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JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

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One of the best short analyses of what's going on with Microsoft and Windows 8 appeared in the comments section to this article:

In Microsoft's vision, developers will be coding for Metro/WinRT and the rich, windowing applications of Win32 are just a necessary casualty for Microsoft to gain traction in the consumer space. Thus, Win7 is really an orphaned OS, because nothing developed for Metro/WinRT would run on it.

Win8 is totally disruptive. It is not a "change", it is really a new, mostly mobile OS that does run Win32 apps (as a concession to backwards compatibility). Users who want to continue with rich, windowing desktop applications must transition to something else. Maybe in the future, Metro/WinRT will become capable of supporting rich, windowing applications but I do not see this happening. If, in MS's vision, most computing is going to happen on smartphones and tablets, why bother providing windowing capabilities to WinRT? In addition, touch necessitates simplification.

What do you think of the idea of Windows 7 as an "orphaned OS"?

Read the entire comment by "ADRz" dated March 24 at 04:00 PM -- all of it is worthwhile. And Paul Thurrott seems to be having more second thoughts about Windows 8 -- see the article itself.

--JorgeA

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I read that article too and I love the new explorer, task manager and ISO mounting features.

The funny thing is, that's the same 3 features everybody wants out of Win8. Every post I see everywhere more or less that:

New explorer, new task manager, ISO mounting, but Metro must DIE!

The first two are just "nice to have" (but we can definitely live without it), the 3rd merely saves you from installing a freeware app like daemon tools lite, but the most important part by far is disabling Metro, and that's the one thing they won't let you do...

the experience is just horrible. Worse yet, I think that consumers are going to be confused by it.

+1 to that.

he is apologizing for the bad features while trying to stay positive

Damning with faint praise? ;) Of course he can't actually say something bad about it. Thankfully we're not sock puppets and therefore we can.

But yeah, long time user here too (MS-DOS days), and I'm totally convinced Win8 will flop FAR worse than ME or Vista ever did. It's a huge bag of fail, and nobody wants of it understandably. Enthusiasts and fanboys alike are quickly losing interest in Win8 before it's even released. That's saying something! Betas should have people all excited (like the Photoshop CS6 Beta which is totally AWESOME!), not angered, worried, sad and disgusted like this (and already looking forward to its replacement and/or moving to other operating systems).

Win8 is totally disruptive. It is not a "change", it is really a new, mostly mobile OS that does run Win32 apps (as a concession to backwards compatibility).

Which is what I've been saying all along. Tell users that all their Win32 apps are now legacy junk, while these apps are the sole reason to use Windows in the first place, also giving the finger to all devs of the said apps at the same time. And then force everyone to use their desktops as a smart phone with dinky apps that only work on Win8.

What do you think of the idea of Windows 7 as an "orphaned OS"?

It's not Win7 that's orphaned here, it's the entire Windows line, its history and its very purpose at the same time. They're making the desktop, multitasking, and "traditional" apps (without which Windows is completely worthless) 2nd class citizens (or killing it altogether on ARM tablets) while forcing Metro on you. It's like Windows, but without all the good stuff from it, and with Metro crammed down your throat. Whoever thought this was a good idea needs to be fired NOW.

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This new metro-apps are for retards, if you ask me. Sinofsky definitely has some childhood issues, probably because his mom didn't let him play with cubes and now his sticking his **** cubes down our throats. :unsure:

Sinofsky, wake the heck up, it's a **** nightmare! :realmad:

Edited by Win2k3EE
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This new metro-apps are for retards, if you ask me.

I thought it was Ballmer and Sinofski that went full retard myself.

VS 11 also happens to suck, the .NET framework 4.5 brings almost nothing new or worthwhile (just the async keyword which I don't see myself use too often anyway), other than dropping support for XP and Vista which together still account for more than half the computers on this planet.

They could make upgrades free for both and I still wouldn't use 'em.

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Sinofsky definitely has some childhood issues, probably because his mom didn't let him play with cubes and now his sticking his **** cubes down our throats. :unsure:

I was laughing outloud at this, till I remembered that I'm the one (along with millions of others) who's being told to play with these stupid blocks or find a different playground.

--JorgeA

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I thought it was Ballmer and Sinofski that went full retard myself.

CoffeeFiend,

Very funny (and appropriate), I'd forgotten that scene from the movie! :lol:

VS 11 also happens to suck, the .NET framework 4.5 brings almost nothing new or worthwhile (just the async keyword which I don't see myself use too often anyway), other than dropping support for XP and Vista which together still account for more than half the computers on this planet.

Uh-oh, looks like the obsolescing of my Vista has started. Well, at least I have Vista SP3 (Windows 7) to fall back on.

BTW, I'm curious what you, as a developer, think about ADRz's take on MS's strategy:

Microsoft wants developers to code for Metro/WinRT like crazy and it needs to "offer" to them hundreds of millions of desktop users to entice them. If users are able to "customize" their desktop, most would prefer to customize it according to their usage patterns; Then developers would hardly be enticed to developed for Metro/WinRT. Just face it. Microsoft needs at least 200,000 Metro/WinRT applications to compete in the mobile space. It would not get this number with its current market share. It can only achieve it by the "tablificattion of the desktop". OEMs sell 150 million PCs a year. Converting all of them into "tablets", would provide an immense incentive for programmers to code for Metro/WinRT.

--JorgeA

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Uh-oh, looks like the obsolescing of my Vista has started.

You needn't be worried. Developers aren't stupid enough to drop support for so many computers anytime soon. I easily see us supporting XP for another 5 years at least (unlike at MS, client's king, and if we drop support they'll want our head on a silver platter) and Vista even longer. In this case it's MS' new tools that won't get used -- especially when it had so little new going for it and that the new dev tools suck too.

I'm curious what you, as a developer, think about ADRz's take on MS's strategy

That it's a failed strategy regardless. There's 2 options for Windows tablets:

-x86/x64 tablets which are heavy, bulky, cumbersome, overly expensive, etc (very much unlike a tablet e.g. Lenovo's Ideapad Yoga) but have the advantage of being able to run traditional apps that are meant to be used with the keyboard/mouse and that will suck on a tablet anyway. Its only advantage is that you can awkwardly run software that's ill-suited for touch in the first place. I don't see this catching on any better than XP Tablet edition did.

-ARM tablets which have absolutely nothing in common with traditional Windows besides the name. It doesn't actually run anything useful. It doesn't offer users or developers one single advantage over any other tablet OS. Less apps to begin with for users (I sure wouldn't buy one). And without users there's no money to make selling apps either. It's a LOT more like Windows Phone (which clearly doesn't sell) than Windows. Best case scenario, people port their iOS and Android apps to it, and it just becomes yet another tablet with the same stuff as all the others. But since MS wants to restrict the number of these in the first place, that all their mobile device attempts always fail pretty badly (Zune, WP, etc) and that their online services tend to suck (I don't expect the app store to be any better) I clearly don't see a bright future for it.

Then developers would hardly be enticed to developed for Metro/WinRT.

We have no plans to develop for Metro/WinRT anytime soon, no matter where it might run. There's zero demand for it, it has essentially zero market share, and it's not cost effective in any way, shape or form.

It can only achieve it by the "tablificattion of the desktop"

That's their plan. but the end result will be that they merely succeeded in creating their very worst desktop OS ever. If anything, turning our desktop OS into such a disaster made me associate Metro with concepts like "fail" and "suck", and so will tons of others (just like what "Vista" now means to most people). Yep, now I'll certainly want to develop for that and then buy a poor tablet where the same garbage I already loathe is forced onto me.

Win9 can't come out soon enough and they can't afford to screw that one up so badly either. Then again, it's kind of like Intel does with their architecture (tick-tock), except that for MS it's more like Tick-Flop. Until then we'll keep hearing about downgrade rights for new PCs, people that need help upgrading their newly bought PC to Win7, start menu replacements apps and so on. Meanwhile, we're stuck with Win7 for the next few years (until around 2018 I guess) which will turn stale just like XP did after so many years.

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I'll risk going OT :ph34r: (actually going OT :w00t:) to post a snippet I really liked, but unrelated as being of a much more "generic" nature:

http://lea.hamradio.si/~s57uuu/uuusb/uuusb_software.htm

Modern software is horrible.

If you give a software guy the task of adding 2 + 2, he will bring together a bunch of huge software toolboxes and libraries, write a few Java and Python scripts plus modify a few configuration files...

Then he'll present you with a 500MB monster that will take 3 seconds of crunching on a X GHz processor, and will produce a result of 3.85

...and he will be proud of it, because it is fully web enabled, symmetrically virtualized, object oriented and compliant with the latest client-server transaction model.

YUCK!

jaclaz

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M$ definetely going overboard with their "Forced-Obselescene Plan"

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I was thinking of a different angle for Win8 yesterday. I was at a family gathering and we talked about tablets in the Enterprise. Almost no companies are allowing them into the corporate network, but that could actually change with Windows 8. The only exception would be WOA, which I heard can't be used to join a domain. But again that's just tablets, where I think Win8 would be just fine.

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Why is this video not playing the first time you start up Windows 8? I think that they need to do something like this for the final release. Sort of like the XP first time startup. I have actually been running Mint Linux on my laptop with a Win7 VM on to of it because I was so frustrated with Win8. I may load it up again and give it another try.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/get-started?page=vid2

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Yes! New ClassicShell brings a Startmenu software which works better than Metro-Hell or other 3rd party solutions like ViStart:

post-70718-0-03890900-1332794758_thumb.p

:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup

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Yes! New ClassicShell brings a Startmenu software which works better than Metro-Hell or other 3rd party solutions like ViStart:

post-70718-0-03890900-1332794758_thumb.p

:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup

Thank you MagicAndre1981!! This is the tool to help stop the switching but give us the File Explorer and quick startup and shutdowns.

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Win8 makes much more fun after installing and configuring ClassicShell.

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Win8 makes much more fun after installing and configuring ClassicShell.

MagicAndre,

Oh yeah, no question about it. I'm using Start Menu X, with a comparable (that is, much more tolerable) experience.

Does ClassicShell remember and list your most frequently used programs?

Neither ClassicShell nor Start Menu X look anything like like the Vista/Win7 Start Menu. I'm still hoping that somebody will replicate the "look and feel" of the real Start Menu, like Vistart but without its drawbacks. We might call it a "no compromises" Start Menu. ;)

--JorgeA

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Why is this video not playing the first time you start up Windows 8? I think that they need to do something like this for the final release. Sort of like the XP first time startup. I have actually been running Mint Linux on my laptop with a Win7 VM on to of it because I was so frustrated with Win8. I may load it up again and give it another try.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/get-started?page=vid2

cyberpyr8,

That would help, for sure. On startup, Windows 98 has a "Welcome to Windows 98" that invites the user to explore the OS's features and innovations. I've never taken it off my Win98 machines, as I like the cool music that plays as the resident programs load.

And Vista has a Welcome Center, which also shows on startup and among other things has a place to click if the user wants to learn what's new in that OS. Given the radical changes in Windows 8, Microsoft would be crazy not to include something like this in the RTM.

--JorgeA

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I was thinking of a different angle for Win8 yesterday. I was at a family gathering and we talked about tablets in the Enterprise. Almost no companies are allowing them into the corporate network, but that could actually change with Windows 8. The only exception would be WOA, which I heard can't be used to join a domain. But again that's just tablets, where I think Win8 would be just fine.

Tripredacus,

If I understand it, MS's intention is to offer only WOA for tablets, no? And it's been announced that WOA will offer no desktop or desktop applications, a purely Metro experience. (In any case, I can't imagine launching desktop programs or clicking on itty-bitty arrows on the Office ribbon with a finger on a tiny tablet screen.) If that's the case, and WOA devices can't join a domain, then they would be no better off than iPads and Android tablets when it comes to acceptance in the Enterprise environment.

Windows 8 is said to be a fine OS for tablets -- I'll take people's word for it, I have zero interest in using a tablet. But If the above is true, then when it comes to tablets there's nothing particular to recommend Win8 over the existing choices.

I guess they might bring back Intel-based tablets, with suitable Metrofied applications. Maybe that's the angle?

Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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I'll risk going OT :ph34r: (actually going OT :w00t:) to post a snippet I really liked, but unrelated as being of a much more "generic" nature:

jaclaz,

It certainly was OT :) , but interesting nonetheless.

I also liked this other thing the guy said:

the world has developed in such a direction that you can't get the bandwidth without swallowing an overdose of unnecessary sophistication first.

[emphasis added]

--JorgeA

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M$ definetely going overboard with their "Forced-Obselescene Plan"

Joseph,

Interesting point. No doubt the MS folks have wondered what it might do for sales to Metrofy everything so that customers have to buy new versions of all their favorite programs.

OTOH, the risk is that sales will plummet rather than soar, as the market rebels and users either stick with what they've got or switch to Linux or some other stabler, less grasping platform. Can you say, LibreOffice? :angry:

--JorgeA

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This newspaper headline was about something else entirely, but I couldn't help but think that it was somehow appropriate to our discussion:

Metro derailed by culture of complacence, incompetence, lack of diversity

--JorgeA

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M$ definetely going overboard with their "Forced-Obselescene Plan"

Thankfully some people already figured out how to make programs compiled with the latest VC++ work on XP & 2003.

Then again I don't see anyone moving to VS 11 in the near future, much less using the .NET framework 4.5 which brings so little besides incompatibility, the usual price tag and an overly depressing gray theme wtih CAPS.

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Paul Thurrott takes another step back from Windows 8 cheerleading:

Those of us who use traditional PCs - -which today is roughly described as "everybody" -- will stick primarily to the desktop environment, with its amazing application availability, advanced multitasking, support for large displays, and the like. Because of the way Windows 8 is designed, these users will, however, need to deal with the Metro environment whether they want to or not: Key system-level features such as the new Start experience, the new Back experience, the new Switcher task-switching interface, the Charms bar, notifications (which arrive as both full-screen experiences and flyover toasts), Snap (the side-by-side app screen sharing functionality), Search, Settings, and probably more, are all served up by Metro, and often in a very jarring fashion.

I'm glad to see that the more he uses Win8, the more balanced and better aware of the new OS's drawbacks that his approach has become. Let's hope the trend continues!

--JorgeA

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A "whether you like it or not" type of approach only works when there is one option. :rolleyes:

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