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Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


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#576
JorgeA

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The real data would show a ranking from most used to least used with the bulk of Windows accessories near the bottom and the Start Menu of course above them. To remove the Start Menu but not all other less-used items proves the arrogance and willingness to lie from Team B&S.

Wonderful analysis!

The folks at MS seem to be confusing "frequency" with "importance." It does not follow from the fact that I use something rarely, that I am better off (or even just as well off) without it.

In any case, if the idea is to eliminate functions that are being used less, then supercharging the Start Menu into an aggressive, in-your-face Start Screen that supposedly does the same unimportant thing is the OPPOSITE of what the number-crunching would call for. The whole explanation is simply incoherent, and reeks of after-the-fact rationalization.

Bottom line: now I have no idea whether MS removed the Start Menu because metrics showed that it was losing importance and therefore few would miss it (as they'd said before), or because (as the new line goes) metrics showed that it was losing importance and they were trying to salvage it. I don't give a hoot what the reason is -- JUST BRING BACK THE START MENU.

--JorgeA


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#577
jaclaz

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Meanwhile in other breaking news, Ford, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche have noted declining usage of the space-wasting included spare tire thanks to data collected from their Customer Experience Improvement Program. Spokesmen for the companies say that most users have never even touched the spare tire and many do not even know that it is there or could even find it if they wanted to. 'Our research indicates that we can vastly improve their fast and fluid experience by removing this useless legacy application'. No word if other auto manufacturers will follow suit. :D

JFYI, it is MANY years that Porsche removed spare tires from the 911 and boxster, 2005 if I recall correctly, replacing it with a "repair kit" :whistle: .
I have never met a 911 or boxster owner actually upset about it.
So, sorry to say so :(, but this time your "meanwhile" has a lesser effect than what was intended/expected.

Meanwhile, in Ireland:
Spoiler


jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 28 June 2012 - 12:05 PM.


#578
UltimateSilence

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I have a question regarding Shake, Peek, and Snap. What is the likelihood of those features remaining in RTM? I know they're still in the Release Preview, but with Microsoft's emphasis on Metro it makes me curious.

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#579
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Meanwhile in other breaking news, Ford, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche have noted declining usage of the space-wasting included spare tire thanks to data collected from their Customer Experience Improvement Program. Spokesmen for the companies say that most users have never even touched the spare tire and many do not even know that it is there or could even find it if they wanted to. 'Our research indicates that we can vastly improve their fast and fluid experience by removing this useless legacy application'. No word if other auto manufacturers will follow suit. :D

JFYI, it is MANY years that Porsche removed spare tires from the 911 and boxster, 2005 if I recall correctly, replacing it with a "repair kit" :whistle: .
I have never met a 911 or boxster owner actually upset about it.
So, sorry to say so :(, but this time your "meanwhile" has a lesser effect than what was intended/expected.


Well it depends.

If Porsche used data collected from a Customer Experience Improvement Program then it would seem to reinforce my humorous analogy. Right? :yes:

It would even be better if that Porsche repair kit was invisible and you had to move the pointer to the lower left hand corner of the windshield to make it appear. :lol: <--- (more humor!)

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 28 June 2012 - 04:42 PM.

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#580
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Windows 8 upgrade paths 'leaked', XP, Vista and 7 supported - TechSpot

Windows 8 upgrade path leaked, XP fans rejoice - NeoWin (Fanboys :wub: )

Microsoft Details Windows 8 Upgrade Plans - Tom's Hardware

The NeoWin article speculates about WinXP upgrading ...

"Finally, if you are one of the many people who still uses Windows XP, the good news is that you can upgrade to Windows 8. The bad news is that only personal data will be maintained when the upgrade is complete."


However the TechSpot article offers a slightly different take ...

Upgrading From ----------- Rumored Paths ------------------------- You Can Keep
Windows XP SP3 ........... Windows 8 ............................. Files, Apps
Windows Vista ............ Windows 8 ............................. Files
Windows Vsta SP1+ ........ Windows 8 ............................. Files, Apps
Windows 7 Starter ........ Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro .............. Files, Apps, Settings
Windows 7 Home Basic ..... Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro .............. Files, Apps, Settings
Windows 7 Home Premium ... Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro .............. Files, Apps, Settings
Windows 7 Professional ... Windows 8 Pro, Windows 8 Enterprise ... Files, Apps, Settings
Windows 7 Ultimate ....... Windows 8 Pro, (Enterprise?) .......... Files, Apps, Settings
Windows 7 Enterprise ..... Windows 8 Enterprise .................. Files, Apps, Settings


Regardless of what finally occurs, the fact remains that Microsoft once again is just phoning it in. It is must be too darn complicated for them to untangle the mess they made with the switch from \Documents and Settings to \Users, the strange Wow64 and System32 implementation choice, and all the registry and NTFS links they used as ductape to hold the thing together. LoL! To be honest, Win2k and WinXP are looking like pillars of stability and simplicity nowadays. (though IMHO I do feel they should have done \Users from the beginning. But that would have been too logical. These were the same kind of dumb decisions that gave us \Program Files with all the potential LFN problems instead of simply using \Programs which fit so nicely in 8 characters. ~sigh~)

EDIT: added link to Tom's Hardware coverage... and a typo.

Microsoft Windows 8 : it's like Windows 7, only better! (if by 'better' you mean suckier)


Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 28 June 2012 - 11:17 PM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#581
jaclaz

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Regardless of what finally occurs, the fact remains that Microsoft once again is just phoning it in. It is must be too darn complicated for them to untangle the mess they made with the switch from \Documents and Settings to \Users, the strange Wow64 and System32 implementation choice, and all the registry and NTFS links they used as ductape to hold the thing together. LoL! To be honest, Win2k and WinXP are looking like pillars of stability and simplicity nowadays. (though IMHO I do feel they should have done \Users from the beginning. But that would have been too logical. These were the same kind of dumb decisions that gave us \Program Files with all the potential LFN problems instead of simply using \Programs which fit so nicely in 8 characters. ~sigh~)

Well, the good news are that in Italian the "Program Files" are "Programmi", so at least *somehere* they did one thing right.

Actually - and just for the record - the "right" approach since many years, just after the invention of partitionable hard disks :w00t:, would have been to make by default a "System" partition and a "Data" partition/volume, and possibly a single directory in either volume with all the settings for the programs. Doing backups/restores and upgrading would have become - instead of a nightmare - a simple, everyday task (as it should be).

It seems like Porsche actually made a survey asking to their customers whether they preferred the small German repair kit and the tiny compressor coming with it or the solution originally designed by MS, of which I have a couple rare images of early tests ;):
Spoiler

and consensus - strangely enough - was almost entirely for the German design.

jaclaz

#582
UltimateSilence

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Windows Vista ............ Windows 8 ............................. Files


What gives? :unsure: Why single out Vista RTM individually from SP1+? It's modern...ish. :ph34r:

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#583
Tripredacus

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Windows Vista ............ Windows 8 ............................. Files


What gives? :unsure: Why single out Vista RTM individually from SP1+? It's modern...ish. :ph34r:


There must be something changed with SP1. We all know that SP1 works a whole lot better than RTM.
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#584
jaclaz

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There must be something changed with SP1. We all know that SP1 works a whole lot better than RTM.

.. which should be read - in absolute terms instead of comparative ones - as almost, but not quite, right ;)

jaclaz

#585
JorgeA

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Windows Vista ............ Windows 8 ............................. Files


What gives? :unsure: Why single out Vista RTM individually from SP1+? It's modern...ish. :ph34r:

Yeah, that caught my eye, too. Also was scratching my head over the fact that XP SP3 seems to have a fuller upgrade path than original Vista. :huh:

--JorgeA

#586
Tripredacus

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Part of the problem is that Microsoft accepts the stigma that people put on it. They say that the OS is insecure. Take a look at the known fact that Windows gets a lot of viruses from IE or Outlook Express (when it was around). And people point the finger at MS about getting all these viruses, even though their own practices were the cause of their problems. Nevertheless, MS takes the responsibility instead of attempting to inform their userbase. And this led to the UAC. There was no attempt to educate their users, so they put in a system that was designed to help protect Windows from the users.

Tripredacus,

This question may be OT, but what you wrote above caught my eye because I've been toying with the idea of switching to Linux if Microsoft persists in foisting Metro on users beyond Windows 8.

The question has to do with the relative security of Windows vs. Linux. Linux advocates like to say that their favorite OS is much more secure than Windows. Is that true, or just propaganda? Or perhaps "mainly true vs. mainly propaganda"? Seems to me that if the security problems attributed to Windows are actually the result of bad habits by users (as you suggested in the quote above), then maybe PC security wouldn't really improve even if there were a mass switch over to Linux. What do you tbhink?

--JorgeA


Relating to this point, Windows 8 more secure than Windows 7?
http://www.theregist.../win8_security/

My first answer would be NO. People are going to figure out Metro and how to bust through it. And my response to this:

"Overall I'd far rather write exploits against Win 7 than Win 8," Valasek explained.


Of course, because no one is going to buy it! :lol:
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#587
jaclaz

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Relating to this point, Windows 8 more secure than Windows 7?
http://www.theregist.../win8_security/

My first answer would be NO. People are going to figure out Metro and how to bust through it. And my response to this:

"Overall I'd far rather write exploits against Win 7 than Win 8," Valasek explained.


Of course, because no one is going to buy it! :lol:


... but of course till now we had two different kinds of "virus writers", those expert in/focused on "PC only" and those expert in/focused on "cellular/tablets" only.
Having a same platform may provide unexpted sinergies between the two groups :ph34r: .

jaclaz

#588
CharlotteTheHarlot

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In the above mentioned NeoWin article:

Microsoft killed the start button because it wasn't used

one of the commenters linked to a recent Dilbert cartoon ...

http://dilbert.com/2012-05-07/

Don't know if they actually had Windows 8 in mind but it sure fits right in to the discussion here. I'll try to embed it ...

Posted Image
( original )

Microsoft Windows 8 : That'll teach you for opting out of our spying Customer Experience Improvement Program



EDIT: updated image URL, and again

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 06 May 2013 - 08:07 AM.

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#589
CoffeeFiend

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Meanwhile in other breaking news, Ford, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche have noted declining usage of the space-wasting included spare tire thanks to data collected from their Customer Experience Improvement Program. Spokesmen for the companies say that most users have never even touched the spare tire and many do not even know that it is there or could even find it if they wanted to. 'Our research indicates that we can vastly improve their fast and fluid experience by removing this useless legacy application'. No word if other auto manufacturers will follow suit. :D

If MS designed a car with the same methodology as they did for this Metro garbage, here's what they'd say:

"Most of our clients hardly ever use the horn, emergency brake or the trunk, so they will be removed (not optional). As the driver hardly ever looks through the rear side windows, we might remove those by RTM too. Secondary controls (those which you're not actively using for 90% of the ride) such as turn signals, headlights, door handles and windshield wipers will be relocated in a compartment inside the glove box. And the stale and outdated controls which you actually use, like the steering wheel will be replaced with new shiny controls. For example, just slide your finger across the dash to turn. We noticed you also play a lot with the radio and AC controls, so we added animated "live" icons for it all over your windshield.

In other news, OEMs are getting pretty dissatisfied with MS' latest plans. Acer spoke against MS a few days ago and now seemingly HP just cancelled its plans for WinRT tablets due to Surface.

They're making everyone (their customers and their business partners) angry with Win8, Metro and Surface (and damaging their reputation), for a product that'll essentially be Zune v2 (dead in the water vs the iPad). They just can't fire Ballmer soon enough.

Great job Mr Ballmer, you just made this long time MS fanboy walk into an Apple store today. I now know for sure I'll be buying the kids an iPad this year (and our next mp3 players were practically guaranteed to be iPods too -- it's about the only decent player left). Now I'm just one step away from buying a MacBook... Your move!
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#590
JorgeA

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Very apt analogy, CoffeeFiend. :thumbup

In other news, OEMs are getting pretty dissatisfied with MS' latest plans. Acer spoke against MS a few days ago and now seemingly HP just cancelled its plans for WinRT tablets due to Surface.

They're making everyone (their customers and their business partners) angry with Win8, Metro and Surface (and damaging their reputation), for a product that'll essentially be Zune v2 (dead in the water vs the iPad). They just can't fire Ballmer soon enough.

This is the take I'd seen from Acer. Of course, in this case when evaluating the worth of the prediction one has to factor in the source, but obviously there's no question that MS is p*ssing off its partners by setting itself up in direct competition with them.

Great job Mr Ballmer, you just made this long time MS fanboy walk into an Apple store today. I now know for sure I'll be buying the kids an iPad this year (and our next mp3 players were practically guaranteed to be iPods too -- it's about the only decent player left). Now I'm just one step away from buying a MacBook... Your move!

Not just you! Even Bill G. seems now to be downplaying the value of a Microsoft tablet. Just as the Surface emerges (so to speak), the timing of these remarks is interesting. You'd think he'd be eager to promote them as much as possible.

And maybe you or others can clarify the following statement, and then comment on what it means:

the research firm Gartner predicts in a new press release today that the launch of Windows 8 later this year is the end of Microsoft's WinNT programming model and the beginning of the WinRT (Windows Runtime) model (not to be confused with Windows RT, otherwise known as WOA).

What's the difference betwen "WinRT" and "Windows RT"? I thought the former was simply an abbreviation of the latter.

Comments?

--JorgeA

#591
CoffeeFiend

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What's the difference betwen "WinRT" and "Windows RT"? I thought the former was simply an abbreviation of the latter.

The first was rather NT, not RT.

Then again, the death of NT means the death of Windows as far as I'm concerned.
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#592
JorgeA

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What's the difference betwen "WinRT" and "Windows RT"? I thought the former was simply an abbreviation of the latter.

The first was rather NT, not RT.

Then again, the death of NT means the death of Windows as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks, it sounded like they were talking about three different things there (WinNT, WinRT, and Windows RT). But then if we substitute WinNT for WinRT in the quoted sentence, it no longer makes any sense:
(original)

the launch of Windows 8 later this year is the end of Microsoft's WinNT programming model and the beginning of the WinRT (Windows Runtime) model (not to be confused with Windows RT, otherwise known as WOA).


(modified as per above)

the launch of Windows 8 later this year is the end of Microsoft's WinNT programming model and the beginning of the WinNT (Windows Runtime) model (not to be confused with Windows RT, otherwise known as WOA).


How should the original sentence read?

BTW, if Gartner is right (assuming we can untangle what they're saying), then it would refute all those Win8 fanboys who've been patronizingly reminding us that we'll still be able to use the Desktop if we want, for the foreseeable future. And it WOULD be the end of Windows.

--JorgeA

#593
CoffeeFiend

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Oh, I've mistaken which part you had tripped on.

the end of Microsoft's WinNT programming model => the death of Windows apps as we know it (Windows stops to be a useful OS or "ecosystem")
and the beginning of the WinRT (Windows Runtime) model => another set of programming APIs to use (for programmers to make Tablet apps, for a dead-on-arrival platform)
not to be confused with Windows RT, otherwise known as WOA => ghetto Windows ARM tablets (yes, naming things isn't their forte)
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#594
JorgeA

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the end of Microsoft's WinNT programming model => the death of Windows apps as we know it (Windows stops to be a useful OS or "ecosystem")
and the beginning of the WinRT (Windows Runtime) model => another set of programming APIs to use (for programmers to make Tablet apps, for a dead-on-arrival platform)
not to be confused with Windows RT, otherwise known as WOA => ghetto Windows ARM tablets (yes, naming things isn't their forte)

CoffeeFiend,

Thanks to your explanation I think I finally get what Gartner were saying, because there's a difference between WinRT and Windows RT. :wacko: I gather that WinRT is for the Intel-based tablets.

--JorgeA

EDIT: From Wikipedia --
Windows RT

Not to be confused with Windows Runtime.
[...]
"RT" is an abbreviation of Runtime,

:crazy:

Edited by JorgeA, 29 June 2012 - 10:57 PM.


#595
jaclaz

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(yes, naming things isn't their forte)

Definitely, and worse than that normally they are not even consequent with their naming, meaning that the SAME (often misnamed) thing is often called with different names.
The "XPRESS" or "Fast Compression" of WIM's is documented (with some wrong algorithms) as "Win2k3" which is of course very logical in their perverted minds, since the .wim format has NOT been used in conjunction with Windows Server 2003:
http://reboot.pro/5308/#entry41499

What I consider a "little pearl" is in this article:
http://windowssecret...with-windows-8/

In the demos, Microsoft made the point — repeatedly — that its Surface flip-down stand sounds like a “premium car door” when shut. As if I give a furry rodent’s posterior. How about some meat?


jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 30 June 2012 - 06:48 AM.


#596
xpclient

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My opinion on Surface/Surface Pro is: Okay-ish hardware, crappy OS software. I say okay-ish because the Pro model has Intel graphics. Intel graphics are utter s*** despite Ivy Bridge bringing a massive performance gain. If the Pro/x86 model had GeForce or Radeon class graphics, but then it would possibly have crappy battery life. Even if I get the Surface Pro for free (I get these things through promotions and contests), I will put Windows 7 on it, what matters to me is having a usable OS with long battery life. Having the joke of an OS with long battery life is useless. If I get just the Surface, well that will be a nice toy exclusively for playing casual games. :lol: I certainly won't pay for either. I will only pay for a super high-end desktop on which I will run a combination of my beloved XP x64 and not-so-beloved Windows 7 x64.

Edited by xpclient, 30 June 2012 - 09:15 AM.

Impossible to run NT6 without third party fixes.


#597
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These were the same kind of dumb decisions that gave us \Program Files with all the potential LFN problems instead of simply using \Programs which fit so nicely in 8 characters. ~sigh~)

Ehh... you mean the "progra~1" directory? LOL :D


but of course till now we had two different kinds of "virus writers", those expert in/focused on "PC only" and those expert in/focused on "cellular/tablets" only.

IMO there will be a huge incentive to hack Metro since it's the perfect platform to display adds.

Metro is a "Commercial Window", every webshop will want to have their tile on your "Start Screen".
It will be a fight to who will best at it.
Big brands can pay MS directly and get their brand logo on OEM versions of W8's Metro. Smaller fishes will have to rely on russian hackers.

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#598
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:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
Posted Image

#599
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ1oPDtdhFo

:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup

That was great!

Also, this is pretty much spot-on:
Posted Image
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#600
JorgeA

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Also, this is pretty much spot-on:

The video was fantastic, but I loved that Metro screen, too! Having a hard time picking out my "favorite" tile. ;)

Speaking of Metro, there is a fabulous short UI analysis in the comments section on this page. Scroll down to the comment by "Boe Dillard." Here's the bottom line:

I'm stunned MS never had a psychologist review the Metro interface. To many it is just a sea of tiles as it isn't well organized according to the way people perceive data. Some people can instantly tell you what number 280000000 represents but for others, putting in commas to 178,000,000 makes it much more readable - as the heirarchical nature of the start menu brings order for some of us. To me, the tile interface is about as pleasant as trying to quickly find the 8 of clubs in a deck of cards that has been tossed on the floor.

:thumbup

Just occurred to me -- the Metro start screen doesn't provide a "recent programs" list like the Vista/Win7 Start Menu, does it? If so, score another one against the Metro start screen. Sometimes you have to start using a certain program for a while (like tax software :} ) and the listing bubbles up to that auto list, so that you only need to look it up a couple of times. In Metro, for equally quick access it looks like I'd have to manually move the program to the first screenful, and then move it back offscreen when I was done using the program for the foreseeable future (assuming that I knew when I'd no longer be needing it).

--JorgeA




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