JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

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Are you guys going to post EVERY negative article that comes out about Windows 8?

I'm sorry but this topic is nothing but a diarrhea of articles, I'd even go as far as saying this is bordering on spam

OK we get it, you don't like Windows 8

Well, with all due respect :), it's not like someone is holding you at a gun point to force you reading this thread :no: .

I actually see very few negative comments on Windows 8 (the actual OS), a lot of them about the NCI , as well many on the doubts about usability/convenience on large screens (touch or not), and much more on the "philosophy" behind it (the Nameless Crap Interface) AND (particularly by me) some additional negative comments to the lie behind the statements of the kind "You talked, we listened".

If the good MS guys behind the way Windows 8 GUI and "tiles" (and a few other aspects) have been implemented had simply said: "It's our OS, it's our money we will be making or losing, we don't §@ç#ing care about your ideas, experiences and work" it would be to me (almost) perfectly allright, they would be (as they are anyway) both arrogant and unpolite, but they wouldn't be telling "us" that "we" told them what to do and they did it. :whistle:

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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ricktendo64 (and @LakotaRising),

I started this thread back in January, for the purpose of offering "deeper impressions" on Windows 8 (beyond the "first impressions" given in a previous thread), and you're welcome to contribute your own.

That said, as the mods will attest, the thread has developed over time. There is no shortage of places to go for anyone who wishes to read articles cheerleading for Windows 8. It's easy to get one's fill of that. This thread has evolved largely into a place where people who (for whatever reasons) are not enamored of Win8, can come to collect and obtain information to balance out what we see as the marketing hype and boosterism available elsewhere.

--JorgeA

Who said I was cheerleading?

I don't like that they removed Media Center (and are now charging for it,) I also hate that they removed aero (but after reading this article convinced me otherwise) but you don't see me whining (at least not as much as you guys) about it

You should think about changing the name of this topic from "Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions" to "Windows 8 - Negative stuff I found on the net"

Edit: @jaclaz same thing can be said to you all. Nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to use Windows 8, stick with whatever OS you are using now

Edited by ricktendo64
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I don't like that they removed Media Center (and are now charging for it,) I also hate that they removed aero (but after reading this article convinced me otherwise) but you don't see me whining (at least not as much as you guys) about it

Everyone is entitled to their opinions about it. Some have come in to this thread and defend Windows 8, but what we don't have happening is OS battles. There is no arguments about someone liking or not liking it, and we'd like to keep it that way. Besides, you can just come along to read the links, it is a good way of keeping up to date on what people are saying. Anyways, its a popular topic.

If anything tho, I'd rather the people of Neowin not be referred to as "fanboy site" or whatever. We don't need to be talking like that here.

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ricktendo64 (and @LakotaRising),

I started this thread back in January, for the purpose of offering "deeper impressions" on Windows 8 (beyond the "first impressions" given in a previous thread), and you're welcome to contribute your own.

That said, as the mods will attest, the thread has developed over time. There is no shortage of places to go for anyone who wishes to read articles cheerleading for Windows 8. It's easy to get one's fill of that. This thread has evolved largely into a place where people who (for whatever reasons) are not enamored of Win8, can come to collect and obtain information to balance out what we see as the marketing hype and boosterism available elsewhere.

--JorgeA

Who said I was cheerleading?

No one.

What I did say (I left the quote above, unchanged) is that anyone who wants to read articles cheerleading for Windows 8, has plenty of places to do it. And I would add, not just individual articles, but large chunks of websites, sometimes almost entire ones.

I'm glad to know that, like me, you were concerned about the removal of Windows Media Center and Aero elements. Personally, I do find the fancier graphics much more appealing and wish that Microsoft would let users choose the level of "eye candy" that we prefer on our screens (as they did with Vista and 7, for example) instead of channeling everyone to the same (lowest) common denominator.

There is no doubt that we aren't forced to buy or use Windows 8. But as the economist Albert Hirschman wrote, markets offer two non-mutually exclusive ways for customers to react to a situation where the quality of a company's products or services is perceived to have declined: "voice" and "exit." That is, we can speak up ("voice") in the hope that the company will mend its ways and offer something closer to our preferences; and/or we can "exit" by ceasing to buy from the company. In this thread, we are speaking up -- using our "voice." If that fails, then some of us have already indicated that eventually we'll "exit" for Linux or the Mac.

Sure, we can still use Windows 7, but Microsoft won't be supporting that OS forever. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, the concern is that MS will ultimately kill off the Desktop, rendering useless our preferred way to interact with our computers. Hence our voluble use of the "voice" strategy here. :)

BTW, since @Tripredacus just mentioned Neowin -- in my view the coverage by staff writers at Neowin hasn't been entirely unbalanced, but I stopped reading the comments section after seeing people expressing an unfavorable view of Windows 8 denounced as a "TROLL!" or told to "STOP WHINING!" for the thousandth time. Not an effective way to argue, IMHO.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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Edit: @jaclaz same thing can be said to you all. Nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to use Windows 8, stick with whatever OS you are using now

Sure :thumbup , and as a matter of fact, being largely a NT4 and 2K user, and having upgraded to XP only in 2008 or 2009, it would be very unlikely that it will happen any soon.

You evidently missed the game:

From the little tests I made -as said - the OS itself is not at all "bad", but this is completely irrelevant, we are here (besides other reasons) to exchange ideas, knowledge and opinions, ever wondered why places like this are called "discussion boards"?

So, I feel free to post - within the limits of the Board Rules, any info, idea, knowledge and opinion I have and like to share, and - usually - I have some fun :yes: when doing this.

jaclaz

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Well, I can't go into details but Microsoft already has these rules for OEMs. The problem is that no software maker is following them. And there is a rule about not installing anything that adds a Start Menu back, replaces the Start Screen or including any program that can access the Store, display Metro style apps, etc. This partly relates to my previous post about ODMs not fully embracing the new "rules" regarding Windows 8.

So to put it bluntly, Toshiba CANNOT ship a system as an OEM that includes a Start Menu replacer.

If this product is allowed to be released, what you will be seeing is a full-on revolt by OEMs and ODMs against Microsoft. :o

I wish you would ( go into details ). It sounds like Redmond and their Licensing agreements are pushing right up against private property issues. This is the same as saying they can't change the wallpaper. Of course Microsoft couldn't care less if OEM's install reams of crapware for support, toolbars, docks, backup, assistants, cloud, antivirus trials and games. I guess that is good crapware. Functional Start-Menu's are bad crapware. The OEM's should not only revolt, but shut down their support lines and forward all the Windows 8 Metro questions right to Microsoft.

Everything in that bold section is a direct challenge to who owns the frickin' computer in the first place, and it is not Microsoft even though they think they do. This OEM backroom licensing thing needs to be challenged, adjudicated, and destroyed. It is how they established the giant monopoly in the first place, the same monopoly they are now clearly trying to squeeze and exploit. And as for the anti-class action lawsuit changes, well I can't wait for the European courts to pick the new EULA apart. It will set some nice precedents for our courts over here. Like I said many times, Microsoft is really sticking their neck out, really far. They are only recently out from underneath the last DOJ action and judgment, and are operating in the clear for the first time in a long while and they seem hell-bent on corporate suicide. Apple-envy is mental illness.

If anything tho, I'd rather the people of Neowin not be referred to as "fanboy site" or whatever. We don't need to be talking like that here.

Well if that's the official word here I'll abide by it and stop. I got nothing against NeoWin or Steven and I think they have done pretty good work all things considered. My recent disgust with the (F-word) children over-running the place is the fact that they have far out-done the Apple sycophants of the 1980's, by far. It is embarrassing, and hypocritical because they are making the iSheep look like mature adults. Is "MicroZombies" okay you think?

Are you guys going to post EVERY negative article that comes out about Windows 8?

I'm sorry but this topic is nothing but a diarrhea of articles, I'd even go as far as saying this is bordering on spam

OK we get it, you don't like Windows 8

Usually when I post the two or three "negative" articles I mention the very fact that it is the two or three out of one or two DOZEN fluff pieces. That ratio isn't overwhelming enough already? We should leave these stories buried in the Windows 8 avalanche I guess.

P.S. I got first dibs on that bolded word upthread! See below ...

Microsoft Windows 8 : Fast and Fluid Experience! (like Diarrhea) © ™ ®

:lol:

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P.S. I got first dibs on that bolded word upthread! See below ...

Microsoft Windows 8 : Fast and Fluid Experience! (like Diarrhea) © ™ ®

:lol:

:D

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Paul Thurrott, our favorite Windows 8 fan, leans over the cliff in the following excerpt from Windows Weekly. Then, in the next excerpt, he steps back somewhat with a lucid observation of the dangers involved in Metrofying everything.

I:

During a discussion of Samsung's (possible) addition of a desktop application launcher that would include a revived Start Button for Windows 8, Paul, Mary Jo Foley, and host Leo Laporte had the following exchange --

MJF: When everybody was saying, "why are they letting them do this?" and "why can they do this, they're wrecking the beautiful experience of the Start Screen and all?" But you know what they have to think about? I say, there are a bunch of people who are not going to try Windows 8, because when they see that UI, they're going to be like, "Whoa! I don't even recognize this, like what the heck?"

There are people who love the new UI, and they're excited to try new things -- and there are people who don't. So if you're a Windows fan, wouldn't you rather have people buy Windows 8 even if the only way they'll buy it is to have this? Like it'll get them in the door, at least...

PT: This is -- I say, leave those people for dead, Mary Jo! [laughter] No, I, ah -- I vote that they wake up and the caravan is just gone. [laughter] I hear what you're saying, but I mean, I think that a lot of the knee-jerk reaction to the Start Menu or Start Button being gone, is resolved simply by realizing that it's OK -- you know, that it's not horrible using it the way it is.

MJF: But I like giving people a choice, and if Samsung puts this on there and people don't want it, they can kill it off of there, right?

LL: Yeah, you don't have to use it.

II:

Later on in the show, Paul (unlike the public pronouncements by Steve and Steve) showed an awareness of the possibility that this whole Metrofication thing could turn into a disaster --

PT: You know, we're going to be in for an interesting little period of time here, where -- what happens when Office 2015 or 16, or whatever it's called, is recast as a series of Metro-style apps that don't do everything that the current suite does, right? What if they scale back -- you know, we all know what the outcry has been so far over the perceived limitations of multitasking in Windows 8 and how Metro apps are slightly retarded compared to regular applications: what hapens when they do that to Office? Or, we could look at the people who've complained about Server Manager in Windows Server 2012? The most powerful version of Windows Server yet, and they've got this kind of bizarre, inscrutable, Metro-inspired UI that they expect admins to live in all day long? Most people have looked at that and been like, "uuhhh -- seriously??" I mean, they're just horrified by it. There's the potential for backllash here if they're not careful as they make this transition.

--JorgeA

EDIT: typo!

Edited by JorgeA
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Yep, Thurrott is a piece of work. No bigger shill can be found at any price anywhere at any time.

Is “Microsoft design style” the final name for Metro? ( NeoWin 2012-10-21 )

Another day, another possible name for Metro. Honestly, I just can't believe anyone started calling it "Modern UI" with a straight face. :lol: I guess it never occurred to them to just use Metropolitan. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what they want to call it, the problem is more than a name. That problem is that this gigantic move was underway for at least three years and they never bothered to secure rights for "Metro" at any point along the way. Either that or the legal eagles were saying all along: "Don't worry, the name is safe". In either case there is the clear indication of upper management level incompetence. But that is hardly news at all.

Best Buy prices Lumia 920 at $149 and HTC 8X at $99, accepting pre-orders now ( NeoWin 2012-10-21 )

Those are subsidized 2-year contract prices and they are confirmed by a screenshot at Best Buy. The fine print says $599 for non-activated, but that may just be a comparison style sales pitch because they have no screenshot of the phone at that price that can be added to the cart. Those Nokia phones are all missing now at Best Buy anyway, only the HTC remains and again the only option is with the contract, no purchase offers without. Hence, I would not count on that $599 being the firm retail price. The carrier of course, exclusively, is AT&T and they get you for 2-years. How wonderful!

Canonical to Windows XP cliff-clingers: Ubuntu safety net's ready... now jump ( UK Register 2012-10-18 )

What's happening is that they are lobbying the UK Government and others to replace sunsetting Windows XP workstations with Ubuntu. It's a smart move for Canonical but they report no numbers for a means of comparison. There is one angle that the article doesn't touch upon, and that is the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" aspect of this for Canonical. You see, it could get real interesting if some of the clients bit and decided to switch over and then Microsoft swoops in and makes them an offer they can't refuse. Then the poop would hit the fan on the anti-trust anti-competitive front. However, if they do lose any Windows clients to Linux, no matter how few, it will be magnified a hundred-fold in the Tech press and on Wall Street and might be the snowflake that starts the snowball rolling down the hill. Ironically, once you have 90%+ domination of a market, there is only one place to go, eventually.

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That's really hilarious! Priceless, even.

Ubuntu safety net's ready... now jump

Ready in what way? Because it seems anything BUT ready to me!

What's happening is that they are lobbying the UK Government and others to replace sunsetting Windows XP workstations with Ubuntu. It's a smart move for Canonical but they report no numbers for a means of comparison.

Except that the numbers just don't look that good once you factor in all the costs. And that's assuming it can even do the job in the first place which is quite unlikely. I mean, no good Exchange Client (hope you didn't need email), no ActiveX-compatible browser (that's not an uncommon requirement in big businesses or gov't), not being able to run any of the existing software (just find suitable replacements for 100% of the software used by every single of the 100000+ employees), supporting all of the incredibly diverse hardware you find in an organization of that size, etc.

You see, it could get real interesting if some of the clients bit and decided to switch over and then Microsoft swoops in and makes them an offer they can't refuse. Then the poop would hit the fan on the anti-trust anti-competitive front.

I don't see how it would be a problem. If they threaten to switch, they will get better prices. It seems like a well known strategy, and I don't see how a supplier offering a better deal would be a problem. The only "problem" here is for MS, who would get less money per license.

The rest of the article is pretty much one big joke...

Here's another big date, only slightly more ominous: 8 April, 2014.

...which is exactly when the current version of Ubuntu (the one they're talking about) loses support, so not a single day is gained. Unless you stick to the LTS, where you just push your problem back by a couple years instead (vs Win7 SP1 which gets support until January 2020 at least and might be extended like XP's date was)

This October has also seen the launch of another operating system, one which hopes to capitalise on the end of Windows XP and the uncertainty of Windows 8.

Yes, as if Ubuntu (Linux with Unity and now HUD too) which people are abandoning for Mint and Arch is any less uncertain! If anything it's even more confusing (and again, no binary compatibility, etc)

They're pushing for a drastic change which is almost certain to turn into complete and massive failure which very well might even cost more, when a very good (and really not THAT expensive) solution already exists in the form of Win7, which most of the market is moving to already, and with great success. The interface is still pretty familiar, it still runs all the software you need and so on.

Sometimes I wonder if any of these people ever worked in a business environment. Because they clearly seem not to understand the millions of ways people are just locked in to MS products, and their one and only argument seems to be that Linux makes you save the Windows license, while disregarding absolutely *everything* else (like not being able to do the job in the first place). They don't seem to get just how massive such a migration would be, the amount of planning required and the time it takes (it's already too late to even think of a staged migration). It only makes them seem amateurish IMO, and that's just one more reason not to trust them.

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CoffeeFiend,

It's too early for this sort of mass migration, considering that Windows 7 extended support will run till -- what, 2020?

However, if Microsoft insists on foisting its Metro insanity on its customers -- and especially if, as some predict, they ultimately eliminate the Desktop altogether -- then as that date nears there will be an opportunity for alternative OS's to make a pitch to those who won't put up with it. You've already expressed the idea of changing over to the Mac, while I'm looking into a Linux flavor.

Switching to the hybrid Windows 8 with the Metro Start Screen and no Start Button/Menu already entails a big change for a user, but a Windows RT-type system lacking a Desktop would be a much bigger one, about as big an adjustment as switching to Linux or the Mac, don't you think? None of our current programs would work there, either. That's where the opening lies for alternative OS's. Linux developers have eight years or so to devise sophisticated enterprise applications of the sort that you describe, and having a specific timetable ("2020 or Bust!") might be useful in making that happen.

That's how I'm seeing it, anyway.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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considering that Windows 7 extended support will run till -- what, 2020?

Yes, assuming they don't extend it. It's really not a big deal right now.

You've already expressed the idea of changing over to the Mac

I already have one, but it's still not as nice as Win7 in my opinion, and limited for what I do.

Switching to the hybrid Windows 8 with the Metro Start Screen and no Start Button/Menu already entails a big change for a user, but a Windows RT-type system lacking a Desktop would be a much bigger one, about as big an adjustment as switching to Linux or the Mac, don't you think?

Yes. But I don't think MS could successfully pull that anytime soon (getting rid of the desktop and Win32 compatibility altogether). Replacing the start menu with a crappy smartphone interface is one thing (it makes using it a pain) but dropping compatibility with virtually 100% of the software your OS runs is quite another.

None of our current programs would work there, either.

Well, not completely. Macs still run MS Office, everything Adobe (Photoshop and others) and many others. It's not quite Windows but it's a LOT better than Linux as for commercial software.

Linux developers have eight years or so to devise sophisticated enterprise applications of the sort that you describe, and having a specific timetable ("2020 or Bust!") might be useful in making that happen.

8 years to come up with a drop-in replacement for active directory, group policies, a complete replacement for exchange + outlook, full compatibility with MS Office formats and proper replacements for the entire suite (including Visio, OneNote and Project, not just Word and Excel!), all the big commercial software like Photoshop or AutoCAD, offering developer tools on par with Visual Studio and SQL Server, etc. That would also require changing ActiveX-based web apps (which are often extremely expensive enterprise apps like our ERP System) which require a LOT of time, energy, planning and money to replace, and also rewriting most if not all of "in-house" line-of-business apps which can require more man-hours and cost more than anyone might imagine (assuming you already have a small army of programmers around doing nothing) and *so many* more things!

At that point, people just start offering suggestions like running everything you need under WINE (yeah, like a business will rely on that!), or basically moving everything to terminal servers (massive servers that cost LOTS of $, with *massive* software licensing fees, which aren't all that good at running many types of apps), running everything under vmware and other similar "solutions"... And even if you somehow managed to do all that, then you'd still have TONS of specialized stuff that needs proprietary software that only runs on Windows (from medical imagery machines, CNC machines, industrial automation equipment, various photography gear, programming/embedded/lab equipment and what not). Or if you want a simple and common example of that, we got a couple "specialized" label printers (the latest being a Brady). No Linux drivers exist for the thing, much less the software (which is very crappy, expensive and requires a hardware dongle) to design & print the labels. And even if that already existed somehow, then we'd have thousands of labels to redesign or recreate still... Cases like these are extremely common in businesses.

As an IT manager, would you rather pay about $150 per PC for a Win7 Pro license (you're done, the problem's solved until 2020 or more!), or deal with all of the above, including the user training (you'd not only replace the OS but also all of the software), the user complaints, the loss of productivity, the incredible amount of planning required, the high risks associated with it and everything else? It's quite an easy choice to make. Then in 5 years from now, you'll see what Win8's successor looks like and start planning your next migration. Until then you have a solid OS that does the job great, and you can't really plan for 2020, trying to predict how things might change over almost a decade...

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Oww, come on.:)

Is this a new dimension to "generalizing"?

On other news:

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/03/29/0025239/munich-has-saved-4m-so-far-after-switch-to-linux

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.golem.de%2Fnews%2Fob-christian-ude-muenchen-spart-mit-limux-geld-und-hat-weniger-stoerungen-1203-90821.html

Original German:

http://www.golem.de/news/ob-christian-ude-muenchen-spart-mit-limux-geld-und-hat-weniger-stoerungen-1203-90821.html

It is possible? Yes.

Has it be done? Yes.

Are there some issues? Of course (and of course you won't be told which they actually were, as who took the decision have all the interest in minimizing reports of issues and maximizing the news about savings, i.e. to report the success of the switch).

But, again, there is not written anywhere that you will have only one Operating System (or only one operating system provider) there are no reasons why mixed approaches won't work, in the case of Munich the transition took 8 years (and possibly will never reach 100%):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_adopters

But since a few years "office" work is done on OpenOffice and e-mails are sent and received through Thunderbird, so the theory of MS office or Exchange being somehow "needed" is disproved fully.

These old news (2005):

http://www.zdnet.com/munich-picks-its-linux-distro-3039195204/

will most probably be appreciated by CharlotteTheHarlot ;):

Munich's migration has attracted a lot of interest from the start, with Microsoft chief executive Steve Ballmer reportedly interrupting a ski holiday in Switzerland to pay a personal visit to Munich's mayor to dissuade him from migrating.

jaclaz

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Sometimes I wonder if any of these people ever worked in a business environment. Because they clearly seem not to understand the millions of ways people are just locked in to MS products, and their one and only argument seems to be that Linux makes you save the Windows license, while disregarding absolutely *everything* else (like not being able to do the job in the first place). They don't seem to get just how massive such a migration would be, the amount of planning required and the time it takes (it's already too late to even think of a staged migration). It only makes them seem amateurish IMO, and that's just one more reason not to trust them.

Its not just that, but its a confusing subject and reason I can only point to is old business practices that do not keep up with the times. I worked with a company to do a migration from Windows NT 4 to Windows XP. The project lasted over 1 year and that actual "migration" period took about 6 months. There was a ton of testing with all their applications, particularly the database apps and the legacy terminal systems that were still in use. The worst part was that the company had put off the migration (and even the testing) until about 1 year from Windows NT support expiring. It was such a pain and no pro-active testing or development was done when XP came out and everything had to wait for some reason. After the entire painful process was completed, everything was better and back to business.

Well guess what, XP is running out of time and that same company is dragging their feet on going up to Windows 7. They are making the same mistakes they made nearly 10 years prior. Why does this happen? I think the same reasons you point out in your Linux argument.

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