JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

6,162 posts in this topic

Following the previous story about HP and downgrade upgrade rights to Windows 7, the story has grown a bit. It appears that HP is not only stating they will discontinue making drivers for Windows 7, but they have now completely affirmed what I has only wondered about in passing two posts back: "God forbid if OEMs completely switch over. The long-running trend of more power and performance at a lower cost year after year will have ended thanks to Microsoft and their toy operating system.". Yes, they have taken the plunge headfirst into the Windows 8 whirlpool.

HP urges consumer customers not to downgrade new PCs to Windows 7 ( Gregg Keizer ComputerWorld 2012-11-08 )

HP warns consumers: Downgrade from Windows 8 to Windows 7 at your own risk, we won't support you ( Preston Gralla ComputerWorld 2012-11-08 )

HP Warns Customers Not To Downgrade Win 8 PCs to Win 7 ( Tom's Hardware 2012-11-09 )

"HP does not recommend downgrading on any HP consumer desktop and notebook products. After October 26, 2012, HP consumer desktop and notebook products will ship only with Windows 8. Windows 7 will not be supported on these new platforms, and no drivers, apps, or Windows 7 content will be available through HP. If users choose to downgrade their HP consumer desktop or notebook system, HP will continue to support the hardware but if there is an issue where HP diagnostics are required OR it is determined that the loaded software or upgrade operating system is causing the issue, HP may suggest returning the system to the original Windows 8 OS that shipped with the computer."

So the issue here, as I suspected, clearly transcends mere "downgrade rights". Either Microsoft got their hooks into them or we are seeing another classic corporate blunder - going all in on a new product, one that has the highest degree of controversy associated with it possible. That is not the mark of a careful corporate decision. Also note the word: "HP consumer desktop and notebook products will ship only with Windows 8". This is key. They know full well that the corporate world that buys thousands of PCs will not be unanimously choosing Windows 8, and many will avoid it altogether.

So what does this tell us about HP ( and/or Microsoft ) and their feelings for consumers by mandating Windows 8 for them but leaving the door open for Windows 7 on volume purchases? I really want to hear the rationalizations from the sycophants now. It couldn't be clearer to me that both HP and Microsoft have utter contempt for the non-corporate consumer. And I believe we should reciprocate in kind by showing them utter contempt ( okay, I already do :lol: ). Boycott HP. I cannot wait to watch them collapse.

Someone at HP is clearly deserving of a Darwin Ballmer Award.

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No DirectX 11.1 for Windows 7 planned? ( NeoWin 2012-11-09 )

Microsoft has "no plan" to release DirectX 11.1 for Windows 7 ( TechSpot 2012-11-12 )

In a recent post on the Microsoft Answers forum, Microsoft employee Daniel Moth stated, "DirectX 11.1 is part of Windows 8, just like DirectX 11 was part of Windows 7. DirectX 11 was made available for Vista .... but at this point there is no plan for DirectX 11.1 to be made available on Windows 7."

We contacted Microsoft to get an official response but a spokesperson told us, " ... we have nothing further to share."

Hmmmm, discontinuing Service Packs, freezing Direct-X, at some point the accumulated weight of these "sky isn't falling" decisions will wakeup the sleepy people to realize the paradigm shift is not confined only to the Windows 8 GUI. I think it is safe to say that Microsoft has as much contempt for Windows 7 now that they previously had for Vista and XP. IMHO, this contempt for their loyal customers began with the nastiness found in the Vista development blog when that release began receiving horrible reviews and comments. Microsoft then hunkered down, adopted an "us versus them" attitude, launched the phony Mojave Experiment, setting the stage for their Apple-esque style arrogance best described as "the customer is always wrong". This is not a healthy situation. What is interesting and has been often noted right in this thread is that they are attacking in different ways all three legs of their own success: OEM manufacturers, software developers, and the customers. There is a word for this: suicide.

Microsoft restricts DirectX 11.1 to Windows 8 ( PC Gamer 2012-11-12 )

It's like Microsoft is daring me to go Linux.

:lol::yes::lol:

For Now, DirectX 11.1 Will Only Be for Windows 8 ( Tom's Hardware 2012-11-15 )

Microsoft gives in; adds some DirectX 11.1 features to Windows 7 ( NeoWin 2012-11-5 )

Some DirectX 11.1 Features Confirmed for Windows 7 ( Tom's Hardware 2012-11-15 )

Backtracking already?

Surface users report Touch Cover splits and audio issues ( The Verge 2012-11-09 )

Surface early adopters reporting issues with audio, Touch Cover ( TechSpot 2012-11-09 )

Some splitting Surface Touch Covers reported [update] ( NeoWin 2012-11-09 )

Microsoft Surface Touch keyboards self-destruct – and more ( UK Register 2012-11-09 )

( I realize this has already been mentioned in another thread here but I figured it should be mentioned here since this thread has kind of a time-capsule feel to it ). Well that didn't take long now did it? Less than two weeks after launch and the tide may already be turning. It appears there are at least two problems now with the Surface, the separation of the Touch Cover and an audio problem also. The thing about the Touch Cover ( the one that they forgot to add the function key labels to :lol: ) is not surprising to me since we recently learned of the Apple-esque high profit margin: "... IHS also estimates that it costs Microsoft no more than $18 to manufacture the touch cover, an accessory that tacks on $100 to the price of the 32GB Surface RT tablet.". Did anyone really think that these problems would not ( pardon the pun ) surface? I mean we all saw the commercials with smiling yuppies tossing, clicking, flipping and whipping the device around held by the cover itself? Similarly, does anyone still doubt that the commercials showing lots of swiping on desktop computer screens without an associated disclaimer ( "swiping requires a touch screen" ) will also lead to customer complaints? Count on it. At least for their part Microsoft is reportedly handling this problem very well, allowing simple swaps for new replacements. Of course that is plain common sense at this point because doing anything less will lead to destruction of what remains of their reputation. It must be said that this could have been avoided if they had not pursued a political strategy all along, by keeping the Surface completely out of the hands of reviewers until two weeks ago, just like a candidate ducking debates and public appearances because of fear they will make a faux paux. Had there been units in reviewers and developers hands for a couple of months these quality issues would certainly have come to light. Now we must wonder what surprises will the Surface Pro bring since they are using precisely the same strategy there once again.

Man charged with selling lots of counterfeit Microsoft software ( NeoWin 2012-11-09 )

Computerworld.com reports that Bruce Alan Edward, 48, of Atlanta, Michigan, was arraigned on Thursday in federal court. He has been charged with selling counterfeit copies of both Windows XP Professional and Office 2003 Professional via eBay.

The report claims that Edward sold a total of 2,500 copies of the software products between May 2008 and September 2010. Normally, the total amount that Microsoft would have taken in from the legitimate sales of the software would have been over $1.2 million. Edward received $140,000 for selling the unauthorized Microsoft software.

Please don't mis-interpret, I do not support piracy, but the bolded quotes there certainly beg the question: how could they really say with a straight face that "Microsoft would have taken in from the legitimate sales of the software would have been over $1.2 million" when they themselves killed the products in almost all channels ( there might be some obscure method to still purchase them ). Wouldn't it just be terrific if the judge were to press Microsoft on this and challenge them. This kind of thing needs to be tested IMHO. No, not the fact that the perp was collecting money for something he did not write, that is not in question to anyone, but the crazy claims of lost revenue from not just Microsoft, but most of Hollywood and the RIAA mafia as well. You would think that this issue would handle itself anyway since both of these products are activation-based. Theoretically the perp was just selling duplicates of install media that should have been made available for ISO download by Microsoft for the sake of convenience all along. None of this is explained by the news stories. I would expect that there are 2,500 angry customers out there wondering why the copies they bought cannot be activated.

EDIT: oops, corrected link to wrong story. Also typo, Added Links

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot
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The Next Twenty Years: Why the closed distribution model of Windows 8 must be changed for the sake of developers, consumers, and Microsoft itself. ( Casey Muratori 2012-10-08 )

Review: Windows 8 tries to unite two worlds and ends up botching them both ( Digital Trends 2012-10-25 )

Analyzing the Windows 8 Metro/Desktop interface train wreck ( ExtremeTech 2012-10-31 )

Three Windows 8 commentaries and reviews that I forgot to mention earlier. These are just three of many that are out there but are still swamped by the tsunami of fluff pieces. The first one has a point of view from a developer and in Appendix B he picks apart and analyzes the new situation regarding Apps designed for Metro.

Windows 8-based RetroUI gets update to RetroUI Pro (NeoWin 2012-11-10 )

Another Start Menu replacer with a twist. This one also has the ability to add the taskbar to Metro. Jorge, you may want to add this to the collection if you haven't already.

screen_enforce.jpg

As usual though, the interesting thing to me is found in the reactions. Fence-sitters please take note. The leadoff comment is IMHO representative of most complaints about Windows 8 and Metro ...

This stuff should have been in Windows 8 from the start if you ask me. Give people the option to go back to a persistent taskbar and make Metro apps able to run windowed if you'd want to and everyone would be happy.

And that of course is immediately followed by MicroZombie arrogance which nicely encapsulates their attitude and contempt towards us ...

If you give people the option to go back, they will never switch. See the classic start menu that survived all the way until Windows 7.

Yep, take away freedom of choice. Force them to switch. Not to be out-done, another Zombie with a real penchant for Micro-Kookiness shows how their thought-process works ...

This stuff should have been in Windows 8 from the start if you ask me.

I wouldn't be happy if Windows 8 was like that, and I reckon that some other people wouldn't be, too. Microsoft have displeased you and others by doing what they've done, but they would displease me and probably others by implementing it this way. I'm not sure of any way they could have implemented it to make everyone happy.

If Windows was still like Windows 7 (i.e. allowing windows to overlap and being able to have many windows on screen at once, I probably wouldn't still be using Windows. I was ready to switch to a Mac, until I heard about the new Windows 8 experience.

That is marvelous cognitive dissonance really, especially that last sentence saying that if they had been given choice ( overlapping Windows, et al, ) they would turn to Macintosh! :lol: I'm starting to think that the Windows 8 and Metro issue is moving from being a Rorschach test to an IQ test instead.

It seems clear to me that on one-hand we have the long-time professionals that have used everything since the beginning from DOS, to text-mode launchers, to graphics-mode menu systems, to official Windows 3.x and of course finally the Win95 era, including those users that got onboard this paradigm at various points along the way. On the other hand we have the non-discerning mega-consumers who are Facebook and Angry Birds junkies spouting selfish anti-choice dictatorial opinions whom would all be right at home using Apple Mac systems and who are only interested in flashy, trendy, consumption based gadgets that became popular around the iPod era when people first started segregating themselves into these two camps - quality vs. consumption. This was pretty well illustrated by the "it's good-enough" attitude displayed by ignorant acceptance of MP3 and similar inferior audio formats ( though admittedly could be acceptable if created carefully ). To sum up, these people will bend over and accept anything and are a very desirable demographic to crap companies selling crap.

The question is this ... How can two such diametrically opposite camps be satisfied by one product? Well they can't obviously!. Leaving aside the forced solution of ant-choice arrogance that these dictators would love to see, the only good solution was for choice all along. Microsoft should have developed a product for them and then watched to see if it could stand on its own feet. Of course we all know what the outcome would have been, we have discussed it in this very thread on multiple occasions. It would have failed. So we have the dictatorial solution in progress. Slow cooking frogs wake up! This thing must fail for the good of everyone.

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Windows 8-based RetroUI gets update to RetroUI Pro (NeoWin 2012-11-10 )

Another Start Menu replacer with a twist. This one also has the ability to add the taskbar to Metro. Jorge, you may want to add this to the collection if you haven't already.

Done, thank you! :) Looks like a pretty strong, versatile candidate.

If you give people the option to go back, they will never switch. See the classic start menu that survived all the way until Windows 7.

OMG, what a horrible fate it was that the Start Menu managed to make it all the way to Win7!! :rolleyes:

What's the deal with these eStalins who can't bear the thought of us doing things OUR way -- don't they understand the concept of choice?

--JorgeA

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The puff pieces at Neowin continue:

Windows 8 defeated 85% of malware out of the box

The spin doctors hard at work. The piece misleads the casual reader into thinking that Windows 8 is somehow inherently more secure than Windows 7, when in fact what's happening is that Win8 comes with a full-featured antivirus program, whereas Win7 ships with only an anti-malware application. Tack full-featured AV to Win7, as MS could well do if it chose to, and you're good to go.

In any case, as a Win8 purchaser you'd better think seriously about buying a real AV solution anyway -- MSE's 85% detection rate is pretty crummy these days; most reputable security suites will catch upwards of 95% of threats. So in that sense the inexpert user could be lulled into a false sense of safety, and come to regret it before long.

--JorgeA

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And now for a post PRAISING Neowin for a good critique of Windows 8 usability:

Editorial: Things that suck about Windows 8 on a desktop

The writer begins (and ends) by establishing his bona fides as a Win8 fan, but the meat of the article consists of a detailed list of annoyances and frustrations with various functions and settings in the new OS, including (among other things) the app switcher, the search function, the Charms bar, and the tutorial. Well worth reading, especially for those who are on the fence thinking about buying Windows 8.

Then there's some things it simply doesn't find at all. Search for "task scheduler" and nothing comes up, but if you search for "schedule tasks" and then click on Settings it finds the appropriate function which then opens the Task Scheduler. What?! This is in no way user friendly, and makes it harder to access and find things you're actually looking for!
The final thing that sucks about Windows 8 on desktop PCs is that the OS doesn't seem to recognize that the PC doesn't have a touchscreen as part of the setup. There are references to touchscreens littered throughout the OS, including saying to "tap" rather than "click", and "swipe" rather than "drag". There's even a reference in PC Settings to a function desktop PCs don't have, which is swiping from the left to switch to a recent app.

post-287775-0-10668800-1352645893_thumb.

(the caption reads: "Go ahead and try to do that...")

I can think of two possible explanations for this head-scratcher, neither of which is very encouraging: it reveals either (1) incompetence, or (2) an intention/projection that real PCs will go away entirely and eventually the computing public will be left with nothing but toy devices.

The OS is so bad that the writer felt compelled to add this at the end...

Clarification: It was not my intention to blindly bash Windows 8 on desktop PCs

...but of course, for serious PC users it's very difficult not to bash Windows 8 for its annoyances and limitations.

--JorgeA

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I need to spend a few words in defense of the good MS guys :w00t:

If anyone reads this thread he/she may get the idea that suddenly the good MS guys became complete morons.

This is not the case, to tell the truth they have always been like that :ph34r: and over the years have introduced, in each and every OS, some senseless feature or stupid quirk (as well as omitting needed information, over-inform on trifling aspects noone cares about, misinform on many topics, fail to fix evident and often admitted issues).

The difference is that over the years we got used to the quirks, senseless choices and what not because each one - senseless as it might be - was an evolution of a previous senseless feature or of a known stupid quirk, what changed this time is that they introduced a whole bunch of completely new senseless features and many new stupid quirks and we are fed up :realmad: with having to adapt to their (distorted) view of computing and find new workarounds additional to the hundreds or thousands we were forced to invent, discover or get used to over the years.

So, most probably it's not like they changed, it is us: we are evolving.... :yes:

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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If anyone reads this thread he/she may get the idea that suddenly the good MS guys became complete morons.

This is not the case, to tell the truth they have always been like that :ph34r: and over the years have introduced, in each and every OS, some senseless feature or stupid quirk (as well as omitting needed information, over-inform on trifling aspects noone cares about, misinform on many topics, fail to fix evident and often admitted issues).

The difference is that over the years we got used to the quirks, senseless choices and what not because each one - senseless as it might be - was an evolution of a previous senseless feature or of a known stupid quirk, what changed this time is that they introduced a whole bunch of completely new senseless features and many new stupid quirks and we are fed up :realmad: with having to adapt to their (distorted) view of computing and find new workarounds additional to the hundreds or thousands we were forced to invent, discover or get used to over the years.

:thumbup Truer words were never spoken. :thumbup

You've said it all.

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no, we are not evolving (depends per person)

masses are more to bend over and take it up the a**

I for one will never go using win8, nor 9 if it continues 8's path

problem with masses is that they accepted the fate of "oh well there is nothing I/we can do so I/we will just shut up and use it"

and most sad thing that there are no good alternatives to easy OS which is compatible with most hardware and runs most games like Windows does

but being sold out to me isn't evolution, its bending over

Edited by vinifera
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I will use is start menu or no start menu, because it is my job! personally I think removing the start menu was a bad idea (they could have at least waited until metro was introduced instead killing it on the spot, but it happened). I work for a small home pc repair company we have received call to upgrade systems and give training for the new os. So because of W8 I have work this makes me happy.

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no, we are not evolving (depends per person)

masses are more to bend over and take it up the a**

I for one will never go using win8, nor 9 if it continues 8's path

problem with masses is that they accepted the fate of "oh well there is nothing I/we can do so I/we will just shut up and use it"

and most sad thing that there are no good alternatives to easy OS which is compatible with most hardware and runs most games like Windows does

but being sold out to me isn't evolution, its bending over

Hear, hear!

Although, I'm a little more hopeful than that. It remains to be seen just how well Windows 8 sells, and how the broader computing public receives it. It's interesting that Hewlett-Packard, one of the biggest PC vendors, already felt compelled to announce that it would tolerate but not support UPgrades to Win7.

--JorgeA

P.S. I noticed the message in your signature. How can anybody do that in 2012? And wouldn't MSFT frown on it?

Edited by JorgeA
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I will use is start menu or no start menu, because it is my job! personally I think removing the start menu was a bad idea (they could have at least waited until metro was introduced instead killing it on the spot, but it happened). I work for a small home pc repair company we have received call to upgrade systems and give training for the new os. So because of W8 I have work this makes me happy.

Hmm, maybe you can add one of the many Start Menu+Button replacements to your service's "bag of tricks." ;)

--JorgeA

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Here's a perceptive commentary on the idea that we are entering a "post-PC era" supposedly heralded by the rise of tablets:

The idea that PCs would be made irrelevant by portable consumption devices is asinine. Professional photo/video/sound/etc. editing isn't going away and isn't going to suddenly jump to 10 inch tablets. The real problem, imo, has been that so many people bought computers almost solely to consume content (music, video, web, etc.). Now that we have proper devices for consumption it's not surprising that a lot of people aren't buying big, bulky systems just to read their e-mail or participate on Facebook. If anything, all we've seen is a necessary correction in the market, made possible by a new 'class' of devices.

(Comment by "HydrantHunter")

--JorgeA

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Cannot say if already posted, if yes, sorry, otherwise interesting (poll on adoption of Windows 8 asked to Techrepublic members):

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/window-on-windows/rejected-74-of-organizations-have-no-plans-to-deploy-windows-8/6828

An interesting point is the difference in percentage by nation/country. (possibly driven by the HP help desk needs ;))

The actual report is for member only, though:

http://www.techrepublic.com/whitepapers/windows-8-business-intentions-deployment-plans-driving-factors-roadblocks-and-strategies/32565796

As an OT note:

How many "external" input devices does the MS Surface use?

How many of them have seemingly a big driver issue?

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-Releases-Workaround-for-Surface-Sound-Issue-305508.shtml

Seemingly we can use UNARY :w00t: to reply to both questions.... :whistle:

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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On the whole Neowin is full of sycophants, it's not worth going there if you want an informed discussion about technology. Especially if you use Google stuff, then they're openly hostile. I'm glad there's a bit more open mindedness here at MSFN.

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