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Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


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#801
Agorima

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This Windows will be an huge failure. I bet that will reach only the 15% of the operating systems market before Windows 9, less than Vista in the same lifetime.
Until Windows Server 2003 they were doing the right things. From the Longhorn Milestones, the developers began to screw up the OS, and they gave to the world an over-bloated Vista. With SP2 the OS runs better, but the operating systems after Server 2003 never reached the level of performance of XP.

Nowadays most computers are screwed up with Windows 7. After some time the new computers become slower because of the OS.
The things are far worse than six years ago. Sooner, if this Sesame Street edition became a success, we'll say goodbye to the personalization of the OS.

I hope that Apple and Windows 8 will fail onto the water.
The first because for me is the ruin of information technology, with the useless iPhone and iPad.
The second because the Micro$oft began to impose that "modern" interface.

P.S.:What the hell is this new Micro$oft logo?
Every children can do those squares on Paint.
I miss the old "flag" of Windows 9x and 2000.

Edited by Agorima, 24 August 2012 - 05:04 PM.



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#802
jaclaz

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Every children can do those squares on Paint.

Naah, every children WAS able to do those squares in Paint, from now on a child will need to use Fresh Paint ;):
http://www.msfn.org/...ost__p__1008425

jaclaz

#803
CharlotteTheHarlot

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It is strange how they didn't suggest the readers of the page to sit down:



jaclaz

Posted Image You pretty much owe me a whole room of new monitors and keyboards now! :lol:

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#804
jaclaz

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OT :ph34r: but actually serious matters:
http://www.nytimes.c...uit-magnet.html
http://www.nytimes.c...al.html?_r=1
http://www.washingto...87ad_story.html

Without entering at all in the discussion about who is right or who is wrong, I like the statement by Samsung :
http://edition.cnn.c...dict/?hpt=hp_t3

Samsung said the verdict should be viewed "as a loss for the American consumer."

"It will lead to fewer choices, less innovation, and potentially higher prices," the company said in a written statement. "It is unfortunate that patent law can be manipulated to give one company a monopoly over rectangles with rounded corners, or technology that is being improved every day by Samsung and other companies.

"Consumers have the right to choices, and they know what they are buying when they purchase Samsung products. This is not the final word in this case or in battles being waged in courts and tribunals around the world, some of which have already rejected many of Apple's claims. Samsung will continue to innovate and offer choices for the consumer."


I am curious to see what will happen when the Surface hits the market:
Posted Image
Posted Image


I would call it a brand new usage paradigm, had I not been a (BTW very satisfied) user of ....

Spoiler


Edit: corrected the date :blushing: it was year 1993, I presume that 95% percent of the "intended users target" wasn't even born at the time :w00t:

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 26 August 2012 - 02:39 AM.


#805
CharlotteTheHarlot

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OT :ph34r: but actually serious matters:

Very serious matters. Well if I were Samsung, I'd raise the cash for that billion dollar fine by re-pricing the parts they produce for Apple. Let Apple pay themselves.

I don't know, I find it all very troubling. First we have both Jobs and then Ballmer on record spouting maniacal hatred at Google who they see as an upstart stepping onto their turf (arrogant monopolists!). Then we find out about a long-standing secret non-aggression pact between Microsoft and Apple (instead of planning on dividing Poland are they dividing the entire world?). Now we see another crazy court case go in Apple's favor. And somewhere today there was a story of a Microsoft executive gloating about the verdict saying it will help the WP.

My own feeling is that there is collusion going on. They both better watch it too, governments are never more trigger happy than when they need money, and they all REALLY need money these days. Microsoft and Apple sure look they are throwing their weight around. If, or when they fall it ain't gonna be pretty.

P.S. The Surface vs Concerto is an amazing comparison, and fits right in to the recycle paradigm. We're really gonna have to pull all these comparisons together. What a great find :thumbup How did you stumble upon it? I can't remember ever seeing that Compaq.

Spoiler

jaclaz


EDIT: typos

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot, 25 August 2012 - 12:08 PM.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#806
jaclaz

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How did you stumble upon it? I can't remember ever seeing that Compaq.

And you weren't paying (much) attention :whistle: :
http://www.msfn.org/...ns/page__st__64

Actually it was the second item that contributed to the formulation of Jaclaz's Laptop Law:

Every laptop Jaclaz has ever bought and will ever buy had, has and will have a cost of around € 2,000.00 :w00t: :ph34r:

yet to be proved wrong....

It was IMNSHO one of the greatest little PC's ever made, don't be fooled by the picture, the real one ran DOS 6.20 or 6.22 and Windows 3.1 (actually Windows for Pen computing):
http://en.wikipedia....Compaq_Concerto

Mine was a 33 Mhz 486 Dx, with 8 Mb of Ram (default was 4 Mb) and if I recall correctly a 120 Mb hard disk and believe me it was fast and smooth.
I had Microsoft Word 6 and, much more than that, EXCEL 4.0 (and later 5), and later Borland Quattro (which I had to use for some file format interchange reasons) and - drums rolling - MS Project 1.0!
And then MS Access 1.0 which was thrown away in no time and replaced by Borland Paradox for Windows.....
It had a floppy, two PCMCIA, serial, parallel and two PS/2 sockets, one for the (detachable) keyboard and one for the (optional) external mouse.
I bought it specifically to carry it with me abroad, and I had an external 14.4 K modem/fax and Winfax, I remember that sending or receiving a 1.44 Mb floppy image took around 15 minutes, but I was "connected" and could send and receive faxes!
The pen was WAY more functonal than any trackball/trackpad I ever used, and there was really no need of a "real mouse", and also the keyboard though "small" was not at all "bad", being detachable you could (besides using the PC as "pure Pen Tablet") also have a decent distance between the keyboard and the screen, like in:
http://criggie.org.n...to/mvc-268f.jpg
At the time Compaq was one among the leaders, if not "the" leader, in providing excellent products, both laptop (mainstream was the Contura) and desktop.
The Concerto was a breakthrough in design and usability, and it was most probably abandoned because it was expensive, but also because it was tooo much ahead of it's time.

Guys sorry for the OT :blushing: but the Concerto fully deserved an elegy, may it R.I.P. :thumbup .

jaclaz

#807
Tripredacus

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I did get one of those error screens the other day when I was trying to install the Metro Skip Suite. I figured that SmartSreen Filter was checking some sort of built-in list of known/approved applications (in the same model as a virus definition list). Never occurred to me that it might actually be "phoning home."

--JorgeA


Let's hope the HOSTS file still works.
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#808
CharlotteTheHarlot

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And you weren't paying (much) attention :whistle: :
http://www.msfn.org/...ns/page__st__64

There was a First Impressions thread? Shoot, I missed it.

Off-topic, but for a good laugh ...

Steven Sinofsky caught reading the "Deeper Impressions" thread at MSFN! ( NeoWin ) okay, I made up the title!

Spoiler

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#809
jaclaz

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Off-topic, but for a good laugh ...

Steven Sinofsky caught reading the "Deeper Impressions" thread at MSFN! ( NeoWin ) okay, I made up the title!


We are not (much ;)) amused. :rolleyes:

I mean, reality is already so fun that there is no need to make a fake to have anyway a good laugh :unsure: .

http://www.i-program...ve-ballmer.html

The final enticement is bizarre to say the least....

An opportunity for a small group of Launch Publishers to win an opportunity to meet Microsoft CEO, Steve Ballmer, when he visits the UK later this year


Now, I do respect Mr. Ballmer, and his capabilities and drive, no matter if he took, takes and will take right or wrong decisions, but I strongly doubt anyone in his right mind could see meeting him as a luring prize in a raffle :w00t: :ph34r: .
(unless you are a fanboy, of course)

jaclaz

P.S.: On OT news, the war :ph34r: is just beginning :
http://www.appleinsi...import_ban.html
http://www.foxbusine...ispute-back-to/

Edited by jaclaz, 26 August 2012 - 06:00 AM.


#810
JorgeA

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Off-topic, but for a good laugh ...

Steven Sinofsky caught reading the "Deeper Impressions" thread at MSFN! ( NeoWin ) okay, I made up the title!

Very funny, the spoiler captures all the cliches in one neat package.

Now as for pure dazzling beauty (yes, in the eye of THIS beholder), behold this.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 26 August 2012 - 10:06 AM.


#811
JorgeA

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P.S.: On OT news, the war :ph34r: is just beginning :
http://www.appleinsi...import_ban.html
http://www.foxbusine...ispute-back-to/

This is getting ridiculous. Who first devised the tablet form factor, or the concept of a touch screen? Sure wasn't Apple. Maybe whoever did can sink their legal fangs into Apple, just as Apple is doing to most everybody else.

--JorgeA

#812
Agorima

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Anyone read these articles? Not only Windows 8 mess up your current installation, but seems it is spying the customers.

http://gizmodo.com/5...t-very-securely
http://www.withinwin...rtscreen-scare/

Edited by Agorima, 26 August 2012 - 10:55 AM.


#813
jaclaz

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Anyone read these articles? Not only Windows 8 mess up your current installation, but seems it is spying the customers.

http://gizmodo.com/5...t-very-securely
http://www.withinwin...rtscreen-scare/

See post #790
http://www.msfn.org/...ost__p__1008610
up to #800 in this same thread... :whistle:

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 26 August 2012 - 12:31 PM.


#814
JorgeA

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Anyone read these articles? Not only Windows 8 mess up your current installation, but seems it is spying the customers.

http://gizmodo.com/5...t-very-securely
http://www.withinwin...rtscreen-scare/

As jaclaz pointed out, we've seen something like these articles already. I find the news disturbing, too. I'd thought that SmartScreen either used some kind of heuristic approach and/or relied on a downloaded list to check against. Never occurred to me that it might be getting back to Microsoft with what I'm downloading. And it's even more disturbing to find out that this may have been going on all along, ever since SmartScreen was introduced.

I'm not sure how effective it is at stopping malware, anyway. Every download that I've been warned about, it was Norton Security that warned me, not SmartScreen. The main value I've had for it, is as a second opinion to what Norton reports.

--JorgeA

#815
jaclaz

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As jaclaz pointed out, we've seen something like these articles already.

Actually EXACTLY the SAME ones:
http://gizmodo.com/5...t-very-securely

....
Nadim Kobeissi may be young, but already the hacker and programmer has done more to fight for privacy and internet rights than most of us ever will. Now, he sheds light on the fact that Microsoft knows everything we install on our Windows 8 devices.
....
Republished with permission from Nadim Kobeissi. In addition to developing Cryptocat, hee writes regularly on Twitter and his personal blog.

Originally posted link by Tripredacus:
http://log.nadim.cc/?p=78

Nadim Kobeissi
Windows 8 Tells Microsoft About Everything You Install, Not Very Securely


Now this is some news:
http://www.theverge....rivacy-concerns
the statements from the "MS spokeperson":

"We can confirm that we are not building a historical database of program and user IP
data," says a Microsoft spokesperson. "Like all online services, IP addresses are necessary to connect to our service, but we periodically delete them from our logs. As our privacy statements indicate, we take steps to protect our users’ privacy on the backend. We don’t use this data to identify, contact or target advertising to our users and we don’t share it with third parties."

Responding to claims over SSL security and the data interception risk posted by the SSLv2 protocol, Microsoft says Windows 8 does not use this protocol with the service by default. "Windows SmartScreen does not use the SSL2.0 protocol," says a spokesperson. Microsoft's clarifications make the privacy concerns seem less than a "serious privacy concern," but if you're not happy with the SmartScreen service sending app data to the company you can disable the option during setup or afterwards in the Windows 8 settings.

Here commented by yours truly:

"We can confirm that we are not building a historical database of program and user IP
data," says a Microsoft spokesperson.

Good.
But this doesn't say that a database of just IP's or of just programs is created.
BTW this could well be used to gather "statistical" data, that - without being in the least a "privacy" related concern - still provokes a few questions.
WHY cannot these data be used (internally, i.e. without giving them to third parties) to check - in a similar way to the "telemetry" results to "orient" a new program to resemble one that has "success"?
I think it is clear by now that a noticeable part of the stupidity of Windows 8 derives from results of telemetry (which is a kind of large scale poll to which only the least technical savvy people take part :ph34r: ) i.e. the perfect way to "dumb down" something if the results are not attentively checked and the inherent foolishness of "popularity" vs. "quality" approach is not mitigated *somehow*.
So, hypothetically and just for the sake of the example, if the SmartScreen data indicate that (say) a lot of people downloads and installs "foo.exe", it is hard to think that soon a "MSfoo.exe" app cannot come out, at a slightly lower price.

"Like all online services, IP addresses are necessary to connect to our service, but we periodically delete them from our logs.

Please define "periodically" (one second, one minute, one hour, one day, one week, one month, one year)?

As our privacy statements indicate, we take steps to protect our users’ privacy on the backend.

Can you DETAIL the steps?

We don’t use this data to identify, contact or target advertising to our users and we don’t share it with third parties."

Good.

Responding to claims over SSL security and the data interception risk posted by the SSLv2 protocol, Microsoft says Windows 8 does not use this protocol with the service by default. "Windows SmartScreen does not use the SSL2.0 protocol,"

Correct, CURRENTLY it doesn't use SSLv2, as the protocol was switched to SSLv3 AFTER it was initially published by Nadim Kobeissi that SSLv2 was used.
And still at the moment we know that SSLv2 has some security issues AND we don't know if SSLv3 has any.
What will happen tomorrow?

Microsoft's clarifications make the privacy concerns seem less than a "serious privacy concern," but if you're not happy with the SmartScreen service sending app data to the company you can disable the option during setup or afterwards in the Windows 8 settings.

Thank you guys for leaving us some choices.
So, if - after all - you are also good guys, why not reverse the logic?
Ship the stupid thingy with SmartScreen disabled and let the user choose if he wants to use it, this is BASIC optin vs. optout policy, and whenever - even slightly - the "privacy" sphere is connected, the optin approach is always used.
While you are at it we wouldn't mind to have the possibility of opting out from the Metro "nameless crap" interface.... :whistle:

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 27 August 2012 - 06:08 AM.


#816
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Has it been determined if the tracking includes all setups or just for installs of Metro apps from the Windows store?

The reporting has been all over the place (i.e., "Windows reports all programs you install back to Microsoft").

Back upthread in a discussion of the telemetry we saw evidence that they can somehow discern individual application usage of Microsoft vs 3rd party programs.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#817
jaclaz

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Has it been determined if the tracking includes all setups or just for installs of Metro apps from the Windows store?

Seemingly all, what is different may be the result of the check (i.e. a warning or "nothing").
This is logical, *everything* is checked and what passes the check is considered "kosher", whilst everything that *somehow* doesn't pass the check triggers the warning.

See the article, the attempted to be installed program was TOR (which I don't think comes in a Metro "nameless crap interface" version, and it seemingly hosted on it's homepage: https://torproject.org/ and not on any "store").

jaclaz

#818
Agorima

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Has it been determined if the tracking includes all setups or just for installs of Metro apps from the Windows store?

Seemingly all, what is different may be the result of the check (i.e. a warning or "nothing").
This is logical, *everything* is checked and what passes the check is considered "kosher", whilst everything that *somehow* doesn't pass the check triggers the warning.

See the article, the attempted to be installed program was TOR (which I don't think comes in a Metro "nameless crap interface" version, and it seemingly hosted on it's homepage: https://torproject.org/ and not on any "store").

jaclaz


I like TOR. It's very useful for me to bypass some idiotic blockades added from 2005 in Italy. If someday I'll have a new computer, I'll ask a downgrade to Windows 7.
I don't want to get spied when using this program.

Edited by Agorima, 27 August 2012 - 12:06 PM.


#819
JorgeA

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Yes, I already experienced the SmartScreen Filter's features when it warned me about installing the Skip Metro Suite on the Windows 8 RP.

OTOH, maybe (just maybe) that's one type of application that I'd want MS to know that people are installing...

Speaking of security/privacy issues -- we've touched a couple of times in this thread on the subject of "cloud computing." As we know, Win8 is the most cloud-oriented Microsoft OS yet. Here's a cautionary tale about linking and syncing and putting up too much of our stuff in cyberspace.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 27 August 2012 - 12:09 PM.


#820
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Has it been determined if the tracking includes all setups or just for installs of Metro apps from the Windows store?

Seemingly all, what is different may be the result of the check (i.e. a warning or "nothing").
This is logical, *everything* is checked and what passes the check is considered "kosher", whilst everything that *somehow* doesn't pass the check triggers the warning.

Thanks. Well that would be yet another serious misstep by Microsoft ( trying to track all installs and not just Metro ). It's really come full circle now with Windows 8 repeating every Vista mistake and then some (remember the privacy issue with Vista concerned DRM and hardware content protected path). It is frankly incredible.

Further complicating it, many other sites are still describing this as software installed from the internet ( which I cannot make sense out of, is it through a browser? ). Others say it is only about signed files. Others say it is everything you install. Others say it is just Metro. No matter what this turns out to be, both Smartscreen and the Telemetry from CEIP will need to be watched closely because between the available official information and our suspicions, it looks like 'privacy' is expendable. It doesn't help matters that there are those fanboys again swallowing everything without thinking! For another good laugh there was this thread at NeoWin announcing the SmartScreen story ...

Windows 8 tells Microsoft about everything you install ( NeoWin 2012-08-24 )

The first comment was great: "In before someone spins this as a good thing.". And right on cue it is immediately followed by a parade of fanboys proving him correct. :lol:

Anyway I wonder what they could really do about completely local setup files, using unsigned Inno or NSIS installers where the EXE is renamed to something else like NOTEPAD.EXE and only copies files and imports registry settings without ever using the UNINSTALL keys.

BTW, on one of the other sites there was a link to an old article when the DP came out showing a quick step-by-step guide to disabling SmartScreen ...

How to Turn Off or Disable the SmartScreen Filter In Windows 8 ( howtogeek 2011-11-07 )

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#821
Tripredacus

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Windows 8 does track all the Metro-style apps you "install" since they are tied to your Live account which is used to download apps from the store. I do not know if you can get to the Store with just using a Local Account... haven't gotten that far yet.
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#822
jaclaz

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At first sight what is not at all clear from the articles about "disabling" SmartScreen is WHAT is actually disabled.
I.e. if the actual WHOLE SmartScreen is disabled (in the sense that it does NOTHING) or if the SmartScreen notifications/warnings ONLY are disabled, i.e. it continues sending data to MS BUT, even if the result is "non-kosher", it does not prompt the user (notifications disabled). :unsure:

In other words, once SmartScreen is disabled, is any info sent to MS or not?

Personally, if I had issues with the thingy (of course IF, at gun-point, I would be forced to use Windows 8 :ph34r: ) I would try and find the actual files/executable/services/registry entries connected to it and §@ç#ing delete them from the hard disk :whistle: .

jaclaz

#823
CharlotteTheHarlot

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I was wondering when there would be some painful stories about this. Another possible black eye for Windows 8 from problems in their quasi-RAID implementation called Storage Spaces.

Current Storage Spaces method flawed and buggy ( social.technet.microsoft 2012-08-18 )

Windows 8 Storage Spaces: Can you trust it with your delicates? ( UK Register 2012-08-28 )

I wonder if anyone else had doubts about this. I admit I never like this idea, it is too risky and unnecessary. IMHO it's all about kitchen-sink feature padding to find ways to sell this turd. For all practical purposes It's software RAID ( and I thought we got passed that ). I'm not surprised at the reported problems because software RAID is likely to fail eventually in most circumstances because so many other intensive chores are thrown at the CPU already. But being tied to Windows compounds it because what happens if the OS itself gets malware, or deactivates, or just goes FUBAR. I'm not even surprised at the developers of it at Microsoft because they really have little concern for customer's data, they're just getting their project finished on time. But what gets me is that somewhere up the chain of command there isn't an adult to NOT greenlight such a risky idea that will inevitably create angry customers, possibly big name server users, that could possibly lead to a very large support ticket to handle. Storage Spaces, just like Metro itself are perfect candidates for add-in modules or even entirely separate products. Integrating however, means lots of people will be using it, increasing the statistical probability of fail. I know I would try to avoid needless exposure.

These days if you get a decent motherboard you can easily get hardware RAID built-in. If you don't have it built-in, adding a dedicated card is cheap and relatively simple. Either should easily handle proper RAID or JBOD and similar hybrids. Enterprise customers of course already know exactly what hardware they need to buy if they haven't got it already. So you gotta wonder just who were they thinking of marketing it to? I really hope they don't plan to court possible new Enterprise level customers with salesman nonsense like "with Windows 8 you can throw out all that 3rd party RAID hardware and save money!". If that situation occurred it would be difficult to decide who to laugh at more, Microsoft who sold it to them, or the upset client with a data catastrophe on their hands who thought they could manage their data on the cheap.

I suppose that the idea of connecting all these different hardware interfaces (SCSI, IDE, SATA, USB ...) together in a virtual RAID array was their unique selling point, but for the love of God, using such a mixture of massively different bandwidths, lag times and error checking was thought to be a great idea? For real? Well, yes they did actually ...

Virtualizing storage for scale, resiliency, and efficiency ( Official Destroying Windows Blog 2012-01-05 )

~sigh~ I must be too old school to understand.

Microsoft Windows 8 : NAME UNKNOWN ( We're still working on it )


... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#824
jaclaz

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I wonder if anyone else had doubts about this.

With all due respect for your two sources, I cannot agree, the whole thing doesn't stand :no: .
It seems to me like they started with a nonsensical task, mixing together different sized disks and expecting that the capacity was not that of the smaller one?
Then proceed to fill up the thingy?
Comeon.....
What happens on a "normal" hardware RAID setup?

The capacity of the array is that of the smaller disk! :whistle:

Most probably since UNLIKE common hardware RAID, the Windows 8 thingy is scalable/upgradable by adding more disks, the capacity manager uses the biggest of the hard disk to set the limit of the array and most probably when the array will have been nearing the capacity of the smallest one a popup or balloon or *whatever* would come up saying something like:

The disk array is nearing it's maximum capacity, as the free space is less than x%, you should add another disk to the array.


Of course a properly working OS would have made this clear from the beginning, actually IMHO a good OS would have also slapped the user in the face - hard - for even thinking of doing that.

I see that stuff a lot like Dynamic disks (that came out with 2K), they are a seemingly nice feature, but noone uses them, let alone use them "properly" (mainly because the related documentation is either missing, wrong, sucks big or all of the three together) exception made for a few courageous adventurers that usually end their adventure loosing some data because the configuration wasn't correct or they did some other experiment with inadequate software and what not :( .

As a matter of fact IMHO these kind of features (like dynamic disks, "storage pools" and now "storage spaces" or whatever) should be reserved to the (very few) people that know where their towel is, i.e. the mistake is not as much in the technology in itself, but rather in providing it masquerading it as an "easy-one-or-two-click-away" one.
BTW not an entirely new stance of mine, this is exactly what I think about most Partition Manager tools (Partition Magic >3 and Acronis products in primis), putting seemingly easy (almost unlimited) power in the hands of "n00bs" is one of the possible recipes for disaster, I wish I had a dime for each Gb of data lost through the (incorrect) use of these tools.... :angel

OT, but not much ;), it is very likely that the good MS guys took some existing code:
http://technet.micro...ibrary/cc161247
and decided to add something like it to a more "user level" OS.

It doesn't make much sense :no: , on one hand they clearly consider all their users as demented as to *need* SmartScreen and *need not* a desktop/start button, on the other hand they consider them like highly skilled IT specialists :w00t: ( capable of setting up a "mixed mode" increased resiliency, mirror/parity storage pool and manage it )

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 28 August 2012 - 10:46 AM.


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MagicAndre1981

MagicAndre1981

    after Windows 7 GA still Vista lover :)

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:lol: Sasung installs a Startmenu by default on their new PCs to not confuse the Users who use Windows 8 :lol:

http://mashable.com/...ung-s-launcher/

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