[Tripredacus]

Coffee in a clear cup? What an odd guy.

[LakotaRising]

Kelsenellenelvian, on 25 January 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

I would like to try Win8 out but after all I have read it wouldn't be a good idea because I like my PC and OS to work for me not the other way around.

I use Win8 and I didn't like it at first. It was mainly the GUI. Took awhile to get used to. But when I did, I liked it. I know what you have been reading, I have read it myself. Let me express one thing to you. No matter what others have written, the only thing that matters is your own personal experiences. I personally got frustrated trying to figure it all out at first and everyday that I was on it was torture, but when I did get used to it, it was pure Heaven. I cannot see downgrading back to Win7 now.

Anyways, my main reason for posting in this thread is to say: Don't let others tell you not to try it or use it. These are their personal experiences on it. All that actually matters is what your experiences uncover.

[Tripredacus]

I certainly have gotten used to Windows 8 interface by now, but only as a requirement of developing for it. No other reason for me to actually use the OS for a workstation or personal use. I have no problem with the pop-outs and hot spots and whatever else... but I realise through my usage that I never use the Start Screen for anything!

So I see Windows 8 a little like Vista for me, I never really "used" Vista either. I may change around if there really is a $200 Surface tablet, I'd get one of those.

[LakotaRising]

Tripredacus, on 16 October 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

I certainly have gotten used to Windows 8 interface by now, but only as a requirement of developing for it. No other reason for me to actually use the OS for a workstation or personal use. I have no problem with the pop-outs and hot spots and whatever else... but I realise through my usage that I never use the Start Screen for anything!

So I see Windows 8 a little like Vista for me, I never really "used" Vista either. I may change around if there really is a $200 Surface tablet, I'd get one of those.

I don't see it as a Vista. I used Vista for a few weeks and downgraded to WinXP. I use the Start Screen to access every thing I use. I very seldom am on the desktop. I do think that MS should have included an app to make other software into Metro appz by default. But that's just me. In fact, everything that I run, including my games like Skyrim, New Vegas, Fallout 3 and Oblivion, play much smoother under Win8 then they ever did under Win7.

Look, I'm not a fanboi of Win8, but in my experience, I use what works.

[jaclaz]

Tripredacus, on 16 October 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Coffee in a clear cup? What an odd guy.

From the colour of it it seems like coffee made by the nutrimatic:

Quote

NUTRI-MATIC MACHINE
This machine provides the user with a plastic cup filled with a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea coffee.

The way it functions is very interesting. When the Drink button is pressed it makes an instant but highly detailed examination of the subject's taste buds, a spectroscopic analysis of the subject's metabolism and then sends tiny experimental signals down the neural pathways to the taste centers of the subject's brain to see what is likely to be well received.

However, no one knew quite why it does this because it then invariably delivers a cupful of liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea coffee.

The Nutri-Matic was designed and manufactured by the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation whose complaints department now covers all the major land masses of the first three planets in the Sirius Tau Star system.

The first question that come to mind is:

• how big must become Redmond to host the whole MS complaints department?

or - maybe more suited - :

• how many new jobs will it create in India and east countries?

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

LakotaRising, on 16 October 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

I use Win8 and I didn't like it at first. It was mainly the GUI. Took awhile to get used to. But when I did, I liked it. I know what you have been reading, I have read it myself. Let me express one thing to you. No matter what others have written, the only thing that matters is your own personal experiences. I personally got frustrated trying to figure it all out at first and everyday that I was on it was torture, but when I did get used to it, it was pure Heaven. I cannot see downgrading back to Win7 now.

LakotaRising,

Welcome to the discussion.

I've been using various versions of Windows 8 since the Developer Preview, and honestly my own experience has been far from heavenly; I won't be buying Windows 8 if I can avoid it. I do my work off the Desktop. I got tired of having repeatedly to make a conscious decision NOT to put the mouse pointer in the lower left corner, lest the Start Menu pop up unwanted, and NOT to put the pointer in the upper or lower right corners, lest the Charms bar spring out unwanted. These distractions interrupted the flow of my work.

I found that the Start Screen didn't offer me anything I wanted that the Start Menu already does. But worse, the Start Screen takes over the whole monitor, which makes it harder to follow complicated instructions in Internet Explorer or a help or program window. The Start Screen just gets in the way of everything.

My oher dissatisfaction with Windows 8 is esthetic in nature. I look at my screen all day long, and the Win8 environment is so much less visually appealing to me. The 3D effect is gone, everything has a flat look; the glass effect in windows is gone; and dull pastel colors dominate throughout.

Some folks might actually prefer that, but then in Vista and 7 you could disable the eye candy and go with a dull Home Basic-type look if you wished. Windows 8 removes that choice -- and the lack of user choice in Windows 8 is what really bothers most of us in this thread.

Ultimately, the concern is that Microsoft will expand this lack of choice and remove the Desktop altogether in a future version of its OS, so that we can only work within the "Metro" interface, which allows you to have at most two applications open at the same time, with one limited to a smaller area of the screen. It depends how you use Windows: if you never show more than two windows on the screen at a time, you might be OK with that limitation; but if you often need to have three or more windows of the same size open and showing at the same time, you will find the Metro UI to be a crippled, confining experience.

For many of us, the beauty of Windows has always been the freedom to customize our environment and experience to suit our individual needs and preferences. The concern is that, with Windows 8, Microsoft is signaling an intention to channel and restrict the way that we interact with our computers. My hope is that even folks who like the "Metro" interface will understand that problem, and let Microsoft know it.

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 16 October 2012 - 12:10 PM

[JorgeA]

More tepid receptions to Windows 8 from the business world:

Quote

The new software presents companies with a training issue they haven't faced since Windows 95 first brought innovations such as the Start button, which is replaced by a Start screen in Windows 8.

Quote

any hesitance in the business world could be problematic, especially delays in purchasing that give the iPad and other non-Windows tablets more time to seep into businesses and undermine Windows' long-standing dominance...

Quote

Jack Harris, director of information technology for health-marketing firm Aisle7 in Portland, Ore., said he tested a company engineer to see how easy it was to figure out new features without training. The timed test involved logging off a computer, switching from the traditional desktop mode to the tile-based interface using just a mouse, and restarting a PC, all in under two minutes.

The engineer didn't quite make it. "And this is a really smart guy," Mr. Harris said.

--JorgeA

[LakotaRising]

JorgeA, on 16 October 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

LakotaRising, on 16 October 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

I use Win8 and I didn't like it at first. It was mainly the GUI. Took awhile to get used to. But when I did, I liked it. I know what you have been reading, I have read it myself. Let me express one thing to you. No matter what others have written, the only thing that matters is your own personal experiences. I personally got frustrated trying to figure it all out at first and everyday that I was on it was torture, but when I did get used to it, it was pure Heaven. I cannot see downgrading back to Win7 now.

LakotaRising,

Welcome to the discussion.

I've been using various versions of Windows 8 since the Developer Preview, and honestly my own experience has been far from heavenly; I won't be buying Windows 8 if I can avoid it. I do my work off the Desktop. I got tired of having repeatedly to make a conscious decision NOT to put the mouse pointer in the lower left corner, lest the Start Menu pop up unwanted, and NOT to put the pointer in the upper or lower right corners, lest the Charms bar spring out unwanted. These distractions interrupted the flow of my work.

I found that the Start Screen didn't offer me anything I wanted that the Start Menu already does. But worse, the Start Screen takes over the whole monitor, which makes it harder to follow complicated instructions in Internet Explorer or a help or program window. The Start Screen just gets in the way of everything.

My oher dissatisfaction with Windows 8 is esthetic in nature. I look at my screen all day long, and the Win8 environment is so much less visually appealing to me. The 3D effect is gone, everything has a flat look; the glass effect in windows is gone; and dull pastel colors dominate throughout.

Some folks might actually prefer that, but then in Vista and 7 you could disable the eye candy and go with a dull Home Basic-type look if you wished. Windows 8 removes that choice -- and the lack of user choice in Windows 8 is what really bothers most of us in this thread.

Ultimately, the concern is that Microsoft will expand this lack of choice and remove the Desktop altogether in a future version of its OS, so that we can only work within the "Metro" interface, which allows you to have at most two applications open at the same time, with one limited to a smaller area of the screen. It depends how you use Windows: if you never show more than two windows on the screen at a time, you might be OK with that limitation; but if you often need to have three or more windows of the same size open and showing at the same time, you will find the Metro UI to be a crippled, confining experience.

For many of us, the beauty of Windows has always been the freedom to customize our environment and experience to suit our individual needs and preferences. The concern is that, with Windows 8, Microsoft is signaling an intention to channel and restrict the way that we interact with our computers. My hope is that even folks who like the "Metro" interface will understand that problem, and let Microsoft know it.

--JorgeA

Well, you could always give Start8 a shot. Or an app similar. But in my opinion, if your going to go to that extreme, you might as well stay on Win7.

[JorgeA]

There is a report out that Microsoft is setting itself up for failure on the Windows 8 Phone front:

Quote

It has been a few months since Microsoft unveiled Windows Phone 8, its newest smartphone reboot and the successor to Windows Phone 7.5. In all this time, with the launch just weeks away, app developers have yet to get a software development kit (SDK) to build apps for the new OS. The company claims this is being done to keep the features a secret. This position is either completely clueless or an intentional misrepresentation, and it puts the future of Windows Phone 8 in jeopardy.

I'm curious to hear what those in this thread who are developers, think of this situation. Is this normal and nothing to worry about, or a sign of a real problem?

--JorgeA

[Win2k3EE]

@LakotaRising: you don't get it, do you?

It's the freedom of choice that WAS REMOVED from Windows 8, not the start menu.

Me, I don't give a rat's a** over Windows 8 as long as I have other (better IMHO) options - but IF we allow MS to take away OUR FREEDOM OF CHOICE, this means we're no more than sheep - like in the Samsung Galaxy III advertisement.

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

Microsoft reveals Surface RT pricing, starts at $499 for 32GB ( TechSpot 2012-10-16 )

Quote

The lineup starts at $499 for the 32GB model or $599 with the addition of a black multi-touch TouchCover keyboard case, while a 64GB variant that already includes the TouchCover keyboard is available for $699. Storage-for-storage the base model is $100 cheaper than the equivalent third-generation iPad, which is available at $499 for 16GB, $599 for 32GB or $699 for 64GB.

Additional TouchCovers in a range of colors will be $120 each and the TypeCover keyboard is $130. As a refresher, the former measures 3mm thick and has a multitouch keyboard as well as a trackpad, while the latter adds 5mm to the Surface’s thickness and has a tactile keyboard and a full touchpad with clickable buttons.

Pricing for Microsoft Surface Tablets and Covers Revealed ( Tom's Hardware 2012-10-16 )

Quote

The 32GB ARM-based Surface will sell for $499 sans Touch Cover. You can pay an additional $100 for the 32GB plus Touch Cover. There's also a $700 64GB model that will come with a Touch Cover included. It's not clear if Microsoft plans to sell the 64GB without the Touch Cover. If you buy the 32GB without the Touch Cover and change your mind, you'll be paying $120 to buy it separately. The Type cover will set you back ten bucks more at $130.

Well that is clear as mud! No, not for us who understand the geek speak, but for the other 99% that they are trying to reach. ~sigh~ Microsoft does the same thing with tangled prices and SKUs for their flagship software like Windows and Office, why shouldn't they create a mess with their toy tablet, err netbook, err tab-book, err whatever. Here is the mistake I think they made and how they made it. Some of the Windows 8 and Metro criticism made it into the Redmond boardroom and memories of Vista caused them to huddle and do that pricing thing on the low-end RT tablet by changing it from $599 with cover to $499 + $100. This way all the headlines today say "Surface Pricing Starts at $499". The next one up is $699 with cover, so it is frickin' obvious the lower one was originally $599 with cover! They really have contempt for their customers.



Microsoft stock price nearly flat today after Surface reveal ( NeoWin 2012-10-16 )

Yeah, I know that it doesn't really mean anything, especially with MSFT resembling a flatlined EKG for a decade. But watching the fanboys have strokes is cheap entertainment. Especially when NeoWin, aka Fanboy Central, writes this ...

Quote

After rising briefly in the middle part of the trading day on NASDAQ, Microsoft's stock price settled at the end of the day at $29.49 a share. That's a dip, compared to the previous day's trading, of just two cents, or 0.07 percent. That would seem to suggest that investors don't think the Surface will be a disaster for Microsoft, but they also don't seem to believe it will be a huge boost for the company's financial position either.

By contrast, Apple's stock price went up by 2.4 percent in trading today. Apple announced earlier today it would be holding a press event on October 23rd, where the company is highly expected to reveal a smaller version of its iPad and possibly more hardware products.

The only way that thing will rise is when Ballmer is fired or resigns and Sinofsky follows him out the door.

[Tripredacus]

Today I suddenly can equate a similarity between Surface and the Sega Saturn. The circumstances are not exactly similar, but close enough for me to construct a post.

Surface
As previously mentioned above:

Quote

The lineup starts at $499 for the 32GB model or $599 with the addition of a black multi-touch TouchCover keyboard case, while a 64GB variant that already includes the TouchCover keyboard is available for $699. Storage-for-storage the base model is $100 cheaper than the equivalent third-generation iPad, which is available at $499 for 16GB, $599 for 32GB or $699 for 64GB.

Sega Saturn
In a slightly different approach, originally the initial prices for Surface was $199, which would have put it into competition with the Android tablets. This price came from Microsoft or someone at Microsoft or affiliated with them. Prior to pricing for the Saturn being announced, the speculative figure came from industry analysts and was expected to retail for $500 in the US. Then this happened:

Quote

Tom Kalinske, Sega of America CEO, was scheduled to give the first keynote address, scheduled for 0830 that morning. He remarked on the arrival of the nextgen wave in his speech, noting that the combined advertising costs for all three of the major players (Nintendo, Sega, Sony) could approach US$250 million, with another US$100 million on top of that handled by retailers selling the systems in question. He then sprang the surprise on E3 that Sega had been planning for two months. Sega was still going to officially launch the Saturn on 2 September as originally announced; however, it would start shipping the console today. As a stunned audience listened, Kalinske put on his best pitchman demeanor and informed them that Saturn would be available effective that day for the low retail price of US$399.

The quote comes from SegaBase. I am aware that a lot of info on SegaBase has been refuted, but the E3 story is pretty solid and worth sharing. So I can see that Microsoft has made itself a problem by initially preparing to create a Surface tablet to compete in the Kindle/Android market by offering a low cost product. They should have realised that those devices are actually in competition with the tablet market as well. So I think it is a mistake to only create a Surface device to compete with Apple and maybe the high end Samsung tablets and totally ignore the low cost market which is ripe for the picking.

Sony Playstation

Quote

Next up was Sony president Olaf Olaffson, there to give the second keynote address of E3. His listed topic was the future of videogames; but he was really there to tout the virtues of Ken Kuratagi's PlayStation and the place it would earn in the growing 32-bit console market. About two-thirds of the way through his address, he interrupted himself to call up Steve Race, one of the PlayStation's designers and president of Sony Computer's newly formed U.S. subsidiary, to tell the audience more about the PlayStation. Race walked up to the podium, a thick sheaf of papers in hand, and the crowd braced itself for a long and boring technical dissertation. Instead, Race laid the papers down on the podium, leaned into the microphone, and said just one thing: "US$299." The audience exploded with applause and Race was treated to a standing ovation.

Apple iPad mini

Quote

Sources have suggested that Apple will price the entry-level iPad Mini at around £180 to £200, compared with around £159 for the base Kindle Fire and Nexus 7.

Sources
SegaBase
DigitalSpy

[JorgeA]

Tripredacus,

Any ideas as to why Microsoft might have changed course and upped the price of the Surface to match the iPad rather than Android tablets?

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 16 October 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

how big must become Redmond to host the whole MS complaints department?

No increase is necessary. Their customer complaint strategy requires a staff of exactly two:

Spoiler

Microsoft Complaints Department

 see hear no evil.jpg (9.44K)
Number of downloads: 1

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 17 October 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Here is the mistake I think they made and how they made it. Some of the Windows 8 and Metro criticism made it into the Redmond boardroom and memories of Vista caused them to huddle and do that pricing thing on the low-end RT tablet by changing it from $599 with cover to $499 + $100. This way all the headlines today say "Surface Pricing Starts at $499". The next one up is $699 with cover, so it is frickin' obvious the lower one was originally $599 with cover! They really have contempt for their customers.

Naaah , the original price was $599 allright, but it was made by $500 + 99 of the cover , and they are not going to actually charge you $120 if you change your idea, only $119.99.

Seriously, sometimes I do wonder how such senseless prices as the *9.00 or *9.99 are still in use (not only by Microsoft) it's not anymore the 19th century....
http://en.wikipedia....logical_pricing

On other news (but still numerology related ), ever heard of anyone announcing a release on the 26th of October or anyone inviting to an UNdisclosed product announcement on October 23rd?
http://www.mirror.co...e-price-1384082


jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 17 October 2012 - 11:24 AM

[Tripredacus]

JorgeA, on 17 October 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Tripredacus,

Any ideas as to why Microsoft might have changed course and upped the price of the Surface to match the iPad rather than Android tablets?

--JorgeA

I'm fairly certain that the original $200 price would have Microsoft be in the red for at least a year or two before recouping profits from the app store. They would definately be selling the Surface at a loss to begin with, similar to how Verizon began installing FiOS to customers for free. The idea is to get the product out there, wow people by the price and then recoup the losses later with something else.

Microsoft was in high hopes for Windows 8 when that figure first came out. Since then to now, we know that customers aren't sold on Windows 8 yet. Intel spoke out about it, game companies spoke out about it, app developers spoke out about it (and the new Visual Studio) and those complainers about the missing Start Menu. And we have seen a recent article that the amount of apps available on the Store itself is still pretty paltry. I can say "from the inside" that Windows 8 also brings a lot of changes and requirements not previously seen in Windows releases. There is a lot of push back by ODMs, resulting in a low participation rate from them leading to certain compatibility issues.

See, Microsoft has been banking on the Metro Style Apps, the paid ones. Profit sharing between the developers/publishers, Microsoft and OEMs, all with purchases or microtransactions. But we have seen from all the negative hype about it (just look at this thread) likely directly led to the lackluster selection of apps in the store. This means that the initial forcast of App purchases is probably greatly reduced by now.... and that the Surface product price HAD to change, since I bet (I have no confirmation on this, just a hunch) that the cheap Surface price was set because they could offset the losses based on App Store revenue.

[LakotaRising]

Win2k3EE, on 17 October 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

@LakotaRising: you don't get it, do you?

It's the freedom of choice that WAS REMOVED from Windows 8, not the start menu.

Me, I don't give a rat's a** over Windows 8 as long as I have other (better IMHO) options - but IF we allow MS to take away OUR FREEDOM OF CHOICE, this means we're no more than sheep - like in the Samsung Galaxy III advertisement.

Believe me I get it. But it's my choice to use it. It runs my games smoother then Win7 x64 ever did. I use what works. So I use it at this time. If Win8 stops working for me, then I go back to Win7. Simple. But the moment Steam works on Linux natively for all my games, it's bye-bye Windows for good.

[LakotaRising]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 17 October 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

~snipped~

Microsoft stock price nearly flat today after Surface reveal ( NeoWin 2012-10-16 )

Yeah, I know that it doesn't really mean anything, especially with MSFT resembling a flatlined EKG for a decade. But watching the fanboys have strokes is cheap entertainment. Especially when NeoWin, aka Fanboy Central, writes this ...

Quote

After rising briefly in the middle part of the trading day on NASDAQ, Microsoft's stock price settled at the end of the day at $29.49 a share. That's a dip, compared to the previous day's trading, of just two cents, or 0.07 percent. That would seem to suggest that investors don't think the Surface will be a disaster for Microsoft, but they also don't seem to believe it will be a huge boost for the company's financial position either.

By contrast, Apple's stock price went up by 2.4 percent in trading today. Apple announced earlier today it would be holding a press event on October 23rd, where the company is highly expected to reveal a smaller version of its iPad and possibly more hardware products.

The only way that thing will rise is when Ballmer is fired or resigns and Sinofsky follows him out the door.

Fanboys at Neowin? Your quite mistaken. There is a mix of people. Some there are like me. I use it because it works for me, but hate what it looks like. Then you have people there that hate it and you also have the ones who love it. So why not stop all these insane posts about "Win8 fanboys of Neowin".

This post has been edited by LakotaRising: 17 October 2012 - 01:00 PM

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

LakotaRising, on 17 October 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Fanboys at Neowin? Your quite mistaken. There is a mix of people. Some there are like me. I use it because it works for me, but hate what it looks like. Then you have people there that hate it and you also have the ones who love it. So why not stop all these insane posts about "Win8 fanboys of Neowin".

Who said everyone over there is a Fanboy? You're not the only one reading and posting at NeoWin. Some of us, like me have been there for a decade and are well-suited to recognize changes like when it has been over-run by generation Xbox spoiled children. So obviously the term "Fanboy Central" does not mean that everyone there is a Fanboy because I would have to be one also. Please develop a sense of humor, your blood pressure will thank you for it.

For example here is a thread over there from about two months ago that isn't by a Fanboy. It is quite funny because the Fanboys that it lampoons all blindly jump in reveling in their cluelessness over the topic, which highlights their own typical Fanboy rebuttal to adults criticizing the forced Metro-only removed-StartMenu paradigm: "If you don't like it just pin your program to the taskbar and STFU!"

How Pro Windows 8 users want Anti Windows 8 users to use Windows 8 ( NeoWin Forums 2012-08-09 )

A picture is worth a thousand words ...

Spoiler

( original )

The responses are hilarious precisely because they don't get it. The image demonstrates exactly what they impulsively tell the so-called "haters" to do, yet they still cannot understand it! Cognitive Dissonance.


EDIT: updated image URL, and again

This post has been edited by CharlotteTheHarlot: 06 May 2013 - 06:28 PM

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

Microsoft Turns the Surface Tablet Into a Skateboard ( Tom's Hardware 2012-10-17 )

Sinofsky uses Surface as a skateboard, Tony Hawk is jealous ( NeoWin 2012-10-17 )

Will this be the next controversy? I mean, is it legitimate or another half-truth? Was it wheels attached to a Surface or merely a tablet strapped onto a skateboard? Did it still work? Where is the video? Why didn't they have Ballmer standing on it?


With Surface looming, Microsoft fails to explain Windows 8 vs. Windows RT to consumers ( The Verge 2012-10-17 )

They even have some of the quotes from the salesmen in nice little graphics like this ...



The thrust of the article is about the ignorance of salespeople in charge of selling the thing in the first place. No surprise considering how well managed Microsoft is these days.

The larger point is the Windows RT ( and WP8 ) versus regular Windows 8 sharing the identical interface, not to menton the name "Windows" is very problematic. High confusion factor and pretty much par for the course for the same Microsoft braintrust that stepped into the Metro naming fiasco. I would go further and say it is intentional obfuscation and is one of the reasons the EULA has been changed to thwart class action lawsuits. Does anyone really believe that they are not counting on people mistakenly believing that RT will run x86 Windows software? It should have been a completely new name, not "Windows", because it is NOT "Windows" at all. It is disgraceful and deceptive and they are seriously sticking their necks out again.

Another reason for the EULA change will be evident when novice computer users and n00bs see all the smiling people on the commercials happily swiping their screens and they then run out and buy the upgrade and go crazy poking and prodding their "legacy" displays wondering why the thing just doesn't work! I noted way upthread that we should watch the commercials for a: "DISCLAIMER: Touchscreen Display Required for Swiping" to see if their legal department isn't totally incompetent. The few videos and commercials I have seen so far do not indicate any disclaimer.

Yet a third reason for the EULA change might be for those Darwin Award contenders that purchase desktop touchscreens and spend hours and hours reaching out and wonder why their arms have turned to Jello.

IMHO, there is a lot of incompetence or shadiness in this whole thing. It is about the sale, the trend, the fad, but NOT the user. It really never has been, but it is getting worse. The net result of this experiment will be higher computer prices and less value for more money for the first time, ever. This Windows 8 thing must crash and burn for the good of everyone involved. That's what I think.