Jump to content

Welcome to MSFN Forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account



Photo

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


  • Please log in to reply
6135 replies to this topic

#3651
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Intel can really hit back by releasing very fast chips again, so fast that emulation and virtualization becomes completely painless, rendering Microsoft's OS planned obsolescence completely moot because then anyone can run any version they choose. They could really hurt them by getting into their own OS business, even if it is merely a super virtualizing hypervisor that sits between the hardware and any Windows version. This would be Microsoft's worst nightmare.

 
This is interesting -- can you elaborate on the part about a virtualizing hypervisor being (potentially) Microsoft's worst nightmare? I can see how Intel releasing its own OS could be a problem for MSFT, but am not so clear on how the hypervisor thing would affect MSFT. Why would they care -- couldn't they argue that unless you're running the latest version of Windows, you're exposed to Internet nasties and also missing out on great new features?

 
Intel very well could write a complete x86 operating system, in fact I would say it is likely they already have for internal use because I simply cannot imagine them needing Microsoft to supply one for their development systems holding schematics, roadmaps and other top secret stuff. The danger for them writing an OS for consumers has at least two big problems ...

(1) The final user interface design may drift too far away from classic Windows ( like Metro! ) and turn off the market and it would be dead in the water after a substantial development and testing expense. What would be the point of a nice OS that is GUI crippled to end-users? They have shown they won't touch it.

(2) The legal war with Microsoft over the API. Even though Intel owns the intellectual property of the processor instruction sets, Microsoft no doubt holds patents on the API implemntations. This is mega-complicated by some of them like Win16 and Win32 being way old but probably adjusted along the way so that they somehow are kept out of the public domain. My gut feeling is that Intel would win on the merits but lose financially from the expense of the legal bloodbath. It is a fight that needs to be fought though.

So if the goal is for the end-users to be able to continue using their own Windows versions on existing and forthcoming hardware ( and flip the bird at Microsoft because they are using NuWindows as a trap ) then it might be a better idea to forgo a cleanroom clone of Windows ( because they just might get the thing working great but screw up the GUI ) and just develop the low level software that facilitates the already existing Windows operating systems.

VM's started out functioning at much lower levels than we see today with most running essentially as just another piece of client software ( although I see that Wikipedia says that Hyper-V is considered low-level ). It will make more sense if I just copy that section here ...
 

In their 1974 article "Formal Requirements for Virtualizable Third Generation Architectures" Gerald J. Popek and Robert P. Goldberg classified two types of hypervisor:[1]

Type 1 (or native, bare metal) hypervisors run directly on the host's hardware to control the hardware and to manage guest operating systems. A guest operating-system thus runs on another level above the hypervisor.
This model represents the classic implementation of virtual-machine architectures; IBM developed the original hypervisors as bare-metal tools in the 1960s: the test tool, SIMMON, and CP/CMS. CP/CMS was the ancestor of IBM's z/VM. Modern equivalents include Oracle VM Server for SPARC, Oracle VM Server for x86, the Citrix XenServer and VMware ESX/ESXi.

Type 2 (or hosted) hypervisors run within a conventional operating-system environment. With the hypervisor layer as a distinct second software level, guest operating-systems run at the third level above the hardware. VMware Workstation and VirtualBox exemplify Type 2 hypervisors.

The classification of specific hypervisor implementations as Type 1 or Type 2 is not always clear cut. For example:

- Kernel-based Virtual Machine (KVM) is implemented as a kernel module for Linux 2.6.20 which, when loaded, allows the Linux kernel to operate as a bare-metal (i.e., Type 1) hypervisor.[2] However, as Linux is an operating system in its own right, one can argue that KVM is a Type 2 hypervisor.[3]

- Microsoft Hyper-V (released in June 2008)[4] has also been misidentified as a Type 2 hypervisor.[5] Both the free stand-alone version and the version that is part of the commercial Windows Server 2008 product use a virtualized Windows Server 2008 parent partition to manage the Type 1 Hyper-V hypervisor. In both cases the Hyper-V hypervisor loads prior to the management operating-system, and any virtual environments created run directly on the hypervisor, not via the management operating-system.

Attempts have been made to introduce the term Type 0 (Zero) Hypervisor to differentiate specific hypervisor implementations.[6][7] However, no consensus as to the validity of this term has been reached.[8]
[/b]

 
Now, Intel is closer to the CPU instruction set and the microcode than anyone on Earth, and in fact has even added VT-x ( see this for details ) to some of their CPU's, unfortunate key word here being some. Physically all the pieces are in place for a perfect bare metal solution if Intel would stop playing games by only adding features to certain chips to segment their products.

That perfect solution ( for consumers tired of chasing Microsoft but want Windows ) is a low-level, lean and mean hypervisor that on one side talks right to the chip microcode and on the other side presents the normal instruction set to the operating system. This could be a 2nd, higher layer of microcode and therefore might be just added to the CPU itself or a secondary on-package chip. The existing operating systems would still see the CPU and retrieve the normal CPUID to determine which HAL to install and you have business as usual after that.

Naturally this depends upon Intel's benevolence and sympathy for the plight of the x86 universe which Microsoft is presently targeting for destruction ( they are not trying to kill the physical architecture, but are planning on preventing user mode software from ever talking to it again ). This is why I say it would be Microsoft's worst nightmare because it removes them from the new operating system business altogether. Users could install whatever version of Windows they have lying around and hardware makers would only need to write device drivers for new hardware using any existing DDK targeting any version of Windows they want.

Of course there is much wishful thinking here, and the point is that these thoughts never crossed our minds until now. Microsoft is getting out of the neutral operating business and moving to a curated gatekeeping system. The very best solution would be for Microsoft to liberate all the x86 source code and related IP and continue with their walled-garden Metro madness. The 2nd best would be for the government to send in SWAT teams and just take it ( which would be an ironic taste of what some people have actually had happen to them thanks to IP and patent laws pushed by Microsoft and others ).

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...



How to remove advertisement from MSFN

#3652
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Windows 8.1 is a problem when it comes to "planning" deployments. Already got a look at the "new" policies and they are pretty much the same as Windows 8. So I am really hoping that I don't have to do much planning other than just doing it the same as Windows 8. So the problem comes in where I can't do any actual testing because how the Preview works. In the two installation paths (through the store or the ISO) they both require (or prefer) connecting to the internet. So its just a waiting game but I doubt there would be some mass scramble to get it rolling. I've heard that most of the Windows 8 licenses being sold are through the Downgrade Rights program anyways. :rolleyes:


You also have to consider that installing the preview means a reinstall later of apps and programs after the full release is RTM'd.

Actually, neither of those articles mentioned any difference in the Enterprise version so I am assuming the rules applies here as well.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#3653
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,217 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
Intel very well could write a complete x86 operating system, in fact I would say it is likely they already have for internal use because I simply cannot imagine them needing Microsoft to supply one for their development systems holding schematics, roadmaps and other top secret stuff. The danger for them writing an OS for consumers has at least two big problems ...
[...]

 

Thanks a bunch Charlotte for the extensive explanation.

 

I guess what I'm trying to wrap my head around is why there would be a need for a VM over which to run an older version of Windows, vs. simply running that version of Windows directly on the machine. (Note that this is a different issue from -- for example -- running XP in a VM inside Windows 7 because you have some old program that won't run on the newer Win7. In the case we're discussing, we are trying to dispense with the newer OS altogether.)

 

Let me give a simple hypothetical example and see if I'm getting it. Suppose that, four years from now, they come out with "USB 4". None of today's Windows versions is equipped to handle that: the Intel VM would provide the way to make use of USB 4 on (say) Windows 7.

 

Is that the sort of thing we're talking about? In that case, I could see how one could keep running 7 indefinitely. 

 

--JorgeA



#3654
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,217 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Windows 8.1 is a problem when it comes to "planning" deployments. Already got a look at the "new" policies and they are pretty much the same as Windows 8. So I am really hoping that I don't have to do much planning other than just doing it the same as Windows 8. So the problem comes in where I can't do any actual testing because how the Preview works. In the two installation paths (through the store or the ISO) they both require (or prefer) connecting to the internet. So its just a waiting game but I doubt there would be some mass scramble to get it rolling. I've heard that most of the Windows 8 licenses being sold are through the Downgrade Rights program anyways. :rolleyes:

 

Now, there's a statistic I'd love to get a hold of -- the percentage of "Windows 8" licenses that get sold but then downgraded to 7.

 

--JorgeA


Edited by JorgeA, 31 July 2013 - 10:50 AM.


#3655
Tripredacus

Tripredacus

    K-Mart-ian Legend

  • Super Moderator
  • 9,902 posts
  • Joined 28-April 06
  • OS:Server 2012
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

I wouldn't have any idea what the real number is. I could guess maybe its at least 80% (or I could wager it might be something like 95%!) Even with my own projects, I had written the deployment system to count a Downgrade as a Windows 8 system.

 

But we are in a time period where people can still buy Windows 7 without using the Downgrade program. They aren't forced into doing a downgrade to get Windows 7 yet, but I haven't heard when that time is. You can expect that once Windows 7 technically enters "downgrade only" phase, there will be a news update saying Windows 8 sales went up. :P


MSFN RULES | GimageX HTA for PE 3-5 | lol probloms
msfn2_zpsc37c7153.jpg

#3656
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,217 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

I wouldn't have any idea what the real number is. I could guess maybe its at least 80% (or I could wager it might be something like 95%!)

 

Whoa! :o

 

 

Tripredacus, on 01 Aug 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

 

But we are in a time period where people can still buy Windows 7 without using the Downgrade program. They aren't forced into doing a downgrade to get Windows 7 yet, but I haven't heard when that time is. You can expect that once Windows 7 technically enters "downgrade only" phase, there will be a news update saying Windows 8 sales went up. :P

 

LOL -- and it will even be literally true!

 

--JorgeA



#3657
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,217 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

The SkyDrive is falling! (Well, the name, anyway...)

 

“SkyDrive” follows Metro into oblivion as Microsoft abandons trademark case

 

One month after a British court ruled that Microsoft's SkyDrive infringed on a British Sky Broadcasting (BSkyB) Group trademark, Microsoft has decided not to appeal and will find a new name for its cloud storage service.

 

--JorgeA



#3658
monroe

monroe

    Friend of MSFN

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 939 posts
  • Joined 21-May 07
  • OS:XP Pro x86
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Anyone have some comments on this NSA program ... XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'.

 

http://www.theguardi...ram-online-data

 

Wednesday 31 July 2013

 

* XKeyscore gives 'widest-reaching' collection of online data

* NSA analysts require no prior authorization for searches

* Sweeps up emails, social media activity and browsing history

* NSA's XKeyscore program – read one of the presentations

 

A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

 

... more at the link.

 

some of the members here may remember herbalist from a few years ago ... hasn't been around for awhile ... he was ahead of his time on all this, sure would like hear his take on all these developments.


Edited by duffy98, 01 August 2013 - 10:03 AM.


#3659
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,217 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Every time we read about government surveillance, it gets worse:

 

XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

 

A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

XKeyscore, the documents boast, is the NSA's "widest reaching" system developing intelligence from computer networks – what the agency calls Digital Network Intelligence (DNI). One presentation claims the program covers "nearly everything a typical user does on the internet", including the content of emails, websites visited and searches, as well as their metadata.

 

Analysts can also use XKeyscore and other NSA systems to obtain ongoing "real-time" interception of an individual's internet activity.

 

Under US law, the NSA is required to obtain an individualized Fisa warrant only if the target of their surveillance is a 'US person', though no such warrant is required for intercepting the communications of Americans with foreign targets. But XKeyscore provides the technological capability, if not the legal authority, to target even US persons for extensive electronic surveillance without a warrant provided that some identifying information, such as their email or IP address, is known to the analyst.

Analysts can search for internet browsing activities using a wide range of information, including search terms entered by the user or the websites viewed.

 

As one slide indicates, the ability to search HTTP activity by keyword permits the analyst access to what the NSA calls "nearly everything a typical user does on the internet".

 

Maybe a good reason to start using HTTPS Everywhere, even though of course it doesn't cover every conceivable website. Might drive even me to Firefox.

 

One silver lining in the NSA cloud:

The XKeyscore system is continuously collecting so much internet data that it can be stored only for short periods of time. Content remains on the system for only three to five days, while metadata is stored for 30 days. One document explains: "At some sites, the amount of data we receive per day (20+ terabytes) can only be stored for as little as 24 hours."

 

To solve this problem, the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows analysts to store "interesting" content in other databases, such as one named Pinwale which can store material for up to five years.

 

It's hardly necessary to point out the enormous potential for abuse or exploitation of these capabilities for political purposes by sufficiently unscrupulous officials. Trusting human beings not to make use of the vast troves of information thus collected is a rather thin reed on which to build our house. As Lord Acton insightfully wrote, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

 

--JorgeA

 

 



#3660
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,217 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

Anyone have some comments on this NSA program ... XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'.

 

http://www.theguardi...ram-online-data

 

Wednesday 31 July 2013

 

* XKeyscore gives 'widest-reaching' collection of online data

* NSA analysts require no prior authorization for searches

* Sweeps up emails, social media activity and browsing history

* NSA's XKeyscore program – read one of the presentations

 

A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

 

... more at the link.

 

some of the members here may remember herbalist from a few years ago ... hasn't been around for awhile ... he was ahead of his time on all this, sure would like hear his take on all these developments.

 

You beat me to it! :)

 

--JorgeA



#3661
monroe

monroe

    Friend of MSFN

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 939 posts
  • Joined 21-May 07
  • OS:XP Pro x86
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

JorgeA ... just by a few minutes, you provided more information and I will follow about using Firefox ... I use Firefox Portable ESR ...

 

http://portableapps....ox-portable-esr

 

you posted "Maybe a good reason to start using HTTPS Everywhere, even though of course it doesn't cover every conceivable website. Might drive even me to Firefox."

 

That's interesting ... will be reading for more information.

 

Just adding ... only started using Firefox again as a portable version in the last two weeks, had been using SeaMonkey Portable ... have been using FP ESR version but just decided to install Firefox Portable v22.0 and maybe go with it. Still experimenting with these versions to see what the difference might be.

 

http://portableapps....irefox_portable


Edited by duffy98, 01 August 2013 - 03:53 PM.


#3662
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,567 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

And AGAIN, "xkeyscore" is NOT a "top-secret" program!  :realmad:

And it's use is documented since 2008! (so it is not even "news").

 

Please, read again:

http://www.msfn.org/...43#entry1045330

http://www.msfn.org/...43#entry1045335

 

 

 

jaclaz



#3663
Formfiller

Formfiller

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 490 posts
  • Joined 03-January 13
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Watch out what you post on Facebook.

 

http://www.thelocal....0715-50859.html

A German man who called on Facebook friends concerned about American secret service operations to join him in a walk around a US army spy centre near his home, found secret service men at his door checking his political leanings.

 

Daniel Bangert, 28, told The Local he had joked about US spies reading what he had written - and had even told his friends he was waiting for a knock on the door - when it actually came.

"I was still very sleepy when the phone rang - it was 7.17 in the morning - and a police officer started asking questions about what I was planning," he said.

 

"Then the doorbell rang and I saw out the window that a police van was parked outside. The officer on the phone said I should open the door to the others."

He put on a "Team Edward" T-shirt with a picture of NSA whistle-blower Edward Snowden, and answered scores of questions about his plans.

 

Bangert, a veteran of the Blockupy protests in Frankfurt, had set up a group calling itself "NSA spy protection league" (NSA Spion Schutzbund), as if the US spies were an endangered species of birds.

He wanted, he said, to take a walk with some friends to "observe them in their natural habitat" - the Dagger Complex in Griesheim near Darmstadt. This is one base where the NSA (US National Security Agency) is said to operate from. The authority stands accused of monitoring much of Germany's internet traffic.

 

The uniformed police seemed satisfied with his answers about the expected number of people on the walk - 32 had shown an interest, Bangert told The Local. But despite there being no specific agenda, and no plans for a rally or speeches, he was told he had to register the event.

 

"I asked them why, but they could not really explain it to me. They couldn't help me understand what the difference was between going for a walk and meeting up to play football - which you don't have to register," he said.

 

A few hours later, his phone rang again, and one of the police officers who had been at his house that morning, told him the state security wanted to talk with him.

"She said I should call them, that it was important that I did. So I did, and they asked me again about the Facebook entry, and how many people were expected and so on. Then they asked if I would go to see them or if they could come to see me for a personal conversation."

 

He said a state security agent arrived with a local police officer, and asked him a load of questions about his political activities and his opinions, and whether he had any connection to activists willing to use violence. They suggested his Facebook entry could be interpreted in different ways, but he said he was really just organizing a walk.
 

"Then they told me I should not put the meeting on the internet, that I should not write about it," he added.

 

They seemed to be concerned that the walk could get out of control if lots of people showed up - like the Facebook parties which are hijacked by hoodlums. "But I was not offering anything for free like at the parties," he said.

"And in any case, all there is, is a fence, with nothing behind it - everything is underground. No-one is interested."

 

In the end around 80 people showed up on Saturday to take a walk, have a talk and look at the US base.

 

The "NSA spy protection league" Facebook page says of the day: "A group of people young and old gathered at the Griesheim market square and walked to the NSA spy complex, in the most fabulous weather. On the way there, surveillance methods were discussed ... and possible behaviour of the NSA spies was the subject of consideration."

 

It said some of the group had tried with various calls to tempt the NSA spies from the building, but none showed themselves. "Taking part in the walk was not enough, just to know that NSA spies are there - everyone agreed they wanted to see NSA spies with their own eyes. We will see what we can do."

 


Edited by Formfiller, 01 August 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#3664
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

The SkyDrive is falling! (Well, the name, anyway...)
 
SkyDrive follows Metro into oblivion as Microsoft abandons trademark case
 

One month after a British court ruled that Microsoft's SkyDrive infringed on a British Sky Broadcasting (BSkyB) Group trademark, Microsoft has decided not to appeal and will find a new name for its cloud storage service.


More coverage ...

Microsoft ordered to rename SkyDrive over trademark infringement ( TechSpot 2013-07-31 )

Microsoft agrees to change SkyDrive name worldwide; won't appeal ruling (Update) ( NeoWin 2013-07-31 )

Microsoft to Drop SkyDrive Branding Following Defeat in Trademark Case ( Maximum PC 2013-07-31 )

Microsoft to Change 'SkyDrive' Name Following UK Lawsuit ( Tom's Hardware 2013-08-01 )

Karma steps in a week after Microsoft snatched away some Xbox domain names from private citizens. Frankly I'm amazed that they ever thought they had a chance in the first place. They went and surrendered on the Metro name yet fought for this one? Some legal department they have. One huge mistake after another.

Neowin readers offer suggestions for renaming SkyDrive ( NeoWin 2013-08-01 )

Someone else deserves the credit for this ... why not just change it to SpyDrive. :yes:

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#3665
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Anyone have some comments on this NSA program ... XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'.
 
http://www.theguardi...ram-online-data
 
Wednesday 31 July 2013
 
* XKeyscore gives 'widest-reaching' collection of online data
* NSA analysts require no prior authorization for searches
* Sweeps up emails, social media activity and browsing history
* NSA's XKeyscore program read one of the presentations
 
A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.
 
... more at the link.
 
some of the members here may remember herbalist from a few years ago ... hasn't been around for awhile ... he was ahead of his time on all this, sure would like hear his take on all these developments.


More coverage ...

XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet' ( UK Guardian 2013-07-31 )

XKeyScore How the NSA Can See Everything You Do Online ( Tom's Hardware 2013-07-31 )

Microsoft Excel used as example in new NSA XKeyscore leak ( NeoWin 2013-07-31 )

NSA's XKeyscore database tracks everything you've ever done online ( TechSpot 2013-08-01 )

I think we can safely say that every bad nightmare that was discussed in the late 1990's has come true, and then some. Back then they talked about government backsoors in DES and cracking computer passwords and possibly legislating a backdoor going forward for use under court orders in rare cases. Then came 9/11.

Now it looks like they have no restraints, not even the illusion of a restraint and have set upon taking anything and everything by all means necessary. I'm having a hard time thinking of something now that is "private" or "safe".

We're simply going to need a new Internet. And you know what we could do? We'll use the EULA approach pioneered by Big Technology and Big Hollywood and backed by Big Government. We'll just have a disclaimer that says "Use of this Network is reserved for private citizens everywhere, no trespassing by government employees allowed."


EDIT: typo

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 02 August 2013 - 02:49 AM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#3666
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Thanks a bunch Charlotte for the extensive explanation.
 
I guess what I'm trying to wrap my head around is why there would be a need for a VM over which to run an older version of Windows, vs. simply running that version of Windows directly on the machine. (Note that this is a different issue from -- for example -- running XP in a VM inside Windows 7 because you have some old program that won't run on the newer Win7. In the case we're discussing, we are trying to dispense with the newer OS altogether.)
 
Let me give a simple hypothetical example and see if I'm getting it. Suppose that, four years from now, they come out with "USB 4". None of today's Windows versions is equipped to handle that: the Intel VM would provide the way to make use of USB 4 on (say) Windows 7.
 
Is that the sort of thing we're talking about? In that case, I could see how one could keep running 7 indefinitely.


Well first of all remember this is a kludge, and a fantasy at that, so I don't want to get to wrapped up in it!

Why not install the operating system itself to bare metal? This is a direct consequence of planned obsolescence and some ridiculous design flaws in Windows using the registry to stitch together the hardware virtually, where a single error can break something from working. They decided to map out the core hardware spaghetti in elaborate hardware trees generated from entries taken out of INF files supplied by the hardware makers, and in the case of most motherboards that is a chipset package of INF files describing that generation motherboard hardware. When Intel doesn't supply the package for some previous version of Windows ( as it tends to stop doing after a period of time ), boom, it becomes obsolete even though it may be perfectly functioning hardware. And not just Intel, but any number of OEMs stop shipping drivers for earlier Windows for a variety of reasons such as the new SDK or DDK simply won't create files for the last Windows. There is much, much more to it than this quick summary, including likely strong-arm tactics and incentives by Microsoft to stop making drivers for previous versions of Windows, like XP for example. All things considered, it's quite a testament to its longevity as it retains over 1/3 marketshare despite all efforts to kill it. Perhaps someday we'll just rewrite the Windows setup routine ( see below ) and make planned obsolescence a moot point.

Why not just use a plain VM on future hardware to run past versions of Windows? Well there are two definite problems. One is that there is a speed tax for most of them which is compounded by the sudden thwarting of CPU performance advancements for the last few tick-tock cycles from Intel. If CPU throughput and speed had continued to rise and had doubled or tripled instead of crawling along for the past 3-4 years this would be completely unnecessary because any VM software would now be sufficient because the speed tax would be dwarfed by the CPU speed. Only Hyper-V seems close enough to the hardware to minimize the speed tax presently, however this brings up the second problem: Planned Obsolescence, yet again! The last time I checked Hyper-V has a typically ridiculous Microsoft designed supported OS list. There is no Windows XP or earlier, and no home editions of the few recent Windows versions that they do allow. Will this policy change later? Why would it? It's not a bug, it's a feature.

As far as USB goes, I would expect new versions to fallback to whatever speed was standard for that specific version of Windows hosted in the VM session. I believe this is because Microsoft has wedded the USB interface so tightly to Windows that it will be impossible to use the improvements in new releases of USB on older versions of Windows because of likely changes to ( or completely new ) driver files and registry keys. Why new hardware trees in the registry and new product identifiers and new links to new keys are continually needed is beyond me since we are only talking about faster signaling and maybe some error checking. So without a patch to "fix" that old version of Windows ( registry and driver files ) I don't really see using USB 4 on XP or 7 except maybe at the level of compatibility that version of Windows had used. Actually it remains to be seen if even USB 3.1 will work on 7. It was only just announced ( see below ) and is yet another opportunity for Microsoft to obsolete Windows 7. The USB committee could divorce itself from Windows by making the hardware smart enough to detect it's attached devices and operate on it's own but that is off-topic speculation for another day.

Can this compatibility instead be fixed by a theoretical super-VM Intel hypervisor? With some far-thinking complex coding I do think they could chose to somehow thunk the USB 4 interface to transparently appear as USB 2 to the hosted operating system, and provided that the onboard controller and attached devices contain sufficient logic to distinguish which devices operate at what speed and what allowed power, then it would work. But again, Intel, who is very close to the onboard circuitry would have to choose to undertake this step in coding. An act of benevolence for customers of their chipsets. We're way off in fantasyland now, and it is because of decisions made long ago by Microsoft offloading their low level responsibilities to vendors because it suited their purpose of enjoying cash flow from continual customer updating to newer versions of Windows.

Finally, I repeat, this fantasy of an Intel designed hypervisor is merely a daydream, and it is but one of several other possible alternatives that would allow users to continue using Windows of their own choosing. Let's try to summarize them ...

(0) Somehow convince Intel, nVidia and other OEM and chipset makers and peripheral hardware makers to continue releasing drivers and INF files for newer hardware for older Windows versions such as XP. NOTE: I was wrong in saying that the worst nightmare for Microsoft would be item (7) an Intel VM. That would certainly burn them up, but nothing compared to what would happen if hardware makers kept releasing new drivers that sustain Windows XP and other operating systems. That would cut them right to the bone. Ballmer's head would explode like a scene from 'Scanners'. :yes:

(1) Hack an older OS like Windows XP to install on a new motherboard. A very nice solution indeed. This might involve disassembling the Windows Setup executable and some other related modules, modify and then recompile them, as well as adding in new custom INFs and system files to the cabinets which would all serve to allow Windows XP to install on new motherboards. This would require an organized effort at updating the chipset INF package also. Overall it could be thought of as a super evolved NLite process. If this were successful installing to bare metal would certainly be a desirable option, perhaps the most do-able of all options.

(2) Microsoft simply fixes the GUI in Windows 8 and any other disasters they have in the pipeline. This seemingly unlikely scenario is for Microsoft to simply come to its senses and modularize the user interface for Windows, and make it user selectable and customizable. A simple theming engine would do, preferably the existing UxTheme model with some added fixes and expansions but backward compatible. This solves everything because the knuckleheads who want to can keep their Playskool tiles, and the grown-ups can select whatever they feel like, chrome, 3D, Aero, Classic, Bliss and everything else in the archives. That's how a smart company full of smart employees would do it. Unfortunately all the excuses we heard are lies, this was done solely to turn us all into obedient little Appletards.

(3) Windows goes Open Source. This scenario is of course about convincing Microsoft to just release the source code for x86 Windows ( and the related storage and other associated IP ) and get it into the public domain. God knows they ain't using it. Then they can continue their MetroTard dreams and we can get back to work. What happens after that in the open source model is total speculation but I can imagine kernel compiles similar to Linux as workable. But Open Source is unlikely because Microsoft doesn't think they've completely milked the cows dry yet and will probably keep it under wraps forever. Alternatively, let federal SWAT teams storm redmond with flashbangs and liberate the source code as punishment for their monopolistic antitrust violations. Just sayin' :-)

(4) A replacement OS from Intel. And as much as I would like to see an OS by Intel for their x86 architecture, I just don't see trusting them to not screw up the GUI in the process. Maybe they could cut a deal with Microsoft and grab the x86 source code and then move forward ( this is probably more likely than Microsoft selling it to some other company, or releasing it to public domian ). All very unlikely in the present because Intel seems to have some mismanagement themselves who are unwilling to face the threat that Microsoft is now posing to them.

(5) A replacement 3rd party OS ( that's if you want to call Microsoft 1st party, which they are NOT unless you are only thinking of the recent Surface hardware ). There certainly are a few contenders out there but what are the chances that they will get the user interface correct? There are between one and two BILLION people wedded to the classic Windows GUI and history shows that they might get it 70% or 80% right, but skimp on some important detail. Besides that, they have to get the insides correct as well ( Registry, File Systems, etc ). If "legacy" software cannot function they will fail and it is all for naught.

(6) Use an existing available VM. As described earlier the downside is a speed tax under current consumer CPU's, and limited choice of hosted OS, especially on Microsoft's Hyper-V.

(7) A theoretical new lower-level VM hypervisor from Intel. Daydreaming as described above but not impossible since Intel knows the hardware better than anyone.

Other ideas and possibilities welcome to add to the 'Windows Preservation' list.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#3667
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Microsoft's ten percent marketshare goal looking unrealistic as XP remains strong ( NeoWin 2013-08-01 )

The numbers released for July show that Windows XP still holds 37.19 percent of the OS market share. That's actually slightly higher than the firm's numbers for June, which showed Windows XP with 37.17 percent. Microsoft reps recently said that their goal is to get Windows XP down to less than 10 percent by the support cut off date but these new statistics show that Microsoft will have to work very hard to reach that goal.

 

sd3Bxwn.jpg

Windows 8 crawls up another 3/10ths of a percent. Meanwhile both Windows 7 and Windows XP also increase a tiny bit. When you consider that only Windows 8 is being pushed by advertising AND is being shoved into the monopolized OEM channel this is not the kind of thing that the fanboys wanted to see, which is demonstrated by the fact that the author spends most of the article discussing Windows XP and its imminent "demise". The numbers ...

Windows XP .. 37.17 .. 37.19 .. + 0.02 %
Vista ........ 4.62 ... 4.24 .. - 0.38 %
Windows 7 ... 44.37 .. 44.49 .. + 0.12 %
Windows 8 .... 5.10 ... 5.40 .. + 0.30 %
OSX 10.6 ..... 1.76 ... 1.68 ..
OSX 10.7 ..... 1.73 ... 1.69 ..
OSX 10.8 ..... 3.14 ... 3.28 ..
Other ........ 2.11 ... 2.04 ..


BTW: it sure looks like there is an upcoming problem that will bite Microsoft in the butt for choosing a point update nomenclature for the upcoming Windows 8 service pack. Since they are using separate entries for Apple's Mac OSX point updates they will have to do the same for Microsoft Tiles or look like hypocrites.

So here are the two future charting possibilities, neither of which will please the fanboys. Which one will they decide to use? ...

(1) Display OS by major version without breaking down point updates, merging all Apple OSX into a single category where Microsoft Tiles still trails the combined Apple Mac OSX releases!

Windows XP .. 37.19
Vista ........ 4.24
Windows 7 ... 44.49
Windows 8 .... 5.40
OSX .......... 6.65
Other ........ 2.04


(2) Or, breaking out all OS versions including  Microsoft Tiles into point editions ( like OSX currently is ) and having to watch Windows 8.1 Blew start from 0.00 all over again and scratch and crawl its way past Windows 8 RTM.

Windows XP .. 37.19
Vista ........ 4.24
Windows 7 ... 44.49
Windows 8.0 .. 5.40
Windows 8.1 .. 0.00
OSX 10.6 ..... 1.68
OSX 10.7 ..... 1.69
OSX 10.8 ..... 3.28
Other ........ 2.04


There are so many idi0tic comments over there, as usual. So much misinformation they are spreading about Windows XP. They have no idea of "security" concepts and how malware works. One example is from our dear Dot MetroTard who says: "It'll shrink considerably after April 2014 when it get inundated with attacks.". ~sigh~ These people actually believe that the Windows Update system and all the alleged fixes it delivers is somehow akin to an IV in a hospital room delivering medicine to patient keeping them alive on life support. Unplug the IV and the patient dies. They really believe this stuff!


Gabe Newell's Windows 8 'catastrophe' is now the second most used OS on Steam ( NeoWin 2013-08-01 )

The July numbers, gathered from a selection of users that volunteer to share their PC hardware specs for the survey, showed that the 64-bit version of Windows 8 is now being used by 13.34 percent of Steam users, up 1.10 percent from June. That was enough to leapfrog the 64-bit version of Windows 8 ahead of the 32-bit version of Windows 7 to claim the second spot. The 64-bit version of Windows 7 is in first with 52.39 percent, down 1.16 percent from a month ago.


~sigh~ For the umpteenth time, Windows is not used on Steam! What an incredible inversion of logic that is. And it is NOT a nitpick for several reasons. Most obviously the operating system that Steam is allowed to run on is governed by Valve and what they program it for and this will likely change soon. Secondly, Windows 8 is the only operating system that Microsoft is pushing into their monopolized OEM channel so how can anyone be surprised that it is growing? But the most important reason is that Steam users are not running out and buying operating systems to use on Steam! Additionally, Steam is a solution for moderate gamers lacking the patience to buy or build a gaming rig or too cheap to buy a console because it is a point and click solution at game purchasing and game management. It is perfect for MetroTards because it perfectly fits their Playskool skillset. Naturally they are using Steam on Windows 8!

Given those facts, Steam being used on Windows 8 still only rose 1%. That's pretty embarrassing if you ask me.

EDIT: editor CRLF quote bug

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 02 August 2013 - 07:05 AM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#3668
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Windows 8 RTM one year ago today; we take a look back ( NeoWin 2013-08-01 )

Yeah, one year of RTM but over two years of controversy and criticism.
 

Despite heavy criticisms from the start, and a slew of analysts, market watchers and even tech journalists yelling that the new OS was doomed to fail, and that Microsoft was falling into irrelevancy, Windows 8 started gaining ground from the moment it was launched.

The radical UI changes, the new app distribution model, the dichotomy and infuriating double personality of Windows 8 all seemed to fade away as users started adopting Microsofts latest creation. Adoption rate has been steadily increasing with Windows 8 overtaking Vista a couple of months ago and now accounting for 5.4% of the desktop market.


Ladies and gentleman we have our joke of the day. :yes:
 

Windows 8 also heralded the age of the hybrid devices. Microsoft had tried, and partly succeeded in driving its OEM partners to innovate and create new form-factors, designed to take advantage of the dual nature of Windows 8.


Another peek into the dysfunctional mind of the MicroZealot. In their universe where everything revolves around Microsoft, all companies are expected to build hardware for the sole purpose of making Windows look good. This is a common theme among these, people. In a nutshell, they believe that the 1st party is Microsoft and the OEM manufacturer is their 3rd party supplier. Such thinking mirrors those that believe the "people" exist to serve their government, rather than government existing to serve the people. Inverted reality in both cases and it helps to explain the cheerleading for Microsoft and their Tiles, and also for those that welcome the government spying.

The comment section is shaping up nicely thanks to a few intrepid truth-tellers driving Dot MetroTard and others nuts.  :lol:


Until the end of 2013, Microsoft's ex-Windows head can't work at seven rival companies ( NeoWin 2013-07-31 )

7 Companies Microsoft ex-Windows Chief Isn't Allowed to Join ( Tom's Hardware 2013-08-01 )

Microsoft clarified the severance package agreement over what companies that Sinofsky is temporarily banned from. They are: Amazon, Apple, EMC, Facebook, Google, Oracle, and VMWare.


Strategy Analytics: Big boost in Windows Phone units shipped in Q2 2013 ( NeoWin 2013-08-01 )

More results showing that the destruction of Windows to achieve some tiny marketshare was a bad idea. Naturally the shipments of WP increased 100% from before and after WP8 was released as WP7 was dead at the time. But how did the marketshare react to WP8?

Global Smartphone Marketshare Q2 2012 vs 2013
Android ........ 69.50 ... 79.50
Apple iOS ...... 16.60 ... 13.60
Microsoft WP .... 3.60 .... 3.90
Other .......... 10.40 .... 3.00


The sneaky fanboys are busy talking about the SHIPMENT numbers comparing Q2 in 2012 and 2013 instead of MARKETSHARE because the latter, as shown above demonstrates that for destroying Windows and sacrificing the reputation of Microsoft, they gained nothing. NOTHING.


Microsoft releases Office for Android, requires Office 365 subscription ( TechSpot 2013-07-31 )

Office for Android phones released for Office 365 subscribers ( NeoWin 2013-07-31 )

Microsoft Office Mobile for Android Arrives ( Maximum PC 2013-07-31 )

Microsoft Launches Office for Android Phones. Office in your pocket (but not on your tablet). ( Tom's Hardware 2013-07-31 )

No Microsoft Office for UK Android Users Just Yet ( Tom's Hardware 2013-08-01 )
 

Tablet support isn't yet available, and a blog post by Julia White, general manager of the Office Division, doesn't mention when, or if an Android tablet version will be released.


That is a very strange thing noticed by more than a few commenters. They go through the trouble of releasing the Office 364 "service" to Android phones but not any other size Android devices, like tablets and future laptops and PC's. Maybe a pre-emptive strike because they realize by poisoning Windows they have opened the door for its replacement.


Microsoft celebrates one year of Outlook.com ( NeoWin 2013-07-31 )

Outlook.com users experiencing problems accessing email (Update: Back up) ( NeoWin 2013-07-31 )

Nice juxtaposition of two stories up at NeoWin, eh?

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#3669
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Microsoft: 'No more cheats or jerks' online for Xbox One ( NeoWin 2013-07-31 )
 

Microsoft will get direct feedback from players to rate others with this new system, such as when someone decides to mute a player while in an online match or block them from playing entirely. Dunn states, "The new model will take all of the feedback from a players online flow, put it in the system with a crazy algorithm we created and validated with an MSR PhD to make sure things are fair for everyone."

This special algorithm will take into account information about a player that normally plays well with others online but still manages to get a few bad feedback reports a month. According to Dunn:

 

The algorithm weighs the data collected so if a dozen people suddenly reporting a single user, the system will look at a variety of factors before docking their reputation. Well verify if those people actually played in an online game with the person reported if not, all of those players feedback wont matter as much as a single person who spent 15 minutes playing with the reported person. The system also looks at the reputation of the person reporting and the alleged offender, frequency of reports from a single user and a number of other factors.


Does anyone else feel incredibly creeped out by that?  :puke:


SuperSpeed USB 3.1 Specification is Now Official and Twice as Fast as USB 3.0 ( Maximum PC 2013-08-01 )

10 Gbps USB specification finalized as USB 3.1 ( TechSpot 2013-08-01 )

USB SuperSpeed + specification approved as USB 3.1 ( NeoWin 2013-08-01 )

Well at least they came to their senses and incremented the number ( the original stories a few months ago said they were just going to use the name "SuperSpeed +" but keep USB 3.0 ! ). It seems very strange that it only merits a point increase though since it is a doubling of bandwidth. Maybe 3.5 would have been more logical. It apparently is staying mechanically backward compatible, meaning previous USB cables and devices will work in the new USB ports, but only back to USB 2.x. It is unclear to me what happens if a late 1990's USB 1.x device such as a hub is used on USB 3.1, or worse, if a new USB 3.x device is plugged into a 1990's USB 1.x motherboard.


Dell's Board Rejects Michael Dell's Buyout Bid ( Tom's Hardware 2013-08-01 )

Should have took the money. :yes: Windows 8 ain't gonna save them and the competition at all form factors is getting fierce. Expect a lurch to even lower quality crap to squeeze a few more pennies out of each sale.


EDIT: typo

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 02 August 2013 - 07:10 AM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#3670
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,567 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

We're simply going to need a new Internet. And you know what we could do? We'll use the EULA approach pioneered by Big Technology and Big Hollywood and backed by Big Government. We'll just have a disclaimer that says "Use of this Network is reserved for private citizens everywhere, no trespassing by government employees allowed."


Naah, the disclaimer won't work, a secret sentence allowed by a secret law and emitted by a secret court will void it in no time. ;)
But there is a much easier way. :w00t: :yes:

Sun-Tzu (or the Art of War):

If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

 

 

Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling our adversary to make these preparations against us.

 

 

http://www.theguardi...ram-online-data

The XKeyscore system is continuously collecting so much internet data that it can be stored only for short periods of time. Content remains on the system for only three to five days, while metadata is stored for 30 days. One document explains: "At some sites, the amount of data we receive per day (20+ terabytes) can only be stored for as little as 24 hours."

To solve this problem, the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows analysts to store "interesting" content in other databases, such as one named Pinwale which can store material for up to five years.

All is needed is starting talking of Xkeyscore, of NSA and similar topics, in such a way that an analyst will be obliged to "tag" us and thus "store" our generated traffic.

As soon as enough people will be "tagged", the system will collapse. :whistle:

 

jaclaz



#3671
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • Joined 24-September 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

All is needed is starting talking of Xkeyscore, of NSA and similar topics, in such a way that an analyst will be obliged to "tag" us and thus "store" our generated traffic.
As soon as enough people will be "tagged", the system will collapse. :whistle:


You know what, I've been seeing this idea kicked around in the some threads. Keyword bombing.

Haven't really had the courage to test it out ;-)

It would definitely work, but probably boomerang back anyway when they jack up our taxes even more to buy another mountain in Utah to build another data center to house more supercomputers and disks. ~sigh~

Just saw this...

Search for a Pressure Cooker, Get a Visit From the Police ( John Dvorak PC Magazine 2013-08-01 )

Keywords have consequences! Anyway, now of they "Search for a Pressure Cooker" they will also find Dvorak and PC Magazine ( not to mention this thread at MSFN ).

EDIT: at the bottom of this thread where it says "... users reading this topic" I see one called Bing (12)

Any idea what that is? And what's next? ... Prism (87), Xkeyscore (163)

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 02 August 2013 - 07:34 AM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#3672
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,567 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

It would definitely work, but probably boomerang back anyway when they jack up our taxes even more to buy another mountain in Utah to build another data center to house more supercomputers and disks. ~sigh~
 

Sure, it's your Utah, your taxes, and your "country of Freedom" .

harhar.gif

 

 

Poor ol' Benjamin Franklin's soul :( (and a lot of other very nice people of the time, like those that signed the US constitution and the Declaration of Independence) must be really sad when observing the world from the *wherever* they are now.

 

jaclaz



#3673
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,217 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

 

Thanks a bunch Charlotte for the extensive explanation.
 
I guess what I'm trying to wrap my head around is why there would be a need for a VM over which to run an older version of Windows, vs. simply running that version of Windows directly on the machine. (Note that this is a different issue from -- for example -- running XP in a VM inside Windows 7 because you have some old program that won't run on the newer Win7. In the case we're discussing, we are trying to dispense with the newer OS altogether.)
 
Let me give a simple hypothetical example and see if I'm getting it. Suppose that, four years from now, they come out with "USB 4". None of today's Windows versions is equipped to handle that: the Intel VM would provide the way to make use of USB 4 on (say) Windows 7.
 
Is that the sort of thing we're talking about? In that case, I could see how one could keep running 7 indefinitely.


Well first of all remember this is a kludge, and a fantasy at that, so I don't want to get to wrapped up in it!

[...]

 

Thanks a bunch Charlotte, I have a much better handle on it now.

 

And the great overall reporting continues as normal. :thumbup

 

--JorgeA



#3674
Formfiller

Formfiller

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 490 posts
  • Joined 03-January 13
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
EDIT: at the bottom of this thread where it says "... users reading this topic" I see one called Bing (12)

Any idea what that is? And what's next? ... Prism (87), Xkeyscore (163)

 

 

 

Crawlers. Right now, when I write this post, the following crawlers are parsing this thread:

 

Google (6), Mediapartner (1), Google Mobile (9), ScoutJet (1)



#3675
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,217 posts
  • Joined 08-April 10
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
EDIT: at the bottom of this thread where it says "... users reading this topic" I see one called Bing (12)

Any idea what that is? And what's next? ... Prism (87), Xkeyscore (163)

 

:lol:

 

Yeah, I've been seeing those Bing, Yandex, etc. numbers too. At first I thought they might be Web crawlers for the search engine indexes, but if so then why would there be multiple ones. Best I can come up with is that maybe it's people visiting the Forum on their smartphones/tablets?

 

--JorgeA






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users