[Formfiller]

Top 100 desktop PC bestellers on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co...2WN82YN2MCBF95D

The first ranked are these:



Hurray for W8! By the way, number 3 is indeed a refurbished Pentium 4 with Windows XP on it!

http://www.amazon.co...=zg_bs_565098_3

[Formfiller]

And here are the notebook bestsellers:

http://www.amazon.co...693F5201N2CPJ8M

First ranked:



Only number 5 runs W8, the rest are Mac and W7, with the exception of the Chromebook.

This post has been edited by Formfiller: 17 February 2013 - 02:27 AM

[JorgeA]

Formfiller, on 17 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Top 100 desktop PC bestellers on Amazon:

That's pretty remarkable -- and a good find, too (thanks!). Four of the six top sellers there are Apple computers, and the only Win8 system is the last one on the list.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

JorgeA, on 17 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Four of the six top sellers there are Apple computers, and the only Win8 system is the last one on the list.

Please take into consideration that a number of people may not like to be treated as demented by kids (please read as Geniuses) in an Apple Store and resolve to buying their Mac on Amazon....

jaclaz

[bphlpt]

Maybe slightly OT, but you should enjoy this brief romp back through time to watch clips of commercials for Windows 1 -> Windows 8. You should really love the host for Windows 1. He hasn't changed much in his style since then. LOL

https://www.youtube....1&v=vTsp6WH_kkk

Cheers and Regards

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 17 February 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

JorgeA, on 17 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Four of the six top sellers there are Apple computers, and the only Win8 system is the last one on the list.

Please take into consideration that a number of people may not like to be treated as demented by kids (please read as Geniuses) in an Apple Store and resolve to buying their Mac on Amazon....

Point well taken. Still, considering the historical ratios of total PC vs. Mac unit sales, this ought to be telling the 'Softies something about how Windows 8 is being received.

--JorgeA

EDIT: missing word

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 17 February 2013 - 11:13 PM

[JorgeA]

bphlpt, on 17 February 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

Maybe slightly OT, but you should enjoy this brief romp back through time to watch clips of commercials for Windows 1 -> Windows 8. You should really love the host for Windows 1. He hasn't changed much in his style since then. LOL

https://www.youtube....1&v=vTsp6WH_kkk

Nice find, thanks!

Wow, that really was who I thought it was in the first commercial!?!

Note the line in the ad starting at about 2:40. Considering the direction Windows 8 is pointing toward, we could modify the statement there a little bit. "It used to be difficult for personal computers to do more than one thing at a time. Starting with Windows 9, it's impossible. Stop multitasking, it's dated and cheesy."

--JorgeA

[bphlpt]

JorgeA, on 17 February 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Wow, that really was who I thought it was in the first commercial!?!

Yeah. Sounded just like his "Metro, Metro, Metro!" speech, didn't it? LOL He really hasn't changed at all.

EDIT: Well, he had a little more hair then.

EDIT2: With that coat and his attitude, I guess he was going for the "humorous" infomercial/used car salesman role. Little did we know that he would keep that role for over 27 years. LOL

Cheers and Regards

This post has been edited by bphlpt: 17 February 2013 - 11:54 PM

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

bphlpt, on 17 February 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

JorgeA, on 17 February 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Wow, that really was who I thought it was in the first commercial!?!

Yeah. Sounded just like his "Metro, Metro, Metro!" speech, didn't it? LOL He really hasn't changed at all.

EDIT: Well, he had a little more hair then.

EDIT2: With that coat and his attitude, I guess he was going for the "humorous" infomercial/used car salesman role. Little did we know that he would keep that role for over 27 years. LOL

And here's who he was blatantly copying, badly ...

https://www.youtube....h?v=jc-Mhynh_pg

Even way back then they were ripping off everyting in sight

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

This fits in with the Scroogle theme ...

Spoiler

EDIT: updated image URL

This post has been edited by CharlotteTheHarlot: 15 March 2013 - 03:26 PM

[bpalone]

The one scene where it states:

Windows, the heartbeat of Microsoft.

If that's the case, then I'm guessing that version 8 has it on life support.


But, seriously, I think we may be missing the boat somewhat. I would venture to say that most everyone that hangs around here, has written a line or two of code beyond the "hello, World" ditty. Either that or has a back ground in sys admin. We all have tendency to view a computer for what it is, a tool, a tool to get things done with. Now, average Joe Schmoe has a different view of the device, it is bring him pleasure and smooth his/her psyche because they just posted a great post on facebook, twitter or whatever.

In the February, 2013 issue of PCWorld at page 77, they have a graph showing how people use their laptops, it breaks out like this:

10% for Work

56% for home/personal

34% for both

So, average Joe Schmoe would appear to be the true market driver and a software company makes money by selling software or selling support.

Now, I can't see the corporate world going for Windows 8. What I do see though, is the corporate world saying we have our XP and 7 Licenses and our software licenses, so we are going to stay right where we are. Then the hardware manufactures would have a market left for the older versions and so would we. Prices will be higher because the market is smaller, but we would still be able to get what we want.

How ever this ends up shaking out, I think we can say good bye to cheap computers. The prices are going to go up and we will be stuck with it.

[HalloweenDocument12]

bpalone, on 18 February 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

How ever this ends up shaking out, I think we can say good bye to cheap computers. The prices are going to go up and we will be stuck with it.

Say goodbye to cheap computers or low-end computers? Is the target audience of your post (this site) buying cheap computers?

Personally, I find believable erosion at the low end because there is a high amount of crossover with tablets but that crossover disappears as computers used for more specialized tasks get pricier. Tablets are generally lower in price so expect them to win the low-end market. Most business professionals, artists, and gamers aren't using the $350 Saturday morning special laptop from Walmart.

Prices may still rise even at the mid and high ends but we already have the upper bound set and it's what Apple charges, so if prices do go up, they will be between what we have now and what Apple charges, all other things being equal (hardware specs, materials, etc.)

Some people are of the opinion that computers are unrealistically cheap and have been for years, and we're seeing the results via OEMs considering leaving the market. This can actually be a good thing, even though prices rise. I'm thinking of the RAM market "crash" of 2001 where weaker vendors with lower quality products left a flooded market. Of course, price fixing via cartel was involved here, too, so it's not the purest example.

[bpalone]

HalloweenDocument12, on 18 February 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

bpalone, on 18 February 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

How ever this ends up shaking out, I think we can say good bye to cheap computers. The prices are going to go up and we will be stuck with it.

Say goodbye to cheap computers or low-end computers? Is the target audience of your post (this site) buying cheap computers?

By cheap I meant what we are paying for components these days as compared to what we spent for them in the 70's and 80's. You buy a reasonable 1 Tb hard drive for less than $100 (U.S.) today. But, I'm guessing that down the road a bit, that same drive is going to be closer $200 (U.S.). That is what I meant by cheap.

I think most users here build their own systems, with the exception of laptops.

[HalloweenDocument12]

You'd need a heavy downturn for a doubling in price. I think anything more than 25% across the board would be enough to kill the market. That's around a $125 increase for the average computer. Above this point I'd expect a snowball effect of people moving to tablets out of necessity given the enormous price disparity.

The alternative would be an increase in value, i.e. computers designed to last more than twice as long at double the price. Consumers generally don't buy into this mentality as they'd rather pay less up front, but it has worked for the automobile industry.

[JorgeA]

bpalone, on 18 February 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

So, average Joe Schmoe would appear to be the true market driver and a software company makes money by selling software or selling support.

Now, I can't see the corporate world going for Windows 8. What I do see though, is the corporate world saying we have our XP and 7 Licenses and our software licenses, so we are going to stay right where we are. Then the hardware manufactures would have a market left for the older versions and so would we. Prices will be higher because the market is smaller, but we would still be able to get what we want.

How ever this ends up shaking out, I think we can say good bye to cheap computers. The prices are going to go up and we will be stuck with it.

I fear that your analysis is on the money: computers are going to rise in price as they become more of a specialized or "niche" product and tablets take over the low/consumer end.

The only imaginable ray of hope I see in such a development is that eventually Microsoft will feel secure enough about Windows 8 to give buyers a choice of UI. One of the major factors for forcing Metro on every new system was said to be their desire to jumpstart the market for Metro apps so that developers would get on board. As they feel better about that thanks to (presumed) success in the consumer sector, but with business customers still resisting downgrading to Win8, maybe they'll finally start offering that choice in a year or two or three.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

HalloweenDocument12, on 18 February 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

bpalone, on 18 February 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

How ever this ends up shaking out, I think we can say good bye to cheap computers. The prices are going to go up and we will be stuck with it.

Is the target audience of your post (this site) buying cheap computers?

I'm not sure who @bpalone had in mind, but <raising hand> I confess to buying some cheap computers in my time.

One of my best purchases was a quad-core AMD system by H-P just about two years ago, which we are using as a DVR for cable TV via Windows Media Center (and it's contributing spare CPU cycles to a DC project). Cost just over $400 back then and it's not exactly doing simplistic, mass-market functions.

Although in the last few years I've learned how to tinker with the insides of a PC, I've never built my own system. But I never say never...

--JorgeA

[ciHnoN]

Unrelated but very related... http://channel9.msdn...spended-my-blog ...WordPress shuts down his blog without any reason or warning.

In the walled-garden dream world of Apple, Microsoft and most likely Google... how long before such things happen to small guys trying to become a big player?

I'm a bit busy to write a long post but I hope someone does! haha... All these so called "app stores" make me sick. They not only take 30% of your profits, they also take away your freedom and will control you. Perhaps not now because they are not big enough... but just watch and see.

Amazing how people after all the bad monopolistic behaviours all these big corps do, Microsoft AND the others... they still allow them to be controlled by these corps by using their "stores". How hard is it to setup a website? Really.

Brave new world they said... well, it doesn't mean a brave new BETTER world... or atleast... not for us.

[JorgeA]

ciHnoN, on 18 February 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Unrelated but very related... http://channel9.msdn...spended-my-blog ...WordPress shuts down his blog without any reason or warning.

Ahh, the wonders of automated enforcement -- like red-light cameras that give YOU the ticket even if the driver is actually a thief who took your car.

Brave New World indeed. To mix authors, even Orwell couldn't have dreamed this up.

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 18 February 2013 - 08:00 PM

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

HalloweenDocument12, on 18 February 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Some people are of the opinion that computers are unrealistically cheap and have been for years, and we're seeing the results via OEMs considering leaving the market. This can actually be a good thing, even though prices rise. I'm thinking of the RAM market "crash" of 2001 where weaker vendors with lower quality products left a flooded market. Of course, price fixing via cartel was involved here, too, so it's not the purest example.

Prices are cheap because of everyone jumping on China and others to capitalize on slave labor, allowing them to maintain or lower prices but increase profit ( like Microsoft removing the MPEG decoders from Windows and still charging the same price and pocketing the difference ). This business model proves P.T. Barnum right, there is truly a sucker born every minute. But they are near absolute bottom now because at some point the device costs more to stock, package, advertise and ship than the customer actually pays in cash.

Long before we even had this slave labor there was a clear linear or even exponential rise in consumer value over time, mostly due to Moore's law for microprocessors and its relations with HDD density and RAM speed and other things ( while Windows mostly crept forward at a snail's pace ). Pretty much for two and half unbroken decades an average system was like $2000 USA and that price first bought a PC1, then an XT, then an AT, etc right up into the Pentium 4 era. Later they would throw in the printer or something, but the expense was very consistent while the power dramatically increased. As the east opened up and their regimes figured out they could pacify their restless natives by offering them up as minimum wage workers ( but at early 20th century standards ) the race to the bottom quickly began with all of our "patriotic" companies hiring and expanding over there and laying off over here. This IMHO caused the downward price spiral of the past 5 years as they competed with each other but still pocketing most of the difference, which is why we still see huge profitably of these companies in an economy that is in the toilet. If China ever went on strike, and it held for a quarter or two, most of the entire western economies would simply collapse.

But this has really nothing to do now with the current price spike since October from Windows 8 however. This I believe is directly from Microsoft still squeezing all their captive monopoly channels for all their worth, and simultaneously urging them to add in touchscreens ( which were at the very least in short supply ) to justify the increase. It is a bit of a Hail Mary pass if you ask me, as the consumers are now getting picky and more frugal. So this is another cash-grab, they are "getting it while the going's good". The problem with wishing for and justifying higher prices ( see Thurrott ) is that the corporate bean counters will never do anything except what is easy, what adds only to profit, and what pleases Wall Street or shareholders. Since their goals are "profitably" and "growth" rather than "quality" or "satisfaction", we know what we can expect. Consumer value and quality are not even on the list anymore. The higher price difference does not go to hire local jobs here or to purchase better parts, in fact they are still only going to buy the cheapest available. It is simply tweaking the spreadsheet to bump of the profit side of the ledger, and there are only a couple of ways to do that, and only the easy ones are on their agenda, and most importantly they are mostly used up now ( well unless factories start going up in rural Africa, and we can literally get back to where we started with slave labor ).

We once had what we called the DotCom bubble. We are now in the end-stages of the computer and related bubble, or better yet: the "slave labor prolonged computer and related bubble", and it is going to blow. The companies are just sucking in every drop of cash they can, while they can. Presently there are many premium items being bought for obscene prices, like $800 cellphones, but they are disguised in subsidy and this is the only way it could still happen in the current economy. The carriers buy them by the boatload and then must bleed the cash from somewhere, and here in the USA we see it play out firsthand where only a decade ago a phone bill was $20 a month ( so was cable ) but now people see $100 or more. This model will also collapse as waves of dirt cheap cellphones get shipped and eventually the phony subsidy model gets exposed to Joe Schmo as the scam that it is and he just stops playing ( Microsoft was way late to this scam ). This phony "subsidy" model ( like a "car lease" or home "rent to own" ) which allows devices to be sold at great profit also extends to corporate who also buy boatloads of computers and related devices at ridiculous prices ( considering the bulk ) and if they ever get frugal ( since they pass it along disguised in their products ), every company that drinks at the corporate trough will implode. This will occur precisely because the corporate directors and bean-counters have simply run out of easy ways to boost profit while keeping expenses the same or lower. Watch for layoffs and cut employee benefits as the leading indicator, and ignore the Wall Street talking heads who always cheer these moves. I expect a chain-reaction and who knows, maybe even a depression similar to the 1930's or 1890's or 1870's.

Microsoft's cloud Plan A is their only idea to survive by the coming apocalypse, and want to do so by plugging themselves directly into the bank accounts of the sheeple to make periodic withdrawals while the "automatic updates" shift some very minor changes down to their device ( in itself a joke, practically a placebo, add some templates and clipart to Office and tweak a few obvious things so the sheeple says "wow, what a great free update" to justify this phony model ). In short, do the least effort possible to continually get paid. Wait until the sheeple catch on.

So to summarize, and to paraphrase Thurrott, "the lower prices are indeed unrealistic", but clearly NOT for the reasons he thinks. In his shallow manner of thinking prices will simply rise and everyone is happy ( except for the careful consumer of course ). But what will actually happen is that the lumbering behemoth Wall Street darlings will once again just pocket the difference. Then we end up with the absolute worse of all worlds - slave labor building cheap devices sold for high prices and the cash goes straight into the profit column of those lumbering behemoths. I'd say 3 to 5 years tops and the DJIA is at 8000 again. Maybe sooner. The cash flushed companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft are gonna need it ( as an aside, just imagine if Microsoft had bought Yahoo for $45 billion, their little party would now be over ).

[HalloweenDocument12]

It's funny you mentioned TV. When I mentioned that a $125 price hike may be enough to collapse the PC market, I could hear the objection, if not here but elsewhere, that people pay that every month so they'd be willing to pay that for a computer, too. Well, like you said, due to economic factors, I think people are starting to wise up over the value (or lack thereof) of TV. And this is independent of the upcoming MLB renewal, which may spike rates to levels simply unaffordable to the average household.