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Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


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#426
JorgeA

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A veteran Microsoft observer gives the thumbs-down to Windows 8:

I have no idea why Microsoft would take such an enormous gamble on its cash cow like this. Incremental changes were a theme at Redmond, Wash.; this is a radical departure.

What is this departure based on? It’s based on the pipe dream that the unsuccessful user interface used by Windows Phone will turn into a success on the tablet — to such an extreme that people will also demand it on the desktop, so all the platforms can have the same look and feel.

This is insanity, plain and simple. It’s even more nuts knowing that nobody is waiting in line to buy Windows Phone in the first place, and the tablet is untested in the market. So the company jumps ahead to the desktop?

--JorgeA


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#427
MagicAndre1981

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For all the Touch enabled Notebooks which are now presented by several companies:

Steve Jobs: Touchscreen Laptops Don't Work
http://articles.busi...ackpad-notebook

"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical.

It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible.


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#428
JorgeA

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Great find, Andre -- thanks!

Looks like Steve Jobs (R.I.P.) knew something, a year-and-a-half ago, that Ballmer and Sinofsky stil don't know. No wonder Apple stock is at $560 while Microsoft stock has a hard time staying over $30.

Not to mention that it really didn't require "tons of user testing" to realize that your arms are going to start hurting after more than a few minutes of poking a laptop screen, let alone a desktop monitor.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Metro on Windows 8 is a desperation move... and people who feel desperate aren't necessarily the most clear-thinking.

--JorgeA

#429
Fredledingue

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My comments on PCWorld's article:

Windows 8 Release Preview Impressions

I apreciate the following improvements: Smaller memory footprint, More-efficient performance and Reduced disk-space requirement.

It's just sad that MS made these improvements only because the OS was designed to work on devices less powerful than PCs, not for a clever PC resource use.

When quiet a lot of poeple demanded that they brought these improvements when developing w7, it fell on deaf ears.
They barely fixed the most blatant bugs from Vista.
Steven Sinofsky even called the disk space requierement "mundain" [sic] at that time.

Also note that disk space requierement for the release preview is 20 Gb, 4 Gb more than Vista, 18 Gb more than XP.

HyperV integration:

This advance is crucial for enterprises and businesses that rely on VMs to run work apps in a world where people want to bring their own devices to work.

I don't think that serious poeple working professionaly will want to have an OS which launches Metro at every boot-up. They will never use w8. Period.
W8 is not a usable platform for advanced users who would make use of such things.

But the technological improvement still has the merit of being there.
Let's hope it can come in the shape of a w7 update.

Built-in SkyDrive integration: Cloud storage
Cool feature
. Cool on the surface. Yet, there are thousands of reasons not to use it.
Poeple should be warned that they may even not know that all their files are copied to a remote server not under their control, because free Cloud storage will become part of Windows.
Use it only if you assume that anybody in the world can look at every file present on your computer.
I doubt there is a single computer in the world that doesn't contain private enough material or business sensitive material that shouldn't be shared with commercial entities.
You can choose not to back up these files but that's precisely the files that need to be backed most often!

Improved multimonitor support: Hope so. According to some testers, it realy realy sucked a big deal last time they tried it.
Call it bug fix, please.

App Improvements
Now that becomes funny. "App Improvements" LOL!
They sort of forgot that existing apps for Windows PC are far more advanced and more various and offer far more choice than what comes with Metro.

Why offering new apps which still lack functionality [sic] while you already have the choice among thousands existing sotfwares, fruit of decades of developement?

The e-mail app:
OE, a 14 years old program and Windows Mail already offer access to multiple accounts and far more advanced options such as a spam filter which you can build yourself, if at least you take the pain to use POP and not a commercial online account.

If you are not using GMail, I don't see the point.
If you use GMail, then, yes, it's a cool interface for GMail and compatible mail services.
It address a need since more and more poeple make use of such services.
Unfotunately it's not as advanced as POP.

Music and Video:
They wrote it: It's a X-Box for PC.
Why having a PC if all you get is an X-Box at the end of the day?

It also helps you part with your money more easily, since it directs you to commercial music stores.
Some testors already said that it's a royal pain to find your music saved on your hard drive, that you constantly stumble on a purchase area.
Again: useless if you have no Zune Pass or similar.

The News, Finance, and Sports.
It's interresting that MS attempts to replace internet browsing, where you usualy find these informations, by a single pane where you get everything at a glance.
They forgot that everybody wants to choose their own source of information.
Not everybody is interrested in sport and finance.
Poeple like to choose the websites from which they recieve their informations from, according to their political affinities.

MS market analysts have no idea of the complexity of the PC user.

Photos
Here it's interresting that they mixed social media content and your local hard disc content.
Sounds cool, but like the e-mail app, it's a great idea to gather all online contents in one pane but I'd not want to mix it with my local drive content.
For me -and for most poeple- these are two distinct things.

Like with the Cloud, the PC is slowly becoming a space which is not supposed to be private anymore.
It's a view which will not shared by most PC users I'm afraid.

Contacts
Same as the mail app, it's a great idea to merge several social medias into one.
It's great if it remains one way, from the social media to you, it's less appealing if you know that it can go the other way. What are the garantees that you can't inadvertantly, in one click flush all you private and business contacts to a social media you have no control about whatsoever?
The idea IS great but here again, I wouldn't want to mix hard disc content and on-line rubbish.

Windows 8 Start Screen Improvements
(he means Metro but ok, let's call "Start Screen" if that makes them happier)

Microsoft supplied PCWorld with a modified Samsung Series 9 ultraportable laptop so that we could work with the Windows 8 Rlease Preview in an optimized environment. The key modification involves the touchpad, which is now capable of edge detection.

Here we are getting the full meaning of the Start Screen aka Metro: It's optimized for small sized laptop and lower.
IMO its great if you own such a device.
Unfortunately MS is decided to ship it pre-installed on new laptop no matter how big the screen is and even worse, thinks it can be installed on a desktop PC.

Needless to say that on "normal" computers with a large screen, a keyboard and a mouse, it's a total loss of functionality, information density and productivity.

Now poeple are supposed to learn how to dance with their mouse to reach indispensable functions, rendered invisible in W8. You have to remember which side or corner of the screen you must move your mouse to in order to do basic tasks, where once you had a button with a description on it.

It's totaly incomprehensible that MS decided to remove the Start Menu which everybody has been used to for decades.
The new Power User list doesn't come close, not even remotely to the normal Start Menu.
IMO the absence of Start Menu alone will scare away a good chunk of MS'consumers.

Internet Explorer 10 and Flash
This is finaly one of the best thing. Flash becoming increasingly used on the internet, it had to be integrated which means more compatibility and safety.

Conclusion:

Whether that improvement will be enough to make naysayers to change their minds is an open question,

I agree. ;)
_____________________


JorgeA

A veteran Microsoft observer gives the thumbs-down to Windows 8:

________________________

Excellent article... and very well written.

It's so funny, MS is going to cover themselves with ridicule.

;)

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#430
Tripredacus

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Internet Explorer 10 and Flash
This is finaly one of the best thing. Flash becoming increasingly used on the internet, it had to be integrated which means more compatibility and safety.

Conclusion:

Whether that improvement will be enough to make naysayers to change their minds is an open question,

I agree. ;)


I read something that may not make people happy regarding Flash in IE10.

http://www.theregist...ws_8_rc_review/

Perhaps the biggest change is that Adobe Flash is now baked into Internet Explorer 10, even on the Metro side which Microsoft said would be free of plugins. Technically this is still correct. Microsoft has worked with Adobe to get Flash distributed with IE 10 and updated via Windows Update. This will work on ARM as well as x86 devices.

There is a catch though: Flash support only applies to sites on a compatibility list distributed by Microsoft.

I found Flash worked well on major sites, but not elsewhere. This is intended as a compatibility feature, not for the long-term. Nevertheless, this will be a selling point for Microsoft against the iPad, although with many sites now making special allowances for Apple's Flash-free tablet in their multimedia content this is not the big deal it once was.

What is odd is that Microsoft has not done the same for Silverlight, its own multimedia and application plugin. This is particularly strange given the extensive Silverlight dependence in Microsoft's own products, such as the recently released System Center 2012 which used the plugin for most of its web management consoles. Visual Studio 2012 has a dedicated tool, LightSwitch, for Silverlight applications.


Emphasis mine.
1. Having a master control list for Flash supported websites kills it for me. I won't even bother with this. I can think of many places I end up going that uses Flash that I doubt would ever show up on that list. I'll stick with Mozilla or Chrome.

2. Typically I only use IE for MS websites, but if IE10 isn't going to support Silverlight, this could even be a problem. I'd imagine that you can't even go to Connect with IE10 then. I haven't tried it but I don't think I will try it either. :rolleyes:

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#431
Sysdll

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Most of the apps are complete junk anyway. They're often a plug for their services that most people don't want of (with a big emphasis on making money from them).

So it's like having an email spam folder right on the desktop. :(

#432
JorgeA

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So it's like having an email spam folder right on the desktop. :(

Great point -- I hadn't thought of it that way! When it comes to the apps on the Metro start screen, my own focus had been on the effect that all those blinking and auto-scrolling tiles might have on epileptics. ;)

Irrespective of that, when I power up my PC I want to ease into the environment -- I don't want to start getting bombarded by a dozen different squares clamoring for my attention all at once.

--JorgeA

#433
JorgeA

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Typically I only use IE for MS websites, but if IE10 isn't going to support Silverlight, this could even be a problem. I'd imagine that you can't even go to Connect with IE10 then. I haven't tried it but I don't think I will try it either. :rolleyes:

Huh, that would be weird (but not surprising anymore). Microsoft's own creation, not supported on its own websites? I think I'll try that and see what happens next time I boot up the RP. Would that be Metro IE10, or Desktop IE10, that's lacking Silverlight support?

--JorgeA

#434
JorgeA

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Ars Technica has published an insightful, evenhanded analysis of Windows 8's prospects on the business side:

Windows 8 could gain a foothold in businesses by coming in on tablets, which would theoretically combine the convenience of the tablet form factor with the Active Directory management features IT admins are used to on desktops and laptops. There are two problems with this: the first is that Windows RT, the ARM-enabled Windows 8 variant that is likely to ship on many Windows tablets, doesn't support Active Directory management in the first place. The second is that tablet and smartphone usage in businesses is increasingly dictated by the users themselves, not the IT Establishment.

We've covered most of this territory in our thread, but it's interesting to see our impressions backed up in the tech press.

--JorgeA

#435
Tripredacus

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Typically I only use IE for MS websites, but if IE10 isn't going to support Silverlight, this could even be a problem. I'd imagine that you can't even go to Connect with IE10 then. I haven't tried it but I don't think I will try it either. :rolleyes:

Huh, that would be weird (but not surprising anymore). Microsoft's own creation, not supported on its own websites? I think I'll try that and see what happens next time I boot up the RP. Would that be Metro IE10, or Desktop IE10, that's lacking Silverlight support?


I think the only one that really makes use of Silverlight is Connect, probably others. But there are even some MS sites that do not work properly with IE9! :angry:

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#436
Fredledingue

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Having a master control list for Flash supported websites kills it for me. I won't even bother with this. I can think of many places I end up going that uses Flash that I doubt would ever show up on that list. I'll stick with Mozilla or Chrome.

As I (positively) understood, the white list is only about allowing certain features.
I imagine that normal flash use with unintrusive games and videos will still work on every websites.
That only unsafe features will be disabled, save for websites on the white list.

It would be a suicide to totaly disable flash on every website save a few ones.
...But wait... Isn't MS commiting suicide already by covering the desktop with Metro? :dazed:

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#437
Tripredacus

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Does this Flash functionality in IE10 exist in the RP? I don't think I have it installed anymore to play with.

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#438
JorgeA

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It would be a suicide to totaly disable flash on every website save a few ones.
...But wait... Isn't MS commiting suicide already by covering the desktop with Metro? :dazed:

I went looking for a hara-kiri image to post here, but all the ones I found were either copyrighted or fairly gruesome...

--JorgeA

#439
jaclaz

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I went looking for a hara-kiri image to post here, but all the ones I found were either copyrighted or fairly gruesome...


Heck, it is a VERY gruesome practice! :ph34r:

Anyway, you may have better luck looking for "seppuku", here is a (rigorously copyrighted :w00t: ) nice T-shirt design that has NO blood in it:
http://everyjoe.com/...eppuku-t-shirt/

but I guess clay is allright :unsure:


jaclaz

#440
JorgeA

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jaclaz,

Thanks for putting that video up. It illustrates exactly what I wanted, as a comment to what Freledingue said.

Once again, you come through with a masterful search job! :thumbup

--JorgeA

#441
JorgeA

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News is coming out that Microsoft is giving in to developers' clamoring for a free desktop development platform in the wake of Windows 8.

@CoffeeFiend, @MagicAndre, @jaclaz among others: What do you think? Is this a hard-earned victory; too little too late; something better/worse?

--JorgeA

#442
JorgeA

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An incisive review of Win8 RP. The writer shows a wry sense of humor with his dubbing of the new OS as "Window 8" (singular), in honor of Metro.

Like so many others, he likes it on a phone or tablet, but not for a desktop PC:

But, to my shock, I could imagine myself using Window 8. I’m willing to admit the possibility that I led my desktop-oriented outlook affect my judgment the first time around, so that I didn’t see the benefits it would offer certain users. So I will actually deploy a quasi-mea culpa here and say I can even imagine myself buying a Window 8 device…

If it’s a tablet or a smartphone.

Unfortunately, Metro remains appalling and useless on any other kind of computer. Switch from your finger to a mouse and the intuitive, relatively natural nature of the interface evaporates.

And he provides an excellent retort to those who argue that it's not such a big deal to boot into Metro and then click to reach the Desktop:

It’s not so much a matter of the half-second inconvenience as it is a tacit disapproval [of] Microsoft requiring me to look at and deal with a user interface that is antithetical and detrimental to how and why I use computers. It’s the principle of the thing that bothers me now, and always has: Microsoft wants to own the tablet and phone market and is perfectly happy screwing over me, and millions of other users, to make it happen.

He goes on to report his revived interest in Linux in light of what Microsoft is doing to Windows, while reiterating that it's a fine OS for mobile devices. The author's bottom line echoes what Fredledlingue said a few posts up:

from where I sit, it seems like they’re still on a self-destruct mission, unaware of (or, worse, indifferent to) the vast potential damage they’re about to inflict on their user base — and themselves.

--JorgeA

#443
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Didn't see this posted yet. An article (a blog-like comment but without replies) ...

http://forums.thereg...uk/post/1430387

From someone identified as mdc claiming to be the responsible developer of the Longhorn UI. Very interesting propaganda piece really. I'll excerpt a bit of his/her rationalization in favor of the Win8 debacle ...

"The aim of the design is exactly the same as Aero was - to take the chrome away from the content, and allow the user to focus on what they're doing rather than unnecessary clutter. A perfect example of this is internet Explorer on Metro; in its default state, all you see is a webpage; chrome CAN be pulled up if the user requires, but is otherwise absent. The majority of Metro applications are like this - in fact it's part of the Metro UX specifications.

This has always been the way that computing has been going; customisation features have subtly been taken out of each successive version of Windows, as users have - on the whole - moved on from eye candy and instead focus on productivity. This isn't specific to the software sector; even social networking has experienced this shift - from the cluttered, flashing, marquee-laden MySpace profiles of 2003 to the clean, customization-free Facebook profiles of today.

Personally, I see Metro as a good thing; it allows me to do my work without distraction, and I'm just disappointed that I wasn't the one who did the design work for it this time around."


So you see, we the people really needed Microsoft to boost our productivity because we were distracted by eye candy.! Posted Image

As mentioned, this seems to be a locked post at TheRegister, no comments allowed. The fact that he doesn't sign the post makes it suspicious. But I do believe that patronizing arrogance as being true. They really couldn't be more tone deaf if they tried.

EDIT: okay, I see that this comment was in a thread called Windows 8: We kick the tyres on Redmond's new tablet wheels at TheRegister. The user called mdc has two comments there presently. I see that some comments have gotten deleted and I bet that these will too if he is official Microsoft. I saved a full copy. If the moderators would like, I can post them in full. Up to you folks.

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 09 June 2012 - 02:26 AM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#444
bphlpt

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The implication is that mdc is no longer with MS since he says:

...I've since moved into a different field entirely (photography) and therefore no longer have any input into the design process...


so I don't think the post will be deleted. It was an interesting point of view. If the mods don't object, and I don't see why they would, it might interest others to read mdc's posts here. However, they don't change my opinion of Metro, or Win8 in general.

Cheers and Regards

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#445
JorgeA

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This has always been the way that computing has been going; customisation features have subtly been taken out of each successive version of Windows, as users have - on the whole - moved on from eye candy and instead focus on productivity. This isn't specific to the software sector; even social networking has experienced this shift - from the cluttered, flashing, marquee-laden MySpace profiles of 2003 to the clean, customization-free Facebook profiles of today.

What a load of bull! I wonder if "mdc" can explain how it makes me MORE productive to have to click or swipe for every item of information relevant to my work or browsing, instead of simply having it visible. Or to have to click something in order then to bring up a menu, so that finally I can get to the command I need. And speaking of clutter: no, I don't clutter my mind with arcane keystroke combinations involving the Windows key. It is SO MUCH easier and faster to SEE IT. I have more important things to keep track of -- such as THE WORK I'M DOING.

I've never understood this obsession with interface simplicity. Simplicity makes things harder to do! But the truth is that for a long time we have had the CHOICE as individuals whether to use a simpler or a richer interface. We've had the choice to go full-screen in Internet Explorer since version 4, at least. But now the morons experts at Microsoft have decided that CHOICE IS BAD and we must all bow to the same god of (false) simplicity.

Next thing we hear, we'll find out that this supposed Longhorn developer who's now converted to Metro is designing colored wooden blocks for adults.

@CharlotteTheHarlot: Assuming that the mods OK it, it'd be great if you would post those deleted comments!

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 09 June 2012 - 08:46 AM.


#446
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...@CharlotteTheHarlot: Assuming that the mods OK it, it'd be great if you would post those deleted comments!...



The comments from mdc have not been deleted ... yet. There was just the fear that they might be.

Cheers and Regards

Posted Image


#447
Fredledingue

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Yes, it's incredible that some MS poeple can talk like this.
"Metro is increasing productivity"
The most hypocrite statement so far about w8, and contrary to EVERY comments by poeple who have tested it.

Taskbar, start menu, caption and resizable windows do increase productivity. Their absence reduces productivity.
These are things we need!

"It was always felt that the desktop was a clumsy way to bring content to the user"
Here again, from all who tested W8, Metro apps disapoint by their poverty of displayed content, empty areas, redundant frames...

MS doesn't seem to understand that desktop computers and normal size laptop computers are not touch-screen devices.
And they don't seem to understand neither that one can't have the same interface on both.

"Most of poeple rarely use more than two documents at the same time"
I'd like to see the datas backing that up! Everybody I observed at their computer were using at least 4 apps at the same time. One person I know has always 20 windows on the taskbar. When I asked her, "how can you work like this, close all that you don't need!" She replied that it was her way to work and that they were all useful.

That's precisely why Vista and w7 group all instances of a same app under a single taskbar icon.
Because poeple open multiple windows all the time, and the taskbar is always full.
But that invention was already counter productive because you don't see which windows are open nor how many.
It takes more time to look for them because you can't seen their caption on the taskbar.
I hate taskbar groups for that reason. But Metro is just a gigantic taskbar group where everything is under a monstruous screen-sized icon.

Resizing windows is also one of the most important feature for productivity that was kissed goodbye in Metro.
Want to do a copy-paste, compare two photos, use a calculator next to a text editor, drag and drop files...
How can we imagine a surface area where these won't be possible?

Why do MS thinks we will like all this regression?

:wot: :devil: :?:

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#448
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I am furious about the comments this "mdc" made at the Register. He's wrong and clueless about what he's talking about and he loses all credibility when he says he generally approves of Windows 8. Customization was never taken out until Windows XP which is why I continue to use that OS as a stanch opponent of dumbing down. The people who built and developed Windows have all left leaving monkeys in charge who don't know anything. Microsoft died the day Jim Allchin retired and Bill Gates left his daily responsibilities to monkey boy Ballmer. Sure there are some good folks with great technical talent still present but the marketing, management executives, program managers and user experience people are the most incompetent, clueless, arrogant morons who should be fired ASAP after Windows 8 bombs. Surely, 2 out of 3 failed Windows releases (Vista and 8) and the opposition XP still gives to Windows 7 ought to bring Gates and the top management back to their senses? :realmad:

Edited by xpclient, 09 June 2012 - 10:13 AM.

Impossible to run NT6 without third party fixes.


#449
CharlotteTheHarlot

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@CharlotteTheHarlot: Assuming that the mods OK it, it'd be great if you would post those deleted comments!


JorgeA,

The two posts (well 3 really) are still at the website. Just click on [http://forums.theregister.co.uk/user/58426/] to see them. It is a forum shortcut to that specific user's commenting history. It was just my speculation that they would end up being deleted eventually,

I was thinking of the strange case of the ex-Microsoftie working at Amazon who started talking on his blog which disappeared and then re-appeared with a password! Fixing Windows 8 Blog

For background Google ''what happened to fixing windows 8" ... Dvorak ... PC-World ... many more.

I'll bet there is a holy war going on up there in Redmond (Thurrott actually said as much). I just hope a few more of the good guys inside use the media outlets to feed the growing backlash. It really is unbelievable.

EDIT: fixed link

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 14 June 2012 - 01:06 PM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#450
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

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News is coming out that Microsoft is giving in to developers' clamoring for a free desktop development platform in the wake of Windows 8.

@CoffeeFiend, @MagicAndre, @jaclaz among others: What do you think? Is this a hard-earned victory; too little too late; something better/worse?

It shows that DevDiv actually listens to users and paying customers. Nobody wanted the old depressing everything-looks-the-same monochrome theme so they gave in on that. All-caps-everything is ridiculous, so they're adding a setting to disable it at least. It's way too soon to lose XP support, so it will come in a feature pack. Metro-only development in the express ed was a braindead move, so they brought back desktop development. Yes, we have to be pretty loud before it actually happens, but we're getting positive results on most of the big issues. If enough people complain, they do something about it. At least it's not much worse than the previous version anymore.

Unlike WinDiv which doesn't care about users or customers, nor how they use their computers. They're right and everybody else is wrong. Metro you will use, and you'll like it -- they've decided so. It doesn't matter if the interface is backwards and counterproductive. And of course they're too arrogant to give us any options. It's a lame and desperate attempt to use their desktop monopoly to sell a few tablets that's going to backfire.
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.




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