Jump to content

Welcome to MSFN Forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account


Photo

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


  • Please log in to reply
5760 replies to this topic

#1176
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,023 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Edit: @jaclaz same thing can be said to you all. Nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to use Windows 8, stick with whatever OS you are using now

Sure :thumbup , and as a matter of fact, being largely a NT4 and 2K user, and having upgraded to XP only in 2008 or 2009, it would be very unlikely that it will happen any soon.
You evidently missed the game:
http://www.msfn.org/...327#entry996327

From the little tests I made -as said - the OS itself is not at all "bad", but this is completely irrelevant, we are here (besides other reasons) to exchange ideas, knowledge and opinions, ever wondered why places like this are called "discussion boards"?

So, I feel free to post - within the limits of the Board Rules, any info, idea, knowledge and opinion I have and like to share, and - usually - I have some fun :yes: when doing this.

jaclaz


How to remove advertisement from MSFN

#1177
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Well, I can't go into details but Microsoft already has these rules for OEMs. The problem is that no software maker is following them. And there is a rule about not installing anything that adds a Start Menu back, replaces the Start Screen or including any program that can access the Store, display Metro style apps, etc. This partly relates to my previous post about ODMs not fully embracing the new "rules" regarding Windows 8.

So to put it bluntly, Toshiba CANNOT ship a system as an OEM that includes a Start Menu replacer.

If this product is allowed to be released, what you will be seeing is a full-on revolt by OEMs and ODMs against Microsoft. :o

I wish you would ( go into details ). It sounds like Redmond and their Licensing agreements are pushing right up against private property issues. This is the same as saying they can't change the wallpaper. Of course Microsoft couldn't care less if OEM's install reams of crapware for support, toolbars, docks, backup, assistants, cloud, antivirus trials and games. I guess that is good crapware. Functional Start-Menu's are bad crapware. The OEM's should not only revolt, but shut down their support lines and forward all the Windows 8 Metro questions right to Microsoft.

Everything in that bold section is a direct challenge to who owns the frickin' computer in the first place, and it is not Microsoft even though they think they do. This OEM backroom licensing thing needs to be challenged, adjudicated, and destroyed. It is how they established the giant monopoly in the first place, the same monopoly they are now clearly trying to squeeze and exploit. And as for the anti-class action lawsuit changes, well I can't wait for the European courts to pick the new EULA apart. It will set some nice precedents for our courts over here. Like I said many times, Microsoft is really sticking their neck out, really far. They are only recently out from underneath the last DOJ action and judgment, and are operating in the clear for the first time in a long while and they seem hell-bent on corporate suicide. Apple-envy is mental illness.



If anything tho, I'd rather the people of Neowin not be referred to as "fanboy site" or whatever. We don't need to be talking like that here.

Well if that's the official word here I'll abide by it and stop. I got nothing against NeoWin or Steven and I think they have done pretty good work all things considered. My recent disgust with the (F-word) children over-running the place is the fact that they have far out-done the Apple sycophants of the 1980's, by far. It is embarrassing, and hypocritical because they are making the iSheep look like mature adults. Is "MicroZombies" okay you think?



Are you guys going to post EVERY negative article that comes out about Windows 8?

I'm sorry but this topic is nothing but a diarrhea of articles, I'd even go as far as saying this is bordering on spam

OK we get it, you don't like Windows 8

Usually when I post the two or three "negative" articles I mention the very fact that it is the two or three out of one or two DOZEN fluff pieces. That ratio isn't overwhelming enough already? We should leave these stories buried in the Windows 8 avalanche I guess.

P.S. I got first dibs on that bolded word upthread! See below ...

Microsoft Windows 8 : Fast and Fluid Experience! (like Diarrhea) © ™ ® :lol:


... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#1178
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,024 posts
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

P.S. I got first dibs on that bolded word upthread! See below ...

Microsoft Windows 8 : Fast and Fluid Experience! (like Diarrhea) © ™ ® :lol:

:D

#1179
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,024 posts
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
Paul Thurrott, our favorite Windows 8 fan, leans over the cliff in the following excerpt from Windows Weekly. Then, in the next excerpt, he steps back somewhat with a lucid observation of the dangers involved in Metrofying everything.

I:
During a discussion of Samsung's (possible) addition of a desktop application launcher that would include a revived Start Button for Windows 8, Paul, Mary Jo Foley, and host Leo Laporte had the following exchange --

MJF: When everybody was saying, "why are they letting them do this?" and "why can they do this, they're wrecking the beautiful experience of the Start Screen and all?" But you know what they have to think about? I say, there are a bunch of people who are not going to try Windows 8, because when they see that UI, they're going to be like, "Whoa! I don't even recognize this, like what the heck?"

There are people who love the new UI, and they're excited to try new things -- and there are people who don't. So if you're a Windows fan, wouldn't you rather have people buy Windows 8 even if the only way they'll buy it is to have this? Like it'll get them in the door, at least...

PT: This is -- I say, leave those people for dead, Mary Jo! [laughter] No, I, ah -- I vote that they wake up and the caravan is just gone. [laughter] I hear what you're saying, but I mean, I think that a lot of the knee-jerk reaction to the Start Menu or Start Button being gone, is resolved simply by realizing that it's OK -- you know, that it's not horrible using it the way it is.

MJF: But I like giving people a choice, and if Samsung puts this on there and people don't want it, they can kill it off of there, right?

LL: Yeah, you don't have to use it.


II:
Later on in the show, Paul (unlike the public pronouncements by Steve and Steve) showed an awareness of the possibility that this whole Metrofication thing could turn into a disaster --

PT: You know, we're going to be in for an interesting little period of time here, where -- what happens when Office 2015 or 16, or whatever it's called, is recast as a series of Metro-style apps that don't do everything that the current suite does, right? What if they scale back -- you know, we all know what the outcry has been so far over the perceived limitations of multitasking in Windows 8 and how Metro apps are slightly retarded compared to regular applications: what hapens when they do that to Office? Or, we could look at the people who've complained about Server Manager in Windows Server 2012? The most powerful version of Windows Server yet, and they've got this kind of bizarre, inscrutable, Metro-inspired UI that they expect admins to live in all day long? Most people have looked at that and been like, "uuhhh -- seriously??" I mean, they're just horrified by it. There's the potential for backllash here if they're not careful as they make this transition.


--JorgeA

EDIT: typo!

Edited by JorgeA, 21 October 2012 - 03:51 PM.


#1180
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Yep, Thurrott is a piece of work. No bigger shill can be found at any price anywhere at any time.


Is “Microsoft design style” the final name for Metro? ( NeoWin 2012-10-21 )

Another day, another possible name for Metro. Honestly, I just can't believe anyone started calling it "Modern UI" with a straight face. :lol: I guess it never occurred to them to just use Metropolitan. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what they want to call it, the problem is more than a name. That problem is that this gigantic move was underway for at least three years and they never bothered to secure rights for "Metro" at any point along the way. Either that or the legal eagles were saying all along: "Don't worry, the name is safe". In either case there is the clear indication of upper management level incompetence. But that is hardly news at all.


Best Buy prices Lumia 920 at $149 and HTC 8X at $99, accepting pre-orders now ( NeoWin 2012-10-21 )

Those are subsidized 2-year contract prices and they are confirmed by a screenshot at Best Buy. The fine print says $599 for non-activated, but that may just be a comparison style sales pitch because they have no screenshot of the phone at that price that can be added to the cart. Those Nokia phones are all missing now at Best Buy anyway, only the HTC remains and again the only option is with the contract, no purchase offers without. Hence, I would not count on that $599 being the firm retail price. The carrier of course, exclusively, is AT&T and they get you for 2-years. How wonderful!


Canonical to Windows XP cliff-clingers: Ubuntu safety net's ready... now jump ( UK Register 2012-10-18 )

What's happening is that they are lobbying the UK Government and others to replace sunsetting Windows XP workstations with Ubuntu. It's a smart move for Canonical but they report no numbers for a means of comparison. There is one angle that the article doesn't touch upon, and that is the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" aspect of this for Canonical. You see, it could get real interesting if some of the clients bit and decided to switch over and then Microsoft swoops in and makes them an offer they can't refuse. Then the poop would hit the fan on the anti-trust anti-competitive front. However, if they do lose any Windows clients to Linux, no matter how few, it will be magnified a hundred-fold in the Tech press and on Wall Street and might be the snowflake that starts the snowball rolling down the hill. Ironically, once you have 90%+ domination of a market, there is only one place to go, eventually.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#1181
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

    Coffee Aficionado

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,399 posts
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag
That's really hilarious! Priceless, even.

Ubuntu safety net's ready... now jump

Ready in what way? Because it seems anything BUT ready to me!

What's happening is that they are lobbying the UK Government and others to replace sunsetting Windows XP workstations with Ubuntu. It's a smart move for Canonical but they report no numbers for a means of comparison.

Except that the numbers just don't look that good once you factor in all the costs. And that's assuming it can even do the job in the first place which is quite unlikely. I mean, no good Exchange Client (hope you didn't need email), no ActiveX-compatible browser (that's not an uncommon requirement in big businesses or gov't), not being able to run any of the existing software (just find suitable replacements for 100% of the software used by every single of the 100000+ employees), supporting all of the incredibly diverse hardware you find in an organization of that size, etc.

You see, it could get real interesting if some of the clients bit and decided to switch over and then Microsoft swoops in and makes them an offer they can't refuse. Then the poop would hit the fan on the anti-trust anti-competitive front.

I don't see how it would be a problem. If they threaten to switch, they will get better prices. It seems like a well known strategy, and I don't see how a supplier offering a better deal would be a problem. The only "problem" here is for MS, who would get less money per license.

The rest of the article is pretty much one big joke...

Here's another big date, only slightly more ominous: 8 April, 2014.

...which is exactly when the current version of Ubuntu (the one they're talking about) loses support, so not a single day is gained. Unless you stick to the LTS, where you just push your problem back by a couple years instead (vs Win7 SP1 which gets support until January 2020 at least and might be extended like XP's date was)

This October has also seen the launch of another operating system, one which hopes to capitalise on the end of Windows XP and the uncertainty of Windows 8.

Yes, as if Ubuntu (Linux with Unity and now HUD too) which people are abandoning for Mint and Arch is any less uncertain! If anything it's even more confusing (and again, no binary compatibility, etc)

They're pushing for a drastic change which is almost certain to turn into complete and massive failure which very well might even cost more, when a very good (and really not THAT expensive) solution already exists in the form of Win7, which most of the market is moving to already, and with great success. The interface is still pretty familiar, it still runs all the software you need and so on.

Sometimes I wonder if any of these people ever worked in a business environment. Because they clearly seem not to understand the millions of ways people are just locked in to MS products, and their one and only argument seems to be that Linux makes you save the Windows license, while disregarding absolutely *everything* else (like not being able to do the job in the first place). They don't seem to get just how massive such a migration would be, the amount of planning required and the time it takes (it's already too late to even think of a staged migration). It only makes them seem amateurish IMO, and that's just one more reason not to trust them.
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.

#1182
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,024 posts
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
CoffeeFiend,

It's too early for this sort of mass migration, considering that Windows 7 extended support will run till -- what, 2020?

However, if Microsoft insists on foisting its Metro insanity on its customers -- and especially if, as some predict, they ultimately eliminate the Desktop altogether -- then as that date nears there will be an opportunity for alternative OS's to make a pitch to those who won't put up with it. You've already expressed the idea of changing over to the Mac, while I'm looking into a Linux flavor.

Switching to the hybrid Windows 8 with the Metro Start Screen and no Start Button/Menu already entails a big change for a user, but a Windows RT-type system lacking a Desktop would be a much bigger one, about as big an adjustment as switching to Linux or the Mac, don't you think? None of our current programs would work there, either. That's where the opening lies for alternative OS's. Linux developers have eight years or so to devise sophisticated enterprise applications of the sort that you describe, and having a specific timetable ("2020 or Bust!") might be useful in making that happen.

That's how I'm seeing it, anyway.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 22 October 2012 - 11:52 PM.


#1183
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

    Coffee Aficionado

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,399 posts
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

considering that Windows 7 extended support will run till -- what, 2020?

Yes, assuming they don't extend it. It's really not a big deal right now.

You've already expressed the idea of changing over to the Mac

I already have one, but it's still not as nice as Win7 in my opinion, and limited for what I do.

Switching to the hybrid Windows 8 with the Metro Start Screen and no Start Button/Menu already entails a big change for a user, but a Windows RT-type system lacking a Desktop would be a much bigger one, about as big an adjustment as switching to Linux or the Mac, don't you think?

Yes. But I don't think MS could successfully pull that anytime soon (getting rid of the desktop and Win32 compatibility altogether). Replacing the start menu with a crappy smartphone interface is one thing (it makes using it a pain) but dropping compatibility with virtually 100% of the software your OS runs is quite another.

None of our current programs would work there, either.

Well, not completely. Macs still run MS Office, everything Adobe (Photoshop and others) and many others. It's not quite Windows but it's a LOT better than Linux as for commercial software.

Linux developers have eight years or so to devise sophisticated enterprise applications of the sort that you describe, and having a specific timetable ("2020 or Bust!") might be useful in making that happen.

8 years to come up with a drop-in replacement for active directory, group policies, a complete replacement for exchange + outlook, full compatibility with MS Office formats and proper replacements for the entire suite (including Visio, OneNote and Project, not just Word and Excel!), all the big commercial software like Photoshop or AutoCAD, offering developer tools on par with Visual Studio and SQL Server, etc. That would also require changing ActiveX-based web apps (which are often extremely expensive enterprise apps like our ERP System) which require a LOT of time, energy, planning and money to replace, and also rewriting most if not all of "in-house" line-of-business apps which can require more man-hours and cost more than anyone might imagine (assuming you already have a small army of programmers around doing nothing) and *so many* more things!

At that point, people just start offering suggestions like running everything you need under WINE (yeah, like a business will rely on that!), or basically moving everything to terminal servers (massive servers that cost LOTS of $, with *massive* software licensing fees, which aren't all that good at running many types of apps), running everything under vmware and other similar "solutions"... And even if you somehow managed to do all that, then you'd still have TONS of specialized stuff that needs proprietary software that only runs on Windows (from medical imagery machines, CNC machines, industrial automation equipment, various photography gear, programming/embedded/lab equipment and what not). Or if you want a simple and common example of that, we got a couple "specialized" label printers (the latest being a Brady). No Linux drivers exist for the thing, much less the software (which is very crappy, expensive and requires a hardware dongle) to design & print the labels. And even if that already existed somehow, then we'd have thousands of labels to redesign or recreate still... Cases like these are extremely common in businesses.

As an IT manager, would you rather pay about $150 per PC for a Win7 Pro license (you're done, the problem's solved until 2020 or more!), or deal with all of the above, including the user training (you'd not only replace the OS but also all of the software), the user complaints, the loss of productivity, the incredible amount of planning required, the high risks associated with it and everything else? It's quite an easy choice to make. Then in 5 years from now, you'll see what Win8's successor looks like and start planning your next migration. Until then you have a solid OS that does the job great, and you can't really plan for 2020, trying to predict how things might change over almost a decade...
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.

#1184
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,023 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Oww, come on.:)
Is this a new dimension to "generalizing"?
On other news:
http://linux.slashdo...switch-to-linux
http://translate.goo...1203-90821.html

Original German:
http://www.golem.de/...1203-90821.html
It is possible? Yes.
Has it be done? Yes.
Are there some issues? Of course (and of course you won't be told which they actually were, as who took the decision have all the interest in minimizing reports of issues and maximizing the news about savings, i.e. to report the success of the switch).

But, again, there is not written anywhere that you will have only one Operating System (or only one operating system provider) there are no reasons why mixed approaches won't work, in the case of Munich the transition took 8 years (and possibly will never reach 100%):
http://en.wikipedia...._Linux_adopters
But since a few years "office" work is done on OpenOffice and e-mails are sent and received through Thunderbird, so the theory of MS office or Exchange being somehow "needed" is disproved fully.

These old news (2005):
http://www.zdnet.com...tro-3039195204/
will most probably be appreciated by CharlotteTheHarlot ;):

Munich's migration has attracted a lot of interest from the start, with Microsoft chief executive Steve Ballmer reportedly interrupting a ski holiday in Switzerland to pay a personal visit to Munich's mayor to dissuade him from migrating.


jaclaz

#1185
Tripredacus

Tripredacus

    K-Mart-ian Legend

  • Super Moderator
  • 9,695 posts
  • OS:Server 2012
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Sometimes I wonder if any of these people ever worked in a business environment. Because they clearly seem not to understand the millions of ways people are just locked in to MS products, and their one and only argument seems to be that Linux makes you save the Windows license, while disregarding absolutely *everything* else (like not being able to do the job in the first place). They don't seem to get just how massive such a migration would be, the amount of planning required and the time it takes (it's already too late to even think of a staged migration). It only makes them seem amateurish IMO, and that's just one more reason not to trust them.


Its not just that, but its a confusing subject and reason I can only point to is old business practices that do not keep up with the times. I worked with a company to do a migration from Windows NT 4 to Windows XP. The project lasted over 1 year and that actual "migration" period took about 6 months. There was a ton of testing with all their applications, particularly the database apps and the legacy terminal systems that were still in use. The worst part was that the company had put off the migration (and even the testing) until about 1 year from Windows NT support expiring. It was such a pain and no pro-active testing or development was done when XP came out and everything had to wait for some reason. After the entire painful process was completed, everything was better and back to business.

Well guess what, XP is running out of time and that same company is dragging their feet on going up to Windows 7. They are making the same mistakes they made nearly 10 years prior. Why does this happen? I think the same reasons you point out in your Linux argument.
MSFN RULES | GimageX HTA for PE 3.x | lol probloms
msfn2_zpsc37c7153.jpg

#1186
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,024 posts
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
CoffeeFiend,

Good details, from someone who obviously knows what's involved. But if you're right about the practical obstacles involved, and then it turns out that Windows "9" isn't any better than 8, then it sounds like we're basically scr*wed in the long run. Would that be your assessment?

--JorgeA

#1187
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,024 posts
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
We are told that the future lies in the cloud, that soon we won't need terabytes of local storage because we'll have all our stuff in a central server somewhere; and Microsoft is helping to pave the way by making an OS designed for devices with 32GB of space.

And then something like this happens to bring our heads out of the cloud, if only for a few minutes before we resume our ascent.

--JorgeA

#1188
vinifera

vinifera

    <°)))><

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 951 posts
  • OS:Windows 7 x86
  • Country: Country Flag
I'd be dead before I let any provider store my data
If you want true Windows user experience
try Longhorn builds: 3718, 4029, 4066

#1189
CoffeeFiend

CoffeeFiend

    Coffee Aficionado

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,399 posts
  • OS:Windows 7 x64
  • Country: Country Flag

It is possible? Yes.
Has it be done? Yes.
Are there some issues? Of course (and of course you won't be told which they actually were, as who took the decision have all the interest in minimizing reports of issues and maximizing the news about savings, i.e. to report the success of the switch).

(emphasis mine)

I'm well aware of that migration. I don't think they're really telling us the whole story (exactly like MS "factually" told us Vista was their best selling OS ever after its release), and keep in mind that it's pretty much a best-case scenario, and that they've been planning it since 2003 (9 years ago). They are well over time and budget (even though they're talking about savings now). Of course, they say nothing about the percentage of Windows PCs left (still 20%?) or for what reasons, they haven't released documents that show their (likely creative) accounting (and if they're comparing to non-discounted licenses), how it affected user productivity, etc. But then again, it wasn't easy at all, and they would likely have saved a lot too just by moving to a sane setup. I mean, they had one IT staff per 15 PCs (yes, really!), and their setup was pretty much a complete and unadulterated disaster. They had nowhere to go but up. No, it's not completely impossible for 100% of businesses but it's hardly like the completely clueless Ubuntu cheerleaders seem to think it is. You know the "just install Ubuntu instead of XP then just keep working as usual!" mentality which is completely detached from reality.

I worked with a company to do a migration from Windows NT 4 to Windows XP. The project lasted over 1 year and that actual "migration" period took about 6 months. There was a ton of testing with all their applications, particularly the database apps and the legacy terminal systems that were still in use.

Been there, done that :) Well, pretty involved with the Win2k -> XP desktop migration at least, and moving servers from NT4 to 2003 (moving from NT domains to AD, etc). It was a major undertaking, costing millions and taking well over a year too. And we're talking about a migration between alike OS'es without too many differences (Win2k->XP is nothing like XP->Unbuntu for sure!) And while I wasn't part of the previous migration to Win2k, I can recall lots of problems we were having at that time, like applications all requiring admin rights (writing to folders regular users shouldn't be able to, having to track down the problem with filemon and regmon, and granting special permissions to users of each specific software through scripts) and similar things. I mean, it's already enough work and complex enough as it is...

We also recently finished our XP->7 migration at my current job, where lots of programs used on XP were Win98-era programs that were patched to barely run on XP and that just didn't work on 7. Like imagecraft 6, used for some old codebases where we only have to make minor changes occasionally. Or 64 bit drivers being unavailable for some necessary hardware... We had a whole lot of small issues to deal with, even if we were migrating to an OS that's very much compatible.

But if you're right about the practical obstacles involved, and then it turns out that Windows "9" isn't any better than 8, then it sounds like we're basically scr*wed in the long run. Would that be your assessment?

Pretty much, yes. But if Win8 turns out to be a complete disaster I don't see how MS could simple do nothing about it and aim for a even worse disaster. Do you really think they could have released a 2nd "Vista" (another problematic and poorly received OS) straight? And by the time Win 9 is out, lots more companies could have ported their software to run on OS X too, and maybe that the virtualization & terminal server-like solutions will improve significantly*. I don't know. It's hard to accurately predict the future of technology a decade ahead I guess. The batteries on my crystal ball are dead.

* Right now it mostly means moving your software from cheap "desktop" commodity hardware to enterprise-grade servers that cost tens of thousands of dollars (while still still being accessed from the exact same commodity desktop hardware, so no real savings there typically), then having to pay for the virtual instances of the OS that runs on it (many very expensive Windows server licenses to buy!), then user CALs (~$30/user), then having to buy terminal server CALs ($800 for 5 users) on top of that, then perhaps Citrix CALs too ($945 per 5 users for XenApp Fundamentals), assuming those server instances aren't running virtualized under something like vSphere (starts at $995 per CPU), it typically requires some new networking hardware, perhaps an expensive upgrade to an existing SAN (a 5 or 6 digit amount of money), new backup software for those new servers (expensive Backup Exec and/or Veeam licenses) and a medium to backup to, often getting expensive paid support on a lot of things, a lot of planning being required by highly paid experts and so on. So yeah, it's definitely not a cheap option. And in the end, it's not as easy or responsive as just running the app itself on your PC. In my opinion, it just moves the "problem" somewhere far more expensive.
Coffee: \ˈkȯ-fē, ˈkä-\. noun. Heaven in a cup. Life's only treasure. The meaning of life. Kaffee ist wunderbar. C8H10N4O2 FTW.

#1190
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,023 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
The usual set of seemingly UNconnected links:
http://www.networkwo...nity/node/81498
http://www.networkwo...es-dos-part-two
http://www.networkwo...-learning-linux

IMHO the good Linux guys are as well (meaning just like MS) completely clueless :w00t: about how to actually make something useful/productive.
From time to time I quickly try one of the new releases/distro's and every single time I find either of three situations:
  • a senseless "mock up" of Windows XP/7 with a lot of (unneeded) eye candy but very little "juice"
  • a "guru only" environment where nothing is doable without having already a rather advanced knowledge of the command line tools (almost, but not quite, completely unlike dos)
  • a "specialized" distro that invariably was specialized by someone that has NO idea of what an actual "specialized" user would do

I remember a time when (though still preliminary/under development) there used to be distro's which appeared a good compromise between usability and power at your firngertips, as an example, I remember Morphix as a potentially good one (currently "in coma"):
http://www.morphix.org/

Most probably I am getting old, and even more probably I got casually my hands on non-ideal distro's (at least lately), but I have the feeling that the great idea behind Linux (freedom) is vanified by excesses of it, I seem to never be able to get a simple, stable, no-nonsense, easily configurable something, if I get one of the "mainstream" and "full" distro, I have the impression of having a catalog of apps instead of an OS, if I get a simple, small distro, I get something so "vertical" that it is useless for anything else but the single (or very few) scopes the developer had in mind, but it nonetheless contains a whole lot of "fluff" that is not needed at all (for the declared scope) and only makes things bigger/slower/more complex than needed.

As said most probably it is just me .... still .... :(

jaclaz

#1191
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

That's really hilarious! Priceless, even.


Ubuntu safety net's ready... now jump

Ready in what way? Because it seems anything BUT ready to me!

All good points CoffeeFiend. Just to be clear, that article is obviously the opinion of the Register, not me. It is to be expected as they are kinda the opposite of NeoWin, far more pro-Linux and Open-Source. It is a fun read but mostly speculation since there are no real numbers from Canonical that can be used to gauge adoption progress.

As I said, the interesting thing will be if they get a few high-profile companies to consider switching and then Microsoft moves to quash it and gets themselves into a legal predicament ( not far-fetched considering the incredible management mis-steps lately with the Metro naming fiasco and the latest browser ballot oversight just to name two ). Microsoft could easily do something here that would open up severe ant-trust implications by crushing even the possibility of a tiny bit of competition. My main point is that even a couple of meaningless mainstream Windows to Linux "switchers" would be massively magnified in the press and on Wall Street and would be great entertainment as well.

Having said that, you make great points. In the past decade, or 15 years even, Linux has seemingly made no real progress on addressing end-users and the purchasers responsible for company-wide roll-outs. There is a solid back-end used on many servers and larger systems, but the various factions still turn a nearly blind-eye to the user-facing front-end. It will take quite an effort to address this, and even though there has been some progress on Ubuntu and a few other distros, the general approach is one of anti-Windows and that recipe simply fails in the "mainstream".

As it stands now with the "cloud" hype, we just might ironically devolve back to original mainframe-terminal model with Linux on the back-end and Metro madness dumbing down the front. Microsoft will have themselves to blame with their inexplicable efforts to not only cripple the desktops of the end-user, but also pollute the interface of server editions. These are strange times indeed. :yes:

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#1192
Tripredacus

Tripredacus

    K-Mart-ian Legend

  • Super Moderator
  • 9,695 posts
  • OS:Server 2012
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

Here is a review of the Surface with Windows RT installed.
http://www.wired.com...rosoft-surface/

I'm not sure what the end result is... This isn't the kind of review that tells you "YES GO BUY IT" or "NO DON'T BUY IT" at the end. It has some pros and cons at the end, but the ones in the text of the article seem more important.

I am hopeful for the Surface, presuming I can get one some day as I finally (after years of being around Tablets) found a way I could integrate one in my life and my hobbies or whatever. There are just times I wish I had a computer when there is no computer around and the cell phone just won't cut it. For example, I do not particularly like using a web browser on the phone.

I'm wondering what the impact of the Surface not having a 3G/LTE option will have on it. Maybe I don't really know how that is supposed to be used. I am under the impression that using that type of connection requires the device to be added to a mobile phone plan... as in, it isn't FREE...
MSFN RULES | GimageX HTA for PE 3.x | lol probloms
msfn2_zpsc37c7153.jpg

#1193
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,023 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

For example, I do not particularly like using a web browser on the phone.

I'm wondering what the impact of the Surface not having a 3G/LTE option will have on it. Maybe I don't really know how that is supposed to be used. I am under the impression that using that type of connection requires the device to be added to a mobile phone plan... as in, it isn't FREE...

Guees WHY exactly the good Apple guys came out with the "mini" iPad?
Could it be for people that think a cellphone is too small but a tablet/netbook too big? :unsure:

jaclaz

#1194
Tripredacus

Tripredacus

    K-Mart-ian Legend

  • Super Moderator
  • 9,695 posts
  • OS:Server 2012
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator


For example, I do not particularly like using a web browser on the phone.

I'm wondering what the impact of the Surface not having a 3G/LTE option will have on it. Maybe I don't really know how that is supposed to be used. I am under the impression that using that type of connection requires the device to be added to a mobile phone plan... as in, it isn't FREE...

Guees WHY exactly the good Apple guys came out with the "mini" iPad?
Could it be for people that think a cellphone is too small but a tablet/netbook too big? :unsure:

jaclaz


Yes it may have something to do with Amazon's Kindle products which are pretty small from what I see in commercials. These new tablets are just right-sized (even the mini iPad or Kindle sizes included) as compared to the old tablets. A netbook was a cool thing and I got one, but it is still cumbersome because it still is just a notebook.
MSFN RULES | GimageX HTA for PE 3.x | lol probloms
msfn2_zpsc37c7153.jpg

#1195
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Interesting article that attempts to itemize many of the battlefields that Microsoft has been fighting on.

Microsoft at War: Grading Redmond’s Battle Record ( TechSpot 2012-10-25 )

I'd say a few battles were left out, particularly from the early days, conflicts with Apple, Lotus, and IBM of course. The future hasn't been written yet but certainly the current one named as #7 is much bigger than described. It is the big one. Microsoft has declared war on the personal computer, it's most loyal customers and developers, and on Windows ( note the plural :lol: ) itself. If this Windows 7 service pack controversy is proved true, I expect many more people will now wake up to find that although they started out using software and operating system created by Microsoft, they suddenly are pawns to MicroApple. Anyone left that still doesn't get it are simply slow cooking frogs.

Steve Jobs did not die. He is haunting the halls of Redmond, possessing the mind and body of Steve Sinofsky.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#1196
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,024 posts
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag

If this Windows 7 service pack controversy is proved true, I expect many more people will now wake up to find that although they started out using software and operating system created by Microsoft, they suddenly are pawns to MicroApple. Anyone left that still doesn't get it are simply slow cooking frogs.

I had not heard about that (sorry if I missed it from before). Looked it up. Unbelievable!

Here's my favorite of the reader comments:

Amazing. Microsoft must truly want to destroy itself.

They know that releasing Windows 7 Service Pack 2 will prolong the life of Windows 7 for many many years to come.

However, I think what they miscalculated is that this would encourage people to upgrade to Windows 8 sooner rather later.

**NewsFlash** - With or without Service Pack 2 I will not be upgrading to your ***** tablet OS now more than ever. I have never seen Microsoft push so hard with such a blatant disregard for the people who have enabled them to do what they do now for the past 20 years. Way to bite the hand that has feed you for the past 2 decades *********!!!!!!


--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 25 October 2012 - 03:59 PM.


#1197
JorgeA

JorgeA

    FORMAT B: /V /S

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 3,024 posts
  • OS:Vista Home Premium x64
  • Country: Country Flag
A veteran Windows observer discusses the vast potential for customer bewilderment with respect to Windows 8 and Windows RT and what each of them can or can't do.

In a July column, “Win8 + Windows RT + WinRT = mass confusion,” I chided Microsoft for its extraordinarily poor choice of terminology. I urged the Redmondians to get the confusion sorted out so consumers can make an easily understood, informed decision about Win8 and Windows RT — on both traditional PCs and tablets. But as best I can tell, Microsoft has done virtually nothing to make the distinctions clear.


--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 25 October 2012 - 10:43 PM.


#1198
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

A veteran Windows observer discusses the vast potential for customer bewilderment with respect to Windows 8 and Windows RT and what each of them can or can't do.

In a July column, “Win8 + Windows RT + WinRT = mass confusion,” I chided Microsoft for its extraordinarily poor choice of terminology. I urged the Redmondians to get the confusion sorted out so consumers can make an easily understood, informed decision about Win8 and Windows RT — on both traditional PCs and tablets. But as best I can tell, Microsoft has done virtually nothing to make the distinctions clear.


--JorgeA

Confusion factor has never been higher. One of the things I've gone on about is the deception of showing people swiping their screens with no disclaimer ever shown: "Swiping requires a Touch-Screen Monitor". That might sound silly to us techie types, but the Windows 8 lovers are the same type of people that push for warnings on cigarette packs and other similar cases of obvious-ness.

There really will be people buying Windows 8 because they believe their computer will suddenly work like their smartphone, take that to the bank. Without a clear disclaimer Microsoft is complicit in a fraud. Exactly the kind that the FTC terrorizes other companies and products over. They will deserve what happens regardless of their modified EULA.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#1199
CharlotteTheHarlot

CharlotteTheHarlot

    MSFN Master

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,054 posts
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
A few alternative views. Ummm, for those who are fretting or keeping track, since the Windows 8 launch is underway estimated ratio of positive articles to negative is probably 100:1.

Microsoft Surface With Windows RT is DOA ( Sascha Segan PC Magazine 2012-10-24 )

Sales Aren't All They Seem
"But it sold out!" you cry. That may not be all it seems. I've heard that Microsoft made 250,000 initial Surface RT tablets, half of which (125,000) were the now sold-out 32GB model. But of those 125,000 tablets, a full 80,000 were purchased by Microsoft itself for employees. That means only 45,000 consumers and corporate IT managers have plunked down for Surface RT. That's safely below the margin of super-analyst Michael Gartenberg's Law, which says that with the right marketing you can sell 50,000 of anything.



Windows 8 Looks Suspiciously Like a Slot Machine ( John C. Dvorak PC Magazine 2012-10-25 )

Dvorak has a tongue-in-cheek, but perfectly plausible theory that the overall design of Windows 8 Metro with constantly updating tiles is a ripoff of the principle used on modern gaming slot machines ( slots, video poker, etc ) which use little tricks to get people's attention as you linger around them. Having spent years in both Las Vegas and Atlantic City I can attest to this. They are designed to attract at a primal level. When there is an idle games, after a period of time certain items like cards or objects begin to animate, but not all of them. It is like in nature where a predator like a cat sees a little movement in a large field of view that grabs their attention. People are certainly drawn to these machines even if only to watch the animation play out and to see what happens next. Dvorak speculates the softies spend a little too much time in Las Vegas but that it really is apropos considering how much of a gamble they are taking.



This one is absolutely fabulous ...

Microsoft's 'official' Windows 8 Survival Guide leaks ( Andrew Orlowski UK Register 2012-10-25 )

Q. How do I distinguish bugs from features?
A. The traditional taxonomy is as follows:

  • A software bug is an undocumented and unwanted behaviour of a piece of software, which may be caused by carelessness, incompetence or possibly inebriation when the software is created. An example of a bug is a calculation program incorrectly adding two numbers.
  • A software feature is a desired and typically documented behaviour of a piece of software. An example of a feature may be the ability to print a photograph from an image viewer helper application.
With Windows® 8™, Microsoft® has taken an innovative approach and discarded this taxonomy. The user is instead offered a holistic and integrated user experience where the old distinctions are no longer relevant. An aspect of the software’s behaviour may be a bug, or it may be a feature. For users unwilling to accept the distinction at first, this guide will help them maintain productivity while pivoting to the new Microsoft® Windows® 8™ user experience paradigm.

Hands down winner. Best thing yet written on Windows 8! Clever, witty, brilliant. And that is just a small tease. Be sure to read through the comments and be amazed that some folks still couldn't figure it out. Microsoft's paid force of sleeper agent astro-turfers and fake commenters have been activated this week and an article like this one easily blows their cover.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#1200
Tripredacus

Tripredacus

    K-Mart-ian Legend

  • Super Moderator
  • 9,695 posts
  • OS:Server 2012
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

So far I think the biggest problem with the new UI is that it does not come with instructions. Unlike modern video games, there is no "tutorial level" showing you how to do things. I recall back to my first time with the Release Preview, I did not know how to reboot or close a (then Metro) modern application. I had found out how to restart by accident! I like to think I'm fairly good with computers enough to figure out interfaces and now I pretty much know how to get around. BUT the problem for my experience is that I immediately go to the Desktop and move about the OS manually!

Also that "bug vs feature" question, I read it on the Register yesterday.... That is the BEST (maybe WORST) question ever!

I wanted to add this complaint about Task Manager, where now it doesn't show you the file name for processes. Instead, it reads information out of the EXE itself. This is helpful, but not when software companies take shortcuts!

Posted Image

The first one is a Battery Optimization software, the second is Wireless switch software. Both of these programs are the new Windows 8 version for the notebook I am working on. Both are 32bit apps that are running on a 64bit OS.

Edited by Tripredacus, 26 October 2012 - 08:24 AM.

MSFN RULES | GimageX HTA for PE 3.x | lol probloms
msfn2_zpsc37c7153.jpg




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users



How to remove advertisement from MSFN