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Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


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#301
JorgeA

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Sounds like it's going to be a fantastic OS for audio and video content! :rolleyes:

CoffeeFiend,

Nice, concise rundown of the deficiencies in Windows 8 for people who do music, movie, or TV on their PCs.

I've been making my way through the hundreds of comments to the MSDN blog about WMC (thanks again, @belgianguy). Overwhelmingly, they're angry or disappointed. Here's possibly the most succinct comment:

ha ha ha Windows 8 codenamed Titanic

:lol: :realmad:

I'll check out your links this weekend. Sounds like the reaction to Win8 in the computing media is getting increasingly negative.

--JorgeA


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#302
MagicAndre1981

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Has Microsoft forgotten what Metro's all about?

When Microsoft announced Windows Phone 7, it made a bold proclamation: current smartphone operating systems are doing it wrong. They’re trying to be too much like computer operating systems when they should be something else entirely. “Phones kind of look like PCs, and the phone is not a PC,” Joe Belfiore, Windows Phone program director at Microsoft, said when Windows Phone was announced at Mobile World Congress 2010. “We wanted to revisit how we thought about [the phone] design.”

It's somewhat ironic, then, that Microsoft is trying to force a tablet interface – the same style of interface the company designed for phones, only enlarged – on PCs, while also shoehorning a traditional PC interface on tablets.


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#303
CoffeeFiend

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They’re trying to be too much like computer operating systems when they should be something else entirely

Smartphones are too much like a computer OS? Ok. I'd really like to know how making the computer OS just a smartphone (what they've actually done with Metro) was the answer to that.

Or in other words: phones are too much like a PC, so we'll turn PCs into phones :wacko:

Do they put LSD in the water over there?

Win8 is such a train wreck of an OS. Its only value seems to be comedic.
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#304
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Win 8 looks to be a I'll pass like Vista turned out to be. none of my money invested there and certainly won't be buying this junk either.

Oh where oh where are thee Sir Bill G, come back, you left idiots in charge :wacko:
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#305
JorgeA

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Has Microsoft forgotten what Metro's all about?


When Microsoft announced Windows Phone 7, it made a bold proclamation: current smartphone operating systems are doing it wrong. They’re trying to be too much like computer operating systems when they should be something else entirely. “Phones kind of look like PCs, and the phone is not a PC,” Joe Belfiore, Windows Phone program director at Microsoft, said when Windows Phone was announced at Mobile World Congress 2010. “We wanted to revisit how we thought about [the phone] design.”

It's somewhat ironic, then, that Microsoft is trying to force a tablet interface – the same style of interface the company designed for phones, only enlarged – on PCs, while also shoehorning a traditional PC interface on tablets.

MagicAndre,

CoffeeFiend has spotted the error in the logic there.

According to the Metro folks, the phone may not be a PC... but the PC is now a phone.

Meanwhile, check out this article from last year that I just found. Is Windows 8 a parting insult?

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 08 May 2012 - 10:30 PM.


#306
JorgeA

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Win 8 looks to be a I'll pass like Vista turned out to be. none of my money invested there and certainly won't be buying this junk either.

Oh where oh where are thee Sir Bill G, come back, you left idiots in charge :wacko:

What, aren't you into upgrading your computers with an exciting new OS that does things you don't care about (Metro tiles), and doesn't do what boring old OS's do (play DVDs, record TV)?

Shame on you!

It sure would be interesting to hear what Bill G thinks about all this.

--JorgeA

#307
UltimateSilence

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I do like what they're doing with Explorer (Ribbon!) I feel that there are real improvements, but since the Metro UI is forced, enhancing Explorer seems almost trivial.


Win 8 looks to be a I'll pass like Vista turned out to be. none of my money invested there and certainly won't be buying this junk either.

Oh where oh where are thee Sir Bill G, come back, you left idiots in charge :wacko:

What, aren't you into upgrading your computers with an exciting new OS that does things you don't care about (Metro tiles), and doesn't do what boring old OS's do (play DVDs, record TV)?

Shame on you!

It sure would be interesting to hear what Bill G thinks about all this.

--JorgeA


I found something, perhaps related to Windows 8!

EDIT: Alright, maybe it wasn't recent...But the comparison is especially true with Windows 8. :unsure:

Edited by UltimateSilence, 09 May 2012 - 02:53 AM.

yZo4FWG.png
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#308
JorgeA

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I found something, perhaps related to Windows 8!

UltimateSilence,

That was a VERY interesting blog post. Nice find!

What a strange reaction from Gates to the guy's analogy. It seems like Bill assumed that, in the shower/toilet/fountain model, Windows was the toilet. Freud might have had something to say about this.

Additionally, though it’s uncomfortable for the left-brained among us to discuss, another one of the fundamental aspects of today’s state-of-the art user experience design is to focus on how the software makes the user ‘feel’. You can imagine how popular a fuzzy notion like this is in a company (and industry) where empirically -minded engineers and their fans are running the show.

Hits the nail right on the head. Esthetics is the main reason why I like Vista, and one of the many reasons I dislike Windows 8. When it comes to how I feel when using Metro, this is the best emoticon: :puke:

--JorgeA

#309
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Paul Thurrott is continuing what looks increasingly like a remarkable turnaround vis-à-vis Windows 8, this time with respect to Windows Media Center:

I feel like I’m finally getting the whole modus operandi, the zeitgeist, if you will, of the Building Windows 8 Blog. And it goes like this: Pummel the reader with so much information that it obscures the real point of the post. And in this case, the point of this post had very little to do with Media Center, despite the title.

--JorgeA

#310
ricktendo

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I was willing to put up with the new metro interface and flat GUI but they just lost me with DVD/WMC decision

Remember the Vista days when some customers wanted to "downgrade" and go back to XP?

Be prepared Microsoft because you have created a new XP and its name is Windows 7 (this time it could be considered a "upgrade" to downgrade to 7 :P)

Edited by ricktendo64, 11 May 2012 - 12:31 AM.


#311
UltimateSilence

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Paul Thurrott is continuing what looks increasingly like a remarkable turnaround vis-à-vis Windows 8, this time with respect to Windows Media Center:

I feel like I'm finally getting the whole modus operandi, the zeitgeist, if you will, of the Building Windows 8 Blog. And it goes like this: Pummel the reader with so much information that it obscures the real point of the post. And in this case, the point of this post had very little to do with Media Center, despite the title.

--JorgeA


Thank you for sharing, JorgeA.

I think my favorite part was this:

Microsoft can't make this kind of decision. Instead, it issues mammoth, dense blog posts that both obscure what they're really doing and then retroactively justifies those actions. Its strategy appears to be to pummel people into not paying attention. Sorry, but it's not working. And it's not right.


Mind you, it isn't my favorite because its a good thing (it's not), but because what he is writing is true.
Wonder what Windows 9 will be like... or will there be a Windows version after 8? Microsoft might finish the job by then. :ph34r:

Edited by UltimateSilence, 11 May 2012 - 12:53 AM.

yZo4FWG.png
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#312
belgianguy

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Not a day goes by without hearing about another dubious 'feature'.

At least they're not spending their money on making an out-of-touch music video for their phone, right? Oops, seems like they did! What the hell were they thinking?

In other news, they have decided that IE10 will get access to features other browser vendors will not have access to, making for an uneven playing field. I know Mozilla et al can still make a Metro version, but they can't optimize it, nor rely on the system to provide advanced functionality like Just-In-Time compiling (JIT) and security related features. People cite small market share of WinRT, but Windows is Windows to me. And I just hope they aren't thinking of returning to their anti-trust shenanigans of yore. Even so, the claims that they're doing it for security are absolutely unfounded, they could block/forbid any product that they deemed unworthy, but instead they opt to keep them all out on the premise that "they won't be safe", IE10 isn't infallible either. And of course, as a last line of defense: "Apple does it too" .

Great defense, Apple2 err Microsoft.

While I'm no longer in the market to buy anything labeled Windows 8, I'm getting more and more bewildered about what it is that they put in the water in Redmond.

Sigh.

#313
Tripredacus

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I was willing to put up with the new metro interface and flat GUI but they just lost me with DVD/WMC decision


I think that there is a perfectly good reason for this. I wonder what is the actual usage of DVD playback on Windows 7? I personally do not know anyone who uses this feature. That being said, those I know from online that use it do not use WMP to do it! Maybe PowerDVD or some other tool. MS is working towards creating products for specific purposes. I would imagine that those using HTPCs are going to be pushed towards the Home Server SKU to take care of that complaint. One thing is for sure, I know for a fact that most people use the wrong OS for what they want, but they don't know that. Then they don't want to hear that and don't like the idea of switching to the "correct" OS. :rolleyes:

In other news, they have decided that IE10 will get access to features other browser vendors will not have access to, making for an uneven playing field.


Note: this IE10 business is for ARM CPUs (Windows RT) and not the standard OS we get on PCs. Even if (once, ever?) a regular user can buy an ARM system (I know they have some micros out there for cheap) a Windows RT install DVD isn't made available to the general public. It might show up for users with MSDN/Technet subscriptions or Certified Partners. We'll have to wait to see that.
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#314
JorgeA

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I was willing to put up with the new metro interface and flat GUI but they just lost me with DVD/WMC decision

Remember the Vista days when some customers wanted to "downgrade" and go back to XP?

Be prepared Microsoft because you have created a new XP and its name is Windows 7 (this time it could be considered a "upgrade" to downgrade to 7 :P)

ricktendo64,

Funny you should mention downgrades. I just bought, on clearance, a tower system that was billed as "Vista Business." But when I booted up the machine, I got the XP splash screen. It turns out that the box came with separate DVD sets for both XP and Vista. So we might say that the computer was "pre-downgraded" to XP...

I'm wondering how aggressive Microsoft will be about pushing Windows 8. Will they disallow downgrades to 7? Given the other crazy things they've done, nothing would surprise me at this stage!

It'll be really interesting to see how the general public reacts when they unpack their new PCs and are greeted by the Metro start screen.

--JorgeA

#315
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Wonder what Windows 9 will be like... or will there be a Windows version after 8? Microsoft might finish the job by then. :ph34r:

UltimateSilence,

That's a great question. I've seen speculation as to what Windows 9 will be like, ranging from the resurrection of the Start button and Start Menu with a real choice of UI, to the complete elimination of the desktop in a brave new Metro world. Then again, as you suggested, maybe MS is simply speeding toward a concrete wall. This is one of those times when I wish we had a crystal ball!

Thanks for the kind words. We do what we can.

--JorgeA

#316
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I think that there is a perfectly good reason for this. I wonder what is the actual usage of DVD playback on Windows 7? I personally do not know anyone who uses this feature. That being said, those I know from online that use it do not use WMP to do it! Maybe PowerDVD or some other tool. MS is working towards creating products for specific purposes. I would imagine that those using HTPCs are going to be pushed towards the Home Server SKU to take care of that complaint. One thing is for sure, I know for a fact that most people use the wrong OS for what they want, but they don't know that. Then they don't want to hear that and don't like the idea of switching to the "correct" OS. :rolleyes:

Tripredacus,

Count me as one of those who uses the CD/DVD function in Windows Media Player. But I do admit that it's not a huge deal for me, since I don't use it that often and there are options out there.

Still, I can't see buying a computer for any purpose, that didn't include an optical drive. What if the computer gets infected and I need to scan it with a Linux live system? Will a notebook or Intel tablet necessarily include the ability to boot off a flash drive? Or what if the hard drive fails or the OS gets totally borked, and I need to reinstall Windows -- how does one do that without an independent (optical) drive?

More worrisome to me than the loss of native DVD support is the relegation of Windows Media Center, not only to add-on status, but to an add-on that you can get only if you're willing to shell out for the most expensive SKU. WMC has been a hidden treasure for far too long, and now instead of bringing it out and showing it off to the world (marketing), they've decided to make it even harder to get at.

It was intriguing what you said about most people using the wrong OS for what they want, but they don't know that. Can you elaborate?

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 11 May 2012 - 10:14 AM.


#317
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Not a day goes by without hearing about another dubious 'feature'.

At least they're not spending their money on making an out-of-touch music video for their phone, right? Oops, seems like they did! What the hell were they thinking?

In other news, they have decided that IE10 will get access to features other browser vendors will not have access to, making for an uneven playing field. I know Mozilla et al can still make a Metro version, but they can't optimize it, nor rely on the system to provide advanced functionality like Just-In-Time compiling (JIT) and security related features. People cite small market share of WinRT, but Windows is Windows to me. And I just hope they aren't thinking of returning to their anti-trust shenanigans of yore. Even so, the claims that they're doing it for security are absolutely unfounded, they could block/forbid any product that they deemed unworthy, but instead they opt to keep them all out on the premise that "they won't be safe", IE10 isn't infallible either. And of course, as a last line of defense: "Apple does it too" .

Great defense, Apple2 err Microsoft.

While I'm no longer in the market to buy anything labeled Windows 8, I'm getting more and more bewildered about what it is that they put in the water in Redmond.

Sigh.

belgianguy,

Nice find on that Nokia video. Did you notice near the end of the video, they were shuffling off floppy disks?

I think the defense for allowing only IE in the Windows on ARM version involves making an analogy to phones. The idea is that a smartphone has a built-in browser, and nobody seems to complain that it's the only browser available.

OTOH, as the Mozilla lawyer pointed out, there are plans for ARM-based PCs. If IE is the only browser allowed, it puts all others at a disadvantage in the PC segment. IMHO it all has to do with this notion of unifying the user experience and treating a PC like a tablet like a phone.

What CoffeeFiend said a few posts back, bears repeating: a PC is not a phone, and a phone is not a PC.

--JorgeA

#318
jaclaz

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What CoffeeFiend said a few posts back, bears repeating: a PC is not a phone, and a phone is not a PC.

Hmmm.
What about "Fone+"? :unsure::
http://phys.org/news98525702.html
http://hardware.slas...is-your-next-pc

What about this? :w00t:
Spoiler

:angel

Seriously now, news from 2002 :whistle: :
http://www.time.com/...1001925,00.html

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#319
JorgeA

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jaclaz,

Cool picture! Given the rollers at the bottom, we might say that that was an early version of a "mobile" phone...

Hmm, I'd never heard of the Fone+. I guess I never paid attention to it -- I want my cell phone to be as "dumb" as possible. Like a cartoon I once saw, of a customer at a cell phone kiosk: "I want a phone that's just a phone."

--JorgeA

#320
JorgeA

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Like a horror-movie monster that won't quit till it overrruns the whole city, it looks like Metro style is invading the Desktop. Check out these screenshots: The Desktop buttons, checkboxes, scroll bar, and spinner are all taking on the flat Metro look in the Windows 8 Release Preview.

The text explains that the intent is to lessen the visual shock of switching back and forth between Desktop and Metro. As implemented, of course, the result is that Metro style is taking over the Desktop. So, for those (mostly in other forums) who've said that you can always just stay in the Desktop -- well, Microsoft intends to force-feed users the unleavened bread of Metro even in the (formerly) visually rich Desktop experience.

--JorgeA

#321
CoffeeFiend

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The Desktop buttons, checkboxes, scroll bar, and spinner are all taking on the flat Metro look in the Windows 8 Release Preview

Wow. Just when it thought it couldn't possibly get any worse...
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#322
JorgeA

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Catching up on my podcasts, I came across the following exchange in "Security Now!" with Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte. CoffeeFiend may find it especially interesting, as he's suggested that, post-Windows, Apple would be his first choice. (Emphasis added.)

Steve: ...And I did pick up a little security news that Apple has postponed their enforcement of app sandboxing, iOS app sandboxing. So Touch, Phone, and iPad. It was going to go into effect around now, but they're moving it back to March 1st and then saying we're not moving it again. Now, the problem is that this is - it's a mixed blessing. It is an enhancement to the security of iOS and of all iOS apps at the inevitable cost of features. So developers are not happy and have not been implementing Apple's sandboxing because it is restricting. It's restrictive and restricting some things that they would like to be able to do, reaching out of their own file system zone in order to --

Leo: It's actually, Steve, it's worse than you think.

...
Leo: It's not iOS, it's the desktop. They're talking about all apps sold in the Mac App Store. And I understand your confusion because you don't use an iPhone.

Steve: No.

Leo: They're not talking about iOS. That's already implemented. They're talking about in the App Store for desktops. So it's really kind of a shocker. And it's something I'd actually been worried about for some time because, while you can still, and always probably will be able to - well, I shouldn't say always - for the time being be able to sell apps outside the App Store, there's so much convenience and value to buying apps in the App Store that I think a lot of users have moved to the App Store. So what Apple's now saying, they've said all along no demos, no betas. What Apple is now saying is, if you want to --

Steve: I'm stunned.

Leo: I'm stunned, too. If you want to sell apps in the App Store on the desktop, your apps must be sandboxed. We've talked about this on MacBreak Weekly. I think the iOS-ification of the desktop is where Apple's headed.

...
Steve: Oh, yeah, as I said, with the inevitable loss of features. Now I'm stunned.

Leo: Can you imagine an application that cannot write to the file system?

Steve: Holy moly.

Leo: I truly believe that Apple's intent is to get everybody using its desktop computers to essentially be in an iOS-style state. It will be undoubtedly secure. And I don't, at some point, I don't understand how the transition's going to occur because of course you can still - I can buy an app that can write to the file system and for the time being will continue to. At some point, for this to make any sense, Apple's going to have to turn that feature off and say, just as on iOS, you must buy from the App Store, unless you jailbreak it.

...
Leo: Am I wrong? If you sandbox, does that not mean that you cannot write to the file system? Isn't that what that means?

...
Leo: I think what's really happening, and I think - now, with Steve [Jobs] gone, this may change. There are already some changes happening. And I think that this was a Steve. But with Steve gone, some of this is up in the air. But here's what I think they were headed towards: making, essentially making - and by the way, Microsoft's kind of doing the same thing with Windows 8 - making the desktop essentially an iOS, which is more secure, more controlled. I suspect Apple's apps, just as on the iOS, Apple's apps can do things that other people can't, because we trust ourselves, I suspect that what this does is pushes you - and Apple's always wanted this - into Apple apps. Apple would like you to buy only Apple apps...

...
Leo: ...I think what will happen is that people who want a full operating system will have to migrate somewhere else.

The following provides some background:

Leo: Now, the question is also how Apple implements sandboxing. We're interpreting it in the most draconian, strictest form. And I'm looking at what they do right now in OS X Lion, and they do allow an app, for instance, to write to the hard drive. But they have to go through Apple's dialogue box to do so. They can't examine other people's files. In other words, it's almost like application-based permissions.

Steve: Yes. I'm looking at something here, it says, "To then meet the program's needs, the developer includes a sandbox rule called an 'entitlement.' That allows the program to access the needed resource defined in that entitlement. The entitlements are managed by Apple, and thereby allow Apple to centralize how sandboxed programs can access resources in OS X."


Comments? As Steve and Leo say at another point, soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go.

--JorgeA

#323
jaclaz

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I want my cell phone to be as "dumb" as possible. Like a cartoon I once saw, of a customer at a cell phone kiosk: "I want a phone that's just a phone."

You are not the only one:
http://www.urbandict...term=dumb phone
http://news.yahoo.co...-171852131.html
http://www.prdaily.c...f_it_11560.aspx
and a nice picture :thumbup from the latter:
Spoiler


jaclaz

#324
JorgeA

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jaclaz,

I can relate to everything they said in those links! Thanks for posting them.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 12 May 2012 - 10:13 AM.


#325
cluberti

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LOL - love that pic :)
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