't exactly swapping large complex parts like we'd be today. Systems were much simpler back then. And yes, it's been that long since.

Some replacing PC-DOS's IBMIO.COM & IBMDOS.COM with their own bios handling routine

I can't think of too many specific examples here as 99% of the work I've done under DOS was with MS-DOS. But TSR's and hooking interrupts with your own handler was extremely common (it's the way things worked, from mouse drivers, to mscdex, to networking and whatever) and not frankeinstein-ish. If you're referring to using lightly patched files, then that wouldn't be a big deal either. I wouldn't say that replacing large-ish parts of the OS with completely different code was very common back then either (everything was bolted-on in a very hack-ish manner), albeit more so than it is today.

replacing MS-DOS's command.com with one from Norton

Or 4DOS which I used back then but it never gained much popularity either.

And of course those numerous shell replacement for win 3.x

None of which I've ever heard of (my memory might be failing me though) or that got overly popular...

I've seen employment of specifics shells in kiosks or net-cafees

I've written such shell replacements ;) Last time being a year ago or so (for Karaoke systems for someone on this forum). That's been the main use for alternate shells since Win9x really. It locks people out of stuff they shouldn't touch, and such simple "kiosk apps" are often very quick and easy to write unlike full-featured shell replacements. For example, KDE (a desktop environment for Linux) has over 6 million lines of code (whereas the Karaoke app was closer to 60 lines)

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is it even possible to replace the Metro start screen with anything like this? (My semi-educated guess is that it is not.)

Just that part alone? That's highly unlikely. You'd most likely have to replace the desktop along with it too, and the file explorer (some parts of IE might rely on it too), the taskbar (with the zone for tray icons), various shell-provided features like the control panel, volume control, network connections, etc (lots of things having to be compatible with the old system it would replace). To recreate Win7's shell as-is it would take millions and millions of lines of code. It would take years to write, maintain and bugfix -- assuming you can even find the developer talent (a small army of highly skilled programmers willing to work for free instead of spending time with their families). It's a whole lot easier to just keep using Win7 until 2020 or later ;)

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MS making poor user interface decisions would allow other shell interfaces (ex: cairo shell) to gain some extra momentum.

I'd never heard of it! Just came back from visiting their website. The idea sure is intriguing, although it looks like the most recent version is more than two years old. Maybe the release of Windows 8 with the Metro UI will give 'em a boost.

--JorgeA

Its has been a while since I have used cairo I have been out of the computer seen for a while lol.

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the second most-hated thing derived from the comics, guess which is the first one?:

http://www.11points.com/web-tech/11_things_you_didn't_know_about_comic_sans

Great link. :yes: I have to agree with the point that the font has its uses. It never really bothered me like it does some people, maybe because Microsoft didn't FORCE me to use it and look at it (take a hint Steven S.).

Here's an idea. Maybe we should begin a viral tradition right here and now by always using Comic Sans when referring to Windows 8. Here, I'll start ...

Microsoft Windows 8 : because you were too distracted by the Eye Candy in Windows 7

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Unless Microsoft reverses course, I already consider Windows developement as discontinued. Windows is already abandonware to me.

W7 being the last and final version

You know, this was pretty shocking when I first read it, but looking at it again, it doesn't sound so strange anymore.

You know, when a new OS is so different than everything you are used to, it's not the same product anymore.

It wasn't only to bash W8 that I said that.

It's also because W8 is not an improvement of W7.

W8 doesn't belong to the desktop PC OS family which genealogic tree started with Windows 1.0 for DOS, and the NT branch which made W7 a direct descendant of Windows 2000, W98 and ME being remote cousins.

W8 is what? ...Something wierd we have a hard time to understand the rationale behind it.

It's a joke, a circus show...

You can't take seriousely something like that.

Better forget it once the preview testing will be done.

Here's an idea. Maybe we should begin a viral tradition right here and now by always using Comic Sans when referring to Windows 8. Here, I'll start ...

Microsoft Windows 8 : because you were too distracted by the Eye Candy in Windows 7

LOL! :D =))

Edited by Fredledingue
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You know, when a new OS is so different than everything you are used to, it's not the same product anymore.

Yup. Just like you said, that's how Windows 7 became (or could be viewed as) a type of abandonware.

W8 doesn't belong to the desktop PC OS family which genealogic tree started with Windows 1.0 for DOS, and the NT branch which made W7 a direct descendant of Windows 2000, W98 and ME being remote cousins.

W8 is what? ...Something wierd we have a hard time to understand the rationale behind it.

It's a joke, a circus show...

You can't take seriousely something like that.

I agree completely. Windows 8 Metro is a toy interface for toy devices. It's unbelievable but true that MS is pushing this cr*p on everybody -- and they're being quite smug and sarcastic about it, if xpclient's reports above are to be believed (and I have no reason NOT to believe them).

--JorgeA

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Try not to laugh too hard. Move your coffee, soda, beer away from your display ...

Microsoft shows how Windows 8 is the most flexible platform to date

Windows 8 is a radical change in terms of its user interface compared to earlier versions of Windows for Microsoft. But what if you wanted to develop an application or game that would run on both Windows 8 and Windows 7?

The keynote included a demo, run by Microsoft's Linda Averett, that showed how the Windows 8 hypervisor software could not only run a version of Windows 7 on the same PC, but could even display both Windows 8 and Windows 7 running at the same time by splitting the monitor. Averett showed a Windows 8 Metro version of the game Cut The Rope that was on one side of the screen while also showing a Windows 7 version of the same game on the other side.

bwahaha! Windows 8 pioneers VM! rotflmao.gif

But what if you wanted to develop an application or game that would run on both Windows 8 and Windows 7?

ummmm, that used to be called backward compatibility! That is what an OS platform was meant to accomplish. Go ahead and un-invent the concept. Go ahead and recommend using a VM to correct your Operating System defect that kills backward compatibility. Go ahead and use Cut The Rope as your benchmark. OMG, This is like an alternate universe. The only rational explanation is that Steve Jobs is wrecking havoc as a ghost in the machine of Microsoft.

Microsoft Windows 8 : it lets you play games like Cut The Rope!

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I have to agree with the point that the font has its uses. It never really bothered me like it does some people, maybe because Microsoft didn't FORCE me to use it and look at it (take a hint Steven S.).

If you think a bit about it, it is EXACTLY the same issue.

Comic Sans is not as bad as people like to depict it in itself, and it was actually IMHO a "perfect fit" for the Rover balloons (or more generally for comics ballons, as our (at least mine ;)) ancestors would say:

nomen est omen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_(full)#N

AS LONG AS Comic Sans is kept within the right context, not only it doesn't bother anyone, but it is also appropriate.

Metro :ph34r: , AS LONG AS it remains confined within the boundaries of a small sized touchscreen (whilst still looking awful) it may (with some fantasy and good will :whistle: ) be deemed appropriate, it is when you use it on a non-tiny-screened, non-touchscreen-thingy that it becomes a PITA (as well as if you are actually using the PC to do something).

I would then propose to choose either the inappropriate adjective or any of it's synonyms, possibly adding to it some additional strength:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/inappropriate

Synonyms:

amiss, graceless, improper, inapposite, inapt, incongruous, incorrect, indecorous, inept, infelicitous, malapropos, perverse, unapt, unbecoming, unfit, unhappy, unseemly, unsuitable, untoward, wrong

and never actually refer to "Metro" (BTW, Italians should collectively sue MS for predating from their dictionary, an otherwise perfectly innocuous word, metro, that means "meter" will soon be inextricably associated with "bad taste" and "failure" :w00t: ) , but rather to the "quite inappropriate interface of Windows 8", or "remarkably inept", or "utterly unfit", etc.....

Personally I would choose "undoubtedly infelicitous". :unsure:

jaclaz

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tons of other things (like using SIMD instruction sets, or something for GPGPU programing).

this is done already. VS2010 can compile SSE2 (that's why Win8 requires SSE2 compatible CPU) and VS2012 adds GPU ciding : AMP C++

Windows 7 is a step back from this precisely because of what you described. Grouping taskbar items means that I need an additional click to see what's open.

That's definitely not what I'd personally call a step back.

CoffeeFiend,

This illustrates well why user choice is so important.

yes, I personally like the Win7 taskbar. This is the onyl real good improvement in Windows 7. So everyone has his personal tastes and so choice is very important.

I emailed Steven Sinofsky from a fresh email address (the previous one he blocked me :angry: ) with the removed features list and here's what his reply was:

"Thanks. It seems like you should be more complete and not just say start menu but you should include every single aspect of the start menu that changed and count that as a removed feature. "

Note how is trying to be sarcastic/insulting and mocks me for not listing every feature of the Start Menu.

yes, this is the typical Sinofsky arrogance. It makes no sense to discuss which him. Simple solution is DON'T BUY/use Windows 8 and show him this way that he is not the middle point of the universe and forcing users to like what he likes is wrong.

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