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Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


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#326
CoffeeFiend

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I want my cell phone to be as "dumb" as possible. Like a cartoon I once saw, of a customer at a cell phone kiosk: "I want a phone that's just a phone."

Same here. I just want a phone that can make phone calls. In fact, I only have a landline. It's definitely easier on the wallet! Unlimited calling, including long distance for $20/month flat. Getting cell phones for me and the kids on a shared plan, with some daytime minutes, some long distance, unlimited text and some data would cost me like ten times that.

So developers are not happy and have not been implementing Apple's sandboxing because it is restricting. It's restrictive and restricting some things that they would like to be able to do, reaching out of their own file system zone

Sandboxing sort of makes sense for a web browser and dinky apps. But yes, for regular old software it just gets in your way.

They're talking about all apps sold in the Mac App Store

So yeah, dinky apps sold online (no matter which device they run on) will run sandboxed. I mean, just how much access a dumb twitter client or weather app should need on your PC? That's not one of my real concerns.

Like they said, you can still install software that's not sandboxed, and most likely it'll always stay that way. I can live with that. That's not my main issue with Win8 either (simpleminded Metro apps run sandboxed, but everything else isn't)

I think what will happen is that people who want a full operating system will have to migrate somewhere else

Too bad there's nowhere else to go I guess. Yes, Windows and OS X may possibly one day be entirely sandboxed, as unlikely as it seems, and that would make running some software a real pain or downright impossible. However the main alternative to both is fundamentally incompatible with commercial software, so it'll most likely never be a viable platform for a lot of us.

soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go

...which isn't what I'm after. It's all about being able to run the software you need, not "thinkering". For what it's worth, Linux can also be very much locked down (file permissions, sudo, chroot jailed apps, SELinux, etc). And if everybody else does it then they'll probably follow.

All I want is to be able to run the software we need to get the job done. Right now that means running Windows, and OS X to a lesser extent (it still has FAR less useful apps, by a LONG shot, but it's still usable for a lot of tasks). However, even if Windows has more software going for it, they're going "full retard" with the UI, so I'd rather work on a Mac (not so much because it has an outstanding UI, but because anything and everything is better than Metro), and Macs stand a chance of getting more commercial software in the next few years (especially if MS screws up this badly). Linux offers an UI that's somewhat lesser than OS X (IMHO), but that's mostly irrelevant as it doesn't run the software we need and it most likely never will.
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#327
JorgeA

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CoffeFiend,

Thanks for the comments, it's good to get the perspective on this Apple snadboxing thing from someone who has heavy-duty professional requirements.

soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go

...which isn't what I'm after. It's all about being able to run the software you need, not "thinkering". For what it's worth, Linux can also be very much locked down (file permissions, sudo, chroot jailed apps, SELinux, etc). And if everybody else does it then they'll probably follow.

To be fair to the podcast guys, "tinkering" was my word. FWIW, in case it changes anything the exact way they put it was:

Steve: ...I was going to say that, if this continues, then this really changes the terrain, where these mainstream, high-volume, consumer OSes become closed systems, and Linux for the first time really starts to look like the place where the hackers --

Leo: If you want to do anything, yeah.

Steve: -- and the power users live, yeah.


All I want is to be able to run the software we need to get the job done. Right now that means running Windows, and OS X to a lesser extent (it still has FAR less useful apps, by a LONG shot, but it's still usable for a lot of tasks). However, even if Windows has more software going for it, they're going "full retard" with the UI, so I'd rather work on a Mac (not so much because it has an outstanding UI, but because anything and everything is better than Metro), and Macs stand a chance of getting more commercial software in the next few years (especially if MS screws up this badly). Linux offers an UI that's somewhat lesser than OS X (IMHO), but that's mostly irrelevant as it doesn't run the software we need and it most likely never will.

Yeah, that would be a killer. Some Linux folks that I've met talk like it's the best invention since sliced bread, and yet as you point out they've been giving the OS away for years and they're still at -- what, only 1% market share or something. We might say that Linux stands at the opposite extreme of what Microsoft is trying to do with Metro: esoteric, obscure, and difficult to handle. Classic Windows was a good middle ground between Metro simplistic and Linux arduous.

--JorgeA

#328
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it's good to get the perspective on this Apple snadboxing thing

I wouldn't exactly consider myself as some sort of reference regarding anything Apple really.

To be fair to the podcast guys, "tinkering" was my word.

Ah, yes. That changes the big picture a bit.

Some Linux folks that I've met talk like it's the best invention since sliced bread

I hear that a lot, but they pretty much always fail to express exactly in what way it's better. Most of them are just blindly repeating what they've heard like good sheeple. Should you ask them an explanation, they'll typically reply with "it's free/open source" which basically means "I have no idea!" or "teh M$ sux!". About 1% of the time, you'll get an intelligent answer, by someone's who's been using it professionally for years, explaining how they use bash, common userland tools (grep, sed, cat, etc) and SSH to do their job (typically things like working with a LAMP stack on Linux servers -- not your typical desktop workload). Then again, I've seen that kind of answer come from Mac users more often. Also, it's kinda funny to see this as an answer to "how much more advanced Linux is", when most of these utils are from the 1970's Unix world (that sounds so futuristic!) The same brainwashed sheeple are those who will tell you Linux has all the software anyone could possibly need (you know, GIMP is is like, as good or better than Photoshop!), that you should run all your games under WINE, and that the hardware support is so much better than Windows (which is just a total BSOD-fest, you know) -- and if you say any different then you're either a troll or a paid shill... According to them, this year will be the year of the Linux. Those delusional people have been saying that for over a decade, it's just what particular feature they talk of which changes over time (it used to be things like GNOME, not so long ago it was Compiz Fusion, right now it's things like Wayland and I'm already wondering what it'll be next) -- while totally disregarding the big picture. They'll keep changing distros every few years (you can already see lots of people abandoning Ubuntu, which was the "new hot thing" 5 years ago), or as a way to solve issues with their current distro. Meanwhile, more users who are dissatisfied with MS products move to Macs pear year than Linux has gotten in 20 years, even if it requires buying new and expensive hardware.

esoteric, obscure, and difficult to handle

Perhaps to some extent. I can deal with that part, but the very limited selection of software that runs on Linux is very much a deal killer for me. If I can't get work done then what good is it? I'll still take a somewhat locked-down OS that runs most useful software over one that's unlocked but doesn't. Macs seem like the new "middle ground": it doesn't run as much as Windows, but it runs more than Linux. I still find Macs very limiting when it comes to what runs on them but at least you're free from Metro. I find Win7 to be a far better option than both, but that's only going to be a viable option for so long.
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#329
Tripredacus

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Funny you should mention downgrades. I just bought, on clearance, a tower system that was billed as "Vista Business." But when I booted up the machine, I got the XP splash screen. It turns out that the box came with separate DVD sets for both XP and Vista. So we might say that the computer was "pre-downgraded" to XP...

I'm wondering how aggressive Microsoft will be about pushing Windows 8. Will they disallow downgrades to 7? Given the other crazy things they've done, nothing would surprise me at this stage!


Yes when Vista came out, MS allowed a period for Downgrade Rights, which I think was 8 months or so. I can't remember the exact period. It was very helpful in business since many companies wanted to stick with XP. Even when Windows 7 came out, it had Downgrade Rights to Vista but I don't recall anyone actually using that. I'd expect the same model to continue for Windows 8 to 7, but I haven't heard anything about the program yet.
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#330
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As soon as I see that there is an interface in existance looking like Metro* on my PC, I immediately ask for refund.
(* or whatever the next "Bob" is called.)

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#331
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I definetely vote against metro-for-desktop with my wallet!

Though i can see some way for micro$oft to get arround that.

MS will force new contract with OEM only to sells Metros not bundle it with any previous version of Windows,
then when the end-user doesn't like it, MS will sell to end user the "DownGrade Rights" (lesson learned from Vista experiences).

For single unit of desktop computer, MS will got the income from OEM and possibly the end-user as well.
MS will have double income, they can eat the cake and have it too.

#332
CoffeeFiend

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MS will have double income, they can eat the cake and have it too.

Also, it still counts as a Win8 sale, so it'll be the best selling OS ever (according to some twisted math like they've done for Vista)
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#333
JorgeA

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As soon as I see that there is an interface in existance looking like Metro* on my PC, I immediately ask for refund.
(* or whatever the next "Bob" is called.)

+1 to that.

If Tripredacus is right and it's possible to downgrade even after Win8 is released, then I won't have to rush out and buy the souped-up PC I've been eyeing, for a while longer yet.

--JorgeA

#334
JorgeA

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MS will have double income, they can eat the cake and have it too.

Also, it still counts as a Win8 sale, so it'll be the best selling OS ever (according to some twisted math like they've done for Vista)

*sigh* You're right. Still, I would take that over not being able to get Windows 7 at all once 8 comes out.

Back in the day, did anybody publish reliable statistics as to how many PCs that came with Vista installed got downgraded to XP? I'm sure that there will be some way to estimate how many Win8 systems actually make it to regular use, vs. how many are sold.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 14 May 2012 - 10:17 PM.


#335
Tripredacus

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Yeah, they already inflate their numbers by counting VLK and OEM sales into their retail figures. Now since they are marketing Windows 8 RT and Windows Phone 8 as "Windows 8" they can just toss those numbers in there too!
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#336
Fredledingue

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Classic Shell 3.5 adds support for Windows 8

and

The Win8 Start Menu replacements are looking better and better. I'll give this a try.

_____________________
Amazing that we are still at the preview versions and coders already released patches to improve/correct it.

It speaks volume on MS inability to realize what poeple want or wether they care of that.

When the first Unofficial Service Pack for w8 Developer Preview? :D
______________________

customizability has been thrown out of the window, they're forcing crappy MS cloud services on users, ARM devices throw 20 years of backwards compatibility out the window (and they also introduce locked bootloaders), the app store that can remotely deactivate apps you paid for

and

but Metro is the future according to MS. The old desktop and all technology is dead for MS.

__________________
MS has decided to turn computers into interractive TV.
They signed at the same time the dead of the PC and the the birth of the shopping & entertainement console.
(Note the "cart" tile on the Metro)

And also the uniformisation of the interfaces. Wether you turn on a TV, a computer or a hand-held device you get the same screen with the same moronic suggestions about last products, fashion, new hits, weather and celebs.

I'm positive that even single moms with kids will hate it.
MS is very deeply underestimating the seriouseness of the regualar home users about their computer.
Just listen to non-geek/tech-ignorant poeple around you complaining about things, not so ignorant and not so non-geek.

IMO in the future, if you want to use your computer as a computer you will have to buy a version of Windows designed for serious, office works.

Because I can't imagine that MS think seriousely about selling W8+Metro to companies and professionals.

Edited by Fredledingue, 15 May 2012 - 01:35 PM.

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#337
UltimateSilence

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People who purchase a new Windows 7 PC between June 2012 and January 2013 will be eligible for a discounted upgrade (15$) to Windows 8 Professional, according to this ComputerWorld article.

(Sounds like someone is worried?)

Edited by UltimateSilence, 15 May 2012 - 06:01 PM.

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Keep Windows XP alive!

Please do not misconstrue Windows 7 license sales as actual sales of the operating system. PCs are bundled with Windows 7, and count towards the sales figures.
Running Windows Vista on HP Pavilion Slimline.


#338
Tripredacus

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People who purchase a new Windows 7 PC between June 2012 and January 2013 will be eligible for a discounted upgrade (15$) to Windows 8 Professional, according to this ComputerWorld article.

(Sounds like someone is worried?)


Well the interesting part of this isn't the fact there is an upgrade deal. That has been done before, but before it was free.
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#339
Fredledingue

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Looking at the comment on Sinofsky's blog, the verdict is unanimous: Metro will is a disaster.

With all these negative feedbacks, they would be crazy to go ahead with that. They would face total incomprehension.

Warning: the list of comments is realy huge.

Not only they suck with their OS, they also do with their website.

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#340
belgianguy

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Uh-oh... Windows 8 will "disappoint": Analysts cut price targets on HP, Dell and Windows Phone ranks below Bada in worldwide sales


While the phone market is still in its infancy, one could argue that kind of news is to be expected for WP7, but because of their "Windows everywhere" strategy, it might very well backfire right into its already hurting new desktop platform as well.

#341
CoffeeFiend

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That has been done before, but before it was free.

It's hilarious. They're pushing a worthless update, and you have to pay for it too. I'd much sooner pay $15+ to get rid of it!

Looking at the comment on Sinofsky's blog, the verdict is unanimous: Metro will is a disaster.

And I can tell you for sure that they do censor some of the comments, even if you're not using vulgar language or anything special. I've had very mild comments that just never got posted, as many others have. Either ways, they don't care at all if we all complain or that customers don't want any of it. Metro will be forced down your throat if you have to use Win8.

With all these negative feedbacks, they would be crazy to go ahead with that. They would face total incomprehension.

Yet they will still go ahead with it. It'll make Vista seem like a monumental success.

Windows 8 will "disappoint": Analysts cut price targets on HP, Dell

The RC isn't out yet and everyone already knows it's going to fail hard. Ain't that saying something?

Windows Phone ranks below Bada in worldwide sales

Yep. MS couldn't sell mobile devices even if they came with a free gold ingot. They've failed hard with WinMo devices, they've failed hard with the Zune and the Kin, they're failing hard with Phones, and they're going to fail with tablets next (turning their flagship product into something no one wants to buy in the process)

that kind of news is to be expected for WP7

Seeing how well Windows Mobile phones sold before WP7 phones (they've been trying for a decade), it was very much expected that they would't sell either.
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#342
JorgeA

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Yeah, they already inflate their numbers by counting VLK and OEM sales into their retail figures. Now since they are marketing Windows 8 RT and Windows Phone 8 as "Windows 8" they can just toss those numbers in there too!

Tripredacus,

Incredible but true...

That's one rationale for making all your devices run on the same interface -- it makes the sales totals look bigger. :rolleyes:

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 17 May 2012 - 11:55 PM.


#343
JorgeA

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When the first Unofficial Service Pack for w8 Developer Preview? :D

LOL

MS has decided to turn computers into interractive TV.
They signed at the same time the dead of the PC and the the birth of the shopping & entertainement console.
(Note the "cart" tile on the Metro)

And also the uniformisation of the interfaces. Wether you turn on a TV, a computer or a hand-held device you get the same screen with the same moronic suggestions about last products, fashion, new hits, weather and celebs.

I'm positive that even single moms with kids will hate it.
MS is very deeply underestimating the seriouseness of the regualar home users about their computer.
Just listen to non-geek/tech-ignorant poeple around you complaining about things, not so ignorant and not so non-geek.

+1 on that! IMX most folks who buy a computer treat it pretty seriously. It's not a tablet or a phone: they've got one of those, too, and THAT's the one that gets treated like a platform for trivial stuff.
Each kind of device has its own reasons for existing, but the geniuses at MS seem to be blind to that.

--JorgeA

#344
JorgeA

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People who purchase a new Windows 7 PC between June 2012 and January 2013 will be eligible for a discounted upgrade (15$) to Windows 8 Professional, according to this ComputerWorld article.

(Sounds like someone is worried?)

UltimateSilence,

Hmm... This may sound shocking, given everything that I've been saying all along, but this time-limited offer of an inexpensive upgrade to Win8 may actually get me to purchase one single license. :w00t:

A couple of factors are at play here. Let's assume that the upgrade to Pro brings me one of the necessary steps closer to getting Windows Media Center on Win8. And let's assume that WMC for Windows 8 will have the same lifecycle as Windows 8. And finally, let's assume that the EPG (electronic program guide) isn't going to be provided forever, but rather only during the officially supported lifecycle of the product.

If all three of these hold true, then it might make sense for me to buy one license so that I can extend the supported life of my DVR PC by three years. That PC lives in WMC anyway, so exposure to Metro silliness will stay at a minimum.

Again, this is assuming that, as now a separate add-on, Media Center doesn't end up with its own (truncated) lifespan.

There is NO other reason, though, for me to consider buying a computer with Windows 8, let alone installing that OS on any of my existing computers. I'd rather go without new Windows updates starting in 2017 (Vista) or 2020 (Windows 7). With any luck, by then Microsoft will have been chastened and brought back the possibility of leading a Metro-free life in the Windows ambit.

--JorgeA

#345
bphlpt

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You do realize that you have to "purchase a new Windows 7 PC between June 2012 and January 2013" in order to "be eligible for a discounted upgrade (15$) to Windows 8 Professional", right? So that upgrade license is going to cost you a whole lot more than 15$.

Cheers and Regards

Edited by bphlpt, 18 May 2012 - 01:17 AM.

Posted Image


#346
xpclient

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I used to be one of the biggest fans of the Microsoft era when they knew what they were doing and had a clear vision. Everything they did was magic in the 90s. Today, I am a critic. It's over. Vista started it and Metro will end it. Microsoft is dead. They still make a profit, but their own foolish dumb products are killing them. It's a company filled with dumb people. Their dumbness knows no bounds. Vista/Windows 7 had some brilliant innovations though to make up for the less than ideal UX.

Windows 8 is beyond just upsetting. It's not just that it's crap (which, make no mistake, it is), it's that it shakes my previously solid faith in Microsoft to its core. It's the same company which created a product such as Windows XP. Windows 7 can't match up to XP at usability, it's just Vista polished and re-marketed for dumbed down experience but looks gorgeous and the improvements under the hood are superb. But I look at Windows 8 and I see a product made by dumb people. That's too harsh. But certainly not the Microsoft of the 90s. It's just another big company that makes crap without even knowing what it's doing. You can argue that Microsoft of the 90s made well-designed but buggy software but that was more an issue of development talent. Bill Gates knew what he wanted, he just didn't always have the people under him to execute. Now, they don't even have that. They are lost and clueless, without any idea of user interface design, user experience, usability. It's depressing.

I think of Ballmer as this:

Posted Image

Edited by xpclient, 19 May 2012 - 08:10 AM.

Impossible to run NT6 without third party fixes.


#347
Tripredacus

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Now that is just scary! :o
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#348
JorgeA

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You do realize that you have to "purchase a new Windows 7 PC between June 2012 and January 2013" in order to "be eligible for a discounted upgrade (15$) to Windows 8 Professional", right? So that upgrade license is going to cost you a whole lot more than 15$.

Yes, I do realize that.

I'm sort of in the market for a current PC anyway. Relative to waiting till (for example) 2014 when the discount no longer applied and I would have to pay full freight for Windows 8 Professional, then this could turn out to be a money-saver.

Again, this is assuming that the price of Win8 Pro would ultimately be higher than the price of Win7+Win8Pro downgrade. ;) We'd also have to verify that the new PC would, as different hardware, still be able to play the shows that we already have recorded.

On the other hand, it does give me pause to know that I'd be contributing to improving the sales figures for Windows 8. :ph34r: So it's a close call.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 18 May 2012 - 03:10 PM.


#349
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Perhaps this thread should be called "Deeper Depressions"
I can see my wife and I giving Win8 the same treatment Vista got off us!

#350
JorgeA

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Perhaps this thread should be called "Deeper Depressions"

LOL, very apt! The thread has evolved from a "user's viewpoint review" to a general discussion of Windows 8, but that's OK.

To quote CoffeeFiend, things only get worse with Windows 8: Microsoft is doubling down on Metrofying the Desktop. Design elements that I thought were merely signs of how unpolished the beta version was (such as the squared-off corners of windows) turn out to be deliberate decisions. So "it's not a flaw, it's a feature!"

We applied the principles of “clean and crisp” when updating window and taskbar chrome. Gone are the glass and reflections. We squared off the edges of windows and the taskbar. We removed all the glows and gradients found on buttons within the chrome. We made the appearance of windows crisper by removing unnecessary shadows and transparency. The default window chrome is white, creating an airy and premium look...

To complete the story, we updated the appearance of most common controls, such as buttons, check boxes, sliders, and the Ribbon. We squared off the rounded edges, cleaned away gradients, and flattened the control backgrounds to align with our chrome changes. We also tweaked the colors to make them feel more modern and neutral.

What the MS employee describes as "clean and crisp" is what all along I've thought of as, "flat and plain." Interesting that they should have chosen a screenshot from Windows 1, because that's what Windows 8 is looking more and more like. Hardly a "premium" or "modern" look -- I get the sense that they want Win8 to be able to run on an 80386...

--JorgeA




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