[JorgeA]

belgianguy,

Thanks, you've given me some more ideas about how to use OneNote.

Been a busy couple of days, but this is definitely on my to-do list. I guess the first thing I could do with OneNote is to put in a reminder to start exploring it!

--JorgeA

[cyberpyr8]

JorgeA, on 20 March 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

cyberpyr8, on 19 March 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I have been running Windows 8 from the Developers Preview until now with the Consumer Preview and it has not gotten any better for me.

cyberpyr8,

My displeasure with Windows 8 has eased a little bit since the Consumer Preview came out, as they made some of the functions and utilities easier to get to. But by and large it's still harder to get things done in Win8 than in Win7, and I still have to look at that fugly Metro start screen every so often. Every time I saw XP's default "Luna" theme I expected the Teletubbies to come hopping over the crest, but the Metro screen makes me think I'm stuck in a kindergarten. I wouldn't want that on a phone or a tablet, let alone a 23" monitor. The iPads and Android screens I've seen out there look so much sleeker.

That was an excellent promo for Office, BTW -- glad you posted it. If I didn't have Office already, it would make me go out and buy it, no joke. I'll even start poking into OneNote, a program I've never ever opened.

--JorgeA

Thanks man! Microsoft spared no expense in making the Office video.

I think the difference in how the XP desktop looked versus basic functionality in Windows 8 is why I am so frustrated. I knew I could easily change the look of XP but they have changed how Windows works in Win8. I think it will work well on a tablet and be more intuitive than it is on a desktop. But they really need to fix it for desktops.

[JorgeA]

cyberpyr8, on 21 March 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

I think the difference in how the XP desktop looked versus basic functionality in Windows 8 is why I am so frustrated. I knew I could easily change the look of XP but they have changed how Windows works in Win8. I think it will work well on a tablet and be more intuitive than it is on a desktop. But they really need to fix it for desktops.

cyberpyr8,

I agree with every single word you said there!

Regarding a fix for desktops, check out this teaser:

Quote

There's so much more to the desktop, including a deeper understanding of how the Metro experiences pervade (or invade) into this environment, significant enhancements to multi-monitor support that most benefit desktop users, the coming SkyDrive app that will provide cloud extensibility to the file system, the ability to boot directly to the desktop and skip the Start screen, and more.

[emphasis added]

Thurrott seems to have a schizophrenic approach to Windows 8. In one article, he'll say people need to stop complaining about Metro and get with the program (so to speak), next article he'll see things clearly and acknowledge that Metro isn't the best thing since sliced bread. (For example, see the rest of the quoted paragraph on his site: he intends to "stick to" the desktop interface.) But he seems to have good contacts within Microsoft, and if there's any truth to this teaser, it'll be the best Windows news of the year.

--JorgeA

[cyberpyr8]

JorgeA, on 23 March 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Regarding a fix for desktops, check out this teaser:

Quote

There's so much more to the desktop, including a deeper understanding of how the Metro experiences pervade (or invade) into this environment, significant enhancements to multi-monitor support that most benefit desktop users, the coming SkyDrive app that will provide cloud extensibility to the file system, the ability to boot directly to the desktop and skip the Start screen, and more.

[emphasis added]

Thurrott seems to have a schizophrenic approach to Windows 8. In one article, he'll say people need to stop complaining about Metro and get with the program (so to speak), next article he'll see things clearly and acknowledge that Metro isn't the best thing since sliced bread. (For example, see the rest of the quoted paragraph on his site: he intends to "stick to" the desktop interface.) But he seems to have good contacts within Microsoft, and if there's any truth to this teaser, it'll be the best Windows news of the year.

--JorgeA

I read that article too and I love the new explorer, task manager and ISO mounting features. In fact, I wish I could get them on Windows 7 right now. I have been trying to run Win 8 on my laptop but the experience is just horrible. Worse yet, I think that consumers are going to be confused by it. That switching back and forth in addition to multiple versions of IE (Metro and desktop) will not make it a smooth transition from the polished Windows 7 experience people are used to. It will be even worse for the XP crowd stepping up to a new PC. I am a heavy Windows user and it frustrates me when I know what it is trying to do! Imagine your grandmother or mother trying to use this and not knowing why her link from an email isn't loading due to lack of flash on the metro IE. The hidden menus and commands just compound it all.

I listen to Paul Thurrott on Windows Weekly and read his site every week. I agree that he is flip flopping his tone on Windows 8 every time he talks about it. I almost feel like he is apologizing for the bad features while trying to stay positive. I love Windows and I have been running it since the Windows 2 days! But I don't see this being a success. I think that Windows 9 will get it right (or at least better), I just hope it hasn't hurt them too bad by that point. Vista really put Windows in a bad light to businesses and consumers. This could be even worse. I hope I am wrong but I don't think it is going to be well received.

This post has been edited by cyberpyr8: 23 March 2012 - 07:17 AM

[MagicAndre1981]

Sinofsky is schizophrenic. In the Startscreen blog he defended the removal of the Startmenu by a drop of 11% usage based on telemetry. Now he posts that telemetry is not important and telemetry is not the cause of design changes

[tomasz86]

[JorgeA]

One of the best short analyses of what's going on with Microsoft and Windows 8 appeared in the comments section to this article:

Quote

In Microsoft's vision, developers will be coding for Metro/WinRT and the rich, windowing applications of Win32 are just a necessary casualty for Microsoft to gain traction in the consumer space. Thus, Win7 is really an orphaned OS, because nothing developed for Metro/WinRT would run on it.

Win8 is totally disruptive. It is not a "change", it is really a new, mostly mobile OS that does run Win32 apps (as a concession to backwards compatibility). Users who want to continue with rich, windowing desktop applications must transition to something else. Maybe in the future, Metro/WinRT will become capable of supporting rich, windowing applications but I do not see this happening. If, in MS's vision, most computing is going to happen on smartphones and tablets, why bother providing windowing capabilities to WinRT? In addition, touch necessitates simplification.

What do you think of the idea of Windows 7 as an "orphaned OS"?

Read the entire comment by "ADRz" dated March 24 at 04:00 PM -- all of it is worthwhile. And Paul Thurrott seems to be having more second thoughts about Windows 8 -- see the article itself.

--JorgeA

[CoffeeFiend]

cyberpyr8, on 23 March 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

I read that article too and I love the new explorer, task manager and ISO mounting features.

The funny thing is, that's the same 3 features everybody wants out of Win8. Every post I see everywhere more or less that:

Quote

New explorer, new task manager, ISO mounting, but Metro must DIE!

The first two are just "nice to have" (but we can definitely live without it), the 3rd merely saves you from installing a freeware app like daemon tools lite, but the most important part by far is disabling Metro, and that's the one thing they won't let you do...

cyberpyr8, on 23 March 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

the experience is just horrible. Worse yet, I think that consumers are going to be confused by it.

+1 to that.

cyberpyr8, on 23 March 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

he is apologizing for the bad features while trying to stay positive

Damning with faint praise? Of course he can't actually say something bad about it. Thankfully we're not sock puppets and therefore we can.

But yeah, long time user here too (MS-DOS days), and I'm totally convinced Win8 will flop FAR worse than ME or Vista ever did. It's a huge bag of fail, and nobody wants of it understandably. Enthusiasts and fanboys alike are quickly losing interest in Win8 before it's even released. That's saying something! Betas should have people all excited (like the Photoshop CS6 Beta which is totally AWESOME!), not angered, worried, sad and disgusted like this (and already looking forward to its replacement and/or moving to other operating systems).

JorgeA, on 24 March 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Win8 is totally disruptive. It is not a "change", it is really a new, mostly mobile OS that does run Win32 apps (as a concession to backwards compatibility).

Which is what I've been saying all along. Tell users that all their Win32 apps are now legacy junk, while these apps are the sole reason to use Windows in the first place, also giving the finger to all devs of the said apps at the same time. And then force everyone to use their desktops as a smart phone with dinky apps that only work on Win8.

JorgeA, on 24 March 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

What do you think of the idea of Windows 7 as an "orphaned OS"?

It's not Win7 that's orphaned here, it's the entire Windows line, its history and its very purpose at the same time. They're making the desktop, multitasking, and "traditional" apps (without which Windows is completely worthless) 2nd class citizens (or killing it altogether on ARM tablets) while forcing Metro on you. It's like Windows, but without all the good stuff from it, and with Metro crammed down your throat. Whoever thought this was a good idea needs to be fired NOW.

[Win2k3EE]

This new metro-apps are for retards, if you ask me. Sinofsky definitely has some childhood issues, probably because his mom didn't let him play with cubes and now his sticking his **** cubes down our throats.
Sinofsky, wake the heck up, it's a **** nightmare!

This post has been edited by Win2k3EE: 25 March 2012 - 07:07 AM

[CoffeeFiend]

Win2k3EE, on 25 March 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

This new metro-apps are for retards, if you ask me.

I thought it was Ballmer and Sinofski that went full retard myself.

VS 11 also happens to suck, the .NET framework 4.5 brings almost nothing new or worthwhile (just the async keyword which I don't see myself use too often anyway), other than dropping support for XP and Vista which together still account for more than half the computers on this planet.

They could make upgrades free for both and I still wouldn't use 'em.

[JorgeA]

Win2k3EE, on 25 March 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Sinofsky definitely has some childhood issues, probably because his mom didn't let him play with cubes and now his sticking his **** cubes down our throats.

I was laughing outloud at this, till I remembered that I'm the one (along with millions of others) who's being told to play with these stupid blocks or find a different playground.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

CoffeeFiend, on 25 March 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

I thought it was Ballmer and Sinofski that went full retard myself.

CoffeeFiend,

Very funny (and appropriate), I'd forgotten that scene from the movie!

CoffeeFiend, on 25 March 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

VS 11 also happens to suck, the .NET framework 4.5 brings almost nothing new or worthwhile (just the async keyword which I don't see myself use too often anyway), other than dropping support for XP and Vista which together still account for more than half the computers on this planet.

Uh-oh, looks like the obsolescing of my Vista has started. Well, at least I have Vista SP3 (Windows 7) to fall back on.

BTW, I'm curious what you, as a developer, think about ADRz's take on MS's strategy:

Quote

Microsoft wants developers to code for Metro/WinRT like crazy and it needs to "offer" to them hundreds of millions of desktop users to entice them. If users are able to "customize" their desktop, most would prefer to customize it according to their usage patterns; Then developers would hardly be enticed to developed for Metro/WinRT. Just face it. Microsoft needs at least 200,000 Metro/WinRT applications to compete in the mobile space. It would not get this number with its current market share. It can only achieve it by the "tablificattion of the desktop". OEMs sell 150 million PCs a year. Converting all of them into "tablets", would provide an immense incentive for programmers to code for Metro/WinRT.

--JorgeA

[CoffeeFiend]

JorgeA, on 25 March 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Uh-oh, looks like the obsolescing of my Vista has started.

You needn't be worried. Developers aren't stupid enough to drop support for so many computers anytime soon. I easily see us supporting XP for another 5 years at least (unlike at MS, client's king, and if we drop support they'll want our head on a silver platter) and Vista even longer. In this case it's MS' new tools that won't get used -- especially when it had so little new going for it and that the new dev tools suck too.

JorgeA, on 25 March 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

I'm curious what you, as a developer, think about ADRz's take on MS's strategy

That it's a failed strategy regardless. There's 2 options for Windows tablets:
-x86/x64 tablets which are heavy, bulky, cumbersome, overly expensive, etc (very much unlike a tablet e.g. Lenovo's Ideapad Yoga) but have the advantage of being able to run traditional apps that are meant to be used with the keyboard/mouse and that will suck on a tablet anyway. Its only advantage is that you can awkwardly run software that's ill-suited for touch in the first place. I don't see this catching on any better than XP Tablet edition did.
-ARM tablets which have absolutely nothing in common with traditional Windows besides the name. It doesn't actually run anything useful. It doesn't offer users or developers one single advantage over any other tablet OS. Less apps to begin with for users (I sure wouldn't buy one). And without users there's no money to make selling apps either. It's a LOT more like Windows Phone (which clearly doesn't sell) than Windows. Best case scenario, people port their iOS and Android apps to it, and it just becomes yet another tablet with the same stuff as all the others. But since MS wants to restrict the number of these in the first place, that all their mobile device attempts always fail pretty badly (Zune, WP, etc) and that their online services tend to suck (I don't expect the app store to be any better) I clearly don't see a bright future for it.

Quote

Then developers would hardly be enticed to developed for Metro/WinRT.

We have no plans to develop for Metro/WinRT anytime soon, no matter where it might run. There's zero demand for it, it has essentially zero market share, and it's not cost effective in any way, shape or form.

Quote

It can only achieve it by the "tablificattion of the desktop"

That's their plan. but the end result will be that they merely succeeded in creating their very worst desktop OS ever. If anything, turning our desktop OS into such a disaster made me associate Metro with concepts like "fail" and "suck", and so will tons of others (just like what "Vista" now means to most people). Yep, now I'll certainly want to develop for that and then buy a poor tablet where the same garbage I already loathe is forced onto me.

Win9 can't come out soon enough and they can't afford to screw that one up so badly either. Then again, it's kind of like Intel does with their architecture (tick-tock), except that for MS it's more like Tick-Flop. Until then we'll keep hearing about downgrade rights for new PCs, people that need help upgrading their newly bought PC to Win7, start menu replacements apps and so on. Meanwhile, we're stuck with Win7 for the next few years (until around 2018 I guess) which will turn stale just like XP did after so many years.

[jaclaz]

I'll risk going OT (actually going OT ) to post a snippet I really liked, but unrelated as being of a much more "generic" nature:
http://lea.hamradio....sb_software.htm

Quote

Modern software is horrible.

If you give a software guy the task of adding 2 + 2, he will bring together a bunch of huge software toolboxes and libraries, write a few Java and Python scripts plus modify a few configuration files...
Then he'll present you with a 500MB monster that will take 3 seconds of crunching on a X GHz processor, and will produce a result of 3.85

...and he will be proud of it, because it is fully web enabled, symmetrically virtualized, object oriented and compliant with the latest client-server transaction model.

YUCK!

jaclaz

[Joseph_sw]

M$ definetely going overboard with their "Forced-Obselescene Plan"

[Tripredacus]

I was thinking of a different angle for Win8 yesterday. I was at a family gathering and we talked about tablets in the Enterprise. Almost no companies are allowing them into the corporate network, but that could actually change with Windows 8. The only exception would be WOA, which I heard can't be used to join a domain. But again that's just tablets, where I think Win8 would be just fine.

[cyberpyr8]

Why is this video not playing the first time you start up Windows 8? I think that they need to do something like this for the final release. Sort of like the XP first time startup. I have actually been running Mint Linux on my laptop with a Win7 VM on to of it because I was so frustrated with Win8. I may load it up again and give it another try.

http://windows.micro...arted?page=vid2

[MagicAndre1981]

Yes! New ClassicShell brings a Startmenu software which works better than Metro-Hell or other 3rd party solutions like ViStart:

 ClassicShell_Win8_CP_Startmenu.png (444.95K)
Number of downloads: 17

[cyberpyr8]

MagicAndre1981, on 26 March 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Yes! New ClassicShell brings a Startmenu software which works better than Metro-Hell or other 3rd party solutions like ViStart:

ClassicShell_Win8_CP_Startmenu.png

Thank you MagicAndre1981!! This is the tool to help stop the switching but give us the File Explorer and quick startup and shutdowns.

[MagicAndre1981]

Win8 makes much more fun after installing and configuring ClassicShell.