JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

6,162 posts in this topic

Thanks for the additional links. Since you brought up a food analogy, let me extend it a little. Let's just say that, in my earlier post, I had eyed the offerings at the self-serve restaurant, and didn't find anything particularly appetizing. :)

Fair enough, and I suppose 'self-serve' is a fair analogy to just about all things Linux, and currently that's really the only place anything is going on in the way of 'desktop' TWM development -- but eying is not trying and there are authentic Chinese buffets that are staggeringly good if you're brave enough to go beyond just eying!

:)

(Ending the analogy) Now I've watched the video, read the manifesto excerpt and your exposition, and clicked on the images in the Wikipedia article to take a closer look. I still don't find anything compelling about the tiling model. I don't mind managing my own windows -- I get to arrange them as I prefer.

Fair again, but in a TWM you still manage your own windows; you just don't have to do the same thing multiple times, and most even allow for cascading so that's not a feature or capability sacrificed...

All that said, can you link me to demonstrations some of the more sophisticated TWMs in action? Thanks!

Sadly the most advanced TWM interface development is actually going on in production application interface design, though some of these features make their way up the food chain into some Linux TWM's -- there is no one TWM that really offers an encompassing example of 'Thee State Of The Art' as most are built to serve their Developer's pet wish interests that typically revolve around software development -- with almost nothing in the way of demos that will do much to impress the uninitiated.

That said and this is where this digression takes me back on topic; when I first saw Windows 8 Metro I thought: 'Oh goody, finally a big gun like Microsoft is going to turn the sheer power of the Dark Side loose on TWM design and we're finally going to see Microsoft do for the TWM what they did for the CWM!'... I'm confident that on learning what Metro really was that my disappointment eclipsed most people's reactions...

To put it in a positive light; a favorable and even compelling outcome may yet be possible; both Metro and the Windows 8 Desktop appear to be running inside an OpenGL compositer so there may at least be some infrastructure in place for some real TWM capability. With that we could all have our cake and eat it to, as the ultimate TWM is totally transparent and would allow you to cascade, click and manually sort windows in any manner that you have the time and desire to pursue. But it could also offer the functionality that includes and goes well beyond simple tiling and track sizing, Metro in entire could be run in a window, as could your 'desktop' or even multiple local and remote desktops; data and applications could be 'windowed' or tiled, collated, and sorted and with a single mouse click, you have instantly organized and scrollable chronology, exploded perk, or subject streams etc...

Unfortunately this will probably remain more a tinker toy of script and keyboard driven hacking and farting around with the likes of gridmgr and Ion on compiz -- but maybe someday...

:D

Edited by hoak
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two brand new WP8 announcements ...

Nokia unveils the Lumia 820 ( NeoWin 2012-08-05 )

Nokia unveils the Lumia 920 ( NeoWin 2012-08-05 )

UPDATE: I added their photos to the previous smartphone comparison photos from upthread. The new WP8 photos were copied from the above two links, pasted into the originals very carefully ( I promise ) to make it as fair as possible. Here they all are ...

ZLZJm.jpg

8UqLu.jpg

acayh.jpg

NOTE: I couldn't figure out a nice way to make the 3rd photo work, so I left it alone.

Just asking, what does everybody think their chances are in this market? Is this gonna do it? Apple announcements are in the queue and I bet Samsung is going to revamp their 'droids as well.

Well, if I were a 3-year-old (or had the worldview of a 3-year-old ;) ), there's no doubt that I would pick the phone with the garish yellow squares! :lol:

--JorgeA

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the additional links. Since you brought up a food analogy, let me extend it a little. Let's just say that, in my earlier post, I had eyed the offerings at the self-serve restaurant, and didn't find anything particularly appetizing.

Fair enough, and I suppose 'self-serve' is a fair analogy to just about all things Linux, and currently that's really the only place anything is going on in the way of 'desktop' TWM development -- but eying is not trying and there are authentic Chinese buffets that are staggeringly good if you're brave enough to go beyond just eying!

My experiences with exotic food haven't been exactly happy ones. :} All too often, when I've tried something exotic-looking, I've lived to regret it (sometimes barely). One time I had a Chinese something-or-other that had me up in the middle of the night with abdominal pains rivalled only by those caused by kidney stones. Another time I happily bit into a Mongolian beef stew that turned out to be the most disgusting, inedible meal I've ever tried! :puke:

The saying goes that "whatever doesn't kill me, makes me stronger." In my case, I'd amend "stronger" to "wiser"! But we digress...

(Ending the analogy) Now I've watched the video, read the manifesto excerpt and your exposition, and clicked on the images in the Wikipedia article to take a closer look. I still don't find anything compelling about the tiling model. I don't mind managing my own windows -- I get to arrange them as I prefer.

Fair again, but in a TWM you still manage your own windows; you just don't have to do the same thing multiple times, and most even allow for cascading so that's not a feature or capability sacrificed...

OK, I'm curious: In the model you're describing, can I overlap windows such that only little areas of each show on the screen at the same time -- let's say, the upper left corner of one window (which might contain a certain command I need to remember to enter); the middle (not left and right) portion of several lines of text for another window; the right column of a two-column book PDF in a third; and the bottom right corner of a fourth window... all while Task Manager is running in a Restored Down (not minimized) square while not obscuring any of the other parts of windows I want to see.

Just to make sure, because tone doesn't necessarily come through in a written text: That's a totally earnest, sincere question.

All that said, can you link me to demonstrations some of the more sophisticated TWMs in action? Thanks!

Sadly the most advanced TWM interface development is actually going on in production application interface design, though some of these features make their way up the food chain into some Linux TWM's -- there is no one TWM that really offers an encompassing example of 'Thee State Of The Art' as most are built to serve their Developer's pet wish interests that typically revolve around software development -- with almost nothing in the way of demos that will do much to impress the uninitiated.

Bummer. I gather, then, that the most sophisticated TWM treatments aren't really an option for the average PC user?

--JorgeA

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My experiences with exotic food haven't been exactly happy ones. :} All too often, when I've tried something exotic-looking, I've lived to regret it (sometimes barely). One time I had a Chinese something-or-other that had me up in the middle of the night with abdominal pains rivalled only by those caused by kidney stones. Another time I happily bit into a Mongolian beef stew that turned out to be the most disgusting, inedible meal I've ever tried! :puke:

The saying goes that "whatever doesn't kill me, makes me stronger." In my case, I'd amend "stronger" to "wiser"! But we digress...

E'gads, well I'll steer clear of the culinary analogies...

OK, I'm curious: In the model you're describing, can I overlap windows such that only little areas of each show on the screen at the same time -- let's say, the upper left corner of one window (which might contain a certain command I need to remember to enter); the middle (not left and right) portion of several lines of text for another window; the right column of a two-column book PDF in a third; and the bottom right corner of a fourth window... all while Task Manager is running in a Restored Down (not minimized) square while not obscuring any of the other parts of windows I want to see.

Whew! A sentence almost as long as some of mine! And the answer is yes, actually several TWM's are just extension of existing Window Managers, and you can cascade and lay out your desktop just as you can now in Windows 7 for example, and you can also even save those 'layout's even though they're not technically 'tiled'...

Just to make sure, because tone doesn't necessarily come through in a written text: That's a totally earnest, sincere question.

Jorge you've never come across as a nasty, sarcastic or anything other then an earnest and sincere person; I thorougly enjoy reading your posts!

Bummer. I gather, then, that the most sophisticated TWM treatments aren't really an option for the average PC user?

That's an interesting question on several levels, as what is an average PC user? It used to be I felt I had a loose sense of what that might be, but today I don't even have a clue what it means, though I have a feeling that Microsoft has decided the 'average PC user' is an idi*t, and everything must be predicated on that assumption.

To answer your question though it depends on what you use your PC for, there are some amazing TWM features in production apps; from finance and stock tracking to audio post production, that when I first saw them it was a 'Holly S***!' moment for me, where I knew if these features were used as part of a file manager or desktop interface no one could deny how cool they were or their utility.

The most impressive TWM that are actual desktop setups typically use some highly customized script designed for the applications a person runs, and how that they actually uses their computer -- so what might be obviously impressive for its utility in a demo for one person is completely lack luster for another.

Here's one little demo of xmonad on the Arch Linux distro that I like, he's running a minimalist UI with all the control chrome turned and/or with the interface moved into the applications themselves. He moves fast, and that's the point; the UI completely keeps up with him, with manual, automated and context sensitive launching of windows -- displayed in both preconfigured and on the fly manually configured tiled and cascaded layouts.

Some of the rudimentary features fo a TWM are even available to Windows users via third party applications like:

· bug.n (a favorite)

· python-windows-tiler

· Windawesome

· Plumb

· Windawesome

· WindowSizer

· HashTWM

· GridMove

· MaxTo

· Mizage

· Twinsplay

· Winsplit-Revolution

· HashTWM

But note these are not real TWM's, as Microsoft Windows does not even have a real 'Window Manager' and are all far behind even the oldest TWM's for Linux with respect to features and capability....

:)

Edited by hoak
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hoak,

Wow, that was amazing. Approaching the 30-second mark into the video I was still doubtful about this -- and then the overlapping windows made their grand entrance! B)

That's no merely "tiled" window manager as I've understood it! It's a cut (or two) above. Very impressive. I'm beginning to see why you like the concept so much. If Metro were anything like this, I could happily work in it...

Thank you for the demonstration.

Now, let me rephrase my poorly stated question about whether this sort of thing is available to the "average" PC user. Let's put it this way: when you write that --

there is no one TWM that really offers an encompassing example of 'Thee State Of The Art' as most are built to serve their Developer's pet wish interests that typically revolve around software development -- with almost nothing in the way of demos that will do much to impress the uninitiated

-- I gather that this sort of sophisticated TWM isn't available to the public on the 'Net for general-purpose computing, be it for sale or free, as a disk or download. Rather, the best TWMs are proprietary ones used in specific settings for limited purposes.

You provided a lot of links at the end of your last post. You know what my Web surfing wil involve tomorrow!

--JorgeA

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yet the now un-named Metro/NCI already dubbed as 'Modern'.

why are heck they named it as 'modern'?

I mean, Microsoft design team already said that this Metro/NCI were inspired by signs commonly found at public transport systems,

and usages of such signs were already exist since... well... more than a centuries ago?

its definetely already existed way before the IBM PC began, and now they want to call it as 'Modern' ?

I'm with you here. "Modern" -- what a joke. Even if we limit the subject to the interface itself, it's a regression to a simpler UI with a much cruder look. What's modern about that?! Or is this another case of "what's old is new again"?

--JorgeA

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now, let me rephrase my poorly stated question about whether this sort of thing is available to the "average" PC user. Let's put it this way: when you write that --
there is no one TWM that really offers an encompassing example of 'Thee State Of The Art' as most are built to serve their Developer's pet wish interests that typically revolve around software development -- with almost nothing in the way of demos that will do much to impress the uninitiated

-- I gather that this sort of sophisticated TWM isn't available to the public on the 'Net for general-purpose computing, be it for sale or free, as a disk or download. Rather, the best TWMs are proprietary ones used in specific settings for limited purposes.

Well the coolest TWM features are spread out across a range of projects and applications, there's no single TWM that does it all, and most Linux TWM's are configured with script much like bug.n in the list above, so you have to have some initial sense of what you want your desktop to be able to do and set that up. Other cool TWM features can be found in applications like Adobe Audition (which I use from time to time) that let you organize audio and video data, as well as editing tools, effects, and mixing interfaces for editing in really useful ways that could just was well apply to a desktop environment, and one of the things I mistakenly believed Microsoft was pursuing with Metro's large longitudinal surface...

And that; the endless and seamless virtual desktop, that can be scrolled (both horizontally and vertically), snapped, zoomed and configured to do all the things discussed across multiple displays is yet another feature being explored with TWM's like xmonad on Linux running under the compiz compositor. Microsoft took the CWM bull by the horns and set what for many has been a very satisfactory standard by purloining as much as it could from Taligent, which gave us the interfaces we have today that began with Windows 95 and NT 3.1 -- I'd just rather hoped they'd done the same with some of the more exciting and scattered work being done with the TWM...

:blink:

Edited by hoak
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we move from the kitchen to the studio? :w00t:

Classical antiquity Art:

81_Reggio_Calabria_I_Bronzi_Di_Riace.jpg

Classical Art:

Annunciazione.jpg

Modern art:

lucio-fontana-concetto-spaziale-attese-1961.jpg

(with all due respect to Lucio Fontana, of course :yes: )

:whistle:

jaclaz

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we move from the kitchen to the studio? :w00t:

I'll bring the knives, and we can all get straight to work on Metro and make it really modern...

:w00t:

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To add more into the "what is Microsoft thinking" category...

As we all know, a little over a month and a half, the new Windows 8 is coming out... which also marks the official release of Internet Explorer 10.

So I am watching the football (hand-egg to you guys everywhere else in the world) last night, and see this (apparently old) IE 9 commercial:

So new OS coming out in 2 months? Lets run commercial with old OS.

So new browser coming out in 2 months? Lets run commercial with old browser.

Plus lets not forget that this commercial is using their OLD logo. :rolleyes:

You'd figure this commercial should have come out say, a month after IE9 was released... And where are the lead-up commercials for Windows 8 or IE10? Shouldn't there be some by now? Get them out ahead of time so that the consumers are waiting for it to come out?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ZLZJm.jpg

8UqLu.jpg

acayh.jpg

NOTE: I couldn't figure out a nice way to make the 3rd photo work, so I left it alone.

Well, if I were a 3-year-old (or had the worldview of a 3-year-old ;) ), there's no doubt that I would pick the phone with the garish yellow squares! :lol:

--JorgeA

rotflmao.gif Exactly!

Okay, so Nokia was delivered the Redmond sales pitch and bought it hook, line, and sinker. You would think they would be careful at this point ( the Metro name fiasco should be worrying ). Instead, they are showing signs of being almost as clueless ...

Nokia's new PureView ad is amazing, too bad it's faked ( The Verge 2012-09-05 )

Nokia apologizes for misleading Lumia PureView video ( NeoWin 2012-09-05 )

Nokia appears to have faked the Lumia 920 PureView stills, too ( NeoWin 2012-09-05 )

This was quite a feat, this discovery. It occurs to me that despite the existence of many pro-Microsoft media outlets and a fifth-column of fanboys, it really won't matter because there really *are* some journalists around That Verge article is interesting, especially if you watch the video and note how sharp eyed the person was that discovered the 'fake'. Anyway, I think it is a good thing what we're seeing now. It seems like a bit of a sea-change really. 'We're not just gonna take your word for it anymore." I hope and expect them to keep all their feet to the fire. Microsoft with the ginned up sales figures and other deceptions, the rotten Apple patent litigations, Google with censorship (China) and privacy, etc. No more free rides. We are watching you.

Ballmer is very optimistic ...

Ballmer predicts 400 million Windows 8/Phone 8 devices in a year ( NeoWin 2012-09-05 )

And talk about laughs ...

Symantec: Norton software makes Windows 8 run faster ( NeoWin 2012-09-05 )

Normally I might call some of these Headlines from an Alternate Universe, but then I look around. :lol:

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And talk about laughs ...

Symantec: Norton software makes Windows 8 run faster ( NeoWin 2012-09-05 )

Normally I might call some of these Headlines from an Alternate Universe, but then I look around. :lol:

A RARE image of the comparison test between Windows 7 (+Symantec Norton 360 and Norton Internet Security 2012) and Windows 8 (+Symantec Norton 360 and Norton Internet Security 2013) :yes: :

hare_turtle.jpg

I think I'll have a beer or two while I ponder on this ;) :

Tall-Tales-6pack%20copy.jpg

jaclaz

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To add more into the "what is Microsoft thinking" category...

As we all know, a little over a month and a half, the new Windows 8 is coming out... which also marks the official release of Internet Explorer 10.

So I am watching the football (hand-egg to you guys everywhere else in the world) last night, and see this (apparently old) IE 9 commercial:

Builds your confidence that MS knows what it's doing, eh?

You wouldn't be surprised to see TV commercials for a 2012 line of cars showing up a couple of months before the 2013 models came out. Clearing out inventory and such. But IE isn't sold, there's no inventory to clear out, so what the heck are they doing...? :unsure: This would be the time to be promoting general awareness of the NEW browser and OS. You would think...

--JorgeA

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would be the time to be promoting general awareness of the NEW browser and OS. You would think...

It is possible :unsure: that the good guys in advertisement (being more attentive to "looks" and "visual" aspect) realized that advertising something as ugly as Metro NCI is a tough job and some more time is needed to *somehow* produce a commercial that would actually highlight the good things in it (WHICH ones? :w00t: ) and help to increase sales ;).

jaclaz

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another Headline from an Alternate Universe ...

Microsoft Redefines ''PC'' to be ''Personalized Computing'' ( Tom's Hardware 2012-09-06 )

"The company's own Peter Jaeger, Senior Director DPE (Developer and Platform Evangelism) and a key executive of Microsoft Germany, told an audience at the IFA 2012 tradeshow that "PC" now stands for "personalized computing.""

The comments are a hoot. They just need a bit of touch-up to fit in the forum rules here :lol: Some examples ...

  • ... MS is sad now...
  • They couldn't have been more incoherent if they wanted to.
  • This is so retarded i don't know where to begin.
  • You can go cram that 8 up your {snip} Microsoft.
  • Screw you MS, the PC isn't yours to define.
  • So you're telling me that I work on a "personalized computing" now?
  • I think "IT" now stands for "idi0ts talking". :-)
  • ...

I totally agree with this sentiment since 'personalized computing' is exactly the opposite that they have in mind. The direction they seem to have chosen is a real gamble because almost by definition if you are a discerning computer user who wants control over everything on your system you will be choosing a Windows PC. In other words, they don't really have the stable of obedient sheep ( minus the fanboys ) that they think they have. While they sit up there in Redmond planning their grand strategy of a Microbranded walled garden of kiosks they have really failed to understand most of the user base. Backlashes can really hurt you, just ask several of the game companies and many businesses outside the strictly computer universe.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.