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Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


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#726
Tripredacus

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Simon would be a good name for Vista... maybe. Windows 8 is definately a Rubix Cube!
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#727
jaclaz

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Simon would be a good name for Vista... maybe. Windows 8 is definately a Rubix Cube!

NO. :no:
Rubix cube is an INTELLIGENT device.

jaclaz

#728
tomasz86

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Windows 8 has already leaked to the Internet... :whistle:

http://www.theverge....ak-enterprise-n
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Unofficial Service Pack 5.2 for MS Windows 2000 <- use this topic if you need help with UURollup, Update Rollup 2 and other unofficial packages

#729
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Windows 8 has already leaked to the Internet... :whistle:

Yep, it did. (I didn't want to link to it because I don't see how it would pass forum rules though). It is the "N" version (European release sans WMP) and it is the corporate Enterprise volume license edition at that.

More importantly to me, the questions I had above (were there any concessions from Redmond to the overwhelming criticism of the death of the Start Menu and Aero Glass effects) appear to be answered. NO!

There is a video walkthrough on YouTube (mentioned at NeoWin) that does not appear to violate any rules (Mods agree? If not I'll delete it).

First Look: Windows 8 Enterprise N RTM - Stock Apps + Desktop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9akf69l4A84

The video runs through most of the features and a few apps and the 'improved' desktop is clearly visible at 1:23 in its new glassless Aero form. No thanks Microsoft. I can turn Aero off if I want to on Vista/7 without your help. No sale. The Start Menu is still missing, exactly the same as the consumer betas. Word on the street also is that Tihiy's Explorer transplant was somehow blocked (for now). I haven't seen any comments on the Start Menu replacements yet. We shall find out soon I suspect. Congratulations Microsoft, you have re-defined the word deaf. And in the process you have turned yourself into IBM.

Microsoft Windows 8 : RTM ( Regretting This Milestone )


... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#730
CoffeeFiend

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European release sans WMP

If anything, the EU shouldn't force them to help other people to chose another browser or media player (it's easy enough to install and use something else). They should rather force MS to allow disabling their retarded tablet/smartphone UI (which you can't actually disable). They're effectively making use of that desktop OS monopoly to try to get traction in the tablet & phone market. You'd think that would be a huge no-no.

I'd sooner upgrade to Vista than run Win8.

In other news, I am now the owner of a Mac Mini :) It was cheap enough, even if just for the learning experience (and getting to try Xcode 4 and Objective C). It'll definitely take some time getting used to but I can already see a few things it does better than Windows.
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#731
CharlotteTheHarlot

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If anything, the EU shouldn't force them to help other people to chose another browser or media player (it's easy enough to install and use something else).

Yep. The Netscape fiasco is still biting us in the butt. When Barksdale (Netscape honcho) was crying before Congress in 1998 or so, I just knew something bad was gonna happen. Enter the DoJ and the antitrust case. The smart people got out of MSFT and other stocks before the big one happened in Spring 2000 when the final decision was announced (United States v. Microsoft). That was over two years of uncertainty, rumors and worries on CNBC, in the WSJ and others. Finally, pop went MSFT, pop went NASDAQ and pop went the whole DotCom bubble. 'Pop' isn't the right word here, CRASH is. Ironically, it would be fun to blame Ballmer who was promoted around this time ( hehe, plot MSFT on a chart under his tenure :lol: ), but in reality it was the Justice Department and Congress that apparently had nothing better to do but harass Microsoft just for kicks.

Spoiler

BTW, this was the one time that an automobile analogy fit like a glove: ... telling Microsoft to NOT include a web browser in Windows is like telling Ford to NOT include a radio in a car. The radio can easily be removed, replaced, upgraded or ignored. Third party aftermarket radios thrive regardless. But was anybody listening to logic? Heck no. IMHO, most of the crash of 2000-2003 can be traced to the 1998-2000 Microsoft case, the apprehension around it and the fresh memory of AT&T and IBM. But the worst part of it all is that the whole case was over nothing. There were other things to look at (I think the OEM licensing and effective lockout of alternate OS is more suspicious) but this one was a real dog and counter-productive. It set the wrong precedent, made its way actoss the pond to Europe, creating the browser ballot and WMP-less versions. Both of these things exemplify utter stupidity, while ignoring other really possible monopolistic practices. Maybe Metro is their payback to all of us.


They should rather force MS to allow disabling their retarded tablet/smartphone UI (which you can't actually disable). They're effectively making use of that desktop OS monopoly to try to get traction in the tablet & phone market. You'd think that would be a huge no-no.

Can you just imagine the Fanboy heads exploding! But I absolutely fully agree. Compared to the Netscape madness, I think this one has got legs. Attempting to convert the wider Windows desktop base to their walled garden really disgusts me because this is not their private customer base at all. Most of these people had no choice in using Windows and didn't ask to be in this game at all. At the very minimum it is immoral and unethical. And it is wrong.

Even though I couldn't care less about Windows 8, I have enough Windows licenses to last a lifetime (and collecting more retired computers all the time) but it would be sweet to see Microsoft backtrack on the Start Menu and Aero and the resultant meltdowns of the Generation X-Box fanboy population. They will meltdown even if only a choice of using it is offered (as it should be). That's how arrogant some of the Windows base has become. I don't know how it happened, how these kids became blind to freedom and choice, but it has happened, they have become Apple fanboys or worse.

Microsoft Windows 8 : RTM ( Rationalizing Telemetry Madness )


EDIT: updated image URL, and again

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 06 May 2013 - 06:26 PM.

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#732
jaclaz

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BTW, this was the one time that an automobile analogy fit like a glove: ... telling Microsoft to NOT include a web browser in Windows is like telling Ford to NOT include a radio in a car.
The radio can easily be removed, replaced, upgraded or ignored.

Unless it is connected to other car electronic subsystems.... :whistle:
Imagine that the cruise control NEEDS the original radio to be there.
Or, more exactly, imagine that Mr. Ford affirms that you have to have the original radio because otherwise the cruise control that you set at 55 Mph may increase actual speed of the car at a 2 Mph/minute rate while the speed indicators remains fixed to 55.

1/2 to 3/4 of the issues have been because the MS guys attempted for years to convince people that IE was an essential part of the OS and that could not be removed.
What do you think fdv :thumbup did ? :unsure:
He simply called the bluff! :yes:

What the EU did on the IE case, was the same, after the WMP fines that actually led to the N version:
http://en.wikipedia....ompetition_case
Here:
http://europa.eu/rap...&guiLanguage=en
MS was never "punished", nor actually "judged" for the integration of IE, the EU simply announced that they wanted to have a deep look at it, and MS decided to make WIndows 7 E.

Background

A Statement of Objections is a formal step in Commission antitrust investigations in which the Commission informs the parties concerned in writing of the objections raised against them. The addressee of a Statement of Objections can reply in writing to the Statement of Objections, setting out all facts known to it which are relevant to its defence against the objections raised by the Commission. The party may also request an oral hearing to present its comments on the case.

The Commission may then take a decision on whether conduct addressed in the Statement of Objections is compatible or not with the EC Treaty’s antitrust rules. Sending a Statement of Objections does not prejudge the final outcome of the procedure.


In other words you are confusing the N version (Windows Media Player related and for which MS was condemned/fined) with the E version (Internet Explorer or more generally "browser" related for which MS changed plans without having been condemned/fined).
See also:
http://news.cnet.com...0262630-56.html


jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 04 August 2012 - 07:28 AM.


#733
JorgeA

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BTW, this was the one time that an automobile analogy fit like a glove: ... telling Microsoft to NOT include a web browser in Windows is like telling Ford to NOT include a radio in a car. The radio can easily be removed, replaced, upgraded or ignored. Third party aftermarket radios thrive regardless. But was anybody listening to logic? Heck no.

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/155290-windows-8-deeper-impressions/page__st__660__p__1004694#entry1004694 :

The automotive analogy to Windows goes back a long way. I remember back in, what, 1995/96, during the antitrust litigation over IE vs. Netscape, Bill Gates testified that the browser was an integral part of the OS, and that splitting it from the OS was like taking the engine out of the car. I thought at the time (and would be surprised if somebody didn't say), that the browser was actually more like the car radio -- something to receive information from the rest of the world while the machine (the car, the OS) is going. So, to me, Bill was saying that he had designed a car that wouldn't run if you took out the radio... :huh:

--JorgeA


Edited by JorgeA, 04 August 2012 - 09:05 AM.


#734
CoffeeFiend

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Many well known developers spoke against it recently, including key people from Valve (Gabe Newell), Blizzard (Rob Pardo) and Sony Online Entertainment (John Smedley)

John Carmack from id software (Doom) gave his thoughts on it yesterday too. Seemingly he doesn't care too much for it either.
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#735
JorgeA

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On day one of the Windows 8 RTM comes signs of trouble in paradise ...

Is 'Metro' now a banned word at Microsoft? ( ZdNet )
[...]

My heart jumped when I first saw the list of headlines! :thumbup

And then I read through some of the articles, and realized that it was only the Metro name that's being eliminated... :}

--JorgeA

#736
JorgeA

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More importantly to me, the questions I had above (were there any concessions from Redmond to the overwhelming criticism of the death of the Start Menu and Aero Glass effects) appear to be answered. NO!

Fanboy Central has an article where the writer and a pack of groupies gloat over the fact that most elements of Aero still remain in Windows 8. Most elements --- except for the most distinctive one, which is the transparent glass border around windows.

--JorgeA

#737
JorgeA

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Analyst: Microsoft Surface is the new Zune

...Tim Coulling, from leading technology market analysts Canalys, doesn’t think that Microsoft’s efforts will pay off. “The information available to date suggests the prices of both [the Windows RT Surface and Windows 8 Surface Pro tablets] will be too high to capture significant market share, and a direct sales approach will prove inadequate,” he explained, a reference to Microsoft’s plans to only sell the devices via its website and physical Microsoft Stores.

Worse still, Canalys believes that Surface will “have a similar impact on the PC industry as Zune did in portable music players”; despite being on sale for years, Microsoft’s Zune music players failed to sell in any great volumes, while Apple’s iPod went on to claim much of the market.


So the Metro UI failed in the Zune, in the Windows Phone, and now may well fail in the tablet market too. O Microsoft wisemen and fanboys, tell me again why it's such a great idea to graft it onto the Windows OS?

--JorgeA

#738
CoffeeFiend

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realized that it was only the Metro name that's being eliminated... :}

Indeed...

Analyst: Microsoft Surface is the new Zune

All I feel like saying is "duh!". Of course it'll fail... All it'll manage is make the other Win RT tablets seem even less attractive, and that's quite a feat in itself.

MS managed to repeatedly fail in the mobile world (WM, Zune, Kin, WP, ...) when it's a market with huge growth, and that, with devices that had a very similar interface. In fact, their one and only non-failure (if you can call it that) on the hardware side besides the usual keyboards & mice is the Xbox. And that's because they're selling the hardware at a loss, and that they sunk over 30 billions into it (which they might never recoup -- they're basically already due for a new design) and consumers have still been plagued with the RROD. You also get to pay for online gaming unlike all other consoles, the dashboard also has ads, and there's not that many exclusive titles either. Nevermind that the Wii clearly outsold it, and that they're *barely* ahead of the latecomer and hard-to-code-for PS3. Now, add to that the usual poor launch, like missing the back to school period with Win8. Or the lack of the Apple "cool factor". The unavoidable x86/ARM confusion in customers. The people stuck with a touch UI on their desktops who will quickly learn to hate everything Metro (or whatever you're supposed to call it now) which is already abundantly clear... There's simply no way it's not going to be a huge flop.
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#739
CharlotteTheHarlot

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In other words you are confusing the N version (Windows Media Player related and for which MS was condemned/fined) with the E version (Internet Explorer or more generally "browser" related for which MS changed plans without having been condemned/fined).

No confusion, I was just in a hurry writing that comment. I am aware of the several different versions but of course have never had reason nor inclination to get copies of them.

Just to clarify what I meant ... the DoJ antitrust case set a bad precedent, paving the way for these current EU versions (and whatever more to come). My point is that the precedent was bad exactly because it was over a trivial matter and consequently all further manifestations derived from it will also be trivial. That's my point. The 800 pound gorilla is in fact antitrust, not the trivial anti-competitive practices of bundling a browser. Thanks to the DoJ, that 800 pound gorilla was left free to wreak havoc because the DoJ wasted their ammo shooting at phantoms. A conspiracy theorist might even believe that Microsoft setup the MSIE vs Netscape fiasco just to have the government waste time pursuing it all the while they were busy with backroom deals, strong-arming Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq into exclusive deals, cementing the billion user base, setting up the current takeover attempt with a walled garden. (I don't subscribe to this setup conspiracy btw, but have strong reservations and suspicions about those backroom deals).

Amazingly, it all could have been much, much worse. After the 2000 judgment, I fully expected each and every free part of Windows to be challenged and eventually removed by every 3rd party software company. Calculator, Defrag, Notepad, Outlook Express, the list is endless. Then we would be left with DOS with a GUI. Needless to say, even the old traditional DOS would not survive under these circumstances since at least half of the internal and external commands could be challenged! For some reason only MSIE and WMP have been successfully targeted, but it really could have been the entire thing.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#740
dencorso

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In any case, the best replacemeny for the name "Metro" ought to be the prophetic "Fail'll" or "Failwill", or even "Fail-0"...

#741
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Fanboy Central has an article where the writer and a pack of groupies gloat over the fact that most elements of Aero still remain in Windows 8. Most elements --- except for the most distinctive one, which is the transparent glass border around windows.

These are exactly the kids I am talking about. Somehow when they were born or hatched they were missing the gene that respects choice. I read through that thread and I am still amazed at the obfuscation: 'Aero is still there crybabies, it's the same!'. No it is not the same, and we never meant simply 'Aero'. Duh. Some of them in other threads are saying Metro was really just a codename, nothing else happened. But what's the point of arguing, if they cannot even fathom the concept of choice and the individual private desktop customization that helped made Windows what is, arguing is pointless. They are sheep. Since it is a forum that apparently includes 10-year olds or younger, it might be considered child-abuse just challenging their notions. Neobond (Steven Parker) knows this but is just fine with having Neowin drift into irrelevancy as long as he gets click counts. More troubling to me is that TechSpot, a partner site, also shows signs of fanboyism. It must be contagious!

Ironically Stardock has a substantial stake in Neowin. :lol:

Stardock involvement with Neowin FAQ

I really admire Stardock and everything since I first tried Windows Blinds. They always seem to create stuff that I am looking for. Yet they still manage catch a lot of grief over there. Weird. Some people think Neowin is just over-correcting by lurching to the other side after being burned by Microsoft ...

Cnet: Microsoft speaks, [Neowin] site goes dark

We'll probably never know unless Neobond 'fesses up. For now he just links to that Cnet page when asked.

Microsoft Windows 8 : RTM ( Revising The Meme )


... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#742
CoffeeFiend

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Those are the same people that own a Windows Phone, a brown Zune with a Zune pass, who will buy a Surface on day one, and that praised Vista as the 2nd coming of Ballmer (their idea of a deity). And a handful of people that have no need for a computer and just want a tablet instead. And I'll say it: astroturfers and paid shills.

Unfortunately for MS, that tiny minority of the population won't make any statistically relevant change in sales figures.

Edit: Windows Server 2012 has also been leaked, and non-N versions of Win 8 too.
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#743
JorgeA

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Another successful software creator weighs in against Windows 8:

If Microsoft decides to lock down Windows 8, it would be very, very bad for Indie games and competition in general. If we can keep open platforms around, there's going to be a lot of very interesting games in ten years, mixed in with the huge AAA games that we all love.

Any chance that the PC gaming community will help to pressure MS into relenting on its march toward Metrofying Windows and demanding a piece of the action via the Windows Store?

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 05 August 2012 - 12:08 PM.


#744
MagicAndre1981

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the RTM is so ugly. The 5 new lockscreens are ugly

Attached File  Win8_RTM_LockScreen.png   270.08KB   11 downloads

and the new options to select the wallpapers are also ugly:

Attached File  Win8_RTM_Metro_background.png   143.39KB   10 downloads

which doesn't look nice if you use them

Attached File  Win8_RTM_Metro.jpg   249.34KB   14 downloads

You should really change the topic to "Deeper depressions". Windows 8 really has the worst and most ugly UI ever made ...

Edited by MagicAndre1981, 06 August 2012 - 11:50 AM.

Posted Image

#745
MagicAndre1981

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and the desktop without Aero Glass is also ugly :no:

Attached File  Win8_RTM_desktop.png   147.29KB   19 downloads

But the strange thing is, that Aero Glass is stil used, when you activate Aero Peek and the licence properties for Aero Glass are also stil present. So now we need a way to activate full Aero Glass Support gain, not this ugly workaroundwith the high contrast theme which activates an ugly Aero :(
Posted Image

#746
CharlotteTheHarlot

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and the desktop without Aero Glass is also ugly :no:

But the strange thing is, that Aero Glass is stil used, when you activate Aero Peek and the licence properties for Aero Glass are also stil present. So now we need a way to activate full Aero Glass Support gain, not this ugly workaroundwith the high contrast theme which activates an ugly Aero :(

Agreed. It completely negates the most visible visual advancement out of Microsoft in years, I think the last one of note was msstyles for WinXP. They could have left Aero glass in and let it be handled by the visual settings selector ('set for best performance' or 'best appearance') which was the entire purpose of that dialog!

Anyway, those pictures are with Explorer.exe from RTM, but any images using the Tihiy mod using Explorer.exe from Win7, or possibly one of the three Win8 betas?

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#747
CoffeeFiend

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You should really change the topic to "Deeper depressions". Windows 8 really has the worst and most ugly UI ever made ...

For a while I was thinking about "derper impressions", but yeah. Just like you said.
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#748
JorgeA

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OK, here's an interesting visual illustration of how great an "advance" Microsoft has made with Windows 8.

First, a screenshot of Windows 1.0:

Posted Image

And now, a screenshot of the "modern" Windows 8:

Posted Image

Note the similarity of the two in terms of the flatness of the look. Even Windows 3.1 had visual "depth" elements in the buttons!

In what sense can the Windows 8 look be considered an advance? Vista and even Windows 7 are leagues ahead of Win8 in visual sophistication.

--JorgeA

#749
Joseph_sw

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probably a deliberate attempts of desktop's ugly-fication,
perhaps to achieve something like: "oh look, the metro part actually look better" or similar crappy-mindset like that.

of course, if the W8 desktop were beautiful that mean less incentive to switch/use to W8' Metro/Tiles.

I believe MS knew transition to metro will even harder, if they dont' make anything non-metro more-worse than before.

#750
JorgeA

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probably a deliberate attempts of desktop's ugly-fication,
perhaps to achieve something like: "oh look, the metro part actually look better" or similar crappy-mindset like that.

of course, if the W8 desktop were beautiful that mean less incentive to switch/use to W8' Metro/Tiles.

I believe MS knew transition to metro will even harder, if they dont' make anything non-metro more-worse than before.

Wow, if that's their strategy, it would be remarkable for its sneakiness. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this did enter into their thinking (even if it wasn't the main reason for degrading the looks of the windows).

BTW, in addition to the flatness, note another similarity between Win1 and Win8 -- the squared-off corners.

--JorgeA




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