Jump to content

Welcome to MSFN Forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account


Photo

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


  • Please log in to reply
6045 replies to this topic

#226
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

That's ATSC feeds, or OTA ATSC feeds. Whatever you wanna call them. ATSC is the standard used to transmit over-the-air in all of North America. Microsoft disabled that feature for us Canadians, even though we use the exact same broadcasting standards (we're supposed to be fully switched to digital by now too). Nice of them, isn't it? We have to resort to rather elaborate tricks for it to work at all, and there's no program guide for my local channels either. I wonder what other countries Microsoft has been locked from having OTA reception besides us. So yes, if I took that away from you *and* CableCARD, now you'd know what it's like in other countries ;) I believe you now fully understand why most of us don't use it. OTA ATSC feeds work fine in basically all programs except media center (and they typically record in more "standard" formats too)

CoffeeFiend,

That is unbelievable! :no: Why on Earth would they do such a thing?

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I think you're providing inaccurate information, not at all -- it's that it's hard to understand why they would cripple their own product that way. Amazing. Maybe there's some underlying regulatory or licensing issue going on, but then you'd think those issues would apply equally to the other DVR-like applications that you allude to...

MS has been citing low WMC usage metrics. If the percentages include data from around the world, then it's no wonder they look so low: only people in one country can really use it.

--JorgeA


How to remove advertisement from MSFN

#227
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Its no secret that the consumer market is trending away from everyone having a desktop in the home. This is reflected by the successes of Mac, tablets and notebooks being ever more popular. As even older people get computers, they are going for what is simple and Windows just isn't simple. The trend away from desktops was forcast a few years ago and is definately on track. I agree that Windows needs to be in that market space, but Microsoft would do better to make Windows 8 a transitional product. One that keeps the standard desktop that we are all used to, but has full capabilities to be used in a device. As noted, while the market is ready for moving to the simpler type of computer, the hardware isn't widely available, known or the price isn't right.

Tripredacus,

What do you think of the idea (proposed by many) of letting the buyer decide which UI to use exclusively (Metro or desktop)? The selection could be made 1) by the type of hardware (i.e., buy a tablet, it's Metro for you), or 2) during Windows installation, or 3) conceivably at any time afterward.

The Metro screen could even have a little pop-up once a month or so that said, "Ready for the complete PC experience? Click here!" That way, folks who prefer a simpler existence can have it, without impacting others who prefer a fuller feature set.

--JorgeA

#228
Tripredacus

Tripredacus

    K-Mart-ian Legend

  • Super Moderator
  • 9,817 posts
  • Joined 28-April 06
  • OS:Server 2012
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Well the tablet/device thing would require a different SKU, but having a choice is just what a transitional product like Windows 8 needs. Or just put that choice in Pro and Enterprise and not in the "home" and RT versions.

A little reminder once a month? No way, unless it can detect whether or not the user has upgraded to a touch supported monitor. For example, if Windows were smart enough to detect display capabilities (they can if it has that ID thing I can't remember the name of) and say, well there no ID maybe its a CRT and don't enable Metro. Or if its a 17" LCD monitor from 6 years ago, don't enable Metro. If you want to use it? Go turn it on.
MSFN RULES | GimageX HTA for PE 3-5 | lol probloms
msfn2_zpsc37c7153.jpg

#229
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

    Coffee Aficionado

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,399 posts
  • Joined 14-July 04
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

they can if it has that ID thing I can't remember the name of

You probably mean DDC (or it's data, called EDID). Not that it would tell you how old a device is, or if it has touch / multitouch compatibility. If you want to test for that you typically call GetSystemMetrics with either SM_DIGITIZER or SM_MAXIMUMTOUCHES as a parameter.

They'd have to ensure it's an internal digitizer that's detected, because I definitely wouldn't want my intuos tablet to enable the "Metro for you!" mandatory bit.

Personally, I just think it needs an opt-out, some old-school checkbox or a pair of radio buttons to disable it. Anything really. So long as it can be disabled in any way but I don't see it happening anymore.
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.

#230
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Personally, I just think it needs an opt-out, some old-school checkbox or a pair of radio buttons to disable it. Anything really.

"Anything really" is the operative phrase. With the monthly check, etc., I was merely offering some sample ways to give a choice, based on the stated premise that many people would be starting simple with Metro and then some of them might want to move up to more complex computing with the Desktop.

--JorgeA

#231
MagicAndre1981

MagicAndre1981

    after Windows 7 GA still Vista lover :)

  • Patrons
  • 6,033 posts
  • Joined 28-August 05
  • OS:Vista Ultimate x86
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

the only really killer feature of Windows 8 (Windows To Go) will be only part of Enterprise Edition:

http://windowsteambl...-workforce.aspx

:no: :thumbdown
Posted Image

#232
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

the only really killer feature of Windows 8 (Windows To Go) will be only part of Enterprise Edition:

http://windowsteambl...-workforce.aspx

:no: :thumbdown

See the following quote from that page:

•Windows RT Virtual Desktop Access (VDA) Rights: When used as a companion of a Windows Software Assurance licensed PC, Windows RT will automatically receive extended VDA rights. These rights will provide access to a full VDI image running in the datacenter which will make Windows RT a great complementary tablet option for business customers.

In terms of enterprise sales -- does this compensate for concerns that new Windows tablets will not be able to join a domain? Or, not really?

--JorgeA

#233
MagicAndre1981

MagicAndre1981

    after Windows 7 GA still Vista lover :)

  • Patrons
  • 6,033 posts
  • Joined 28-August 05
  • OS:Vista Ultimate x86
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

the other confusing part of WIn8 SKUs is that if you want to build a HTPC you need to buy Win8 Pro + the Media Pack and got features like Domain Join or Client Hyper-V in a HTPC which you never need there :rolleyes: :blink:
Posted Image

#234
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
MagicAndre,

Yeah, there's speculation on the HTPC boards as to whether this will help to improve Windows Media Center by providing an income stream specific to it, or whether it indicates a desire by Microsoft to kill off and bury WMC.

Personally, I don't understand the decision -- for the exact reasons you give. Why not offer it as an add-on to Win8 "home" users, too?

--JorgeA

#235
MagicAndre1981

MagicAndre1981

    after Windows 7 GA still Vista lover :)

  • Patrons
  • 6,033 posts
  • Joined 28-August 05
  • OS:Vista Ultimate x86
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Why not offer it as an add-on to Win8 "home" users, too?


I have no idea. Ask this MS.
Posted Image

#236
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
Sorry MagicAndre, it was only a rhetorical question! :) I totally agree with you.

--JorgeA

#237
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
Paul Thurrott is officially undecided on Windows 8:

Ultimately, I keep coming back to the same question: Does a single OS with two user experiences—Metro and the desktop—make sense? I just don't know, not yet. In a bid to find out, I've installed the Consumer Preview on all my regular-use machines and will be using only Windows 8 going forward... For now, I can say that the Metro environment makes plenty of sense for tablets, whereas the desktop is likely to continue to rule on traditional PCs. Given the Windows 8 release schedule, that might need to be enough.


On the other hand, Neowin.net reports that Microsoft is claiming that

the number of people using the preview version of the OS is already past that of the Windows 7 beta release at the same time period for both versions.

Of course, that could be due at least in part to curiosity over the controversial new Metro interface.

Thoughts? Comments?

--JorgeA

#238
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

    Coffee Aficionado

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,399 posts
  • Joined 14-July 04
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Paul Thurrott is officially undecided on Windows 8

If even himself isn't really liking it despite trying to the best he can... it's not looking good.

the number of people using the preview version of the OS is already past that of the Windows 7 beta release at the same time period for both versions.

I wonder how they fabricated their numbers to backup that statement.

The consumer preview is almost 2 months old, yet its market share of desktop OS'es is 0.11% according to hitslink.com (or 0.08% according to w3counter)
The first Win7 beta was released in early January 2009. 2 months later (March 2009) its market share was more than double at 0.26%

That's if you don't count the developer preview which is from last September (the first available version in both cases). That's 7 months to reach 0.11% then, while Win7 had 1.19% at that point which is ten times more. (or 0.08% and 1.75% respectively if you go by w3counter's numbers)

I'm not worried that they set criterias for the statistics so it says whatever they want it to say e.g. downloads of the ISO image based on an arbitrary date or other nonsense, like % of Win8 users visiting the Win8 blog which should be unrealistically high. It also doesn't say just how much of these are still using the developer preview with Metro disabled. And it doesn't say much (if anything at all) about how many will actually stick with it. I've tried both the DP and CP and I certainly won't be running it, be it at home or work, on any type of device.

The other thing they're not talking about is consumer approval (not that they'd be honest about this either). Everybody just loved Win7 from day one, whereas everybody just seems to very much dislike Win8 -- specifically everything to do with Metro. And you're not given any options to disable the nonsense either.

In the end it doesn't matter. It'll be one huge and embarrassing fiasco for Microsoft that will likely make Vista seem like a minor failure in retrospect. Yes, Vista was slow on under-powered hardware but otherwise it was mostly okay. Win8 is a total nightmare on all desktops regardless of hardware. I willingly bought Vista, and I wouldn't install Win8 even as a free upgrade.
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.

#239
Octopuss

Octopuss

    I am the walrus

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,127 posts
  • Joined 31-January 07
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Win8=the WinME of 21st century? :P

#240
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

    Coffee Aficionado

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,399 posts
  • Joined 14-July 04
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Win8=the WinME of 21st century? :P

At least WinME didn't force a stupid UI meant for an entirely different kind of device on you (it looked and worked very much like Win98 and Win95). Nor did it try to force dinky phone-like "apps" on us to replace traditional software.

Win8 is making everything useful about Windows "legacy", only to force an ill-suited touchscreen interface on mouse/keyboard users which is a gigantic setback in usability and which will just confuse everybody. It'll take some time for most users to adjust to this tacky interface and its gaudy icons, gestures, hot corners and screen edges (removing buttons), hidden elements (less visual cues), reduced discoverability, scrolling up/down with the mouse that actually scrolls sideways, everything running maximized (and with no chrome), the desktop being just another application, multitasking being very much neutered, the disjointed combo of metro and desktop environments, etc. Also, customizability has been thrown out of the window, they're forcing MS cloud services on users, ARM devices throw 20 years of backwards compatibility out the window (and they also introduce locked bootloaders), the app store that can remotely deactivate apps you paid for, the existing Metro apps are of incredibly bad quality and are very much feature-light (most are also useless without an internet connection), etc. At best it just gets in your way, it's an obstacle to getting work done and it slows you down.

They've reinvented the wheel by making it square. It creates countless major problems rather than solving any, just so they have a laughable chance at selling a few mediocre tablets (I'm sure it'll sell as good as the Zune or Windows Phone). But hey, explorer now has a ribbon, and task manager has heat maps!

TL;DR: It's far, FAR worse than WinME.
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.

#241
MagicAndre1981

MagicAndre1981

    after Windows 7 GA still Vista lover :)

  • Patrons
  • 6,033 posts
  • Joined 28-August 05
  • OS:Vista Ultimate x86
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

I wonder how they fabricated their numbers to backup that statement.

The consumer preview is almost 2 months old, yet its market share of desktop OS'es is 0.11% according to hitslink.com (or 0.08% according to w3counter)
The first Win7 beta was released in early January 2009. 2 months later (March 2009) its market share was more than double at 0.26%


yeah, pure PR lies as usual.
Posted Image

#242
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Win8 is making everything useful about Windows "legacy", only to force an ill-suited touchscreen interface on mouse/keyboard users which is a gigantic setback in usability and which will just confuse everybody. It'll take some time for most users to adjust to this tacky interface and its gaudy icons, gestures, hot corners and screen edges (removing buttons), hidden elements (less visual cues), reduced discoverability, scrolling up/down with the mouse that actually scrolls sideways, everything running maximized (and with no chrome), multitasking being very much neutered, the disjointed combo of metro and desktop environments, etc. Also, customizability has been thrown out of the window, they're forcing MS cloud services on users, ARM devices throw 20 years of backwards compatibility out the window (and they also introduce locked bootloaders), the app store that can remotely deactivate apps you paid for, the existing Metro apps are of incredibly bad quality and are very much feature-light (most are also useless without an internet connection), etc. At best it just gets in your way, it's an obstacle to getting work done and it slows you down.

CoffeeFiend,

That's the best summary of the situation that I've seen anywhere.

This Metro nonsense is starting to spread like a disease. A couple of nights ago I visited winunleaked.tk to see what they've come up with lately. Instead of reaching the blog directly, now they first put up a Metro-looking "Start" screen where you click on the part of the website that you want to go to. Of course, before this it used to be that you could reach the blog page directly and then click on the forum link if you wanted to visit that part of the site. Bottom line: it's more steps if you want to read the blog, and no fewer steps if you want to enter the forum. Not only does it look like Win8, it works just like Win8, too! :rolleyes:

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 22 April 2012 - 09:48 AM.


#243
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

    Coffee Aficionado

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,399 posts
  • Joined 14-July 04
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

yeah, pure PR lies as usual.

Of course. Next they will be saying "It's the best selling OS ever!", based on sales of most PCs which come with that OS as the only option (totally disregarding those who will upgrade it to Win7 later or those who make use of their "downgrade" rights at purchase time), bulk purchases of licenses by big chains still unsold and sitting on shelves of their stores, not accounting for the increase of desktops/laptops sold in that time frame, comparing sales over periods of different lengths, etc. That will be another useless fabricated statistic, just like they did with Vista. They're so predictable with their lies and half-truths. They might as well have written this book.

Now, if you can show me that more PCs were actually sold with Win8 and isn't getting upgraded to Win7 shortly after, than there were PCs sold with Win7, while accounting for market growth and such factors then sure, that will actually mean something. Of course MS won't give us something like that as it would look really bad for them. Of course they'd never admit that it's not selling well. Fortunately for us, the online market share statistics mostly reflect real world usage of various OS'es (what's currently used -- not what it shipped with, or licenses old that aren't installed on a PC or whatever) and we do have access to that. Then again, MS is already lying about this which is pretty funny. The other metric we won't see is what percentage of the population actually likes it, but anyone who's been in any Win8-related article/blog post/forum thread or such can very quickly see that this number is very low comparatively.

That's the best summary of the situation that I've seen anywhere.

Thank you :)

Meanwhile, everyone's making fun of their new "Windows RT" name and they already see it failing in the enterprise (duh!)
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.

#244
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,419 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Posted Image


BEFORE that:
Posted Image

They've reinvented the wheel by making it square.

Back to the origins...
Something you, like the vast majority of people, might be unaware of, is that the original design for the wheel was a square.

after a very unfortunate attempt to reduce the number of bumps by using a triangle as shape....

...it was later re-invented as an octagon, with the new approach of reducing the magnitude of bumps....

....then the latter idea evolved into a dodecagon....

...and only relatively recently it was fully developed as a circle ... :whistle:

Why, in my day, all we had was...:
http://reboot.pro/1908/
and we LIKED it!

It's far, FAR worse than WinME.

Me wasn't actually that bad, it was a bettered Windows 98, only worse. (BTW not as bad as Vista - a bettered XP, only MUCH worse ;))


jaclaz

#245
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

    Coffee Aficionado

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,399 posts
  • Joined 14-July 04
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

BEFORE that:
Posted Image

I never played that version. But it seems very much like Radio Shack's Pocket Repeat from the 80's:
Posted Image

BTW not as bad as Vista - a bettered XP, only MUCH worse ;)

While Vista was pretty heavy, and good quality drivers were late, at least it offered a good amount of worthwhile stuff. Like better security, start menu search, sleep that finally "just works", etc. I mean, that wasn't so bad comparatively speaking.

Win7 vs Win8 fares much, much worse. Win8 is very much lacking in terms of new features (only a couple minor "okay" new things, and zero must-haves) while doing away with large parts of what made it a good OS (like a sane user interface, for starters). It's about as bad as moving from XP down to Win 3.1.

Thankfully Win7 is a fantastic OS and it'll remain viable for a number of years. Hopefully Win9 won't be such a disaster, otherwise we'll all move to something else like OS X and virtualize what we can't just replace or port. I'm certain it'll boost Apple's sales regardless.
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.

#246
Octopuss

Octopuss

    I am the walrus

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,127 posts
  • Joined 31-January 07
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

At least WinME didn't force a stupid UI meant for an entirely different kind of device on you (it looked and worked very much like Win98 and Win95). Nor did it try to force dinky phone-like "apps" on us to replace traditional software.

Win8 is making everything useful about Windows "legacy", only to force an ill-suited touchscreen interface on mouse/keyboard users which is a gigantic setback in usability and which will just confuse everybody. It'll take some time for most users to adjust to this tacky interface and its gaudy icons, gestures, hot corners and screen edges (removing buttons), hidden elements (less visual cues), reduced discoverability, scrolling up/down with the mouse that actually scrolls sideways, everything running maximized (and with no chrome), the desktop being just another application, multitasking being very much neutered, the disjointed combo of metro and desktop environments, etc. Also, customizability has been thrown out of the window, they're forcing MS cloud services on users, ARM devices throw 20 years of backwards compatibility out the window (and they also introduce locked bootloaders), the app store that can remotely deactivate apps you paid for, the existing Metro apps are of incredibly bad quality and are very much feature-light (most are also useless without an internet connection), etc. At best it just gets in your way, it's an obstacle to getting work done and it slows you down.

They've reinvented the wheel by making it square. It creates countless major problems rather than solving any, just so they have a laughable chance at selling a few mediocre tablets (I'm sure it'll sell as good as the Zune or Windows Phone). But hey, explorer now has a ribbon, and task manager has heat maps!

TL;DR: It's far, FAR worse than WinME.



Good, I will spend money on buying WinRAR and donating to Imgburn and similar free USEFUL programs instead.



#247
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,159 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
Apropos of some of the images we've been seeing in this thread, check this out. ;)

--JorgeA

#248
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,419 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Apropos of some of the images we've been seeing in this thread, check this out. ;)

The world is so nice because everyone can have his/her opinions :), OT :ph34r:, but not much ;), and JFYI:
http://sourceforge.n...cts/winlockpro/

I realized that people were getting boored of the normal user interface that Windows 7 has provided us since it's release, hence created a new interface with tons of special features to protect your privacy,data and to make your user experience better.

WinLock Pro was inspired by Windows 8. After the release of the Developers preview, I was immediately drawn towards its simplicity and beauty. The new and improved metro interface to all the minor changes caught my attention. Something that really won me over was the excellent Lock Screen and logon interface that Windows 8 provided the home user, a simple and easy way to access your PC at any time without any trouble. I was browsing online one day and realized that there were a countless number of blogs and forums dedicated towards this topic. And I immediately thought of bringing this experience all the way to Windows 7,Vista and XP.


:whistle:

jaclaz

#249
tomasz86

tomasz86

    www.windows2000.tk

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,520 posts
  • Joined 27-November 10
  • OS:XP Pro x86
  • Country: Country Flag


Exactly. There's a handful of people obsessing over how fast it boots when I reboot like once a month. That might save me all of 2 minutes per year! Or indeed, how it would run better on a ten year old computer which I'd never want to use for anything in the first place. As if those are main concerns, especially when Win7 already works great on 5+ year old hardware.


A lot of the talking points from MS on Win8 are about increased boot time. Tossing around figures and times that remind me of my old Win95 PC as far as boot time. I think I only know one person that shuts down their computer at night. Most people just leave them on since the old days of memory corrupting and PC getting slow are things of the past OS like Win95 or 98.

Actually I'd like to disagree with this point. It may not be important on a desktop where you indeed can have it turned on all the time but it's very important on laptops and other mobile devices which you sometimes need to turn on and just use instantly instead of waiting those several seconds. Of course this shouldn't be the main feature of Win8 but still I personally wouldn't neglect the benefits of it.
Posted Image
Unofficial Service Pack 5.2 for MS Windows 2000 <- use this topic if you need help with UURollup, Update Rollup 2 and other unofficial packages

#250
MagicAndre1981

MagicAndre1981

    after Windows 7 GA still Vista lover :)

  • Patrons
  • 6,033 posts
  • Joined 28-August 05
  • OS:Vista Ultimate x86
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

@jaclaz

everyone has a different taste. I personally hate the metro look. The colors are ugly and the first thing which I disable is the ugly lock screen. This is annoying for me on the desktop :realmad:
Posted Image




3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users



How to remove advertisement from MSFN